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NH ALLENSTOWN JANE DOES: 1 Adult & 3 Children, F, found in metal drum - Nov 1985 *1 still unidentified*

Discussion in 'Unidentified 1980 to 1989' started by Takeitfromme, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    patsella, truthbtold, fran and 4 others like this.
  2. RedRose

    RedRose Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the Video Advocate! Now that was an interesting and enlightening video. No lids for the oil drums. Big age gap between the ten and four year old. I did not know they were dismembered. One sick puppy. Kudos to the Private Citizen!!:)
     
  3. DaisyChains

    DaisyChains Bronze Member

    What on earth could make someone murder all of these beautiful ones? I just don't get what this woman and three girls could have done to make the murderer want to kill all of them. I mean typically when a man kills his entire family he has enough guilt to off himself, too.

    Is the murderer so pathologically selfish that he just wanted to start a new life and end his old one?

    Was the woman threatening to out him for abuse of the children and he decided they all needed to be silenced for good?

    Someone who would dismember a child's body IMHO would probably do other horrible things to a child when the child was living. Idk I think it is significant all of the victims are female. Might have a sick pedophile situation going on... A man who has no respect for women/girls, whether related to him by blood or not.

    This is just too sad :(
     
    truthbtold, spike, Advocate and 2 others like this.
  4. RedRose

    RedRose Well-Known Member

    Let's take the male husband/partner out of the equation for a minute. The 4 females lived in the area for approx 3 months. Someone had to have seen the woman at least, even if the children did not attend school nor go outside, a neighbour should have heard children playing and laughing, three and four year old's are not quiet, even if abused the human spirit prevails in happy laughing moments. And has not spoken up? Why? I must look up the distance from the trailer park to Bear Park. To dismember someone there is a lot of blood, to clean up if the deed was done at the trailer park. Unless dismembered on something which does not leak and disposable. And no chain saw was heard? If a chain saw was used. Unless bodies and barrels, bags and chain saw was loaded into a vehicle and taken to the spot where they were dismembered after the murders? That takes planning, or last minute thought of what now after the murders. Was this plastic bags used? I take it due to time, weather, any evidence was degraded. And yet no animals tried to get to the decomposing bodies? Why? I'm running with murdered then put into a vehicle along with necessities, barrel bag, dismembering tool....well hold on a minute. How would the perp know that the bodies would not fully fit into the barrels without dismemberment? Thinking out loud.
     
  5. RedRose

    RedRose Well-Known Member

    Okay I am still thinking out loud. I have learned long ago to not become fixated on one person/perp. I have been blind-sided to many times by doing so. I realize that the lady who has poured her energy into solving this case knows more than what we do. But I am going to flip the coin and look at it in a different way. How many pedos do we know who have killed a whole family? To my knowledge none. Anybody out there know of a whole family killed by a pedo? We know pedo's have methology (sp). This man who died while in prison due to molestation of children. He lived in the trailer park. Where Low income people lived. Kept his tool shed locked. If I lived in a trailer park where known criminals lived, substance abuser's etc, I would keep my shed door locked also. Had a chain saw and access to metal drums. If the lady and her girls lived in the trailer park and then disappeared. Would not the person renting the trailer to the family not say that to the police when they came a knocking? That puts the rentor of the trailer out of pocket and becomes annoyed and would remember that incident, because she/he had to find someone else to rent to. Also what about belongings? Beds, even if they were only mattresses, a TV. chairs a table, clothing and personnel effects. What happened to all of their 'stuff'? Even if they lived somewhere else, what happened to their stuff? The owner of the trailer/home could have illegally sold their belongings to recoup back rent, but don't people in trailer parks, like apt buildings in cities talk? Yes they do and by word of mouth it would have got about that a family of four up and left. A family of four females up and leaving would be remembered, so I think. And then forgotten, until a Police Officer comes a knocking.
    So I am going to run with a husband/partner who can easily, that day or week or even month or months pack everything up and move on saying that his family was visiting a relative or whatever and he was going to join them, with out suspicion. Still thinking.
     
  6. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    Good points made here! It might be more likely that this is the kind of person who would commit familicide, perhaps?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familicide
     
  7. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    Did they say all of them were dismembered? I would think the woman and oldest girl, the 2 little ones wouldn't have to be to fit in the 55 gallon drums. I don't recall there not being lids... Going to have to go back and watch again because I was cooking while it was on.

    He most likely did the dismembering in the bath tub. If I was going to murder someone I sure wouldn't stick around but you never know, maybe he did; when questioned what happened to his wife or girl friend and kids, he said they left. I would assume that if he told someone that they wouldn't question it because they knew he was abusive or nasty. As for the oldest girl, I believe LE were checking school records, I'm not sure if they were successful; if not it's possible they moved there when school was ending, they hadn't had time to register her and if they did, the school didn't question why she never showed up, they probably just tossed her registration away.

    I'm a victim of domestic violence, some men flip for the stupidest reasons. He could be a drinker who's jealous, after all she was a good looking woman. Been there, done that. Possible he hit her, the oldest got mad, said something which pissed him off even more, he ended up killing both of them, then the babies :( Such an evil monster.

    Everything wasn't connected back then because they only had one drum. Had they found both, he may not have gotten away with it

    John List murdered his whole family in Westfield NJ. Wiki
     
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  8. DaisyChains

    DaisyChains Bronze Member

    Sorry you endured familial abuse growing up @Advocate. Love you. Thanks for being brave enough to share that with us.

    I agree that maybe had both drums been found initially proper leads could have been followed. Its difficult to follow leads with only one half of the victims/story
     
    spike likes this.
  9. spike

    spike Bronze Member

    :therethere:
     
  10. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    One could wonder why he had to dismember them when he should have been able to fit the 10 year old and 4 year old then the mom with the baby. I think a lot of thought was given to put the mom with her 1st child together in one 55 gallon drum. He then put the 2 little ones which are most likely 1/2 sisters that share a father. It makes me think he cared about his 2 daughters being together. I wonder if he regretted killing the 2 little ones after it was over.

    With the oldest kid having possible double piercings in both ears, I wonder if her ears were still some what partially intact when found.
    NamUs link
     
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  11. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    Excellent piece! I finally got a chance to watch. I think it's interesting that the barrels were found so far apart?

    And how is it that the girl who is a more distant relative doesn't have her mom looking for her? Was the UID mom caring for a relative's child who died or is in prison?
     
    spike likes this.
  12. Takeitfromme

    Takeitfromme Professional Journalist/News Reporter

    i did see this episode and was glad to see Jeff Strezlin from the AG's office speak to the show about it. This is a case I tend to keep on top of because first of all the girls, but Allenstown is only about a half hour drive from me.
     
  13. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    What do you think about the trailer park theory?
     
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  14. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    The barrels were originally together, at one time kids moved one of them. LE didn't search to see if there were more when they found the 1st one.

    Its possible mom is or was looking for her; but since he's most likely the father, back then LE would have told her he can because he's her parent and to go to family court with issues. Mom is most likely American Indian, so that may play a part too.

    I think she's on the money with it. Someone had actually left a name on the blog as a comment saying the guy, his GF and 3 kids lived there; the guy used to work carnivals. One day they we're all gone. Blogger said she turned the ip in, I'm not sure what came of it. I dont think its the same guy she named on TV
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
  15. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    I never saw the name that was left, the blogger removed it.
     
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  16. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    We're going to be doing a media push to try to identify the middle child. I wrote a note that can be shared on FB. We're trying to target Native Americans. This is what I have so far. Next chance I have I'll add the single recon pics to the other 3 females. Please let me know if anyone has any additions or wording changes. I originally had most likely taken from her Native mother/ relative by her Caucasian father/ relative because LE had said the middle child was not maternally related to the others, but it's possible she was a half-sister of the other girl(s). I personally feel this is a father abduction/ murder; especially since I feel the mom being placed with the oldest girl when she may have fit with the baby. I feel he placed the 2 girls together because they were sisters. It now reads most likely taken from her Native American parent/ relative by her Caucasian parent/ relative. I'd like to keep this as simple as possible to get the most mileage from it. I feel people get more interested/ involved if they can quickly read it, then links to more info.

    Link to the note - Do you recognize this possibly Native American/ Caucasian Female Aged 3 to 4 Years Old Born Between 1976 and 1980?

    She was possibly born in NORTH OR SOUTH DAKOTA, NEBRASKA OR UPPER NEW YORK, VERMONT OR MASSACHUSETTS - Please see the areas in the red boxes on the isotope testing map below. She was most likely taken from her Native American parent/ relative by her Caucasian parent/ relative before 1980. Read below to find out more
     
  17. Sunburst

    Sunburst Bronze Member

    Just a random thought...... The 1980 Winter Olympics were held in New York, at Lake Placid. Authorities believe the barrels could have been dumped as early as 1980.....and that death may have occurred as early as 1977.....Preparing for the Olympics takes a couple of years, building the Olympic Village that houses the athletes, the sport venues that had to be constructed or rehabbed from when Lake Placid last hosted the Olympics, etc. Lake Placid had also hosted the Olympics decades ago. Plenty of access to barrels and construction tools during the building........
    Side note: Immediately after the Olympics ended, the athletes dorms in Olympic Village were turned into a federal prison known as FCI Ray Brook. (BBM)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Correctional_Institution,_Ray_Brook

    I can see someone sent to prison, gets out, blames "Mom" ( even though she may not have done anything) for whatever reason for sending him there, and kills all 4 as revenge;then dumps the barrels in another state.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  18. Advocate

    Advocate Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

    I made a custom URL for their album on Never Forget Me - http://fbl.me/allenstownNHDoes

    Good thought about the barrels. 1977 is off the table as they've narrowed down the date more. From the social media push note - VICTIM 3 - MIDDLE AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 3-4 years old. Approximate Height 3'8". Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown; slightly wavy, 5 inches long. She had an overbite that might have been noticeable. Estimated Date of Death: "They were killed at the same time, and this time period has now been narrowed down to sometime between 1980 and 1984" Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on May 9, 2000 in in Allenstown, NH
     
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  19. DaisyChains

    DaisyChains Bronze Member

    The comanche i believe are the most prevalent Native American community in the Dakotas. studied them a bit in college for my anthropology dissertation. might be a good start?
     
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  20. DaisyChains

    DaisyChains Bronze Member

    those deep set eyes on the body that was found to be likely the matriarch - she has a very distinct look. those eyes are very deep set. long faced. imo the guy liked these sort of featured that were present in the jane doe and also in many native american peoples. cheek bones and deep set eyes and long face. I resemble the woman and I have lots of native american in my background. this guy prefers a specific look... not saying native american, but those similar features in the face shape, eye positioning, and cheeks. dimensional facial structure. of course this is JUST MY OPINION.
     
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