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OH WEST CHESTER JANE DOE, F, 35-60, found in woods in West Chester, OH - March 2015 *Darlene Norcross*

Discussion in 'Identified!' started by Kimster, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The woman's skull was found by some teenagers in the woods off Tylersville Road back in March.

    Officials also posted images of items they found with the woman's remains. Those included a pair of size 12 Faded Glory jeans, a horizontally striped T-shirt, prescription glasses, a distinctive SAS black shoe for people who walk a lot or are on their feet all day, a fanny pack with items including lip balm, scissors, a lighter and a Swiss army knife inside a denim bag.

    “Family members, if you have a missing person, please, please report them. Talk to your local police department, they can put them in NAMUS. They can collect DNA from family members that then will eventually be matched to the DNA on this unidentified person,” Mannix said.

    Investigators believe the woman was between 35 and 60 years old, was between 5-foot-3 and 5-foot-9 in height with brown hair with some gray in it.

    The coroner said she had full upper and lower dentures.

    Much more at link: http://www.wlwt.com/news/remains-found-in-west-chester-woods-now-have-face/33353988


    http://www.crimewatchers.net/forum/...-tylersville-rd-in-may-15-do-you-know-me.311/
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    GarAndMo49, spike, Scorpio and 5 others like this.
  2. Summer_breeze

    Summer_breeze Blowing through the Jasmine in my mind

    https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/case#/13635

    Case Report - NamUs UP # 13635
    Case Information

    Status Unidentified
    Case number 15-174
    Date found March 07, 2015 00:00
    Date created March 12, 2015 12:39
    Date last modified February 09, 2016 21:25
    Investigating agency
    date QA reviewed

    Local Contact (ME/C or Other)
    Name Lisa Mannix
    Agency Butler Cnty Coroners Ofc
    Phone 513-785-5860
    Case Manager
    Name Elizabeth Murray
    Phone 513.244.4948

    Demographics
    Estimated age Adult - Pre 70
    Minimum age 35 years
    Maximum age 60 years
    Race White
    Ethnicity
    Sex Female
    Weight (pounds) , Cannot Estimate
    Height (inches) 66, Estimated
    Body Parts Inventory (Check all that apply)
    All parts recovered
    Head not recovered
    Torso not recovered
    One or more limbs not recovered
    One or both hands not recovered
    Body conditions
    Not recognizable - Near complete or complete skeleton
    Probable year of death 2014 to 2015
    Estimated postmortem interval Months

    Circumstances
    Location Found
    GPS coordinates
    Address 1
    Address 2
    City West Chester
    State Ohio
    Zip code
    County Butler
    Circumstances
    Skeletal remains discovered in wooded location. Note, this individual had "expensive and unique dental prosthetic appliances".

    Physical
    Hair color Brown
    Head hair
    Hair color was medium brown with some gray in it, with strands measuring between 6 and 12 inches in length.
    Body hair
    N/A
    Facial hair
    N/A
    Left eye color Unknown or Missing
    Right eye color Unknown or Missing
    Eye description
    Decomposition precluded eye color assessment.
    No other distinctive body features
    Distinctive features as described below
    Amputations
    Deformities
    Scars and marks
    Tattoos
    Piercings
    Artificial body parts
    and aids
    Finger and toe nails
    Other distinctive
    physical characteristics

    Medical
    Medical implants
    Foreign objects
    Skeletal findings
    Organ absent
    Prior surgery
    Other medical
    information

    Fingerprints
    Status: Fingerprint information is currently not available

    Clothing and Accessories
    No clothing or accessories
    Clothing and accessories are described below
    Clothing on body
    White, short sleeved, pull over shirt with red and blue thin, horizontal stripes. Faded Glory brand blue jeans (size 12 average).
    Clothing with body

    Footwear
    Black SAS brand shoes (see images).
    Jewelry

    Eyewear

    Other items found
    with body
    Items found nearby which may or may not have been associated with this individual include two pair of eyeglasses, gloves, a water bottle and a two-handled blue denim cloth bag. (Some items depicted on the images page.)

    Dental
    Status: Dental information / charting is available and entered

    DNA
    Status: Sample submitted - Tests complete
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2018
  3. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    http://www.wlwt.com/article/coroner...f-remains-found-in-west-chester-woods/3554818

    Coroner releases facial renderings of remains found in West Chester woods
    Woman's bones found by teens in March

    Updated: 11:20 AM EDT Jun 3, 2015

    WEST CHESTER —

    Authorities have a new tool to help find out whose remains were discovered in a wooded area of West Chester.

    The Butler County Coroner’s Office is putting a face to the skeletal remains found in West Chester.

    Butler County Coroner Lisa Mannix said a facial reconstruction expert in Arizona was able to craft digitally reconstructed facial images of what the woman looked like, based on the remains and her biological profile.

    Photos: Items found with remains

    “The goal is to identify this lady, to figure out who she is,” Mannix said. “But to actually put a face to this person helps. It makes it more personal."

    Her office used the woman's biological profile and skeletal remains and then a forensic artist came up with the digital images. Officilas said they've received a handful of tips.

    They’ve posted the images to NamUs or the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System, a national database of missing people.

    The woman's skull was found by some teenagers in the woods off Tylersville Road back in March.

    Officials also posted images of items they found with the woman's remains. Those included a pair of size 12 Faded Glory jeans, a horizontally striped T-shirt, prescription glasses, a distinctive SAS black shoe for people who walk a lot or are on their feet all day, a fanny pack with items including lip balm, scissors, a lighter and a Swiss army knife inside a denim bag.

    “Family members, if you have a missing person, please, please report them. Talk to your local police department, they can put them in NAMUS. They can collect DNA from family members that then will eventually be matched to the DNA on this unidentified person,” Mannix said.

    Investigators believe the woman was between 35 and 60 years old, was between 5-foot-3 and 5-foot-9 in height with brown hair with some gray in it.

    The coroner said she had full upper and lower dentures.

    The coroner believes the woman's body had been in the woods for six months and was in the West Chester area in the fall of 2014.

    The cause of death is not known yet but the coroner said her toxicology report came back negative.

    “I’m hoping that someone will recognize her and be able to get us headed in a direction that we can identify her and bring closure to a family,” Mannix said.

    The coroner said the woman’s DNA was first processed with the FBI but no hit came back.

    Officials have sent more DNA to be processed at the University of North Texas. Results are expected to take three months.

    Anyone with information is asked to call the Butler County Coroner’s Office at 513-785-5860 or West Chester police at 513-759-7270.
     
    GarAndMo49, spike and Scorpio like this.
  4. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...an-skull-mystery-west-chester-woods/80052714/

    A real life 'Stand by Me' awaits an ending
    Keith BieryGolick , kbierygolick@enquirer.com Published 12:11 p.m. ET March 10, 2016 | Updated 9:14 a.m. ET March 11, 2016

    The three brothers must now deal with the realization that they might never know what happened to the woman whose skull they found. The Enquirer/Keith

    [​IMG]

    Caleb, 16, Parker, 15, and Cole, 13, point out the spot near Gregory Creek where they found a human skull.(Photo: The Enquirer/Kareem Elgazzar)

    WEST CHESTER TWP. - Ten minutes passed before anyone spoke.

    The boys sat in a circle near their snow-covered driveway. Their parents weren't home.

    A few minutes earlier, they were hiking in the woods near their backyard. Now, the three young brothers sat a few feet away from a dead woman's skull.

    No skin. No blood. Just bone.

    No one knew what to do. One of the boys, who noticed the skull's shiny top peaking out of the snow, picked it up like a bowling ball and brought it back to their house.

    No one spoke because they were too busy thinking.

    Did someone dump it out of a car?

    Are there more bodies out there?

    It was March 7, 2015. Parker Wilhelm, a teenager, eventually broke the silence.

    "What if it's real?"

    His brothers answered him with more silence.

    "What are we going to do?"

    [​IMG]

    Cole, the youngest boy, didn't want to think about it anymore. He stood up and started running around.

    Soon, his brothers joined him and played in the snow like nothing happened.

    Another 20 minutes passed before their mother returned. Liza Wilhelm walked into the house with her hands full of groceries. She was on the phone with her daughter.

    Parker showed her the skull, which had no lower jaw or teeth. Wilhelm's daughter, still on the phone, told her the situation sounded like the opening of a television show. But it's stranger than that. This is the real-life version of "Stand By Me", except the ending hasn't been written yet.

    The family called police after Parker's father, Randy Wilhelm, got home.

    "Are you sure it's human?" a police dispatcher asked him.

    Randy Wilhelm paused. He knew the answer, but took his time and considered the question again.

    He said his family would be relieved if it wasn't.

    Could dentures solve the mystery?

    Police and other law enforcement officials descended into the woods. Soon, police vehicles lined the Cobbler's Creek subdivision.

    As Randy Wilhelm remembers it, seemingly every police officer on duty came to look at the skull.

    Then, something happened he will never forget.

    Police Lt. Barry Walker, then commander of West Chester's patrol section, pulled up to their house in an SUV. He walked over to the skull, knelt down and started praying.

    “For the rest of them, it was really cool,” said Randy Wilhelm. “For him, it was (about how) somebody died here.”

    Over the next several days, officials recovered more than 200 bones near Gregory Creek. Butler County Coroner Dr. Lisa Mannix says officials will likely never know how the woman died.

    [​IMG]

    "You have very little to go on," said Mannix.

    But that doesn't mean they aren't trying.

    From the recovered bones, officials at a forensic lab in Arizona put together a facial reconstruction of what the woman might have looked like.

    Investigators know the woman was between 35 and 60 years old. They know she had naturally brown hair with some strands of gray in it. They know she stood about 5 feet 6 inches tall. They know she had expensive and unusual dentures.
     
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  5. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    continued

    [​IMG]

    Mannix speculated she was not from the area and was likely homeless or staying in the woods for shelter. Officials believe she died in the fall or early winter last year.

    Speaking from a conference room in her Hamilton office, Mannix's voice sped up when talking about the progress they've made. The coroner has enlisted the help of a renowned forensic anthropologist and entered data into a national missing-person database run by the U.S. Department of Justice.

    The false teeth this woman had are so rare, Mannix says, only 272 dental providers in the country have purchased matching ones.

    So she sent a letter at the end of January to all 272 of them. Only 40 providers have responded so far. She is in the process of following up with the others.

    In a case without many leads, the teeth may be the best chance at solving her mystery.

    'It seems like it was two weeks ago'

    If that happens, and the woman is identified, Liza Wilhelm wants her family to have somewhere to go.

    She planted flowers where the woman's skeleton was once scattered on a hill. She picked daffodils because they are known to spread.

    Eventually, she wants to put a cross where her kids found the skull, which is still marked with a green stick, a few yards away from a rusty refrigerator and empty Pepsi can.

    [​IMG]

    "It would break my heart if she was never identified," Liza Wilhelm said.

    That is why she agreed to speak to The Enquirer. She wants to do everything she can to help this woman, who she will never know but always be connected to.

    Her boys never had nightmares. But in the days following their discovery, Cole couldn't get the skull out of his head. Parker thought about it every day for several weeks.

    "It seems like it was two weeks ago," said Parker.

    Cole interrupted and said it feels like it hasn't even been that long. That's because, for the boys, Gregory Creek is a place to escape.

    In the summer, Parker and his brothers shoot pellet guns. In the winter, they skate in boots on frozen water.

    They still do those things. But it's different now.

    Parker thinks about the skull every time he and his brothers go back.

    Now, they don't think about the time his brother Caleb got stuck in the mud -- and a friend had to literally shovel him out. They think about death.

    A year ago, West Chester police stationed a cruiser near the woods for several days by the family's home. It didn't matter. They slept with their outside lights on.

    They don't do that anymore. In fact, they've all been into the woods since then. They know who they are.

    They just don't know who she is.

    [​IMG]

    HOW TO HELP:

    - Call the Butler County Coroner's Office at 513-785-5860 or email coronertips@butlercountyohio.org.

    - Visit the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System website and consider entering information into the database. There are currently about 40,000 unidentified human remains cases in the United States, according to the organization.
     
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  6. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...ns/Doe-(33)&classname=Custom.ColdCaseDatabase

    2004

    [​IMG]
    • Case number: 2004
    • Incident location: West Chester, Ohio - Butler County
    • Incident date: 3/7/2015
    • Homicide date: Unknown
    • Gender: Female
    • Race/Ethnicity: White
    • Height: 66", Estimated
    • Weight: Unknown
    • Hair color: Brown
    • Eye color: Unknown
    • Law enforcement agency: Butler County Coroner's Office
    Details
    On 03/07/2015, the skeletal remains of a 35-60 year old white female were discovered in a wooded location in West Chester, OH. Hair color was medium brown with some gray in it, with strands measuring between 6 and 12 inches in length. This individual measured approximately 66" in height and was wearing a white, short sleeved, pull over shirt with red and blue thin, horizontal stripes, Faded Glory brand blue jeans (size 12 average), black SAS brand shoes (see images). Items found nearby which may or may not have been associated with this individual include two pair of eyeglasses, gloves, a water bottle and a two-handled blue denim cloth bag. (some items depicted below) This individual had "expensive and unique dental prosthetic appliances". The probable year of death is 2014-2015. Artist's computerized facial reconstruction based on photographs of the skull, by forensic artist Catyana Skory Falsetti.

    Additional pictures
    [​IMG]

    Contact
    Anyone with additional information or questions regarding this case should submit a tip.
     
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  7. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    http://www.journal-news.com/news/remains-found-west-chester-now-have-face/15UWy5jSe0H1sRQsYfcQZP/

    Remains found in West Chester now have face


    BUTLER COUNTY

    DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS WOMAN?

    Anyone with information that may assist in identifying this woman should call West Chester Police at 513-759-7270 or the Butler County Coroner’s Office at 513-785-5860.

    JOHN DOE CASE FROM 1997 REMAINS UNSOLVED

    The woman found in West Chester woods is not the only unidentified person case currently at the Butler County Coroner’s Office.

    On May 18, 1997, a man’s remains were found in the Great Miami River in Fairfield Twp. at the south end of Horseshoe Dam. He remains unidentified, but his information has also been entered since 2008 in NamUS.

    The man is a white male approximately 30 to 60 years old, wearing Structure-brand cut-off blue jean shorts, white jockey shorts, a belt with a gold-colored buckle and a silver-colored necklace with black beads. The man would also have a scar on the inside edge of his right eye from an old facial injury.

    Investigators now have a picture to accompany remains found earlier this year in West Chester Twp.

    The Butler County Coroner’s Office said skeletal remains and a biological profile were used to generate the images of a woman found March 7 by children in a wooded area.

    “They say a picture is worth a thousand words,” Butler County Coroner Dr. Lisa Mannix said. “It does make it more personal. Glasses are just glasses, but looking at a face makes it about a person.”

    The coroner said she is hopeful the image “sparks a memory or a recollection.”

    On March 7, children found a skull in the woods behind their Gregory Creek Lane home in West Chester Twp. Rain and snow made finding additional remains difficult, Mannix said. But when the weather cleared, all of the woman’s remains were collected, along with other items believed to have belonged to her.

    There were no forms of identification with or around the remains. It is believed the woman was in the West Chester Twp. area in late fall 2014, according to the coroner’s office.

    “Jane Doe’s” facial reconstruction images, along with photos of her belongings, are now a part of NamUs (the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), which is a national resource center for missing persons and unidentified decedent records. It is a free online system that can be searched by medical examiners, coroners, law enforcement officials and the general public.

    “At this point, I can’t rule out foul play because we just don’t know what happened. The likelihood of finding out how she died is not good. But it is more important to find out who she is so that a family can have closure,” Mannix told the Journal-News last month.

    If a positive ID is made, Mannix said that will also provide clues about her life that could lead to discovering what happened to her.

    “You know, we think locally. But we have interstates, train tracks and a lot of other things that point to this not being a local,” she said.

    After the remains were found, the coroner’s office developed a biological profile and determined the remains were those of a white woman between the ages of 35 and 60, who stood between 5-foot-3 and 5-foot-9 inches tall.

    Strands of hair, medium brown with some gray, were found with the skull. And the woman had full upper and lower dentures. She was wearing Faded Glory-brand jeans, size 12, and a medium white, short-sleeved, pullover shirt with red and blue horizontal stripes. Prescription glasses and reading glasses were also found near the woman’s skeletal remains.

    Evidence collected in the densely wooded area also suggests the woman was wearing black SAS brand shoes, Mannix said.

    That distinctive brand of shoe is popular among people who walk a lot or are on their feet all day at work, she said. The black SAS (San Antonio Shoemakers) lace-up shoes were so worn, a size could not be determined, Mannix said.

    A black fanny pack, containing lip balm, a disposable lighter, a small Swiss Army knife and scissors, that is believed to have belonged to the woman, may also be a clue to her identity. The fanny pack was inside a blue denim tote bag.

    The woman’s DNA, taken during a preliminary testing, has been run through the FBI’s Combined DNA Index System with no hit returned. Additional, more detained DNA testing is underway at the University of North Texas, according to the coroner.

    West Chester Police are assisting the coroner’s office with the investigation into “Jane Doe,” according to Chief Joel Herzog.

    Anyone with information that may assist in identifying the woman can call the coroner’s office at 513-785-5860 or West Chester Twp. police at 513-759-7270.



    A digitally created facial reconstruction image of the unidentified woman who was found in March 2015 in West Chester Twp.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    http://www.missingpersonsofamerica....ty-coroner-asks-for-help-identifying-remains/

    Butler County Coroner asks for help identifying remains
    April 18, 2016 Missing Persons Admin Missing Person, missing person Ohio


    [​IMG]

    Back in 2015 three boys came across a human skull while walking behind their home in West Chester Township, Ohio. One of the boys picked up the skull not quite sure it was real and took it home. Their dad, Randy Wilhelm called the police. Over the next several days, officials recovered more than 200 bones near Gregory Creek. Although the police had little to go on they did have the jaw bone that showed a set of false teeth so rare that only 272 providers have purchased them. Even though a letter was sent to all of the providers at this time only 40 have responded.

    [​IMG]

    As of 2016, the remains have not been identified and the Butler County Coroner’s office has released photos of clothing found near the remains showing a black boot, jeans and a shirt and a blue tote back along with dental X-rays in hopes that someone might recognize them.

    They believe the woman was between 35 and 60 years old and she had brown hair with gray in it. They estimated she was around 5’6” tall. The biggest clue is the very expensive and unusual dentures. The woman’s cause of death has not been determined but there is no evidence to suggest foul play, Schneider said.

    The West Chester Jane Doe is referenced as VICTIM 15-00761

    If you have any information, call the Butler County Coroner’s Office at 513-785-5860 or email coronertips@butlercountyohio.org.
     
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  9. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    [​IMG]


    West Chester Township, Ohio
     
    spike likes this.
  10. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    upload_2017-4-20_15-42-50.png


    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
    Violent Criminal Apprehension Program (ViCAP)

    Found: March 7, 2015 in a wooded area off Tylersville Road in West Chester, Ohio
    Race: White
    Sex: Female
    Age: 35 – 60 (estimated)
    Height: 5’3” – 5’9” (approximately)
    Weight: Unknown
    Hair: Brown/Gray (6 – 12 inches long)
    Eyes: Unknown
    Clothing: Bobby Brooks brand white shirt with red and blue horizontal stripes, Faded Glory blue jeans, SAS “Freetime Women’s Tripad” brand black shoes. A fanny pack and a two-handled blue denim cloth bag were also recovered.
    Dental: Upper dentures without implants, lower dentures had mandibular implants. Decedent had severe bony atrophy in the maxilla and mandible. This was an expensive, unique dental prosthetic.

    ViCAP ALERT UNIDENTIFIED REMAINS – West Chester, Ohio
    On Saturday, March 7, 2015, a human skull was found by children in a wooded area in West Chester, Ohio. Evidence collected in the area suggests that the individual was wearing a Bobby Brooks brand white, short sleeved pull-over shirt with red and blue horizontal stripes, Faded Glory brand blue jeans (size 12), SAS brand black-laced shoes. A blue denim cloth bag with a black fanny pack containing a pair of scissors, a knife, a lighter and cotton candy lip gloss was also recovered. Items found nearby which may be associated with the victim include: two pairs of eyeglasses (prescription and reading) and a pair of gloves. This individual most likely died within the past six months.
    To provide or request additional information, please contact Detective Travis Oakes, West Chester Police Department, Butler County Ohio, at (513)-759-7267, or toakes@westchesteroh.org or FBI ViCAP at (800) 634-4097 or vicap@leo.gov.

    Contact ViCAP for information on how your agency can obtain access to the ViCAP Web National Crime Database.
    Attention: Homicide, Missing Persons and Crime Analysis Units

    vicap@leo.gov.
    Contact ViCAP for information on how your agency
     
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  12. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

  13. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

  14. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    It isn't just anyone who can afford that kind of dental work. This woman probably wasn't a transient. Who was she?
     
  15. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member


    http://www.missingpersonsofamerica....ty-coroner-asks-for-help-identifying-remains/

    Although the police had little to go on they did have the jaw bone that showed a set of false teeth so rare that only 272 providers have purchased them. Even though a letter was sent to all of the providers at this time only 40 have responded.



    I agree, @Kimster. The photographs appear to show some kind of implants. If only 272 providers have used that dental procedure, I just can't understand why it hasn't been possible to identify this woman. Only 40 providers responded to the request for information, but I have to wonder if there have been follow up attempts.
     
  16. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    Why wouldn't more want to respond? My gosh, it gets infuriating sometimes. :gaah:
     
  17. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member


    I don't understand why they haven't responded. Most of the implants are done by prosthodontists. These dentists are even more educated than a regular dentist. Surely, they understand the importance of identifying dental work.
     
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  18. Akoya

    Akoya Bronze Member

    If Ohio would screen for isotopes, maybe they could then resend the dental photographs to specific regions.
     
    spike, Scorpio and Kimster like this.
  19. SheWhoMustNotBeNamed

    SheWhoMustNotBeNamed Administrator Staff Member

    This woman is up next for DNA Doe Project, provided they can get enough DNA.
    Hopeful that she will have her identity back soon!

    https://www.facebook.com/DNADoeProject/


    Forensic breakthrough could help local scientists ID missing woman

    She’s a mother with shoulder length brown hair, but her name, where she's from and how she died is a Butler County mystery.

    Now, a group of forensic genealogists are hoping to crack the case, similar to how the suspected “Golden State Killer” was identified.



    Expensive dental work can sometimes lead to an identification. It did not.

    "I thought, that should help, some unique dental implants… how does someone have such expensive dental work and nobody's looking for her?" said Butler County Coroner Dr. Lisa Mannix, who is working with Mt. St. Joseph University's Dr. Elizabeth Murray to help identify her.



    "Obviously we don't know who she is. She has a life history, a story. She has pregnancy scars children in her life,” said Dr. Murray.



    "We've taken a lot of steps to identify her and haven't, so let's take this next one, a little unconventional,” said Dr. Mannix.

    A little unconventional is the DNA Doe Project. It’s a nonprofit group of genealogists who help identify the unidentified dead. The cofounders are Colleen Fitzpatrick and Margaret Press.

    "We were dismissed by everyone. The biggest lesson was persistence, because a year and three months ago it couldn't be done. We looked at each other and said, why not?" said Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick of the DNA Doe Project.

    Why not use publicly available DNA data to find unknown branches of a family tree, the way adoptees find birth parents?

    Now, Fitzpatrick and a team of forensic genealogists will try to identify Butler County's “Jane Doe”.

    http://local12.com/news/local/breakthrough-could-help-local-scientists-id-missing-woman
     
    GarAndMo49, spike, Scorpio and 3 others like this.
  20. Kimster

    Kimster Director Staff Member

    I love seeing different agencies use this new technique to identify the unidentified! What an exciting time we're in.
     
    GarAndMo49, Scorpio, Uno2Much and 4 others like this.

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