LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Olenna]

link for forensic expert who determined BG's height from video (vs RA) (differential in stature).

 

[GrandmaBear]

for what it's worth ... with a nod to context being EVERYTHING:

Maybeeeeee ... The Dept. Natural Resources guy was provided (by LE/investigators) with info/context/ BG guy-suspect physical description that focused his attention ...

A physical description of the BG from LE might have eliminated the possibility that a 5'5" chubby dude could be an actual person of interest.
So when interviewing RA ... DNR guy may have pegged RA as not matching the suspect description. To DNR's mind (perhaps) RA was one of a number of park-going witnesses who stepped forward as LE reached out to potential witnesses.

Maybe but the three girls sure don't fit the description either but his follow up note is to find out who they are. The entire thing sounds iffy or too casual, meets him at a grocery store and so on. Recording is lost but he claims there was one. Allen sure lucked out for over five years with the fact this guy was "reached" or was his "interviewer". Did he only call the tip line and not actually go in/come forward? Sounds like it. HONESTLY having a DNR guy follow up on TIPS in a DOUBLE MURDER case seems a bit uhm risky just on its face. A TIP from someone PRESENT at the murder site. I mean site as in the trail, bridge, etc.

I also heard his name was entered somehow into the "system" as I think Richard Whitehurst and that the Whitehurst was actually his STREET name/residence address.

How is it so many errors were made with the one man who now we know allegedly murdered these girls providing him freedom for five plus years and no follow up, interest, never comes up again, etc.?

This man needs to be brought front and center and questioned. This seems to be too many mistakes and errors to not wonder about any relationship with Allen. I'm not saying there is one, just saying it's all a bit much to be believed, the number of errors and devastating effects those errors had.

IF he eliminated him in his head thinking he did not fit the description, I find that just as outrageous and error prone. I mean this was way early on when I'd think that was all being debated yet and analysis on the video and details still being done, no? If he or they didn't even know yet who the three girls were well then it was all still in its infancy.

Was he being sent out on all the tips? Or local ones? Did Allen know this? Small town after all. Were they drinking buddies? Opponents on pool leagues? Half in jest but just saying you don't deputize a parks guy to investigate during a double murder... I guess if Barney Fife is all ya have well then... Oh but that wasn't the case, we had CBI involved etc...

 

[GrandmaBear]

Interesting to see folks sharing their reasonable doubt thought process.
Thinking what the heck; I'll share where I fall on the spectrum at this juncture pre-trial...

IMO, a non-granular summary of Q's and D's (Doubts):

Doubt in the investigative process itself. Doubt in the local pushback/rejection of FBI investigation assistance to speed up that process. Doubt in the sudden, years late "discovery" of a "clerical error" as to RA - who came forward immediately to voluntarily put himself at the bridge at the right time? (The clown show of that omission is patently absurd and throws doubt on the entire investigative process, IMO.) There's been one theory worked all along; the phone-video capture of BG = a video of the likley BG the killer walking the girls "down the hill". Does RA physically match the forensically calculated BG the killer height estimates? Is RA clothing vs BG clothing vs witness bloody clothing reports vs scene fibers ... conclusive? Doubt in ballistics evidence. Is there doubt in the voice forensics? Is there conclusive DNA evidence?

Point being, without the jailhouse "confession" - the context of which we don't understand yet - there's plenty for defense to poke at in order to create reasonable doubt.

Not a minor area of doubt to eliminate: Is the in-prison "confession" legit? Was it coerced by abusive prison environment/conditions, by psych considerations such as prescribed meds, stress, lack of sleep, confusion? Any of these conditions make the confession worthy of being ruled out of consideration. (Confessions under duress ... have been retracted - and thrown out - in many many other cases.)

Yeah, all you state is right on, they can use all of that to poke holes although at the moment they chose the O route. I guess first they need something to attempt to get the search warrant thrown out as they ARE concerned with the bullet casing but I wonder if there's more that's of concern there in what was found... We wouldn't know of course...

Back to your point though, certainly all that can be used to attempt reasonable doubt but it still doesn't take away Allen placing himself there, how he was dressed, the bullet casing and all of it. Because of all that and then adding in his OWN confessions, the defense HAS to create a blizzard of other stuff and distraction as to what or who else even in fantasy may have done this, simultaneously trying to get the search warrant thrown out with the same bizarre blizzard of O stuff.

What it boils down to to me is the normal reasonable doubt you mention in this post (video fitting physically to Allen and normal things a defense would argue or poke holes in) isn't enough in their opinion and shows me they are very concerned about the results of the search warrant. Now it is a no brainer that could all be about the casing, the one thing we know of tying Allen to the actual murder spot BUT I wonder if there is more they found... It's been years but still... Souvenirs? Clothing? Spots in vehicle testing positive? Murder weapon?

That DNR guy gave Allen YEARS to change phones, get rid of evidence and computers, for memories to fade and for LE to be able to go in when all is fresh and he was likely sill scrambling to cover up.

Somewhat off topic but I'd like to know what Allen's wife said. I'd like to know his work schedule that day. When he got home was wife home? Daughter? How was he? What was he wearing? How was he acting? Did they sit down to dinner? Or was no one home? Did the participate in the search? Did wife and Allen have romantic plans for V Day? Did she find Allen all of a sudden was doing laundry and washing stuff in the kitchen sink, never having done such before? Lol but not. I want this kind of detail. Not going to get it any time soon of course but...

The other thing is this many years later, there is no going back and seeing if he stopped at Walmart first, did anyone see him anywhere else that day--work, the gas station, the bar? When? There is likely NO finding that out now.

I could go on but lucky for all my time is limited to spend much of it on any one thing... Or case. Or my own fires.

 

[GrandmaBear]

here's a few folks who have the same consternation and questions I have ... - "HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?" - what have ya got on RA ...??

no dna, no electronic data evidence, no gps, no phone stuff. it's a circumstantial case. there seems to be enough info out that ... now we know.

Also Delphi police admit the case is still "open". Why is the case still "open"?

I only wish I had time to watch and read what you've shared. So I am responding without having done so.

People would yell if they said the case was closed imo. He isn't convicted and you keep on investigating if anything new comes up whether for or against him, etc. That isn't one bit odd to me and it seems a bit ridiculous if anyone is making a thing about that. I'm sure they'd love more things on Allen or even if any proof the Os did this or any other crimes. You know like their vehicle GPS leading to meet Allen at the trails that day (sarcasm, not towards you). It should and would be open.

And I disagree that we know all. We still wouldn't know how the girls died but for the defense and other details they publicly and in attempt to make a huge splash outed which did and caused EXACTLY what they wanted. They had no reason imo to put in some of what they did. THEY are trying to change public opinion and try by public opinion, not by the court.

I have no idea what if anything more the prosecution has on Allen, none of us do, BUT it does not mean defense shared all. IF something truly ties to Allen beyond what we know, they sure aren't going to share that but they sure want that search warrant ruled against.... And needed something HUGE and blown up and involving the public to attempt it likely because they know chances are slim. What ELSE are they concerned about with it.... Is it only the casing?

And of course as often is the case, the prosecution can't say and defense isn't going to name things found against their client, they will purposely leave that out of course.

I'd like to check out the channel you shared, not sure if I will get time, but I disagree with coming down on LE saying the case is still open. It SHOULD be, it is active, the prosecution of it is active, they are continuing to investigate and should be. Heck they lost years on Allen alone and investigating him. I don't believe a case closed until conviction and sentencing.

Sure it has made a big stir but at minimum we still have Allen the only man at the scene boxed into the right area at the scene and his bullet casing at the MURDER scene. HIs confessions and his placing himself at the site. I hope there is more but they only started on it all about the time of the warrant and arrest as far as we know.

The dust is settling but some are taking off with it. Dust storm, blizzard, whatever one wants to call what the defense tried to do.

It is unfortunate we have a bunch of midwestern idiots (and I am midwestern so I can say that although I am not going to compare my area to these down there) that STUPIDLY wore patches on their uniform, some that did their own side investigation I guess in LE and a DNR guy who doesn't know which end is up and is no investigator.

None of that actually surprises me. And it was STUPID and the defense is taking off with it and trying to make it into more. I seriously doubt they were practicing anything but do understand how it looks.

 

[GrandmaBear]

link for forensic expert who determined BG's height from video (vs RA) (differential in stature).

So the alternative would be they tried to frame a man who doesn't fit in height? Who places himself there?? Why if they were going to do that wouldn't they pick someone who fit? So what would that mean? "They" are all so smart (the perps) they had Allen claim to be there back when because it was really Ron Logan or an Odinist and they knew if it ever came to be, the height wouldn't fit and it would throw off the entire case?

Personally I haven't ruled out more than one. But Allen isn't innocent, he is part of it if two. Or more. Imo.

For me, I've never understood why people are so certain that rural folks only take trails and can't come in from other sides. They must be city folk who never in their life as a child or adult were in the woods and just explored. I have always thought even before the arrest that the guy on the bridge could have been "driving" them down to someone/s who were waiting. And then they have them cornered or shoot. I am sure SOME here know what a deer drive is in the midwest? I have seen such just about every single year of my life, not so much these past years but well familiar with it.

And Abby had horns... SO THEY SAY. The DEFENSE. Just a little deer?

This case is enough and always has been to drive one nuts. I have to stop for now. I got sucked in here this a.m. I miss having time to discuss, watch, keep up, etc.

 

[GrandmaBear]

link for forensic expert who determined BG's height from video (vs RA) (differential in stature).

Why when I go to reply to this, does this come up? Because the Tweet did't say sh*t about height, it was about experts with no detail. I am not a Twitter or X person but how weird. It was generally about experts that I was going to reply but then it changes to this.

Anywhooo. Beyond me.

I will just stay in the somewhat sane lane of saying why would the State be going to any other experts if they have solid ones? What, go to a paid defense expert whore? Not even sure what is being got at here.

In our case, our experts were PROFESSIONALS that were sooooo good at what they did in their careers, real life, every day doctors, forensic coroner, etc. REAL experts. The defense had experts that should have been in prison for some of what they'd done in their pasts. They had to dig far and wide for them and one was from out of country and they ended up not using him after paying his whore fee to fly him in as they knew I suspect he wasn['t going to "fly" on the stand with the jury...

Anyhow, I think it is about experts, hit reply and it is about height with a link to forensic expert about height which isn't a hot link.

So if about height, sigh, who knows? His height was two different ones on arrest or just after. Maybe the State hasn't even addressed it or worried about it because it is not the issue being made.

I would add, the snaky expert they didn't use in our case was a KNOWN expert who had testified many times (for pay to say whatever needed, it is why they had to go so far to find one) Doesn't mean juries won't buy it. But hey they always have to worry if the prosecution has done their job his snaky ways will come out on cross exam.

But hey, yeah, there is a lot of debate about height, I won't deny it. Maybe Allen was at the bottom of the hill... Or height "experts" are just simply wrong. His height was reported as two different things right at the outset too.

I HAVE got to get out of here.

Lol. Frustrating as heck but not dull I guess...

 

[Imamazed]

Why is the case still "open"?

Wouldn't the case stay open until Richard Allen or someone is convicted of the murder? I mean if he's found not guilty the case stays open? Right?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Wouldn't the case stay open until Richard Allen or someone is convicted of the murder? I mean if he's found not guilty the case stays open? Right?

I think so. I think the same ones out there who go on about them not saying closed would raise holy heck if they said it was.

They should always be open to new info and for sure up until conviction and sentencing undoubtedly.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

MSN

Well then.

Guard signed an affidavit swearing to his odonism-symbol-identifying-patch worn in support of his norse pagan heathenry beliefs "that are NOT odonism" ... so ... all's well in solitary, clearly.

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

This whole patch thing confuses me. These are correctional employees who wear uniforms. Since when are they allowed to decorate them?

So these patches COULD be associated with Odinism, but they're not. Here's my question: What do they mean? How did they know they COULD be associated with Odinism? If I was wearing a patch, ON MY UNIFORM, I'd know what it means. Why didn't anyone question them the first day they put them on?

This makes Allen's story A LOT more believable. Allen said that "Two Guards" were wearing Odinism patches, but NO, NO, NO, they aren't Odinism patches.

 

[GrandmaBear]

So these patches COULD be associated with Odinism, but they're not. Here's my question: What do they mean? How did they know they COULD be associated with Odinism? If I was wearing a patch, ON MY UNIFORM, I'd know what it means. Why didn't anyone question them the first day they put them on?

This makes Allen's story A LOT more believable. Allen said that "Two Guards" were wearing Odinism patches, but NO, NO, NO, they aren't Odinism patches.

ALL of this stuff is unfortunate but what the defense has made it into and how far they have taken it is ridiculous and would take such a conspiracy it isn't even funny. And then to believe A supposed white supremacy group both attacks and murders two white girls from their own area and now are terrorizing their own white pharmacist local guy is RIDICULOUS.

They took what these guys were STUPID enough to wear and spun it into this big blown again, conspiracy.

Where pray tell is all the evidence of numerous people in this short period of time at the murder scene?

I AGREE this patch wearing should have NEVER went on. I'd like to know the guards ages, not that it matters but I'd be curious.

But let's be real. Allen is using this and unfortunately they gave him the patches to use. If they were practicing or true Odinists, they have a prison FULL of other races and murders to come down on/go after.

This is having JUST the effect that was intended. Your doubts, everyone's doubts.

The men shouldn't be just removing their patches, they should be out of a job and uniform as should their higher ups who let such be worn.

It's an absolute shame how justice for these girls is being turned into a circus side show.

I'd believe there was more than one pedo there first. Or for me it would have to be that Allen, Kline, Logan one or all had to be Odinists too.

Because honestly how'd they come in, why no trace and how did they leave and why did no one see a group?

Yes, the badge sh*t is b.s. However I know a lot fo people who wear football jerseys who can't describe a single game nor do they ever watch them, know how the game is played, etc. Not an apt comparison but I think you get my gist.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Wouldn't the case stay open until Richard Allen or someone is convicted of the murder? I mean if he's found not guilty the case stays open? Right?

Nope, The WM3 ARE INNOCENT, but nobody has any interest in pursuing the case. There is another suspect, however nobody has any interest in pursuing it. I don't know of a single case where the defendant is found not guilty and the police and Public Defender decide to look into it further.

There was one guy who was PROVEN to be innocent, EVERYBODY who could release him thought it was a slam dunk that the guy was innocent, including the judge. IIRC, his DNA didn't match the crime scene. The prosecutor argued IN COURT that the guy should remain behind bars. When the judge asked him why, he didn't have a good answer. The wrongfully convicted guy was set free by the judge.

Prosecutors HATE to admit they made a mistake. It could have to do with elections. "This DA prosecuted an innocent man." or something like that there, I don't know. Prosecutors will say the jury got it wrong. The guy they prosecuted DID IT there is nobody else to check out.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

ALL of this stuff is unfortunate but what the defense has made it into and how far they have taken it is ridiculous and would take such a conspiracy it isn't even funny. And then to believe A supposed white supremacy group both attacks and murders two white girls from their own area and now are terrorizing their own white pharmacist local guy is RIDICULOUS.

They took what these guys were STUPID enough to wear and spun it into this big blown again, conspiracy.

Where pray tell is all the evidence of numerous people in this short period of time at the murder scene?

I AGREE this patch wearing should have NEVER went on. I'd like to know the guards ages, not that it matters but I'd be curious.

But let's be real. Allen is using his and unfortunately they gave him the patches to use. If they were practicing or true Odinists, they have a prison FULL of other races and murders to come down on/go after.

This is having JUST the effect that was intended. Your doubts, everyone's doubts.

The men shouldn't be removing their patches, they should be out of a job as should their higher ups who let such be worn.

It's an absolute shame how justice for these girls is being turned into a circus side show.

I'd believe there was more than one pedo there first. Or for me it would have to be that Allen, Kline, Logan one or all had to be Odinists too.

Because honestly how'd they come in, why no trace and how did they leave and why did no one see a group?

Yes, the badge sh*t is b.s. However I know a lot fo people who wear football jerseys who can't describe a single game nor do they ever watch them, know how the game is played, etc. Not an apt comparison but I think you get my gist.

The evidence is those patches.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Nope, The WM3 ARE INNOCENT, but nobody has any interest in pursuing the case. There is another suspect, however nobody has any interest in pursuing it. I don't know of a single case where the defendant is found not guilty and the police and Public Defender decide to look into it further.

There was one guy who was PROVEN to be innocent, EVERYBODY who could release him thought it was a slam dunk that the guy was innocent, including the judge. IIRC, his DNA didn't match the crime scene. The prosecutor argued IN COURT that the guy should remain behind bars. When the judge asked him why, he didn't have a good answer. The wrongfully convicted guy was set free by the judge.

Prosecutors HATE to admit they made a mistake. It could have to do with elections. "This DA prosecuted an innocent man." or something like that there, I don't know. Prosecutors will say the jury got it wrong. The guy they prosecuted DID IT there is nobody else to check out.

I think it is also much like in a hospital a doctor can't admit a mistake and the board won't let him. It is liability, a negative reputation and a big payout. A county or city isn't going to do it either, etc. Not saying it is all of it but I think it is a big part of it as well.

This isn't that case though. Just saying.

 

[Olenna]

Wouldn't the case stay open until Richard Allen or someone is convicted of the murder? I mean if he's found not guilty the case stays open? Right?

Ima!!! longtime no see!! Hope you and your family are well!

I think it was used in the context of they are still currently looking at ... an old list of POIs?

I only wish I had time to watch and read what you've shared. So I am responding without having done so.

People would yell if they said the case was closed imo. He isn't convicted and you keep on investigating if anything new comes up whether for or against him, etc. That isn't one bit odd to me and it seems a bit ridiculous if anyone is making a thing about that. I'm sure they'd love more things on Allen or even if any proof the Os did this or any other crimes. You know like their vehicle GPS leading to meet Allen at the trails that day (sarcasm, not towards you). It should and would be open.

And I disagree that we know all. We still wouldn't know how the girls died but for the defense and other details they publicly and in attempt to make a huge splash outed which did and caused EXACTLY what they wanted. They had no reason imo to put in some of what they did. THEY are trying to change public opinion and try by public opinion, not by the court.

I have no idea what if anything more the prosecution has on Allen, none of us do, BUT it does not mean defense shared all. IF something truly ties to Allen beyond what we know, they sure aren't going to share that but they sure want that search warrant ruled against.... And needed something HUGE and blown up and involving the public to attempt it likely because they know chances are slim. What ELSE are they concerned about with it.... Is it only the casing?

And of course as often is the case, the prosecution can't say and defense isn't going to name things found against their client, they will purposely leave that out of course.

I'd like to check out the channel you shared, not sure if I will get time, but I disagree with coming down on LE saying the case is still open. It SHOULD be, it is active, the prosecution of it is active, they are continuing to investigate and should be. Heck they lost years on Allen alone and investigating him. I don't believe a case closed until conviction and sentencing.

Sure it has made a big stir but at minimum we still have Allen the only man at the scene boxed into the right area at the scene and his bullet casing at the MURDER scene. HIs confessions and his placing himself at the site. I hope there is more but they only started on it all about the time of the warrant and arrest as far as we know.

The dust is settling but some are taking off with it. Dust storm, blizzard, whatever one wants to call what the defense tried to do.

It is unfortunate we have a bunch of midwestern idiots (and I am midwestern so I can say that although I am not going to compare my area to these down there) that STUPIDLY wore patches on their uniform, some that did their own side investigation I guess in LE and a DNR guy who doesn't know which end is up and is no investigator.

None of that actually surprises me. And it was STUPID and the defense is taking off with it and trying to make it into more. I seriously doubt they were practicing anything but do understand how it looks.

Thanks Grandma ... that is a long you-tube "podcast" but I found it very interesting ... if/when folks get a chance to listen while they exercise or cook or do some housekeeping ... maybe consider having a listen. These folks (lawyers and the very experienced investigative crime reporter/producer and creator of "Down the Hill" are well-versed in reading criminal motions. I'll give a bit of a rundown for ya, but listen when/if you can.

They agree that the defense's discussion and expert (same as LE's expert) don't suggest an ACTUAL sacrifice/ritual of odinism but a staging by someone familiar w/ the symbols - much like the white nationalists stealing odinistic symbols for their cute little secret wink-wink gang patches (the prison guards).

They agree few experts think the bullet casing will hold up with a jury once experts provide their opinion on that - one issue being that a gun wasn't the murder weapon; another being that LE itself has that type of gun, that would leave same. They also felt - from the murder site photos - LE/investigators blew it from the very start. LE found the girls relatively quickly (a great thing in this business - a relatively fresh site rich with evidence). Photos show us ... abundance of evidence at the site. They took pictures of blood stamp on a tree and never took the tree as evidence to the lab. They took pictures of the branches, but never took them in to evidence. Who takes pictures of evidence without taking the evidence for documentation and study? These things the murderer clearly put their hands on ... they left in the woods. Treating the site in this unprofessional manner ... explains lack of physical evidence and ... makes the case fully circumstantial.

Defense has all of RA's phones since he ever had phones b/c RA never threw one out. They have all his computers covering the timeframe. Apparently, nothing on the electronic data was worthy of being put into evidence. Not even his search terms. They have the FAMOUS BG video and the 2 completely different composites - and now that's become problematic in that RA is 5' 4" ... forensic experts would have to agree that the BG is easily 5'4 ... when expert forensics had already agreed that BG was RL's height (closer to 6 ft).

The parked car make/model ... is also in question. They have RA coming forward timely like other concerned citizens who were at the park - and - when he came forward - his walking route described - did NOT include the bridge. RA does not put himself at the scene of the crime; not even the bridge.

The criminal lawyers on the podcast get the impression that the prosecutor McLeland (maybe being overworked) did not review all the evidence prior to handing it over... And they all agree that the leads investigation was the picture of distraction, inexplicably dropping so many leads being investigated - replacing and cancelling follow-thru without reason, failures to finish the work required to be able to say we've exhausted those particular leads; and that those leads - based on the info currently available - should still be followed to their end. Another story (as to investigative process) develops that raises the questions of competence, possibly intentional incompetence, and corruption.

 

[Olenna]

Why when I go to reply to this, does this come up? Because the Tweet did't say sh*t about height, it was about experts with no detail. I am not a Twitter or X person but how weird. It was generally about experts that I was going to reply but then it changes to this.

Anywhooo. Beyond me.

I will just stay in the somewhat sane lane of saying why would the State be going to any other experts if they have solid ones? What, go to a paid defense expert whore? Not even sure what is being got at here.

In our case, our experts were PROFESSIONALS that were sooooo good at what they did in their careers, real life, every day doctors, forensic coroner, etc. REAL experts. The defense had experts that should have been in prison for some of what they'd done in their pasts. They had to dig far and wide for them and one was from out of country and they ended up not using him after paying his whore fee to fly him in as they knew I suspect he wasn['t going to "fly" on the stand with the jury...

Anyhow, I think it is about experts, hit reply and it is about height with a link to forensic expert about height which isn't a hot link.

So if about height, sigh, who knows? His height was two different ones on arrest or just after. Maybe the State hasn't even addressed it or worried about it because it is not the issue being made.

I would add, the snaky expert they didn't use in our case was a KNOWN expert who had testified many times (for pay to say whatever needed, it is why they had to go so far to find one) Doesn't mean juries won't buy it. But hey they always have to worry if the prosecution has done their job his snaky ways will come out on cross exam.

But hey, yeah, there is a lot of debate about height, I won't deny it. Maybe Allen was at the bottom of the hill... Or height "experts" are just simply wrong. His height was reported as two different things right at the outset too.

I HAVE got to get out of here.

Lol. Frustrating as heck but not dull I guess...

Oh! So sorry if the link wasn't the link I intended to provide. ... I should have checked it after posting. I will check it and - if it's not right - I'll place the correct link (s) with regard to the expert in forensics that LE hired to estimate BG's height ... and her report ... and her current understanding that RA doesn't = BG per forensics ... on this thread later today.

 

[Olenna]

ALL of this stuff is unfortunate but what the defense has made it into and how far they have taken it is ridiculous and would take such a conspiracy it isn't even funny. And then to believe A supposed white supremacy group both attacks and murders two white girls from their own area and now are terrorizing their own white pharmacist local guy is RIDICULOUS.

They took what these guys were STUPID enough to wear and spun it into this big blown again, conspiracy.

Where pray tell is all the evidence of numerous people in this short period of time at the murder scene?

I AGREE this patch wearing should have NEVER went on. I'd like to know the guards ages, not that it matters but I'd be curious.

But let's be real. Allen is using this and unfortunately they gave him the patches to use. If they were practicing or true Odinists, they have a prison FULL of other races and murders to come down on/go after.

This is having JUST the effect that was intended. Your doubts, everyone's doubts.

The men shouldn't be just removing their patches, they should be out of a job and uniform as should their higher ups who let such be worn.

It's an absolute shame how justice for these girls is being turned into a circus side show.

I'd believe there was more than one pedo there first. Or for me it would have to be that Allen, Kline, Logan one or all had to be Odinists too.

Because honestly how'd they come in, why no trace and how did they leave and why did no one see a group?

Yes, the badge sh*t is b.s. However I know a lot fo people who wear football jerseys who can't describe a single game nor do they ever watch them, know how the game is played, etc. Not an apt comparison but I think you get my gist.

Agree with you that the guards should be disciplined ... and ... that the warden's response is very protective of them.

Regardless, we have guards w/ patches are wearing the symbols of White Nationalists (symbols hijacked from odinism). Per defense's loooong argument on this topic ... the guards tased RA twice for not "cooperating with their orders". RA is this little dude - kept separately from gen-pop. WHAT THE HECK do they need to tase him twice for? Not explained in papers - I dunno but one would think the tasing report is in the papers somewhere? I don't have time to go through them...

Perhaps b/c they are indeed white nationalist members, or perhaps it just makes their job easier, makes them seem sympathetic to the prison population, or even lends some protection to them from violent inmates. I'm not sure why anyone would want to wear blatant racist patches on their sleeve while serving as a prison officer where there's a great deal of racial diversity.

In reading about this particular prison, I've learned that the wings are segregated by race. So perhaps the guards feel the patches help them get more cooperation with the inmate population they are assigned to ... but ... in fact ... both guards have admitted that they are "pagan practitioners of "Norse Heathenry". (Which, I'm sorry - and no offense to practicing pagans - but in this particular uniformed situation ... is entirely ridiculous ... and I CANNOT believe these guards. Either they are white nationalists wearing the patches to work - or - because they work with white nationalist prisoners, they got creative and felt the patches would protect them/make their work easier/smoother. The latter making them - perhaps not actual white nationalists, but, actually lacking good judgement. IMO.)

 

[Olenna]

link for forensic expert who determined BG's height from video (vs RA) (differential in stature).

Just FYI:

@GrandmaBear couldn't find the info easily so here's alternative directions to same thread on twitter, in thread reader app form:

Thread by @The_unraveling8 on Thread Reader App

 

[Tresir]

Just getting up to date and in doing so came across this article about the guards and their patches. Unbelievable. Plus they tasered him twice.

(Same link Olenna has posted but have C/P the text below.)

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

New court documents were filed Tuesday by both the prosecutor and defense attorneys for Richard Allen.

www.wndu.com

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Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches​

By 16 News Now
Published: Oct. 10, 2023 at 8:42 PM BST


DELPHI, Ind. (WNDU/WTHR) - New court documents were filed Tuesday by both the prosecutor and defense attorneys for the man accused of murdering two teenage girls in Delphi more than six years ago.
According to our sister station WTHR, the documents are about the defense’s filing outlining why they believe Abby Williams and Libby German were “ritualistically sacrificed” by members of a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group called Odinism, and not by their client Richard Allen.
Allen was arrested last October and charged with the February 2017 murders of Abby and Libby. The case has garnered national attention since their bodies were found near the Delphi Monon High Bridge on Feb. 14, 2017 — one day after they went missing.
In a filing last month, defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi claim three members of law enforcement investigated a possible connection to Odinists as being involved in the murders. Prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeland later disputed those claims, saying they are “colorful, dramatic and highly unprofessional.”

Correctional officers’ claims​

According to documents filed on Tuesday, the prosecutor spoke with two correctional officers at the Westville Correctional Facility, where Allen is currently house, who the defense team claims have ties to Odinism.
Both correctional officers reportedly denied practicing Odinism but admitted to wearing patches on their uniforms that can be — but they said are not — associated with Odinism. The correctional officers allegedly said they stopped wearing the patches on their uniforms last month when they were asked to remove them.
One of the correctional officers reportedly said Norse Paganism Heathenry is his practicing religion. Both correctional officers also claimed they were not part of a cult or a radical hate group.
According to the documents, both correctional officers said they’ve never threatened Allen and never had a one-on-one conversation with Allen about Odinism. One of the correctional officers reportedly told prosecutors he went “above and beyond to not use any kind of force on (Allen), even though there have been times when use of force was justified by standard operating procedures.”

That correctional officer told prosecutors that Allen was tased twice between May 9 and May 25 because he did not comply with the officers’ orders.

Warden’s claims​

According to WTHR, the prosecutor also spoke with the acting warden of the Westville Correctional Facility, who said correctional officers were allowed to wear any patches on their vests until the allegations made by the defense team.
The warden also reportedly said the facility offers religious services if there are at least five people who practice the religion in the complex — and the facility has never held services related to Odism. The warden also reportedly said none of the “very few inmates” that practice Odinism are housed with or next to Allen.
NOTE: The correctional officers and warden have not been arrested or charged in connection to the Delphi murders case. Therefore, they are not being identified.

Prosecutor’s response to defense’s motion to transfer Allen​

Allen’s defense team previously filed an emergency motion to move their client to a new jail in April, which was denied. Defense attorneys then filed a motion to reconsider during a hearing in May, which the court denied again.
The prosecutor says Allen is being treated more favorably than other inmates housed at the Westville Correctional Facility,
The defense’s latest motion accuses two correctional officers at Westville Correctional Facility of “unjust and inhuman” treatment against Allen, which the prosecutor denies.
According to the prosecutor, Allen would be placed in the same kind of holding cell he is in now if he were to be moved to the Cass County Jail. The prosecutor also claims the Indiana Department of Correction is more equipped to transport Allen back and forth to court dates to keep him safe and ensure he makes it to all future hearings.

Prosecutor’s response to defense’s motion for discovery deadline​

According to WTHR, the state believes it has turned over everything in their possession and has no objection to a discovery deadline. The state said the defense’s theory that the state is intentionally withholding evidence because it is exculpatory is not true.
The prosecutor also claims the defense team hasn’t turned over any pieces of evidence from their investigation.
According to the prosecutor, when the state filed charges against Allen, the discovery was not in a format that could easily be provided to the defense, which the prosecutor clarified as all the paper documents had to be copied and scanned, and all the external hard drives and reports from law enforcement had to be collected.
The state is asking the court to require the defense team to turn over any evidence they get and not dump all the evidence on the state on Nov. 1 at 11:59 p.m.
Allen is set to go to trial in January 2024.
Copyright 2023 WNDU. All rights reserved.

 

[Guess Who]

MSN

Well then.

Guard signed an affidavit swearing to his odonism-symbol-identifying-patch worn in support of his norse pagan heathenry beliefs "that are NOT odonism" ... so ... all's well in solitary, clearly.

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

Wearing a patch on your UNIFORM for an organization, but you are not affiliated with that organization????? Yeah, right. That makes no sense. Not buying it. Not buying that they have the wrong guy in custody either. He might not be the only one though and that they definitely need to keep investigating until either others are all cleared or they are charged.

 

[Guess Who]

State claims Richard Allen not in danger despite officers wearing Odinism badges

In Thursday's response, the state said the "colorful and dramatic" request from the defense in not correct and there is no threat to Richard Allen in the Westville Correctional Facility.

www.wrtv.com

I'm still not understanding why they would be allowed to wear anything on their uniform that wasn't sanctioned by their superiors. OR it is sanctioned by their superiors.