This is a general thread for short discussions on very old unsolved cold cases.
Please note that if the case starts an active discussion, moderators may create a new thread highlighting said case.
Historic Unsolved Cold Cases *General Discussion*
- Thread starter Kimster
- Start date
This is a general thread for short discussions on very old unsolved cold cases.
Please note that if the case starts an active discussion, moderators may create a new thread highlighting said case.
Recently I was made aware of this killer who was never found! His old house burned to the ground last summer. Some say it was haunted.
His name was Billy Crapo. He is known to be the last murderer in Cerro Gordo, California which was known to be the most lawless town in California at one time. My dad used to own ham radio translators on one of the hills nearby, so I've been familiar with the town all my life.
Here's an article about the crime:
It was probably a relatively quiet December day, with only the noise of limited mining activities to break the silence. The wind would have been cold and brisk, and there may even have been traces of snow on the ground. Henry Boland was on his way to the post office where he had been working only weeks before. John Dunphy was the new postmaster in his place, and they could shoot the breeze while he picked up his mail, if indeed there was any. With him was his friend John Thomas.
Sixty feet from the post office, was William “Billy” Crapo’s house. Billy was a well educated French Canadian, now the oldest resident in the faded camp. He was well respected as a civil engineer, and had spent many years working in the mines. For a brief time in 1880, when the camp was still hanging on to life, he was postmaster, as Henry Boland had more recently been. Henry and John may have paused for a brief moment before they reached Billy’s house and made note of the political differences that Billy had with Thomas. Even if they didn’t pause, bullets flying from Billy Crapo’s house landed in Henry Boland’s back stopping him dead in his tracks.
A wagon was nearby, and John Thomas tried to get behind it. More bullets began to fly before he could reach it, hitting him in the eye, the right shoulder and the right wrist. After the first shot, John had noticed Billy Crapo standing at the door of his house where the sounds had come from.
Much more is at the above link, including pictures of the area.
Billy Crapo escaped, never to be seen again.
What happened to Billy Crapo?
His name was Billy Crapo. He is known to be the last murderer in Cerro Gordo, California which was known to be the most lawless town in California at one time. My dad used to own ham radio translators on one of the hills nearby, so I've been familiar with the town all my life.
Here's an article about the crime:
It was probably a relatively quiet December day, with only the noise of limited mining activities to break the silence. The wind would have been cold and brisk, and there may even have been traces of snow on the ground. Henry Boland was on his way to the post office where he had been working only weeks before. John Dunphy was the new postmaster in his place, and they could shoot the breeze while he picked up his mail, if indeed there was any. With him was his friend John Thomas.
Sixty feet from the post office, was William “Billy” Crapo’s house. Billy was a well educated French Canadian, now the oldest resident in the faded camp. He was well respected as a civil engineer, and had spent many years working in the mines. For a brief time in 1880, when the camp was still hanging on to life, he was postmaster, as Henry Boland had more recently been. Henry and John may have paused for a brief moment before they reached Billy’s house and made note of the political differences that Billy had with Thomas. Even if they didn’t pause, bullets flying from Billy Crapo’s house landed in Henry Boland’s back stopping him dead in his tracks.
A wagon was nearby, and John Thomas tried to get behind it. More bullets began to fly before he could reach it, hitting him in the eye, the right shoulder and the right wrist. After the first shot, John had noticed Billy Crapo standing at the door of his house where the sounds had come from.
Much more is at the above link, including pictures of the area.
Billy Crapo escaped, never to be seen again.
What happened to Billy Crapo?
Mel70
I miss you Oreo.
Wow. Fascinating. I love old stories. And ghost towns. It's like you can feel the people's energy that once lived there. I've heard of "Bodie". Sorry but "Crapo" and "Crapo House" LOL. From The pics Santa lives there part time. Billy would have received "Frontier Justice". Maybe somewhere else he did. I doubt that was his only act of violence. He's certainly paying now. And rightly so.
I've been imaging what might have happened. Did he succumb to the elements? It happened in the dead of winter and it's really cold out there! Or, did he escape and start a new life and was able to stay under the radar?
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True! He might’ve been trying to hide and one of them and succumbed to the elements.
GrandmaBear
Deputized Emu Slayer/Horse Thief Hunter
Interesting. Looks like a new thread. Great idea.
Whatsnext
☮️
At least staying under the radar was alot easier then...
noZme
Well-known member
The Walkers, Clifford "Cliff", 24, and Christine Walker, 23, with their children, Jimmie, 3, and Debbie, 1 1/2, in their front yard four months before they were murdered in their Osprey home on Dec. 19, 1959. The family was killed on December 19, 1959 and the crime remains unsolved.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
The mother of two had been raped, beaten and killed on Dec. 19, 1959, by bullets from two handguns inside her wood frame house in Osprey, a small town 11 miles south of Sarasota. Her husband, ranch hand Cliff Walker, had also been shot beneath the eye so cleanly that his cowboy hat remained on when he fell. Their 3-year-old son, Johnnie, had three bullet holes in his head. Debbie, 23 months old, had also been shot in the head and drowned face down in a bathtub.
A six-decade investigation had stumped a dozen detectives and amassed some 600 suspects. Among them: Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who’d killed another family of four on a Kansas farm a month before in November 1959. They had become the subjects of Truman Capote’s true crime classic, “In Cold Blood.”
On their last day alive, the Walkers had left their small white wood frame house on the southern tip of the 14,000-acre Palmer cattle ranch and drove north to Sarasota, a blossoming waterfront town and the winter headquarters of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. They test drove several cars before picking up feed for the ranch. Then Christine headed home in their Plymouth while Cliff followed with the kids in his work Jeep.
One of Cliff’s co-workers, who came to pick him up to go hog hunting, found them the next morning.
Everyone became a suspect: a neighbor, a cousin, a gas station attendant, Cliff’s fellow ranch hand, even a prison inmate in California who confessed. Dozens of residents handed over their guns so investigators could see if the firing pin left the same marks on the shell casings as those found at the crime scene.
the Walkers would likely be the first to be run through the office’s new CT scanner. It creates a three-dimensional reconstruction of the body’s skeleton and will give investigators a better picture of their injuries.
Clark said their bones would also be sent to a private lab to identify and remove Christine’s and Cliff’s DNA from the mixture found in 2019 in Christine’s underwear. That would allow scientists to tease out the genetic code of the sperm cell so it could be uploaded to common ancestry websites to find relatives. In 2021, detectives in Montana identified the killer of a teenage couple in 1956 with genetic genealogy and a single sperm cell. So it was not inconceivable.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
www.tampabay.com
Mel70
I miss you Oreo.
That's very interesting. I didn't know
Hickok, And Smith were suspected in this. "In Cold Blood". The original with "Robert Blake" I thought wS was very good. I read the book too. I have it. Just a side note. "Phillip Seymour Hoffman" Played "Capote" So well in the movie "Capote". He received an Oscar. Very well deserved. Another tragedy of addiction. Others have played him. But not that well. IMO "Toby Jones" Would be 2nd. Rest in peace, Mr. Hoffman.
Hickok, And Smith were suspected in this. "In Cold Blood". The original with "Robert Blake" I thought wS was very good. I read the book too. I have it. Just a side note. "Phillip Seymour Hoffman" Played "Capote" So well in the movie "Capote". He received an Oscar. Very well deserved. Another tragedy of addiction. Others have played him. But not that well. IMO "Toby Jones" Would be 2nd. Rest in peace, Mr. Hoffman.
Mel70
I miss you Oreo.
Well it doesn’t look too promising. Waterlogged casket. Evidence destroyed. I don't know how people that work with this evidence can be so careless!!! With the "Clutters". "Perry Smith" Refused to allow "Hickok" Rape "Nancy Clutter". And the mother wasn't raped. This crime, The mother was. I don't know what to think about that. Yeah. The safe with soooo much money that you heard about in prison. Those stories are ALWAYS TRUE! No one actually saw a safe or money. BECAUSE IT WASN'T THERE!!! They were killed for $40. $10 per victim. That was when justice was swift. They were dead by 1962 IIRC. They need to go back to that. 15 yrs or more of appeals, Or die on death row. That’s not justice. "Justice delayed. Is justice denied". Repealing the death penalty. Families rarely see justice they are satisfied with.View attachment 19863
The Walkers, Clifford "Cliff", 24, and Christine Walker, 23, with their children, Jimmie, 3, and Debbie, 1 1/2, in their front yard four months before they were murdered in their Osprey home on Dec. 19, 1959. The family was killed on December 19, 1959 and the crime remains unsolved.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
The mother of two had been raped, beaten and killed on Dec. 19, 1959, by bullets from two handguns inside her wood frame house in Osprey, a small town 11 miles south of Sarasota. Her husband, ranch hand Cliff Walker, had also been shot beneath the eye so cleanly that his cowboy hat remained on when he fell. Their 3-year-old son, Johnnie, had three bullet holes in his head. Debbie, 23 months old, had also been shot in the head and drowned face down in a bathtub.
A six-decade investigation had stumped a dozen detectives and amassed some 600 suspects. Among them: Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who’d killed another family of four on a Kansas farm a month before in November 1959. They had become the subjects of Truman Capote’s true crime classic, “In Cold Blood.”
On their last day alive, the Walkers had left their small white wood frame house on the southern tip of the 14,000-acre Palmer cattle ranch and drove north to Sarasota, a blossoming waterfront town and the winter headquarters of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. They test drove several cars before picking up feed for the ranch. Then Christine headed home in their Plymouth while Cliff followed with the kids in his work Jeep.
One of Cliff’s co-workers, who came to pick him up to go hog hunting, found them the next morning.
Everyone became a suspect: a neighbor, a cousin, a gas station attendant, Cliff’s fellow ranch hand, even a prison inmate in California who confessed. Dozens of residents handed over their guns so investigators could see if the firing pin left the same marks on the shell casings as those found at the crime scene.
the Walkers would likely be the first to be run through the office’s new CT scanner. It creates a three-dimensional reconstruction of the body’s skeleton and will give investigators a better picture of their injuries.
Clark said their bones would also be sent to a private lab to identify and remove Christine’s and Cliff’s DNA from the mixture found in 2019 in Christine’s underwear. That would allow scientists to tease out the genetic code of the sperm cell so it could be uploaded to common ancestry websites to find relatives. In 2021, detectives in Montana identified the killer of a teenage couple in 1956 with genetic genealogy and a single sperm cell. So it was not inconceivable.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
We have a new member with us @INVESTIGATION QUEEN who is interested in this case:
rootdigger61.wordpress.com
In some places online, they've been referred to as the "Moonshine Murders". I think one of the missing persons is in her/his ancestral tree, but not sure! I'll let them weigh in.
Brasher Family – Digging in the Dirt: The Search for My Roots
rootdigger61.wordpress.com
In some places online, they've been referred to as the "Moonshine Murders". I think one of the missing persons is in her/his ancestral tree, but not sure! I'll let them weigh in.
GrandmaBear
Deputized Emu Slayer/Horse Thief Hunter
Skimmed a couple past posts when I came in, like this one. What is going on with this? Two PLUS years ago, it was a "could unlock" a mystery, so have they made any progress?View attachment 19863
The Walkers, Clifford "Cliff", 24, and Christine Walker, 23, with their children, Jimmie, 3, and Debbie, 1 1/2, in their front yard four months before they were murdered in their Osprey home on Dec. 19, 1959. The family was killed on December 19, 1959 and the crime remains unsolved.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
The mother of two had been raped, beaten and killed on Dec. 19, 1959, by bullets from two handguns inside her wood frame house in Osprey, a small town 11 miles south of Sarasota. Her husband, ranch hand Cliff Walker, had also been shot beneath the eye so cleanly that his cowboy hat remained on when he fell. Their 3-year-old son, Johnnie, had three bullet holes in his head. Debbie, 23 months old, had also been shot in the head and drowned face down in a bathtub.
A six-decade investigation had stumped a dozen detectives and amassed some 600 suspects. Among them: Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who’d killed another family of four on a Kansas farm a month before in November 1959. They had become the subjects of Truman Capote’s true crime classic, “In Cold Blood.”
On their last day alive, the Walkers had left their small white wood frame house on the southern tip of the 14,000-acre Palmer cattle ranch and drove north to Sarasota, a blossoming waterfront town and the winter headquarters of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. They test drove several cars before picking up feed for the ranch. Then Christine headed home in their Plymouth while Cliff followed with the kids in his work Jeep.
One of Cliff’s co-workers, who came to pick him up to go hog hunting, found them the next morning.
Everyone became a suspect: a neighbor, a cousin, a gas station attendant, Cliff’s fellow ranch hand, even a prison inmate in California who confessed. Dozens of residents handed over their guns so investigators could see if the firing pin left the same marks on the shell casings as those found at the crime scene.
the Walkers would likely be the first to be run through the office’s new CT scanner. It creates a three-dimensional reconstruction of the body’s skeleton and will give investigators a better picture of their injuries.
Clark said their bones would also be sent to a private lab to identify and remove Christine’s and Cliff’s DNA from the mixture found in 2019 in Christine’s underwear. That would allow scientists to tease out the genetic code of the sperm cell so it could be uploaded to common ancestry websites to find relatives. In 2021, detectives in Montana identified the killer of a teenage couple in 1956 with genetic genealogy and a single sperm cell. So it was not inconceivable.
Bodies of murdered couple exhumed in Florida could unlock a 64-year-old mystery
Family members hope that analyzing Christine and Cliff Walker’s bones could determine who killed them and their children in a case linked to the notorious “In Cold Blood” killers.
Guess Who
Well-known member
Interesting!We have a new member with us @INVESTIGATION QUEEN who is interested in this case:
Brasher Family – Digging in the Dirt: The Search for My Roots
In some places online, they've been referred to as the "Moonshine Murders". I think one of the missing persons is in her/his ancestral tree, but not sure! I'll let them weigh in.
GrandmaBear
Deputized Emu Slayer/Horse Thief Hunter
Welcome @INVESTIGATION QUEENWe have a new member with us @INVESTIGATION QUEEN who is interested in this case:
Brasher Family – Digging in the Dirt: The Search for My Roots
In some places online, they've been referred to as the "Moonshine Murders". I think one of the missing persons is in her/his ancestral tree, but not sure! I'll let them weigh in.
I read the link. Interesting to say the least.
So there is no records of death or headstone for either man?. Have you checked things like church records or were there any family bibles handed down through the generations? My sister is very into our family genealogy on both sides and has been for years and it is a passion of hers. She has taken trips over the years to talk to people, not all relatives, sometimes just an old neighbor, etc. who might recall something, or someone in the community that was older and knew "everyone". She has looked through tons of archived church records and found a LOT. Back in the day, births, deaths, marriages were recorded in the churches, and some people recorded their own as well in their Bibles.
I guess I don't know if you are who wrote the things at the link or not but am commenting on what was said there, by whatever relative that might have been.
Also back in the day which I'm sure you know, there were a lot of things hidden and reasons for such. Using my grandpa as an example, he was born in 1894. LIved to be 90 some, 96 maybe, so was on earth through most of the last century. He and my grandma had a solid marriage, church going, well liked, hard working, very good people and no one would ever say otherwise. Raised several kids, one of which was my dad (passed now).
Grandpa though did have a few secrets and grandma and grandpa had one. One was grandpa had a son by another woman and all of their kids never knew this, raised right in the same small community, most people did not know either. We found this out after he died. Another secret was they had always told my eldest uncle, the eldest of their kids that his birthday was on a certain day and on going through their things after grandpa died (grandma had died years before), it was found that they had always lied to him about his birth date. Why? Because he was conceived apparently before they married. Most are gone now and unsure if my mom would recall or know what they found, whether a birth certificate or what, but he went his entire life believing his birthday was on a day that it was not. Maybe a record in a Bible or something I otherwise as if it was a recorded birth and not at home (not sure, may have been at home), I wouldn't think they could use a false birthdate very easily...
Now in our day and time, these didn't shock or hurt anyone too badly and such things aren't all that unusual but back in the day it was absolutely shameful or you were shamed anyhow but people did these things then too--sex before marriage, or even sex with someone you never ended up marrying, a child conceived and hidden.
My point is I guess that not being able to find such things or records or even a different last name could be related to any one of these things, records weren't maintained always or even recorded, births occurred at home, babies were had with the folks not married OR it was covered up and they hastily married, or even another man was found to pretend to be the child's father, him maybe knowing, but the community not knowing, etc.
Or it could be more devious and something criminal was being hidden and identity changed so as not to be located, etc.
I'd note this is even further back than my grandparents if Aphra was married in 1854, that means born even earlier of course, so it's way back. Things would have been even less settled in those days and records even worse I'd think. You are also past where you could talk to anyone who might remember them.
So are both men missing in a way? Meaning you just can't find graves or records on them, dates of death or anything? She also had a number of children die is that correct? Nowadays that alone would be alarming, the children, but back then I'm not as sure. My great grandparents lost two children, healthcare, vaccines, none of it was the same, many died that today would not die. Still, that is quite a number and one or two missing husbands it sounds like? Am I reading it right?
The 1880 census is interesting too as she puts down no husband in the household. It could be Bicknell died and she then remarried later. When is it she died?
I'd say they are two different men and James was a common name, HOWEVER, they both have the same middle initial? Maybe they are one and the same...
Mystery #2, now that one is entirely different. I have to say, intriguing and one can't help but read them and get interested. I don't have any thoughts just yet on #2 as I was still thinking of #1 when I read #2, so I will have to revisit it later, separately I think. I do have a few thoughts or questions but want to think on it more, look at it again. No answers, just interested in knowing more, etc.
Again, welcome!