LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *GUILTY*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

I don't think he wasn't involved at all, just that there are indications that others were involved as well.

I have started to get that, you seem to have most things still possible or even a mixture of different things and as you know, I also haven't ruled out things like the pedo group or KK or RL, etc. I have not added the Os but because I just haven't had enough reason to. My leaning however to 65 to 75 percent is Allen. On his own but with some some connection to the pedo thing, KK or info, etc. from that etc. My next leaning would be KK actually playing a part. Not sure on RL but haven't dismissed. And so on down through those possibilities. However the Os aren't on it. IF RA is a true O and part of and partnered with the people named, THEN I might entertain something or his doing it on his own and indicating the Os but why would he target his own i that were the case? There are many reasons it just doesn't wash for me.

A key thing for me among many others is this just "feels" like and seems to be the sick fantasy of one twisted rapist murderer. And that also fits with one man on the bridge.

Now I guess a group of a bunch of sick pedos COULD come up with some sick fantasy they all contributed to or took part in but you'd have to for one have all willing to go as far as murder and I'm just not sold on the likelihood of that either.

However, as I think Roundpeg said there is something about this entire case that seems off. Maybe it is losing the tip on Allen, maybe it is that for years we entertained so many people and theories, maybe things like the two sketches added to it and the fact LE shares nothing to speak of. Maybe it is the Kline thing. Maybe it is all of it together. Perhaps it is LE themselves in Carroll County and a lack of confidence since they lost the tip and never solved this until how many years later. It makes one wonder about corruption by at least one or two because in LISK the same thing happened and we know there was a corrupt Burke administration...She may mean something completely different but this is what I wonder.

Kline is almost impossible to ignore, far more than the Os. We know all the reasons so I won't repeat them. I feel he has to tie in somehow and at least with this meeting with Libby being seen by or told to RA or something on that order, at minimum. My feeling though is still this is one twisted warped murderer and his personal sick fantasy. But then yes I can waffle and entertain something more with two or three involved BUT it just is harder to buy that they all got together and planned such.

Anyhow, it occurred to me the other day that we pretty much know both RA and RL were big drinkers. We know RA hung in the bars or at least his one. RL may have just drank at home BUT we know about DUIs and so I think it more likely he was a bar type too. I had a few years of my life that I got into such a scene, bar scene. And let me tell you I knew more or less EVERYONE that hung in one or all of them. Of all ages. Similar sized town. I just say this to say it is entirely possible RA and RL knew each other, no matter what RA says. So that was a new thought for me BUT it falls down when thinking anyone sits in a bar and talks murder of young girls to someone they just know as an old drunk.

Maybe that is the problem in this, the key problem, is there is so much and so many thoughts, people and years and things that are not tied up yet that one can think they have it solved but when one thinks well then what about this or that or this person who we still don't know couldn't have, etc., we can question again if there isn't something more... Or someone more. Etc., etc.

FRUSTRATING.

And NOW we have a defense that risked their entire careers and attempted to destroy this case totally. Why??? For fame? For a win? Are we to believe they risked that for one seemingly or supposedly almost unknown man named RA? WTH would they do that? And not one but more than one? What is behind it? Or maybe WHO is? And again why, for some man named RA hardly known to anyone right? Makes no sense. Maybe area politics. Sadly it wouldn't be the first case that such takes over justice in a big case. Hard for us to believe but it is fact.

I also can't help but feel at times someone helped RA with the loss of his "tip" or we are to believe again as has happened in many a case, we have just incompetency in a HUGE case... Such never sits or feels right does it? Not here, not in LISK, not in so many...

Why though would someone do that for him? Again a not well known man right...?

See? Yeah the case can still drive a person nuts.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Watch the video at the time stamp I posted, and the pictures are explained.

First of all, who is he? Never heard of him and I watch YT.

Second of all, I have little time but yes, this IS interesting and the drawings different than what I had seen.

Third, i have went past 20 minutes from your mark and he never show the rune symbols they are supposed to represent, he tells people to go look themselves and I am just snot going to get to doing that.

Next, he says they all did not get the same pictures and he got pictures and just who and how did they disseminate these photos and to HOW many? He got them, never heard of him, MS got them, GH got them, on and on and on.

He says Libby had Abb's blood on her hands but if you go on long enough, he has heard that but can't confirm it he later says.

It is very interesting, I'd recommend watching, however, I don't have time for the whole thing or even as much as I've watched. I have no desire to see the actual pics BUT they are probably the only thing that would give us our own actual interpretation but again don't wish to see them as I'd probably never unsee them and I have enough of bad images in my head from things that have happened in my own life/family. AND a few cases that never had warning on.

He mentions crown or statue of liberty with branches on Abby's head where others said horns. In the first drawings i saw, I thought halo. That fits more with crown than deer horns.

He guarantees no way were they killed where they lay.

Abby still had her shoes on or they were put back on... For me, that one is a puzzler...

He says he no longer has the pics. Why would that be? And that some got different pics, again how were these disseminated, etc. to all these people?

He says DEFINITELY more than one person but that doesn't remove Allen.

It is very interesting, he seems credible and no reason to not think this is what he saw and sees. The drawings are different than what I've seen. However, I don't know him at all, never heard of him and he has under 4,000 subscribers so he is new to the scene and that tells me that most of them may have come from his first launch into this case where all were looking for headlines. 3.75k subscribers and that is TODAY, so he came out of nowhere...? And YET the pics were disseminated to him? Who IS he, I did not watch the begining, I went to 20 minute in as you gave that time to see pics. He claims a source that he says is very credible that Abby had a phone. That's another thing, he doesn't say she has it with her but will guarantee people will jump to that.

He is good and I insitinctually trust what he is saying, however, I did take a look and again under 4k subscribers so new on the scene and again who is he? I am going to doubt with that many subscribers that he is someone you have watched more than one or two of either. Does he have any expertise I am asking or just a good Yter with some good instincts IF all true? A retired cop or an average joe? From the area or nowhere near? Etc.

From what I've seen, I'd recommend others watch, it is interesting and the pics are different and more detailed, still drawn stick figure stuff so no one has to worry about gore.

And since you have more time than I, what O symbols are these drawings to represent? I am not going to get around to looking up O runes I guarantee you. As it is I've lost most of my prep time before work this morning but I did watch something like 25 minutes and may watch more later but he never covered what the sticks represent for symbols other than an asterisk possibly and never explaining that either.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The meanings are explained in the video I posted.

They are now past 20 minutes past your suggested mark explained at all as to which meanings and which symbols as I just said in my previous post.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

They are not past 20 minutes past your suggested mark explained at all as to which meanings and which symbols as I just said in my previous post.

WHAT?????

 

[Cousin Dupree]

The meanings are explained in the video I posted.

I was wrong about the explanations. This is, obviously, a staged positioning. I guess I need an Odinist to explain.

 

[RoundPeg]

@Cousin Dupree I was wrong to say anything about we needed to see those stick drawings. So far, I think LE has managed to track down the people that got the leaked photos and keep them off the internet.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I was wrong about the explanations. This is, obviously, a staged positioning. I guess I need an Odinist to explain.

Are you being facetious or sarcastic here or saying honesty there aren't explanations? He never showed like this branch overlay on either body and then put up an O symbol and what it meant and said now what do you think, does this look like this? If he knows then show them. I am not going to go search some whole thing of O symbols and I don't even know if one O group is the same as the white nationalist highjack group of symbols, etc. and go down that rabbit hole. Either they LOOK like a particular symbol and meaning or COULD be or they don't. You aren't sharing such either if you know?

 

[GrandmaBear]

@Cousin Dupree I was wrong to say anything about we needed to see those stick drawings. So far, I think LE has managed to track down the people that got the leaked photos and keep them off the internet.

Not sure about that, didn't Olenna say the MS went on about how responsible they were but that some other's weren't? Or did that mean just that they reported it (eventuallllyyy) where others didn't...

Even if they haven't been and i have no idea as I didn't go looking for such, they've been sent very widely or so it seems to others or did the original disseminator hit this wide of a group, even one guy that Cuz posted that has only 3K plus followers who would hardly be known?

And the stick figures have more detail now and he was happy to answer questions about their hair (thought Libby's was maybe wet and flat, that some thought her head was shaved, and that Abby's couldn't really be seen. Where Libby had blood and that it was Abby's blood on her hands, etc....

Of course NONE of this can be verified but will likely take off or maybe already has, I wouldn't know.

 

[Tresir]

If that's what you want to believe, then yeah. I see nothing in stick figure drawings beyond randomness. BTW, did you post a link with those? There's nothing gross in stick figure drawings. I'd like to see those posted separately for all to see.

I've seen the stick figure drawings and agree. I've also seen the supposed photo of the tree with the supposed blood on it and cannot see the similarity to the F rune. It just looks like someone wiped their hand or a knife on it.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I've seen the stick figure drawings and agree. I've also seen the supposed photo of the tree with the supposed blood on it and cannot see the similarity to the F rune. It just looks like someone wiped their hand or a knife on it.

There are newer, a bit more detailed stick figure drawings which I did not now until watching what Cuz posted. Another thing the YTer said was that some of these sticks and branches one end was above other sticks and the other end would be below another, etc...

 

[Tresir]

I have started to get that, you seem to have most things still possible or even a mixture of different things and as you know, I also haven't ruled out things like the pedo group or KK or RL, etc. I have not added the Os but because I just haven't had enough reason to. My leaning however to 65 to 75 percent is Allen. On his own but with some some connection to the pedo thing, KK or info, etc. from that etc. My next leaning would be KK actually playing a part. Not sure on RL but haven't dismissed. And so on down through those possibilities. However the Os aren't on it. IF RA is a true O and part of and partnered with the people named, THEN I might entertain something or his doing it on his own and indicating the Os but why would he target his own i that were the case? There are many reasons it just doesn't wash for me.

A key thing for me among many others is this just "feels" like and seems to be the sick fantasy of one twisted rapist murderer. And that also fits with one man on the bridge.

Now I guess a group of a bunch of sick pedos COULD come up with some sick fantasy they all contributed to or took part in but you'd have to for one have all willing to go as far as murder and I'm just not sold on the likelihood of that either.

However, as I think Roundpeg said there is something about this entire case that seems off. Maybe it is losing the tip on Allen, maybe it is that for years we entertained so many people and theories, maybe things like the two sketches added to it and the fact LE shares nothing to speak of. Maybe it is the Kline thing. Maybe it is all of it together. Perhaps it is LE themselves in Carroll County and a lack of confidence since they lost the tip and never solved this until how many years later. It makes one wonder about corruption by at least one or two because in LISK the same thing happened and we know there was a corrupt Burke administration...She may mean something completely different but this is what I wonder.

Kline is almost impossible to ignore, far more than the Os. We know all the reasons so I won't repeat them. I feel he has to tie in somehow and at least with this meeting with Libby being seen by or told to RA or something on that order, at minimum. My feeling though is still this is one twisted warped murderer and his personal sick fantasy. But then yes I can waffle and entertain something more with two or three involved BUT it just is harder to buy that they all got together and planned such.

Anyhow, it occurred to me the other day that we pretty much know both RA and RL were big drinkers. We know RA hung in the bars or at least his one. RL may have just drank at home BUT we know about DUIs and so I think it more likely he was a bar type too. I had a few years of my life that I got into such a scene, bar scene. And let me tell you I knew more or less EVERYONE that hung in one or all of them. Of all ages. Similar sized town. I just say this to say it is entirely possible RA and RL knew each other, no matter what RA says. So that was a new thought for me BUT it falls down when thinking anyone sits in a bar and talks murder of young girls to someone they just know as an old drunk.

Maybe that is the problem in this, the key problem, is there is so much and so many thoughts, people and years and things that are not tied up yet that one can think they have it solved but when one thinks well then what about this or that or this person who we still don't know couldn't have, etc., we can question again if there isn't something more... Or someone more. Etc., etc.

FRUSTRATING.

And NOW we have a defense that risked their entire careers and attempted to destroy this case totally. Why??? For fame? For a win? Are we to believe they risked that for one seemingly or supposedly almost unknown man named RA? WTH would they do that? And not one but more than one? What is behind it? Or maybe WHO is? And again why, for some man named RA hardly known to anyone right? Makes no sense. Maybe area politics. Sadly it wouldn't be the first case that such takes over justice in a big case. Hard for us to believe but it is fact.

I also can't help but feel at times someone helped RA with the loss of his "tip" or we are to believe again as has happened in many a case, we have just incompetency in a HUGE case... Such never sits or feels right does it? Not here, not in LISK, not in so many...

Why though would someone do that for him? Again a not well known man right...?

See? Yeah the case can still drive a person nuts.

RL was a big drinker (and driver) outside of his property - that's what got him in trouble as he was already on probation for it I believe.

Were RL, RA and the K's VInlanders? If they were, I could see a little more credence to the theory, but it just doesn't fit with the motive IMO.

The only thing that could fit was if RA wanted to frame the Vinlanders to throw LE off track, after he had murdered them but I still think the sticks and blood are more likely accidental.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Are you being facetious or sarcastic here or saying honesty there aren't explanations? He never showed like this branch overlay on either body and then put up an O symbol and what it meant and said now what do you think, does this look like this? If he knows then show them. I am not going to go search some whole thing of O symbols and I don't even know if one O group is the same as the white nationalist highjack group of symbols, etc. and go down that rabbit hole. Either they LOOK like a particular symbol and meaning or COULD be or they don't. You aren't sharing such either if you know?

Sarcasm is for the basement.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

If someone thinks that the position of the bodies is not deliberate, I don't get it. There's no way that natural forces are going to set bodies up this way.

 

[Imamazed]

There is someone who saw the actual pictures and then put them into a stick figure.

I think I'll wait for the trial to see the actual pics. I don't like someone interpreting for me. I don't know if RA is the murderer or not, (I tend to think he is) but I don't think others were involved and I'm having a real hard time with this Odimism stuff.

 

[buyerninety]

Tresir said:
"I've seen the stick figure drawings and agree. I've also seen the supposed photo
of the tree with the supposed blood on it and cannot see the similarity to the F rune.
It just looks like someone wiped their hand or a knife on it."

Could be, good idea.

This Odinist theory is nonsense. The (supposed Odinist) persons in the community
who were said to have made admissions about the crime - who are the witnesses
to these admissions - ex-wife & ex-girlfriend, not particularly believable, IMO, even
if some ner'-do-well local boys did do some bragging about crimes (that they didn't
actually commit).
The prison guards with the 'Odin' patch - just thu-, er, lowlevel muscle employees,
who apparently have been instructed to hassle RA (e.g. video his face whilst talking
to his lawyers, so they can try and possibly lip read his words, if RA complains about
his mis-treatment.). Seems to be a real effort made to mentally mess with RA (and
possibly physically torture RA, remember the 'Don't shock me, don't shock me'
comment, & the prisoner who wrote the letter alledging mis-treatment of RA).

I won't be surprized if innocent, weak simp RA is eventually found guilty.

As far as the leaked pictures go, I assume this hollow where the victims were found
had leaves all over the ground, I see the branches as simply placed on the bodies and
some leaves were then scooped up and thrown on the bodies, the branches emplaced
and acting as an attempt to gate the leaves heaped on the bodies, possibly the wind
wasn't so great when this was done, later sometime within the following 'less than 24hrs'
before the bodies were found, the wind picked up and did what it eventually does - it
blows all leaves from a higher point (in this case, the bodies) to a lower point
(the forest floor). Horns? Runes? BS.

It's hard to judge how much RA's (previous) lawyers actually believed this Odinist theory.
OK, they've meant to zealously represent their client, so maybe it was just a strategy.
The judge said RA
wasn't being treated any differently than any other defendant, but we know that statement
is inconsistent with the truth - where/when in Indiana is a defendant attending court in a
costume of multiple padlocks a-jangle, where are they walking past a shoulder to shoulder
wall of thugs and a sheriff who makes it his business to strike a pose for some convenient
surveillance court camera, is it normal for a defendant from that town to be kept in that
particular prison, a prisoner to be sleeping on the concrete floor and deprived of the
opportunity for relatives to visit, prefered (by jailers) contact via 'we'll bill you' electronic
device? His lawyers zealously represented his interests? Where was instant, upfront
complaint to (or about) the court regarding such happenings? Johnny Cochrane would weep.

A final thought. Was one of the girls naked from the waist down, I can't remember, but one
was supposed to be wearing the clothes of the other. Maybe she was tied to a tree, could
only reach the nearby clothes of the other girl - or maybe she knew one phone had been
seized and she put on the clothes of the other girl in the hope that there would be a phone
in those clothes. Possible? I don't know enough to know if this were a considerable possibility.

 

[Tresir]

First of all, who is he? Never heard of him and I watch YT.

Second of all, I have little time but yes, this IS interesting and the drawings different than what I had seen.

Third, i have went past 20 minutes from your mark and he never show the rune symbols they are supposed to represent, he tells people to go look themselves and I am just snot going to get to doing that.

Next, he says they all did not get the same pictures and he got pictures and just who and how did they disseminate these photos and to HOW many? He got them, never heard of him, MS got them, GH got them, on and on and on.

He says Libby had Abb's blood on her hands but if you go on long enough, he has heard that but can't confirm it he later says.

It is very interesting, I'd recommend watching, however, I don't have time for the whole thing or even as much as I've watched. I have no desire to see the actual pics BUT they are probably the only thing that would give us our own actual interpretation but again don't wish to see them as I'd probably never unsee them and I have enough of bad images in my head from things that have happened in my own life/family. AND a few cases that never had warning on.

He mentions crown or statue of liberty with branches on Abby's head where others said horns. In the first drawings i saw, I thought halo. That fits more with crown than deer horns.

He guarantees no way were they killed where they lay.

Abby still had her shoes on or they were put back on... For me, that one is a puzzler...

He says he no longer has the pics. Why would that be? And that some got different pics, again how were these disseminated, etc. to all these people?

He says DEFINITELY more than one person but that doesn't remove Allen.

It is very interesting, he seems credible and no reason to not think this is what he saw and sees. The drawings are different than what I've seen. However, I don't know him at all, never heard of him and he has under 4,000 subscribers so he is new to the scene and that tells me that most of them may have come from his first launch into this case where all were looking for headlines. 3.75k subscribers and that is TODAY, so he came out of nowhere...? And YET the pics were disseminated to him? Who IS he, I did not watch the begining, I went to 20 minute in as you gave that time to see pics. He claims a source that he says is very credible that Abby had a phone. That's another thing, he doesn't say she has it with her but will guarantee people will jump to that.

He is good and I insitinctually trust what he is saying, however, I did take a look and again under 4k subscribers so new on the scene and again who is he? I am going to doubt with that many subscribers that he is someone you have watched more than one or two of either. Does he have any expertise I am asking or just a good Yter with some good instincts IF all true? A retired cop or an average joe? From the area or nowhere near? Etc.

From what I've seen, I'd recommend others watch, it is interesting and the pics are different and more detailed, still drawn stick figure stuff so no one has to worry about gore.

And since you have more time than I, what O symbols are these drawings to represent? I am not going to get around to looking up O runes I guarantee you. As it is I've lost most of my prep time before work this morning but I did watch something like 25 minutes and may watch more later but he never covered what the sticks represent for symbols other than an asterisk possibly and never explaining that either.

I will just mention one thing - it has always been said that A did not have a phone but she had a tablet. Her mother didn't want her having a phone. She didn't even know that A was on FB IIRC.

Oh two things. When RL was arrested he was paraded in the orange jumpsuit and handcuff shackles too and that was just a driving offence.

Aaah three things. I have heard of him but I don't watch him as I don't watch many videos. I find them all a bit like GH ie long winded and boring. I have done a screen shot of this stick crime scene in this video and can post it as an attachment if anyone wants me to. Let me know.

 

[Tresir]

Tresir said:
"I've seen the stick figure drawings and agree. I've also seen the supposed photo
of the tree with the supposed blood on it and cannot see the similarity to the F rune.
It just looks like someone wiped their hand or a knife on it."

Could be, good idea.

This Odinist theory is nonsense. The (supposed Odinist) persons in the community
who were said to have made admissions about the crime - who are the witnesses
to these admissions - ex-wife & ex-girlfriend, not particularly believable, IMO, even
if some ner'-do-well local boys did do some bragging about crimes (that they didn't
actually commit).
The prison guards with the 'Odin' patch - just thu-, er, lowlevel muscle employees,
who apparently have been instructed to hassle RA (e.g. video his face whilst talking
to his lawyers, so they can try and possibly lip read his words, if RA complains about
his mis-treatment.). Seems to be a real effort made to mentally mess with RA (and
possibly physically torture RA, remember the 'Don't shock me, don't shock me'
comment, & the prisoner who wrote the letter alledging mis-treatment of RA).

I won't be surprized if innocent, weak simp RA is eventually found guilty.

As far as the leaked pictures go, I assume this hollow where the victims were found
had leaves all over the ground, I see the branches as simply placed on the bodies and
some leaves were then scooped up and thrown on the bodies, the branches emplaced
and acting as an attempt to gate the leaves heaped on the bodies, possibly the wind
wasn't so great when this was done, later sometime within the following 'less than 24hrs'
before the bodies were found, the wind picked up and did what it eventually does - it
blows all leaves from a higher point (in this case, the bodies) to a lower point
(the forest floor). Horns? Runes? BS.

It's hard to judge how much RA's (previous) lawyers actually believed this Odinist theory.
OK, they've meant to zealously represent their client, so maybe it was just a strategy.
The judge said RA
wasn't being treated any differently than any other defendant, but we know that statement
is inconsistent with the truth - where/when in Indiana is a defendant attending court in a
costume of multiple padlocks a-jangle, where are they walking past a shoulder to shoulder
wall of thugs and a sheriff who makes it his business to strike a pose for some convenient
surveillance court camera, is it normal for a defendant from that town to be kept in that
particular prison, a prisoner to be sleeping on the concrete floor and deprived of the
opportunity for relatives to visit, prefered (by jailers) contact via 'we'll bill you' electronic
device? His lawyers zealously represented his interests? Where was instant, upfront
complaint to (or about) the court regarding such happenings? Johnny Cochrane would weep.

A final thought. Was one of the girls naked from the waist down, I can't remember, but one
was supposed to be wearing the clothes of the other. Maybe she was tied to a tree, could
only reach the nearby clothes of the other girl - or maybe she knew one phone had been
seized and she put on the clothes of the other girl in the hope that there would be a phone
in those clothes. Possible? I don't know enough to know if this were a considerable possibility.

I think A was dressed in L's clothes and then killer couldn't fit A's clothes on L so she was likely naked but MOO as I don't know if any of this is rumour or just guesswork by online sleuths just cashing in on it all. I mean how would we know if it wasn't just a bunch of made up stuff for the defence's theory anyway? I don't believe it myself. As for the bodies being staged or posed, I don't really believe that either.

 

[GrandmaBear]

RL was a big drinker (and driver) outside of his property - that's what got him in trouble as he was already on probation for it I believe.

Were RL, RA and the K's VInlanders? If they were, I could see a little more credence to the theory, but it just doesn't fit with the motive IMO.

The only thing that could fit was if RA wanted to frame the Vinlanders to throw LE off track, after he had murdered them but I still think the sticks and blood are more likely accidental.

I seriously doubt they were Os

I don't think these newer drawings, IF based on actual photos and done correctly, look accidental, at least not all the branches. Maybe if the girls had been there far longer than less than a 24 hour period (wasn't it?) and even then that would be hard to believe. The person was either starting to cover them or was doing a symbol to POINT to the Os or anyone but him. It's hardly unheard of in murder to try to make it look as if someone else did it rather than thine self (the murderer).

I think the staging itself of the bodies has significance to the killer or was part of his fantasy. I don't know why I think they look as if they are in some play, musical or are dancing... Could it have been something he saw them do on SM, in school, church, or even on a web cam to Anthony Shotz? I'm likely way off. Otherwise it was the way he saw them or wanted to make them look and it means something to him... I WONDER if HE took photos after he staged them...? It is a bit odd I'd say to stage the bodies and then try to cover them up no...? I mean I GUESS he could have staged them, got his pics and his sick memories and then decided best to cover and then ran out of time but didn't he want his work seen by others or no...:? Where the he77 is Mel as again I think we are talking an SK type, he is or would have been...

It seems more likely he wanted his staging and handiwork noticed. And the branches, etc. were to lead LE astray but NOT cover the bodies and his work BUT to seem like someone else did it...?

Yet I don't know... And isn't that the problem here, we just don't and can't know...

I'm also going to go back to the fact Allen confessed and almost none of this hype and yelling about Os came about until they had no "out"... The defense needed something and they needed something BIG. The timing of many a thing was just a bit uncanny...

 

[GrandmaBear]

Sarcasm is for the basement.

So are you saying "your guy" did or did not show and compare the sticks with O symbols and their meaning? I mean I haven't watched it all and you said you hadn't either but yo did say he explained, showed, etc. and gave me the minute marker in the video and i didn't see that. I am sincerely asking, not picking. Because if he did or anyone has such, I'd like to see it. We keep hearing how EVERY branch and the tree mimics O symbols but after all of this time the only one is the F in the tree which doesn't look much like an F to me at all. Why aren't those that believe it saying the meaning and which symbol, etc.?? I seriously want to know.

 

[GrandmaBear]

If someone thinks that the position of the bodies is not deliberate, I don't get it. There's no way that natural forces are going to set bodies up this way.

I agree on that but what about the bodies makes it Os? But you were talking the sticks. I see both things very differently.