Breonna Taylor, Louisville EMT, killed in botched police raid

GrandmaBear · Sep 23, 2020

Hmmm. $15,000 cash bond... Wanton endangerment was it? Only one officer charged. I would guess there will be riots...

I don't know what I think... While I tend to think most juries do their best, it does depend on the info they receive...

kdg411 · Sep 23, 2020

GrandmaBear · Sep 23, 2020

Well that's enough for me. I don't need the talking heads playing their cards and making it about this or that agenda. And then the news trying to find evidence of rioting immediately...

To me it comes down to if the officers believed they were at the right place and that the information and address they had was solid. If they believed it, I feel one way; if they knew better or should have, then my opinion changes. However, I don't know the answer to that.

I do think whoever or however the information was botched regardless needs to be looked at, how it was botched, where it occurred and why. Did one person botch it, or were there more folks along the way that should have caught it, double checked it, etc.?

The civil suit claims there were factions trying to get ownership, etc. of this neighborhood.

Kimster · Sep 23, 2020

In a case like this, I think it's a good idea to go to trial so all the facts can be presented on both sides. That way, hopefully, we can move forward on how to prevent this from happening again.

kdg411 · Sep 24, 2020

GrandmaBear said:
Well that's enough for me. I don't need the talking heads playing their cards and making it about this or that agenda. And then the news trying to find evidence of rioting immediately...

To me it comes down to if the officers believed they were at the right place and that the information and address they had was solid. If they believed it, I feel one way; if they knew better or should have, then my opinion changes. However, I don't know the answer to that.

I do think whoever or however the information was botched regardless needs to be looked at, how it was botched, where it occurred and why. Did one person botch it, or were there more folks along the way that should have caught it, double checked it, etc.?

The civil suit claims there were factions trying to get ownership, etc. of this neighborhood.

Per your statement BBM above, read the article below. The purported theory about ownership is grossly overstated. And IMO, Breonna's Mother accepted a price for her daughter's life.

Jon Mattingly, Myles Cosgrove and Brett Hankison were serving a warrant on a known drug property. Mattingly & Cosgrove fired their weapons after entry was made & because Kenneth Walker (boyfriend) fired at officers first. Hankison fired his weapon carelessly outside of the building, hence the charge from the GJ. As the law is written, the two officers who weren't charged were justified due to self defense.

MSM has twisted the narrative in this case when the facts have already been presented. Again, this is all MOO.

'A false narrative': Louisville leaders scoff at gentrification claims in Breonna Taylor suit

City leaders say it isn't true that Breonna Taylor was caught up in an attempt to speed up the city's multimillion-dollar development plan.

www.courier-journal.com

GrandmaBear · Sep 24, 2020

kdg411 said:
Per your statement BBM above, read the article below. The purported theory about ownership is grossly overstated. And IMO, Breonna's Mother accepted a price for her daughter's life.

Jon Mattingly, Myles Cosgrove and Brett Hankison were serving a warrant on a known drug property. Mattingly & Cosgrove fired their weapons after entry was made & because Kenneth Walker (boyfriend) fired at officers first. Hankison fired his weapon carelessly outside of the building, hence the charge from the GJ. As the law is written, the two officers who weren't charged were justified due to self defense.

MSM has twisted the narrative in this case when the facts have already been presented. Again, this is all MOO.

'A false narrative': Louisville leaders scoff at gentrification claims in Breonna Taylor suit

City leaders say it isn't true that Breonna Taylor was caught up in an attempt to speed up the city's multimillion-dollar development plan.

www.courier-journal.com

I haven't read it yet but will. But right off before I read it, I will say as I already said, I am undecided here. I also am the first not to listen to MSM, I just about can't stand to. I was off main channels yesterday shortly after the announcement because I could not stand what they immediately were doing with it on MSM. It does appear a settlement was taken as money for a life but on the other hand, just thinking logically, what is the other side doing offering that amount of money if there is no truth to the basis of the claim? Then fight it. Of course we all know that would cost more and keep it in the news longer and it happens all of the time and it is not the way our world works... Sadly.

IF these officers truly believed they were acting on a solid warrant at a solid address, etc. then I stand with LE on that, or at least with the officers, who knows how the wrong place was targeted, although the number of shots and more I question once something occurred.

I don't know. I do know it is sad it all turns political, every single incident that can be used that way.

So.... No argument here. I don't know. We never have all of the facts and we sure can't get them from MSM.

Guess Who · Sep 24, 2020

GrandmaBear said:
Still absorbing. I am not going to knock a settlement in the case, if wrong was done then wrong was done and they have that right to sue and since no charges yet have been brought, it is understandable it was went ahead with I guess. Insisting that there also be change is good but I find some of the changes a bit strange? I also guess one would normally expect a settlement after a criminal trial but it is not always the case and in this case, again, no charges have yet been brought.

Giving officers an incentive to live in lower income areas? Do all people want them living in their area off duty? What good does that do? An off duty officer residing there for what purpose exactly? I guess I can see what the thought maybe is there, to have them get to know others and neighborhoods? I still find it a strange focus and was it thought out?

Social workers dispatched with cops on calls? I hate to say it but there is always the everlasting idea of budgets and having workers available at all times...? To have one available for every call or dispatch or to ride along they would have to hire how many to be on duty 24/7 at the station I guess? This was a botched raid supposedly, a social worker would not have been sent in ahead of time?? I guess I fail to see how either of these things apply or would have applied to this case or made a difference.

And the random drug testing of officers--not a bad idea but I would guess a random drug testing policy is already in place, most places including businesses have one, whether it is practiced or used often, hard to say but again did that apply in some way to this case? Did some drugged up cop mess this entire raid up?? I must have missed that part.

I guess what I am trying to say is they got some promised reform I guess but I don't see where some of this reform would have made a bit of difference as to what happened to Breonna and why these measures are even a part of it? The change to search warrants, for sure that would apply, but these other things, I guess I will have to read up on it all because I don't see how they would have changed a thing in this case or how they relate at all or even why they are asked for... I must be missing something...

regarding the officers living in the neighborhoods. It works. Several communities around here did that a few years ago by giving them help with down payments that would be forgiven if they lived there for 5 years in specific neighborhoods.

GrandmaBear · Sep 24, 2020

Guess Who said:
regarding the officers living in the neighborhoods. It works. Several communities around here did that a few years ago by giving them help with down payments that would be forgiven if they lived there for 5 years in specific neighborhoods.

That's interesting and good to know. I mean I would hope some officers are real and come from all walks of life and would not have to do that to get to know another community and that they already connect with and are fair to all and have friends from all areas. I was more thinking of cops being targeted if known to live in a community like the news portrays of anti-LE... Of course that is something they try to get going, MSM, etc.

I don't think it is a bad idea depending on the details. My brain was more where like after the Mpls thing and people and protestors were after the cop's home and residence, whether he was home or the wife, etc.

Howell · Sep 24, 2020

kdg411 said:
Per your statement BBM above, read the article below. The purported theory about ownership is grossly overstated. And IMO, Breonna's Mother accepted a price for her daughter's life.

Jon Mattingly, Myles Cosgrove and Brett Hankison were serving a warrant on a known drug property. Mattingly & Cosgrove fired their weapons after entry was made & because Kenneth Walker (boyfriend) fired at officers first. Hankison fired his weapon carelessly outside of the building, hence the charge from the GJ. As the law is written, the two officers who weren't charged were justified due to self defense.

MSM has twisted the narrative in this case when the facts have already been presented. Again, this is all MOO.

'A false narrative': Louisville leaders scoff at gentrification claims in Breonna Taylor suit

City leaders say it isn't true that Breonna Taylor was caught up in an attempt to speed up the city's multimillion-dollar development plan.

www.courier-journal.com

I agree that the 'no bill' for the other charges was the correct decision, but to the bolded: I don't think that's a fair statement. Her daughter was already dead. Breonna's mother traded nothing for the settlement. As an ancillary victim of a wrongful death, she is entitled to compensation as much as anyone else who has suffered injury.

kdg411 · Sep 24, 2020

Howell said:
I agree that the 'no bill' for the other charges was the correct decision, but to the bolded: I don't think that's a fair statement. Her daughter was already dead. Breonna's mother traded nothing for the settlement. As an ancillary victim of a wrongful death, she is entitled to compensation as much as anyone else who has suffered injury.

Thank you for this and I agree. Tamika Palmer accepted a settlement from a wrongful death lawsuit against the city of Louisville for Breonna's death.

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed · Sep 24, 2020

The thing I take the most issue with is, SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for what happened to Breonna. Is there enough for murder charges? Apparently not. Like GrandmaBear said above, I suppose it comes down to, were they acting because they believed they were in the right place and were being shot at by high level narcotics people? Possibly. We weren't there, but NEITHER WERE THEIR BODY CAMS, apparently.

The only charges coming from the dude being a bad shot and his bullets flying randomly into another apartment? And NOT for someone's bullets flying randomly INTO A PERSON? Outrageous. (Go back and look at the crime scene photos from the last page. Bullets were quite literally flying everywhere. Pretty sure you're supposed to identify a target. Not spray bullets willy-nilly.)

And then, nobody decides to call for medical assistance? For MORE THAN 20 MINUTES? Yet again, neglect for her life.

So, no charges for first-degree murder? Alright. But no charges at all for her death?

And then, why were they there? Whose error sent them there? Someones actions cause a death. Manslaughter? Wrongful death suit? I know that the officers were the only ones up for charges, but it shouldn't have been only them, IMO.

No matter how anyone sees this case, the truth of the entire matter is that Breonna should NOT have died. Officers being at the wrong place on a no-knock warrant led to her death. The system (and not just in Louisville) is in need of a serious overhaul. The changes agreed to in the settlement? It's a good start. And I hope that Breonna's death can lead to some good for the system as a whole.

Also found the below interesting:

'Vigorous' self-defense laws likely prevented homicide charges in Breonna Taylor's death, experts say

Kentucky's "vigorous" self-defense laws made charging three police officers with homicide in Breonna Taylor's death virtually impossible, experts say.

www.usatoday.com

Despite the decision, Cosgrove and Mattingly are not entirely exonerated.

Abramson noted that the case could be presented to another grand jury and that the Justice Department could seek a federal indictment for a civil rights violation.

GrandmaBear · Sep 24, 2020

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
The thing I take the most issue with is, SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for what happened to Breonna. Is there enough for murder charges? Apparently not. Like GrandmaBear said above, I suppose it comes down to, were they acting because they believed they were in the right place and were being shot at by high level narcotics people? Possibly. We weren't there, but NEITHER WERE THEIR BODY CAMS, apparently.

The only charges coming from the dude being a bad shot and his bullets flying randomly into another apartment? And NOT for someone's bullets flying randomly INTO A PERSON? Outrageous. (Go back and look at the crime scene photos from the last page. Bullets were quite literally flying everywhere. Pretty sure you're supposed to identify a target. Not spray bullets willy-nilly.)

And then, nobody decides to call for medical assistance? For MORE THAN 20 MINUTES? Yet again, neglect for her life.

So, no charges for first-degree murder? Alright. But no charges at all for her death?

And then, why were they there? Whose error sent them there? Someones actions cause a death. Manslaughter? Wrongful death suit? I know that the officers were the only ones up for charges, but it shouldn't have been only them, IMO.

No matter how anyone sees this case, the truth of the entire matter is that Breonna should NOT have died. Officers being at the wrong place on a no-knock warrant led to her death. The system (and not just in Louisville) is in need of a serious overhaul. The changes agreed to in the settlement? It's a good start. And I hope that Breonna's death can lead to some good for the system as a whole.

Also found the below interesting:

'Vigorous' self-defense laws likely prevented homicide charges in Breonna Taylor's death, experts say

Kentucky's "vigorous" self-defense laws made charging three police officers with homicide in Breonna Taylor's death virtually impossible, experts say.

www.usatoday.com

Despite the decision, Cosgrove and Mattingly are not entirely exonerated.

Abramson noted that the case could be presented to another grand jury and that the Justice Department could seek a federal indictment for a civil rights violation.

This is a great post and that is exactly the thing. How is it they were there and how is it it was the wrong place assuming it was? It SEEMS to be not disputed it was the wrong place and information so SOMEONE screwed up and a woman is dead. And then, hearing one shot is one thing but then for an officer (or more) to fire willy nilly all over the place the tons of shots EVERYWHERE is an officer(s) who should not be in the job and does not have the needed strength/temerity, etc. to do such work. I do remember the pictures and the posts above. They are so fortunate no one else is dead.

IF this was the wrong place, someone screwed up and someone with something so serious to set up for undercover and a no knock warrant??? Jmo but that should be double checked to no end one would think.

Her family deserves the settlement, I have nothing against that, no doubt about it--I do wish and think they could have taken it further is all. The timing seems a bit uncanny--settlement and then the grand jury announcement almost together one after the other. However, they have also been through plenty and that decision is theirs if they did not want to proceed all of the way through which admittedly would take a further toll on the family.

GrandmaBear · Sep 25, 2020

So George Clooney says anyone who is not a resident of Kentucky needs to keep their opinions of the grand jury decision to themselves... Huh. Like it or not, it became a case of national interest and we and tons of others are talking about it but I guess we should not... I mean I am not a Kentucky resident. There was a time I liked him, I don't think much of him any more and have not for some time. Quelling protests I would give him credit for but that is not what he said, nowhere close. I also would think that anyone who is in support of Breonna and justice he would encourage but he did not do that either, all are to shut up I guess unless a Kentucky resident. Whatever...

Strange and imo rude comment unless it was taken way out of context which is possible with media.

2 Police Officers Shot in Louisville as Protests Erupt After Decision in Breonna Taylor Case

The officers were rushed to the hospital and reportedly one officer is in surgery, and the other is alert and in stable condition

people.com

Guess Who · Sep 25, 2020

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
The thing I take the most issue with is, SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for what happened to Breonna. Is there enough for murder charges? Apparently not. Like GrandmaBear said above, I suppose it comes down to, were they acting because they believed they were in the right place and were being shot at by high level narcotics people? Possibly. We weren't there, but NEITHER WERE THEIR BODY CAMS, apparently.

The only charges coming from the dude being a bad shot and his bullets flying randomly into another apartment? And NOT for someone's bullets flying randomly INTO A PERSON? Outrageous. (Go back and look at the crime scene photos from the last page. Bullets were quite literally flying everywhere. Pretty sure you're supposed to identify a target. Not spray bullets willy-nilly.)

And then, nobody decides to call for medical assistance? For MORE THAN 20 MINUTES? Yet again, neglect for her life.

So, no charges for first-degree murder? Alright. But no charges at all for her death?

And then, why were they there? Whose error sent them there? Someones actions cause a death. Manslaughter? Wrongful death suit? I know that the officers were the only ones up for charges, but it shouldn't have been only them, IMO.

No matter how anyone sees this case, the truth of the entire matter is that Breonna should NOT have died. Officers being at the wrong place on a no-knock warrant led to her death. The system (and not just in Louisville) is in need of a serious overhaul. The changes agreed to in the settlement? It's a good start. And I hope that Breonna's death can lead to some good for the system as a whole.

Also found the below interesting:

'Vigorous' self-defense laws likely prevented homicide charges in Breonna Taylor's death, experts say

Kentucky's "vigorous" self-defense laws made charging three police officers with homicide in Breonna Taylor's death virtually impossible, experts say.

www.usatoday.com

Despite the decision, Cosgrove and Mattingly are not entirely exonerated.

Abramson noted that the case could be presented to another grand jury and that the Justice Department could seek a federal indictment for a civil rights violation.

and their excuse for firing was because he fired at them, which I do understand, BUT they didn't hit him with any of the dozens of shots fired and hit her multiple times. Something is very wrong with this part of the picture by itself for me.

Guess Who · Sep 25, 2020

Initial Police Report Didn’t Conclude Breonna Taylor's Boyfriend Shot a Cop in the Leg

That means it’s entirely possible that while Walker admitted to firing a bullet, it wasn’t necessarily the one that hit Sgt. Mattingly.

www.vice.com

GarAndMo39 · Sep 29, 2020

Grand Juror's Motion

GarAndMo39 · Sep 29, 2020

Lawyer for grand juror in Breonna Taylor case: Kentucky AG didn't present everything

A lawyer for the grand juror said his client felt compelled to act after remarks by Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron "about how everything played out."
<snip>
Walker has said police did not identify themselves and that he mistook them for intruders. He fired his gun once after officers broke down Taylor's door March 13. Cameron said that a single witness corroborated officers' accounts that they knocked and announced themselves.

This is among the unresolved issues, Glogower said.

Cameron was asked pointedly by a reporter last week "why he made such a distinction between one witness regarding the knock and announce issue versus multiple other witnesses who said something different," Glogower said.

"What we're getting from the attorney general's office twofold at this point is that they presented everything," Glogower said. "I would submit to you, based on their own statements, they didn't do that." <snip>

Lawyer for grand juror in Breonna Taylor case: Kentucky AG didn't present everything

A lawyer for the grand juror said his client felt compelled to act after remarks by Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron "about how everything played out."

www.nbcnews.com

Howell · Sep 30, 2020

The thing I take the most issue with is, SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for what happened to Breonna. Is there enough for murder charges? Apparently not. Like GrandmaBear said above, I suppose it comes down to, were they acting because they believed they were in the right place and were being shot at by high level narcotics people? Possibly. We weren't there, but NEITHER WERE THEIR BODY CAMS, apparently.

The case documents indicate they were at the correct apartment. The officers executed a no-knock warrant, signed by a judge. I totally agree the lack of body cams is inexcusable. That's a great point. These were plainclothes officers who served the warrant, and that is unacceptable.

The only charges coming from the dude being a bad shot and his bullets flying randomly into another apartment? And NOT for someone's bullets flying randomly INTO A PERSON? Outrageous. (Go back and look at the crime scene photos from the last page. Bullets were quite literally flying everywhere. Pretty sure you're supposed to identify a target. Not spray bullets willy-nilly.)

Taylor was standing in the hallway near/next to Walker(who had admittedly fired upon the officers first) when she was shot. Now just to be clear, I do not blame Walker for shooting first, I would have too, but I also can't blame the officers for shooting back.

And then, nobody decides to call for medical assistance? For MORE THAN 20 MINUTES? Yet again, neglect for her life.

Breonna had been shot six times. The coroner has stated that she likely would've been dead within a minute.

So, no charges for first-degree murder? Alright. But no charges at all for her death?

And then, why were they there? Whose error sent them there? Someones actions cause a death. Manslaughter? Wrongful death suit? I know that the officers were the only ones up for charges, but it shouldn't have been only them, IMO.

A wrongful death suit was in fact settled for $12 million, payable to Taylor's family. One officer was terminated and charged for his actions on the scene, apparently for 'spraying bullets willy-nilly' as you said. Who else do you think should be charged, and for what crime?

No matter how anyone sees this case, the truth of the entire matter is that Breonna should NOT have died. Officers being at the wrong place on a no-knock warrant led to her death. The system (and not just in Louisville) is in need of a serious overhaul. The changes agreed to in the settlement? It's a good start. And I hope that Breonna's death can lead to some good for the system as a whole.

I agree that Taylor should not have been killed, but the problem isn't with the officers' actions on the scene. They were at the correct location, they did as they were trained(excepting the officer charged). They executed the warrant, they were fired upon, and they returned fire. Taylor was an unfortunate victim of crossfire.

As I said earlier, the problem lies with no-knock warrants which make these kinds of situations inevitable. I don't believe no-knock warrants should exist at all, but at the very least, they should be served by uniformed officers and at a reasonable time of day when suspects are not expected to be sleeping.

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed · Sep 30, 2020

Howell said:
The case documents indicate they were at the correct apartment. The officers executed a no-knock warrant, signed by a judge. I totally agree the lack of body cams is inexcusable. That's a great point. These were plainclothes officers who served the warrant, and that is unacceptable.

Yes. The "correct" apartment based on an INCORRECT warrant, executed in relation to a suspect that was already in custody. I've read various things, but even if they still wanted to search her apartment after apprehending the main suspect, they had no reason to do this in the middle of the night with a no-knock warrant.

Howell said:
Taylor was standing in the hallway near/next to Walker(who had admittedly fired upon the offIicers first) when she was shot. Now just to be clear, I do not blame Walker for shooting first, I would have too, but I also can't blame the officers for shooting back.

I don't either. I think I've said that in the past as well. Which brings me to say, again, this could have been avoided entirely. But, also again, if you're going to shoot, identify a target. What if there were children in the apartment?

Howell said:
Breonna had been shot six times. The coroner has stated that she likely would've been dead within a minute.

The officers are not medical professionals. They don't get to make the call that someone is "beyond saving". Period.

Howell said:
A wrongful death suit was in fact settled for $12 million, payable to Taylor's family. One officer was terminated and charged for his actions on the scene, apparently for 'spraying bullets willy-nilly' as you said. Who else do you think should be charged, and for what crime?

If an officer can be charged for spraying bullets into an adjacent apartment, he can also be charged for spraying bullets into a person. (Cosgrove, who actually shot her, remains on the force with no charges.)

Also, interestingly, Hankison was charged for firing into a neighboring apartment. But nobody was charged for firing through her CEILING into an upstairs apartment.

I don't think manslaughter would be reaching that far. Did they intend to kill her with premeditation? No. But their actions caused her death. If you shoot more than 30 shots over more than a minute and hit everything EXCEPT your target, you're pretty damn negligent.

Howell said:
I agree that Taylor should not have been killed, but the problem isn't with the officers' actions on the scene. They were at the correct location, they did as they were trained(excepting the officer charged). They executed the warrant, they were fired upon, and they returned fire. Taylor was an unfortunate victim of crossfire.

As I said earlier, the problem lies with no-knock warrants which make these kinds of situations inevitable. I don't believe no-knock warrants should exist at all, but at the very least, they should be served by uniformed officers and at a reasonable time of day when suspects are not expected to be sleeping.

And yes, I do agree that the no-knock warrant (along with the body cams) is the major issue here. Thankfully, due to this situation, Louisville banned them.

Howell · Sep 30, 2020

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
Yes. The "correct" apartment based on an INCORRECT warrant, executed in relation to a suspect that was already in custody. I've read various things, but even if they still wanted to search her apartment after apprehending the main suspect, they had no reason to do this in the middle of the night with a no-knock warrant.

What was incorrect on the warrant?

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
I don't either. I think I've said that in the past as well. Which brings me to say, again, this could have been avoided entirely. But, also again, if you're going to shoot, identify a target. What if there were children in the apartment?

But again, the officer who was found to be shooting irresponsibly has been fired, and is facing charges for his actions. What more do you want?

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
The officers are not medical professionals. They don't get to make the call that someone is "beyond saving". Period.

Well, I can't agree with that. Police officers are trained to identify one's medical condition and how to best respond. By your standard(Period), a "medical professional" would have to verify every death before an officer can even react at all. I think that's unreasonable.

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
If an officer can be charged for spraying bullets into an adjacent apartment, he can also be charged for spraying bullets into a person. (Cosgrove, who actually shot her, remains on the force with no charges.)

There's no indication that Cosgrove was simply "spraying bullets". The officers who served the warrant came under fire, they fired back at the two people in the hallway/bedroom. Again I'll ask, who do you want to be charged, and for what crime?

SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:
Also, interestingly, Hankison was charged for firing into a neighboring apartment. But nobody was charged for firing through her CEILING into an upstairs apartment.

I don't think manslaughter would be reaching that far. Did they intend to kill her with premeditation? No. But their actions caused her death. If you shoot more than 30 shots over more than a minute and hit everything EXCEPT your target, you're pretty damn negligent.

But you're speaking from a position of hindsight. 30 shots is 10 shots from each officer. It's easy to second guess and say now that Walker and Taylor were not dangerous. The officers on the scene had no idea what they were walking into. Anyone who has ever been under fire will tell you that firing 10 shots is nothing. I don't wish to offend you, but you seem to lack an understanding of how one reacts when under fire. You don't think, you don't count how many rounds you've fired, you just respond.

Breonna Taylor, Louisville EMT, killed in botched police raid

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Lawyer for grand juror in Breonna Taylor case: Kentucky AG didn't present everything​

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Lawyer for grand juror in Breonna Taylor case: Kentucky AG didn't present everything