Ellen Rae Greenberg. Was it suicide or homicide?

In this podcast I discuss the true crime story of Ellen Rae Greenberg mysterious death.

Let me know what you think of her crime.

The Mysterious Death of Ellen Rae Greenburg: Was It Suicide or Homicide?



MEDIA LINK: Ellen Rae Greenberg: Suicide or homicide? The 27-year-old teacher was found dead in her Philadelphia kitchen in 2011.

 

[Kimster]

Probably afraid of the info that might come out.

That’s what I was thinking.

 

[Regina]

I didn't see this posted yet, but I may have missed it. Looks like LE in Philadelphia are officially reopening an investigation.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg case getting new look by Philadelphia medical examiner's office

Before a civil case could get underway Monday, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials reached an agreement to reopen the teacher's death investigation more than 14 years after she was found stabbed to death in her Manayunk apartment.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

Looks like they decided to do it in the face of a civil trial.

Re the info in that article, I don't think the ME ever "ruled homicide" because if he had, his report would have been amended but as we can see, it isn't/ wasn't.

 

[Guess Who]

That’s what I was thinking.

What ever the reason, it's a major win for the parents.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I didn't see this posted yet, but I may have missed it. Looks like LE in Philadelphia are officially reopening an investigation.

Suicide or homicide? Ellen Greenberg case getting new look by Philadelphia medical examiner's office

Before a civil case could get underway Monday, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials reached an agreement to reopen the teacher's death investigation more than 14 years after she was found stabbed to death in her Manayunk apartment.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

Looks like they decided to do it in the face of a civil trial.

Yeah he for instance is going to have to take the stand, be deposed and all else. The ME and LE will be questioned on her findings closing of the case, etc. They can't hide in a civil trial. I'm glad the are reopening but it isn't a good look for them, it took all these years and they are only doing it in the face of a civil trial. It bites too because all these years later, things are often harder to re=investigate.

 

[GrandmaBear]

It's occurred to me that the issue I've had with ME's rulings is when the ME isn't decisive when I think they could be.
In this case, I'm not impressed with this ME's "something other than suicide" and I'm disappointed (isn't the first time) with Wecht's "suspicious for homicide".

I think what happened in this case is that LE spoke too soon, much like the LE in the Debbie Collier case, where the initial impression of the scene was that it was homicide.

Collier was definitely different. I am not 100% percent there but I can't say they aren't right either. There's just nothing to indicate anyone but she was there, but it certainly is not a typical suicide/accident..

This one isn't either. This one though, it would take a LOT to make me believe it was a suicide. I don't think her parents are like "just in denial", there is a LOT of reason to wonder in this case and I don't tend think it was suicide. Zahau would be another strange one. As to alleged "accidents", the boy in the gym mat comes to mind as a strange one. In most of them, I do not think we agree lol.

I have a problem with rulings when they can't be certain.

 

[Regina]

Collier was definitely different. I am not 100% percent there but I can't say they aren't right either. There's just nothing to indicate anyone but she was there, but it certainly is not a typical suicide/accident..

This one isn't either. This one though, it would take a LOT to make me believe it was a suicide. I don't think her parents are like "just in denial", there is a LOT of reason to wonder in this case and I don't tend think it was suicide. Zahau would be another strange one. As to alleged "accidents", the boy in the gym mat comes to mind as a strange one. In most of them, I do not think we agree lol.

I have a problem with rulings when they can't be certain.

Well, whether circumstances surrounding a death are atypical doesn't matter; don't allow it to cloud your judgement.

For me, there are cases where I think a determination re manner could be made but wasn't. For example, I think John O'Keefe's death should have been ruled homicide.
In this case, the only official ruling I'm aware of is suicide but it now appears that the original pathologist has changed his opinion to undetermined. And Wecht's opinion is also uncertain.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Well, whether circumstances surrounding a death are atypical doesn't matter; don't allow it to cloud your judgement.

For me, there are cases where I think a determination re manner could be made but wasn't. For example, I think John O'Keefe's death should have been ruled homicide.
In this case, the only official ruling I'm aware of is suicide but it now appears that the original pathologist has changed his opinion to undetermined. And Wecht's opinion is also uncertain.

It doesn't cloud my judgment. What it does is I take all the facts and what both sides know or have to offer and also whether I feel what happened could have even POSSIBLY been suicide for instance. I think it extremely unlikely here.

Yes, and it's been reopened too.

 

[Regina]

It doesn't cloud my judgment. What it does is I take all the facts and what both sides know or have to offer and also whether I feel what happened could have even POSSIBLY been suicide for instance. I think it extremely unlikely here.

Yes, and it's been reopened too.

It seemed you were saying that if it's unusual, then it likely didn't happen.
Anyway, yes, that it's unusual has nothing to do with whether it's possible and of course, it's up to you to decide whether it's possible.

 

[Tresir]

Wecht's report.

https://crimetimelines.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Ellen-Greenberg-Autopsy-2012-Wecht-RPT.pdf

Ok it says that the outside solid bar doorguard was broken to gain access. She wouldn't have been able to lock that from inside the apartment right? So had he locked and barred her in when he went to the gym?

Also, the description says she was sitting up against a kitchen cabinet so i guess it could be possible to do some of those rear and side stab wounds if you are bracing the knife against the cabinet and banging your head back against it. But it sure wouldn't be easy.

 

[Regina]

Ok it says that the outside solid bar doorguard was broken to gain access. She wouldn't have been able to lock that from inside the apartment right? So had he locked and barred her in when he went to the gym?

Also, the description says she was sitting up against a kitchen cabinet so i guess it could be possible to do some of those rear and side stab wounds if you are bracing the knife against the cabinet and banging your head back against it. But it sure wouldn't be easy.

The lock was on the inside of the apartment.

I'm not aware of a reason to think she wasn't standing when those injuries were inflicted...

 

[Tresir]

The lock was on the inside of the apartment.

I'm not aware of a reason to think she wasn't standing when those injuries were inflicted...

Ok, so she locked herself in before she was murdered/killed herself? If she was murdered, how did the killer lock the door from inside?

So you think someone moved her and sat her against the cabinets?

Were some of the wounds post mortem? Can they tell?

 

[Regina]

Ok, so she locked herself in before she was murdered/killed herself? If she was murdered, how did the killer lock the door from inside?

So you think someone moved her and sat her against the cabinets?

Were some of the wounds post mortem? Can they tell?

The door was locked after her fiance left the apartment.
All I know is how her fiance described having found her.
There were no post mortem wounds.

 

[Tresir]

The door was locked after her fiance left the apartment.
All I know is how her fiance described having found her.
There were no post mortem wounds.

Locked and barred by her?

Also, what about the apartment, blood trails or anything to indicate she was fighting someone off or running from them?

Some of the wounds were only a few mm deep so almost like self harming. Also she had Zolpidem in her blood. Was she prescribed that, do we know?

 

[Guess Who]

The lock was on the inside of the apartment.

I'm not aware of a reason to think she wasn't standing when those injuries were inflicted...

blood evidence would show if she was or wasn't standing at the time.

 

[Regina]

blood evidence would show if she was or wasn't standing at the time.

Yeah, I would think so.

 

[Tresir]

Not sure if this has been posted already. Apologies if it has. Three of the neck wounds were post mortem as there was no haemorraging. One of those was from the post mortem itself, but the other two weren't. This describes her as sitting against two corner kitchen cabinets, slumped forward.

https://www.lambmcerlane.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/inquirer.com-It-was-very-very-weird-A-civil-suit-reveals-new-details-in-the-case-of-Ellen-Greenberg.pdf

 

[GrandmaBear]

It seemed you were saying that if it's unusual, then it likely didn't happen.
Anyway, yes, that it's unusual has nothing to do with whether it's possible and of course, it's up to you to decide whether it's possible.

No, I said no such thing. In fact I said with Collier, I could go either way. I was resistant at first when they suddenly changed it, but it was suddenly changed as you know. They've managed to mostly convince me (LE). It's when there are things in them when I look at all that it is almost impossible to believe the victim could have done oneself, OR that one would find hard to believe any freak accident could have caused, OR too many of those things.

There are unusual cases of all kinds, doesn't mean they didn't happen, including unusual homicides with strange facts.

I was n't saying any such thing at all.

And good morning!

 

[GrandmaBear]

Not sure if this has been posted already. Apologies if it has. Three of the neck wounds were post mortem as there was no haemorraging. One of those was from the post mortem itself, but the other two weren't. This describes her as sitting against two corner kitchen cabinets, slumped forward.

https://www.lambmcerlane.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/inquirer.com-It-was-very-very-weird-A-civil-suit-reveals-new-details-in-the-case-of-Ellen-Greenberg.pdf

Yeah, this was no suicide imo. Way too much that doesn't work.

 

[Tresir]

Has this already been posted? Sorry if so. It is dated 5th Feb, so could have additional info.

Death of teacher with 20 stab wounds to be reinvestigated after reversed suicide ruling

The pathologist who performed Ellen Greenberg’s autopsy in 2011 said in a legal filing he now believes her manner of death “should be designated as something other than suicide.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[GrandmaBear]

Has this already been posted? Sorry if so. It is dated 5th Feb, so could have additional info.

Death of teacher with 20 stab wounds to be reinvestigated after reversed suicide ruling

The pathologist who performed Ellen Greenberg’s autopsy in 2011 said in a legal filing he now believes her manner of death “should be designated as something other than suicide.”

www.nbcnews.com

I think part of this settlement probably included an agreement on taking another look at the case, and some other things. I don't see her parents settling just for money and not ensuring some of these other things.

You know, I don't know if it played in butt Philly is rife with crime and LE and politicians want to keep the crime stats down, especially with violent crime and homicides in particular. Others think it was the connections he/his family had.

I know MEs also have to or are supposed to not just take their own findings on an examination but information from LE on what they saw, determined, etc. LE kind of decided this was a suicide....

So what is your belief in this one. I do not believe it was any suicide.