LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *GUILTY*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I've seen on WS the man's name given as Mitch Westerman, reference
is made there to some interview he was in (I EDIT:CAN'Tcan find it on YT), he's a
supposed blowhard, not stated anywhere if it said if this is also the name
of the suicider.

@Tresir said:
Do you have any links for
1. the bullet being between the girls and not under clothes? ( I believe it was
between the girls but the clothes were too. A's clothes that wouldn't fit L. )
2. Nonsense science relating to the bullet identified to have ejected from RA's
gun?

I understood it was well known the bullet was found between the bodies (heck,
it even states it in the Delphi Murders Wiki), I understand one of the girls had
clothes on her - having trouble understanding how the clothes are on a girl,
a girl is on the ground, the bullet is between the girls - how is the bullet under
the clothes then? This ain't no Danny Kaye musical, so if you ever get to see
those pictures of the crime scence and if there are any clothes between
the girls in the photo, well, for sure correct & educate me....................:unsure: .
Bullet allegedly identified to have allegedly ejected from RA's gun - RA's
(previous) attorneys described the alleged bullet match I.D. as "anything
but a science", so OK, hit me up for an IMO. :gavel:

Tresir said:
"Article that has the probable cause affidavit in it for confirming facts."

Probable Cause Affidavit contains alleged facts, alleged by the
Indiana arresting and/or prosecuting authority. Plenty of examples where
Indiana arresting and/or prosecuting authority made untrue allegations,
for example;
Former Cop Spends 13 Years in Prison Due to Wrongful Conviction
No charges against Brookville, Indiana, police officers accused of arresting candidate they thought was anti-police
Hart v. Mannina, 798 F.3d 578 | Casetext Search + Citator

... and now, for instance, we have the allegation from the defence
that Sheriff Tony Liggett falsely inserted 'bloody' into a witness
statement. (So no muddy and bloody... just muddy).
I have seen it that the initials for the suicide victim are RF.

I believe the girls had their clothes on when he racked the bullet so it fell on the ground and he didn't realise. He probably directed them to disrobe at the same time as racking the bullet. It's poetic justice that is now part of the evidence to convict him as well as him not finding the phone either that was so incriminating for him. So I think the phone and the bullet were likely covered by the clothes. The ones that belonged to Abbey that he couldn't then fit on Libby. Anyway, wherever they were, both items were found at the crime scene and thankfully are his downfall.

Muddy and bloody I am sure he was. He could have got some off in the creek but no way could he have got it all off.
Won't the bullet have his fingerprints on it too?
 
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I can't offer on the bullet but known it was at the scene, I thought between the girls but I know it was not found when the girls were found right?

I do not agree that the bullet science is nonsense. It is what defense experts, defense atrys. and overly pro defendant types say. It may not be as perfect as solid DNA but I'm not sure I'd even say that. And in this case add the fact he was there and that it matched his gun and did not EXCLUDE his gun just at minimum.

I am going to look for something I watched on it to link but who knows who will even bother watching it but just like defense "experts" and prosecution experts in other things thee are far different opinions. Of course news, etc. wants anything that causes questions.... Like the Os did.
I don't agree either. They took a bullet and racked it thru RA's gun and it made the same marks as found on the bullet at the crime scene. That's how they matched it to him. It is for his defense to argue why it doesn't match. Can't wait to hear how they dismiss it.
 
0/27/2023Order Issued
Court notes filings by former Attorney Rozzi on October 25, 2023, and takes no action. Attorney Rozzi withdrew from this matter on October 19, 2023, and is no longer counsel of record. These filings, therefore, are ordered stricken from the record. Clerk of the Court ordered to remove the pleadings from the electronic case file and the Chronological Case Summary as being filed in error.
Noticed:
McLeland, Nicholas Charles
Noticed:
Allen, Richard M.
Order Signed:
10/27/2023
10/27/2023Order Issued
The Court has received requests for media coverage of the October 31, 2023, 9:00 a.m. hearing from the following media outlets: NewsNation, Law and Crime, Court TV, and Channel 13 WTHR. In light of the unauthorized filming and broadcasting of pre-hearing activities in the Courtroom on October 19, 2023, the Court denies these requests in full.
Noticed:
McLeland, Nicholas Charles
Noticed:
Allen, Richard M.
Order Signed:
10/27/2023
10/27/2023Order Issued
Defendant remains entitled to Count-appointed counsel. Court appoints Attorney Robert Scremin and Attorney William S. Lebrato as Contract Public Defenders to represent the defendant. Counsel ordered to enter their appearances as Public Defenders on behalf of the Defendant.
Judicial Officer:
Gull, Frances -SJ
Noticed:
McLeland, Nicholas Charles
Noticed:
Allen, Richard M.
Order Signed:
10/27/2023
10/31/2023Hearing
Session:
10/31/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ


Court appoints Attorney Robert Scremin and Attorney William S. Lebrato as Contract Public Defenders to represent the defendant. Counsel ordered to enter their appearances as Public Defenders on behalf of the Defendant.
We have New Defense Counsel announced by the Court
 
So the leaker is known and even there is an interview out there by him, etc. about working with this law firm, etc. earlier this year. I am going to guess some or most here know who he is and who the suicided guy is. I don't.

So all news and podcasters and other talking heads and attys etc. are talking of it but do not name... But they know and say every single thing and hint around it to tell but won't name. I find that incredibly ridiculous and I know, I know, they are being responsible by not naming or are in fear of the court or ruining the case would be my guess as to why most would say this is, but that doesn't hold water because they are doing everything BUT naming them to point to or indicate who they are.

I awoke this morning of and on for a few hour kind of in and out of sleep with this case bothering the heck out of me. I wasn't really awake, all know this type of "sleep", would doze back off, etc. and dream on this case or more on like trying to make sense of what is wrong here... Took me by surprise because I barely get time to keep up, have plenty of my own to worry about you'd think would be what my subconscious self would be worried about more and trying to work out first, and would not have said it was "bothering" me any worse than anything else or any case, etc.

Alas NO, I had no great revelations...

What the defense has done and how far they went and RISKED their careers is certainly one thing. I feel as though there is some bigger war being waged or competition and I am having trouble believing they went this far out for their client or because they believe in his innocence.

But on the part of just the case, forgetting all that, I keep coming back to what they didn't say... And what it is they need thrown out with the warrant. Of course all think it is the bullet but in the same breath they and some others keep knocking that science as nothing so they sure went ALL OUT and again risked careers over that... I am pretty sure they said there is no DNA placing Allen and nothing was found on his phones, don't quote me, or something like that. Knowing how each side ONLY takes what benefits them to put in their filings, etc. and carefully leaves out anything that hurts what they claim, that keeps coming to me. I feel for one (maybe I hope but think I feel by wording) that something/s were found that they are skirting? Photos? Clothing? I just don't think it is all about the bullet.... Besides we already KNOW about the bullet. I get they'd hope jurors would never know or hear about it but again that just doesn't seem like enough reason for what they did here.

Beyond that though it feels like something else goes on in this case, like there is some undercurrent, some unknown, some huge battle or cover for something or someone and I sure do NOT mean Os. Or is it just ego or fame? Seems like more and possibly something on BOTH SIDES. It COULD be just the Kline thing, pedo ring thing on the pros side OR I just get that feeling as they DO keep their mouths shut as to all of that AND of anything they've found with the warrant...With the defense side though there was just a SUICIDE (allegedly)! They write a crazy filing and then release photos to it seems EVERY reporter and podcaster in this nation or they get dispersed that fast somehow to ALL. I can't understand the risk of career other than for one, they were that SURE they wouldn't be found out and would have a "win", that they thought themselves smarter than others. HOWEVER, it REEKS more of desperation. All of us and others think that desperation is all about Allen's confessions, the bullet, etc. but did they REALLY go this far for him and for that? It doesn't feel like all of it for me, it feels like more personal need or fear to go that big. Of course it could always be one of the age old reasons of MONEY. Even an attorney may be blinded by a huge offer of money and fame and start picturing a life with both... That doesn't really feel like it though either. Who KNOWS! Anyhow it was heavy on my mind this morning in sleep and my brain apparently wanting to find some logic in all of this case where little seems present right now.

I think too is just the amount of corrupt and unethical behavior we are seeing from attorneys in these cases lately. I am pretty certain Skye Lazarro lied for Kouri Richins and she should have dropped her arse like a hot coal so with her too, is it about fame? Winning? At all costs? I do not believe, I am sorry, they would throw their careers away for one client, same in this case, OR CARE THAT MUCH for a client. We have of course Murdaugh and at least one other attorney buddy of his (I don't doubt there are others). We have the attorneys here. Do not even get me started on old Lie-rus Eytan OR her partner and their "connections". Morphew. Frazee. One of their buddies in Stauch even. A lot of corrupt in CO.

Anywhooo I don't know. I haven't caught up with a single thread and posts and probably won't. So know that this will just land where it does, just my thoughts, without my even knowing what current conversation is. Two days off but not a single day off because they are booked with huge things to deal with. MAY steal a minute here and there today or tonight and tomorrow night but not even sure of that.

One closing remark. Silencing this suicide and any investigation or who it is etc. is going to blow up. While the pics and the suicide may relate to this case, it is a SEPARATE case all on its own also or both are. They have taken too long already. it needs to be addressed to some extent to the public imo. Whose jurisdiction is the "alleged" suicide? I am sure some here likely know where the man was from. Local?
I don't think it matters who the suicidee is but you ask "what else do they have" as evidence. I will list what IMO I think they may have in addition to the bullet and the video and audio evidence.

1. Cat hairs. (Didn't they dig up his cat?)
2. His confession he was there at the right times.
3. Video of his car coming and going past the Hoosier store.
4. The jacket and clothes he wore.
5. A souvenir he took from the CS, possibly an article of clothing.
6. His phone data. (Checking a stock ticker plus location data )
7. Recorded confessions to his wife and mother.
8. The Kline connection, setting up the meeting etc.

I think his best bet is a plea deal.
 
So funny/not funny to see that today Gull wiped everything old Defense filed yesterday off her public Docket, provided HER version in an Order on the Docket, removed Old Defense appearance on the Docket and entered an order for the New Defense Counsels.

Rozzi better get busy with his emergency Appeals, b/c Gull has pulled anchor and this new ship roster is taking off.
 
Late yesterday afternoon, Court posted a boatload of orders, disqualified and removed Baldwin/Rozzi from the docket entirely; she has blocked them from their ability to file documents on the case.

also, hooray for sunshine laws.

Gull's inexperience or rustiness or whatever ... is evident.

She could have made all the same decisions without having the case go into the dumpster. She didn't. She became vindictive.
Advance planning to publicly shame them (knowing she was firing their asses and setting up cameras to create a threat big enough to avoid any objection and/or hearings over the D's removal) is circus stuff. Not a high enough bar for any court, let alone a double murder.

If - in fact - the Defense was tainted, she just walked into the taint and rubbed it all over herself, the Prosecution, and the entire case.

Spankings all-around from Old Queen O here. :fryingpan:
I feel so sorry for the families of the victims having to put up with all this BS and shenanigans.
 
I don't believe either the O thing but do believe the bodies were staged. I don't think they were a natural fall and die pose where they died. The branches are another thing but I DO believe Allen posed the girls. I agree with you on some, a lot actually, and of course none of us know, but I don't see how you think the girls died in these poses. IF Emu's guy is telling truth, and that is a big IF, Abby looked peaceful but when asked about Libby he said and acted like unsure but thought her eyes were open and couldn't say peaceful etc. which led a viewer to assume Abby's eyes were closed. Well I can TELL you from witnessing deathbed deaths of too many in my own family that means it is every likely Allen (or whoever the perp is) closed Abby's yes before too long after death but never did the same for Libby. THIS COMES FROM ME and where our family was in SUCH grief as we went through a death we had never known what day it would come and all left the room upset beyond what can be imagined from anyone who has not been through such just to take a breath. and you can't go back and close the eyes after not too long. I could share more but hard memories PLUS personal but I can say that that remark from Emu's guy who probably doesn't know **** about that made me think he took care with Abby but not with Libby. That of course is IF he is sharing truth about the photos he saw and he also says others must have seen or been sent different ones than he had, etc., etc. Makes it all a bit suspect. I may have actually watched more of that video than emu even did.

But the mileage some podcasters AND news are getting out of this is understandable but sickening since they DO NOT that i've heard yet here or elsewhere give the O message these bodies and staging sent. As Emu said, why can't they get an O guy or expert to explain to us what this says in O-ism? Nor did this podcaster apparently look it up or have anything. He implied he did and just kind of said as if being fair that people needed to look for themselves as to what runes they thought they were AND implied he knew. He doesn't know sh*t imo that was his way of doing such a show. he never found sh*t nor llooked up sh*t. No one has. WHERE is this MESSAGE and what symbols are they and what does the staging mean? NADA. The ONLY thing to date that anyone tried to say or show was that joke of an F on a tree.

HERE Is an idea. Let's get the guards who are Os to interpret the message and make a deal not on murder but just interpreting some OTHER O's symbols and staging. Hahahahaha. FIRST I doubt they know O runes and SECOND if they did, nothing here matches them or the entire media and podcasters would be placing it all side by side in thier shows and research to SHOW US ALL and NO ONE IS.

NO ONE. NOT MSM not the podcasters that are believing this defense sh*t. NO ONE.

NOTHING BUT that "F" has been put out there and by the way if it was an "F" tell me putting it together with the bodies and sticks what the message is? There ISN'T one. I DO think there IS in that RA tried to muddle things but part was also is sick fantasy. Oh emu's guy mentioned a possible asterisk and a crown, at very different times and not in any relation. If this was Os and an O plan and group then an O could interpret the total message and name the other symbols and meanings.

Yeah, I know, I am coming off quite a week. Rambling and defusing to try to relax for the few minutes I will get before another week. I would like to have worded better and made it more specific but I think there are parts in here that some will get what I mean.

There have been NO comparisons other than the letter F to Os and we ALL have the letter F in our lives EVEN if it WAS an F. Wow, that's a huge boom. NOT. It is almost laughable in fact.
F to O's I say as well LOL.
 
Huh, planted? No, but if you remember the OJ trial, where detectives
swore that the crime scene was contained, no unneccessary pers
tainted it... then that defence brings the video from across the road
proving there was a virtual conga-line of random LE idiots visiting to
stickybeak the scene....
Just how many & who visited that Delphi crime scene? Did strike-a
-pose Leazenby fail to keep a record of that? Do all his deputies
have that 9mm weapon, or do any carry a .40 cal? The prosecutors
made much of the fact that the Delphi LE are issued 9mm handguns,
but what do the Indiana DNR get issued with? I tried to ascertain this
point months back but couldn't find anything on the internet that clarifies
this. I know many of the nearby States issue their Game Warden types
with .40 cal handguns, for the bear, mountain lion, pigs... sure Indiana
might not have too many of those animals but they sure have deer..
deer in rut are sure dangerous, an antler in the gut will convince anyone
of that... so we know Indiana DNR were helping with the search in the
beginning, did any of them attend the crime scene? DUN whatever-his-
name was apparently failed to property record RA's name when he
talked to RA, that doesn't exactly suggest the DNR are particlarly
competant in the LE part of their function.
Even if the bullet didn't fall from a DNR magazine, that crime scene is
in a hollow, maybe someone in the past practiced their shooting there
and dropped a round, maybe someone carrying a .40 cal walked through
there way in the past, saw a buck, pulled out his .40 cal handgun,
wasn't sure if it had a round in the chamber, cocked it, round gets hand
ejected from the chamber...and there it lays. Impausible? Deer like
to be where they can keep an eye on anything sneaking up on them, in
a hollow anything that comes is instantly skylined for them... read about
when the bodies were discovered, it's findable, the guy said he came
upon deer, stopped (in alarm and fear?), then lowered his eyes and saw
the bodies on the ground closer to him - so deer certainly are known
to be about that hollow. Did someone else, armed, possibly years back,
also come upon deer, with fear and alarm?
And what do we know from the memorandum accompanying the
Franks Hearing request? The prosecution has provided only one picture
of this bullet so far (I gather perhaps the photo of it upon discovery in/on
the ground)... lot of questions a good defense should have thought to
ascertain by now, such as what is the brand/possible lot designation of
the bullet, does the brand/possible lot match the bullets RA had for his
gun, is the brand/possible lot from years old manufacture possibly years
before RA ever bought his handgun, in how many other criminal cases
has the evidence tech given evidence relating to hand-ejection of a
round, his qualifications.
Re the crime scene there is a very good video of the whole area taken by a press helicopter that shows all the police in the cemetery.

The guy who saw the deer was across the creek I believe when the movement of the deer caught his eye. He then spotted below them the actual scene where the girls were, I believe is how it was described.
 
Huh, planted? No, but if you remember the OJ trial, where detectives
swore that the crime scene was contained, no unneccessary pers
tainted it... then that defence brings the video from across the road
proving there was a virtual conga-line of random LE idiots visiting to
stickybeak the scene....
Just how many & who visited that Delphi crime scene? Did strike-a
-pose Leazenby fail to keep a record of that? Do all his deputies
have that 9mm weapon, or do any carry a .40 cal? The prosecutors
made much of the fact that the Delphi LE are issued 9mm handguns,
but what do the Indiana DNR get issued with? I tried to ascertain this
point months back but couldn't find anything on the internet that clarifies
this. I know many of the nearby States issue their Game Warden types
with .40 cal handguns, for the bear, mountain lion, pigs... sure Indiana
might not have too many of those animals but they sure have deer..
deer in rut are sure dangerous, an antler in the gut will convince anyone
of that... so we know Indiana DNR were helping with the search in the
beginning, did any of them attend the crime scene? DUN whatever-his-
name was apparently failed to property record RA's name when he
talked to RA, that doesn't exactly suggest the DNR are particlarly
competant in the LE part of their function.
Even if the bullet didn't fall from a DNR magazine, that crime scene is
in a hollow, maybe someone in the past practiced their shooting there
and dropped a round, maybe someone carrying a .40 cal walked through
there way in the past, saw a buck, pulled out his .40 cal handgun,
wasn't sure if it had a round in the chamber, cocked it, round gets hand
ejected from the chamber...and there it lays. Impausible? Deer like
to be where they can keep an eye on anything sneaking up on them, in
a hollow anything that comes is instantly skylined for them... read about
when the bodies were discovered, it's findable, the guy said he came
upon deer, stopped (in alarm and fear?), then lowered his eyes and saw
the bodies on the ground closer to him - so deer certainly are known
to be about that hollow. Did someone else, armed, possibly years back,
also come upon deer, with fear and alarm?
And what do we know from the memorandum accompanying the
Franks Hearing request? The prosecution has provided only one picture
of this bullet so far (I gather perhaps the photo of it upon discovery in/on
the ground)... lot of questions a good defense should have thought to
ascertain by now, such as what is the brand/possible lot designation of
the bullet, does the brand/possible lot match the bullets RA had for his
gun, is the brand/possible lot from years old manufacture possibly years
before RA ever bought his handgun, in how many other criminal cases
has the evidence tech given evidence relating to hand-ejection of a
round, his qualifications.
I guess we will hear all this at the trial. If and when they get a move on with it all.
 
So funny/not funny to see that today Gull wiped everything old Defense filed yesterday off her public Docket, provided HER version in an Order on the Docket, removed Old Defense appearance on the Docket and entered an order for the New Defense Counsels.

Rozzi better get busy with his emergency Appeals, b/c Gull has pulled anchor and this new ship roster is taking off.
Someone needs to make sure this court is functioning ethically and legally. I have zero patience for people screwing up murder trials based on poor ethics.
 
Late yesterday afternoon, Court posted a boatload of orders, disqualified and removed Baldwin/Rozzi from the docket entirely; she has blocked them from their ability to file documents on the case.

also, hooray for sunshine laws.

Gull's inexperience or rustiness or whatever ... is evident.

She could have made all the same decisions without having the case go into the dumpster. She didn't. She became vindictive.
Advance planning to publicly shame them (knowing she was firing their asses and setting up cameras to create a threat big enough to avoid any objection and/or hearings over the D's removal) is circus stuff. Not a high enough bar for any court, let alone a double murder.

If - in fact - the Defense was tainted, she just walked into the taint and rubbed it all over herself, the Prosecution, and the entire case.

Spankings all-around from Old Queen O here. :fryingpan:
That also means if like WI that they cant look tat the case online with the access parties get which is different than ours. Personally I say good.

I of course as always haven't read everything nor watched all so not up on all of it but I thought they put Gull on because of her experience but could be wrong. Respectfully, I don't know that I agree with your on her vindictiveness. The public knew almost as quick as she likely did of their Franks filing and went insane and did the same over the leak of the photos and then subsequent suicide. There was a DEATH. She GAVE them a chance to not be publicly shamed and I believe had they not stepped down (and only ONE DID and she allowed that), either way the public deserved to see what their repercussions would be because this sh*t was serious and they are lawyers on top of it, supposed to have ethics and here we have two that apparently do not even come close to having ethics. I may change my opinion as I come to know more but right now, for me, they are the bad guys. And imo THEY derailed the case. They also had been warned before and they were not taken off. I also am guessing they have more proof it was them than maybe we know... Could be wrong...

I haven't read the most recent orders by her or anything but had a day off that as usual wasn't a day off and traveled 5 hours or more round trip and worked in between the two drives. No not a fun based travel trip, I NEVER basically get a day off to just do the normal things we all need to do. I did get to see my oldest sister who I hadn't seen in awhile
she helped with the "chores" so that was nice although I'd have rather been able to just ask her to lunch but my life is still full of tons of things to take care of that aren't related to daily living and chores which I don't get time for ever it seems.

Anyhow for me, what Gull did depends on what the defense did or didn't do but even lax security won't fly for me because I won't believe it a second time. They had to know the first time or figure out or suspect where the first time came from or who EVEN if not involved and sooooo I don't buy it PLUS they never should have allowed it to be lax again.

These other two have seen probably seen every single bit of discovery on both sides and KNOW IT ALL. Even though maybe purportedly done for Allen, he too has a right to have his stuff with his lawyer confidential. This act was BAD.

But to be fair we don't know all the facts.
 

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