LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *GUILTY*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

1581272168478.png

Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


1581272119747.png


 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes i think the 100 miles was likely ambiguous and could be taken as daily or a one off but it actually was intended to mean a one off transportation to the Carroll County area for sequestration purposes.

This is why I prefer the J&C reporting as clearer, simpler and unambigous - see below.

"The panel will now head to Carroll County to sequester in a hotel through the end of the trial, which is slated to continue through Nov. 15. Opening statements start Friday, Oct. 18."
I'm guessing they will stay in Lafayette (Tippecanoe County) somewhere. Articles seem to say Carroll County but I'm not sure there are suitable and convenient rooms there.

As an aside, I would lose my ever loving mind if I got sequestered. That sounds like torture.
 
Yes they did say that. I don't know what the D are playing at and it looks like they are trying to taint the jury pool before the trial even begins. At present the gag order is still in effect isn't it ?

I guess it is also possible she could have Libby's or Kelsey's hair in her hands if there was some sort of transfer from the car or the clothes or elsewhere.
The D only gives and only ever had selective parts they want heard without the rest of context and the story.

But even aside from it they aren't giving the real picture, Abby was wearing initially an old shirt of her moms, Anna said as much when people back when thought she was dressed up as if meeting someone(!), that it was some old shirt of hers. We also know Abby either redressed herself or the perp did, and we can only go again by the D I think it was, as the P has shared little, that Abby was not fully in her own clothes, we hear of two bras, hers and Libby's and I think Libby's sweatshirt was it not? My memory fails a bit but didn't Kelsey also give one if not both a sweatshirt...

Just take clothing being put back on Abby over her head and over her arms and having a hair "in her hand" and who knows if that is definitive, no other detail, was hand clenched was it just laying there, was it caught in a fingernail, etc.? It's not hard to buy there are going to be transfer hairs and even beyond those I just mentioned from anyone in Kelsey's car, and more.

I detest they say one little thing like this with absolutely nothing else or context and what news and YTers, SOME, NOT ALL, the ones that are don't surprise me a bit, one could predict it. Court TV, MacDonald, Grizzly, and I could add to that...

Do they really care about justice? I don't think so. Just like those who ran with the O thing. This is milder because all got very very worried after the leaks and more but still is going on.

And of course those that want to believe something else latch onto it as if it is meaningful, some single remark without context or explanation by the D.

It's a nonthing to me until all gets tried and heard, but I am ticked this was even allowed with jurors who again have never sat at trial yet nor were seated yet.

it's sensationalism by the D and had its intended goal. Yet they wouldn'want to influence the public or jury pool at that point would they... Of course not... Have they ever shown such before? Oh my, always and throughout LMAO.

For Abby to have had a perp's hair clutched in her hand, she'd have had to had him close and fought back or tried to. If it was just on an open hand, it still depends on where, how, etc. and context. It's a ridiculous statement without further explanation and given for a reason clearly.

I'd be surprised if these girls didn't have more than one transfer hair on them somewhere on their bodies or clothing. And that's what the D does too, picks and chooses. How many others are there or was that the only anywhere on either girl or their clothing....? They pick and choose and one always has to look at what are they NOT saying...

Jmo. It does't phase me one bit other than being ticked such is allowed to go on and the ones making it a thing out there.Again in a milder way than O filing days and leak days but they feel somewhat safe as this came from a PUBLIC jury process right. Not some leak...

Jmo and just the post I jumped off on that opinion from in response to the hair thing.
 
If it looks like him, then why do they want it excluded. My guess is when both pictures are presented, it enables the defense to ask about the second picture and that would allow them to get testimony from KK.
why would the second picture enable the D questioning KK?? The second sketch has nothing at all to do with KK.
 
I'm guessing they will stay in Lafayette (Tippecanoe County) somewhere. Articles seem to say Carroll County but I'm not sure there are suitable and convenient rooms there.

As an aside, I would lose my ever loving mind if I got sequestered. That sounds like torture.
Yes I mentioned the possibility of Lafayette. As we know from RL, it is only about 20 minutes away right?
 
Thanks, i hadn't seen this yet. Could be the last time we see the sketches.

So they will be in a hotel the whole time, as I thought.

The stray hair in A's hand could have come off L's clothes or the borrowed sweatshirt from K or K's vehicle, or from the overnight stay at L's house, so i don't see that as a problem.

Also, why are the jury seeing the defendant handcuffed? Isn't that prejudicial? Is that normal?

From the J&C link-

The panel will now head to Carroll County to sequester in a hotel through the end of the trial, which is slated to continue through Nov. 15. Opening statements start Friday, Oct. 18.

The seating capped off a day filled with surprise revelations, including Carroll County prosecutors asking to bar the defense from presenting prior sketches of potential suspects and the defense stating a hair found in Williams' hand did not match their client's.

Allen was charged in 2022 with two counts of murder and two counts of murder while kidnapping in the killings of the girls. Prosecutors allege the girls were walking along trails east of the city on Feb. 13, 2017, when they were forced off and led to a creek before being killed.

The allegation was just the first in new developments revealed Tuesday.

75687692007-untitled-design-20241015-t-095443537.png

Police released two composite sketches during the course of the investigation into the murders of two Delphi girls.
PROVIDED
In a motion filed Tuesday, the state requested the court to bar widely publicized sketches of possible suspect(s) from the trial. Two sketches appearing to show different men were released by authorities during the Delphi investigation, one in July 2017 and the other in April 2019. The drawings, along with cellphone video captured on German's phone, are among the few glimpses of the suspect released to the public.

In the motion, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland argued “a composite sketch is not relevant, admission would result in undue prejudice, confuse or mislead the jury, or is impermissible hearsay, and the witnesses who participated in the preparation of composite sketch(s) will not be presented by the State for the purpose of in-court identification of the defendant.”

A ruling about the sketches had not been made at the time of this article's publication.

At the start of Tuesday, the case needed two alternate jurors out of Allen County to complete the 16-member jury. Three jurors were then dismissed, dwindling the number to 11. One was dismissed over health concerns, another juror dismissed cited childcare issues. It's unclear why the third was excused.

Day 1: 14 of 16 jurors chosen in Delphi murders trial; selection resumes Tuesday

By 3:30 p.m., the final jury selection was made.

Allen appeared in court handcuffed, wearing a baby blue button-up shirt, khaki pants and glasses on top of his head.

More: Delphi murder case jurors will face unimaginable pressure, life-changing decision

The panel is being chosen from roughly 300 Allen County people summoned as prospective jurors. Special Judge Frances Gull previously decided the group should come from another county versus selecting from Delphi, a town of 2,961 people, to ensure impartiality and Allen's right to a fair trial.

(This story was updated to change or add a photo or video and new information.)

Contact IndyStar reporter Sarah Nelson at sarah.nelson@indystar.com


21 hours ago
Is the jury seeing him handcuffed or the reporters and gallery are? They usually come in in them and the jury doesn't come in until all is settled. And they cuff a prisoner to remove him after the jury leaves the courtroom. Again it isn't clear if they mean he was handcuffed throughout the process and that's on the reporters. Going to be fair though in that yes they are dealing with having to report with nothing but notes or memory BUT they can have someone in the office read through something and realize it is unclear what this means. I she cuffed all day in front of jurors or brought in in cuffs as most are which are taken off, etc. before the jurors come into the room. They CAN DO better. Its' not even trial yet...

Have we heard anything about the types of questions being asked of all jurors, etc. from any reporter, just even the general ones or the general ones the judge asks? I haven't seen anything covering such... It's already pretty abysmal imo.
 
The D only gives and only ever had selective parts they want heard without the rest of context and the story.

But even aside from it they aren't giving the real picture, Abby was wearing initially an old shirt of her moms, Anna said as much when people back when thought she was dressed up as if meeting someone(!), that it was some old shirt of hers. We also know Abby either redressed herself or the perp did, and we can only go again by the D I think it was, as the P has shared little, that Abby was not fully in her own clothes, we hear of two bras, hers and Libby's and I think Libby's sweatshirt was it not? My memory fails a bit but didn't Kelsey also give one if not both a sweatshirt...

Just take clothing being put back on Abby over her head and over her arms and having a hair "in her hand" and who knows if that is definitive, no other detail, was hand clenched was it just laying there, was it caught in a fingernail, etc.? It's not hard to buy there are going to be transfer hairs and even beyond those I just mentioned from anyone in Kelsey's car, and more.

I detest they say one little thing like this with absolutely nothing else or context and what news and YTers, SOME, NOT ALL, the ones that are don't surprise me a bit, one could predict it. Court TV, MacDonald, Grizzly, and I could add to that...

Do they really care about justice? I don't think so. Just like those who ran with the O thing. This is milder because all got very very worried after the leaks and more but still is going on.

And of course those that want to believe something else latch onto it as if it is meaningful, some single remark without context or explanation by the D.

It's a nonthing to me until all gets tried and heard, but I am ticked this was even allowed with jurors who again have never sat at trial yet nor were seated yet.

it's sensationalism by the D and had its intended goal. Yet they wouldn'want to influence the public or jury pool at that point would they... Of course not... Have they ever shown such before? Oh my, always and throughout LMAO.

For Abby to have had a perp's hair clutched in her hand, she'd have had to had him close and fought back or tried to. If it was just on an open hand, it still depends on where, how, etc. and context. It's a ridiculous statement without further explanation and given for a reason clearly.

I'd be surprised if these girls didn't have more than one transfer hair on them somewhere on their bodies or clothing. And that's what the D does too, picks and chooses. How many others are there or was that the only anywhere on either girl or their clothing....? They pick and choose and one always has to look at what are they NOT saying...

Jmo. It does't phase me one bit other than being ticked such is allowed to go on and the ones making it a thing out there.Again in a milder way than O filing days and leak days but they feel somewhat safe as this came from a PUBLIC jury process right. Not some leak...

Jmo and just the post I jumped off on that opinion from in response to the hair thing.
And the gag order is meaningless if they can just come out with anything like this that they want too. In the UK they can only report on a daily basis once the trial starts. Not all this lawyer leaking stuff to the press whenever they like.
 
Yes but the dates they were drawn with the witnesses were before the video came out, i believe. Not completely sure though. There were other sketches too that were never released. What about them?

I still don't see the grounds for appeal though. If anything, it was good for RA for there to be more than one sketch issued.
There were other sketches not released? And if so, these days who knows, can they call it work product because otherwise it is discoverable, or a D would claim exculpatory possibly if such is known. Even though sketches when one doesn't even know who is the suspect or who they are after are TOOLS.. So maybe work product... Which is excluded.

I'm just wondering where you heard that, not sure I knew there are other sketches never put out. Do you mean works in progress where the people said, that's not quite right...? That would be different imo.

Just now slowly starting to read some and catch up some. Still winding down, end of "my" week, not the work week by the work schedule, but "my week". So kind of trying to change from long work week, transitioning to yes, I can take some time, stay up for a bit, but have to do this, that, check this, that.. Takes a bit to change mode is what I mean. Did some YT, did some texting with a friend unrelated to anything online or crime, texted daughter, etc. Just catching up with all I don't get to all week.

So just curious what you mean about other sketches that exist not released?
 
Article with the new BG sketch in the background. How would it work to get this thrown out?


before their brutal killings.
On the wall behind him is a police sketch released by Indiana State Police in 2019 of the man suspected of murdering the teenage best friends. Mr Allen bears some likeness to the drawing.
The selfie was posted by Mr Allen’s wife on Facebook in December 2021 – the same month investigators issued a fresh appeal urging members of the public to come forward with information about an online catfishing account thought to be tied to the murders.
Now, 10 months later, Mr Allen has been arrested and charged with Libby and Abby’s brutal deaths.

Recommended
The 50-year-old from Delphi was taken into custody on Wednesday and booked into Carroll County Jail. He has since been moved to a state facility for his own safety.
On Monday, Indiana State Police announced that he had been charged with two counts of murder. He has pleaded not guilty and is said to be refusing to cooperate with the investigation.
It is not clear what information has led to Mr Allen’s arrest now, more than five years on from the 2017 murders.
Officials would not rule out the possibility that other individuals were also involved in the teenagers’ brutal murders and, if so, vowed that they will also face charges.
The affidavit is currently under seal, with officials declining to provide additional details about the bombshell development in the high-profile case that has rocked the small, close-knit community of Delphi and gone unsolved for more than half a decade.
Family members of Libby welcomed the charges, with her sister writing on social media: “We got him.”

Richard Allen is seen posing for a smiling selfie in front of a police sketch of the killer

Richard Allen is seen posing for a smiling selfie in front of a police sketch of the killer (Supplied)
Before his sudden arrest, Mr Allen’s name was never publicly linked to the case.
At the time of the murders, Mr Allen would have been 44 years old. He appears to have no prior criminal record though jail records list him as also going by the alias of Craigh Ross Rentfrow.
The 50-year-old is a local resident of Delphi, the small, close-knit town of around 3,000 people.
His family home is less than a five-minute drive away from where the bodies of Libby and Abby were found, residing in a neighborhood southwest of the Monon High Bridge.
According to online records, Mr Allen has lived in Delphi there since at least 2006, and in Indiana his whole adult life.
Married to his wife Kathy with whom he shares an adult daughter, Mr Allen is a trained pharmacy technician, receiving his most recent pharmaceutical licence in February 2018 – one year on from the murders.
He currently works at the local CVS store – coming into contact with members of the community as part of his job.
Libby’s grandparents Mike and Becky Patty said that they recalled Mr Allen processing photos for them at the store.
CVS offered its condolences to the victim’s families and said it would cooperate with the investigation in any way it can.

Police sketches released in 2019 (left) and 2017 (right) in the search for the killer

Police sketches released in 2019 (left) and 2017 (right) in the search for the killer (Indiana State Police)
“As members of the Carroll County community, we remain devastated by these murders and our hearts go out to the German and Williams families,” the company said in a statement to local outlet WRTV.
“We are shocked and saddened to learn that one of our store employees was arrested as a suspect in these crimes. We stand ready to cooperate with the police investigation in any way we can.”
Local residents reacted with shock when news broke on Friday of his arrest, saying that he seemed “like a normal guy”.
“When I will go into CVS as a customer myself, he would say ‘do you need any help?’ I would be like ‘no’,” Chandler Underhill, the manager of the local Brick & Mortar Pub, where he said Mr Allen was a regular, told Fox59.
“Just like a normal guy that I’ve seen for the last couple years, not really thinking anything.”
Mr Underhill said that Mr Allen always seemed “normal” when he would come into the pub where he works.
“I would talk; he wouldn’t say much. He seems like a normal guy,” he said.
“One of my servers was telling me that he wouldn’t speak much.”
Libby’s grandfather told reporters on Monday that his granddaughter’s accused killer had been “hiding in plain sight” the whole time.
On 13 February 2017, Libby, 14, and Abby, 13, set off on a hike along the Monon High Bridge Trail in their hometown of Delphi.
During the walk, Libby posted a photo of her best friend walking along the Monon High Bridge. It was the last known photo of Abby before she was killed.
Later that day, the teenagers were reported missing when they failed to return to a spot where a family member was picking them up.

Richard Allen pictured in mugshot after arrest for Delphi murders

Richard Allen pictured in mugshot after arrest for Delphi murders (Indiana State Police)
The next day – Valentine’s Day 2017 – their bodies were discovered in a wooded area around half a mile off the trail.
For the last five years, no arrests were made and police remained tightlipped about the crime scene and how the girls died.
Investigators have long been searching for a man captured on Libby’s cellphone before she died.
A grainy video shows a man dressed in blue jeans, a blue jacket and a cap walking along the abandoned railroad bridge.
Investigators released a still image from the video and a chilling audio of the man telling the two girls: “Go down the hill.”
Prior to Mr Allen’s arrest, other names have fallen under suspicion but no one has ever been charged.
Investigators zeroed in on local man Ronald Logan back in 2017, according to a search warrant application filed by an FBI agent back then before being obtained by podcast The Murder Sheet and shared with The Independent this May.
The partly redacted document reveals law enforcement wanted to carry out a search on Mr Logan’s home which was just 1,400 feet from where the girls’ bodies were found.
He had also allegedly lied about where he was at the time that the teenagers disappeared, claiming he was out of the area with a friend when cellphone location data actually placed him in the area around the trail.
The document gave further details about the brutality of the murders, revealing that they were believed to have been killed elsewhere before the murderer moved and staged their bodies at the scene.
The girls had lost “a lot” of blood during their deaths and had been killed by some type of weapon – with the word redacted – the document states.
The murderer would have been covered in the victims’ blood in the aftermath of the slayings due to the “large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene”, it reads.
The killer was also believed to have taken some sort of souvenir from the scene.

Libby German (left) and Abby Williams (right) pictured together

Libby German (left) and Abby Williams (right) pictured together (Facebook)
Mr Logan was never charged and he died in 2020.
In December, investigators also honed in on Kegan Anthony Kline, a 27-year-old man with addresses in Kokomo and Peru whose home was searched on suspicion of child porn charges just two weeks after the 2017 murders.
Kline had allegedly confessed to investigators to using the fake social media account @anthony_shots to groom underage girls online and get them to send him nude photos and to arrange to meet him.
The account is believed to have been used to contact one of the victims around the time of her death.
Kline denied any involvement in the murders.
Indiana State Police announced details of the fake account to the public and urged anyone who had communicated with, met, or attempted to meet the individual posing as @anthony_shots to come forward with information.
It is not clear if this is tied in any way to Mr Allen’s arrest or what may have led to his arrest now – more than five years on from the 2017 slayings.

More about

Delphi murdersIndiana State PoliceIndiana
It';s a bit humorous that this morning I think it was, I thought of mentioning the picture of him in the bar in front of the poster, it came to mind immediately. Then I get home and see friendly back and forth on it. This morning I thought as you probably did, how many razzed him about looking just like this, but I also thought of how some who see him as just some what aged nobody would just never think that could ever be him and the posters had been up for how long... I thought of the kick he probably got over standing in front of it with no one having a clue or was it because they all did kid him about looking a bit like him....

I have read ahead a bit before I started some posts and then tried to go back to the last to not get lost and know you said something on that order, that maybe they were kidding him about looking like him, and also the fact this man is silent, even was in his normal ife, very non-communicative. Or at least since the murders, worried about voice perhaps. BUT I think he is that way overall and has always been. I think he has a very hidden who he really is. Always, always watch out for the silent ones I've learned in my life. I don't mean anyone who doesn't say much is bad, but if no communication... I've listened to shrinks and armchair shrinks say he was a dependent personality, on his wife and mom... I'm no shrink but I don't think that's who he was at all but once he went to far and got himself in a real pickle and is facing some ultra serious sh*t, yeah, he probably wants them badly and not to lose them...

Wandering a bit. I have an opinion of him though based on a lot of things...

Back to the sketches. I almost mentioned him standing in front of the one at the bar this morning but then thought better of it because I realized as is going to happen as this trial proceeds too, that some of us will read it one way and some will read it another way. As we are all going to probably do with anything.

I'd think most of us realize that and can see it already, because that's how it's been for some time now when anything heats up or something happens. This case divides or can. Read and this one. I bow out when it gets that way mostly and have here too when all is getting to be just the same old cycling, the other I have too but was never that into either, but know plenty. This one though, I've followed from day one. I will dance out when things are just getting redundant and such, but with trial, I won't.

I'm only saying trial looks as if it WILL happen and it's an emotional and invested case with various interpretations of all the sh*t that has gone on in this one.

It is going to happen and already is. I didn't mention the pic at the bar in front of the sketch this morning after thinking about it because I knew depending on where anyone is at with the case it could be interpreted differently and yet none of us really know the deal there... So I decided not to.

I do think, and always do, that we all want justice.

And I also think there's tons we don't know and it is going to come probably not accurately and not fully and sporadically from media having to handwrite and already getting things wrong or ambiguous and there isn't always going to be agreement nor is what is reported maybe always going to be correct...

I don't know what I think on the sketches. I've said leave them, they can be explained and let the jurors decide, but in the same breath in thinking more on it, in a case when one doesn't have the perp, you may have three various people someone has seen around that time... Or cars, etc. So it isn't really meaningful either....? I can be undecided, and I am. You when you haven't apprehended or going to look for any car someone saw near where a missing child was, any person, anyone in the area, whether walking, etc. For some reason I'm thinking of the Michael Vaughn case... A car, a person walking or jogging wasn't it, you put it all out if you think it is someone people really saw in the area... So it isn't indicative of what they think necessarily, you are just seeing if this gets some tips, or if that does. In that way, the sketches are not that important...

Again, I don't always have an opinion and I'd really like to know more about how such is looked at by law, in cases, and the arguments both ways... Because I can look at it both ways... Not in defense favor but then on the other hand, what's the big deal. Let the P just explain it was a tool... I don't KNOW.

But who in that state wouldn't have seen these sketches? Don't get me wrong, I mean there can be people in any state that never see such in their own state nor even know much about a big case that happened in their state...

As Tresir said, how do you though just eliminate them either...

I personally don't think they are that important so I don't see the worry about such either. Imo and that of many first sketch is BG and is RA. One is a video by Libby and the other comes from the girls in my opinion to their best recollection, and it's uncanny how the sketch pretty much matches BG...
 
Is the jury seeing him handcuffed or the reporters and gallery are? They usually come in in them and the jury doesn't come in until all is settled. And they cuff a prisoner to remove him after the jury leaves the courtroom. Again it isn't clear if they mean he was handcuffed throughout the process and that's on the reporters. Going to be fair though in that yes they are dealing with having to report with nothing but notes or memory BUT they can have someone in the office read through something and realize it is unclear what this means. I she cuffed all day in front of jurors or brought in in cuffs as most are which are taken off, etc. before the jurors come into the room. They CAN DO better. Its' not even trial yet...

Have we heard anything about the types of questions being asked of all jurors, etc. from any reporter, just even the general ones or the general ones the judge asks? I haven't seen anything covering such... It's already pretty abysmal imo.
I haven't seen anything about the juror questions. We know a psychic was barred from being a juror but thats about all we know.

Re cuffs, wasn't Lori in leg chains thru her trial?
 
There were other sketches not released? And if so, these days who knows, can they call it work product because otherwise it is discoverable, or a D would claim exculpatory possibly if such is known. Even though sketches when one doesn't even know who is the suspect or who they are after are TOOLS.. So maybe work product... Which is excluded.

I'm just wondering where you heard that, not sure I knew there are other sketches never put out. Do you mean works in progress where the people said, that's not quite right...? That would be different imo.

Just now slowly starting to read some and catch up some. Still winding down, end of "my" week, not the work week by the work schedule, but "my week". So kind of trying to change from long work week, transitioning to yes, I can take some time, stay up for a bit, but have to do this, that, check this, that.. Takes a bit to change mode is what I mean. Did some YT, did some texting with a friend unrelated to anything online or crime, texted daughter, etc. Just catching up with all I don't get to all week.

So just curious what you mean about other sketches that exist not released?
I will find them and post them. Maybe two or three others.

Here's the two i have seen.


 
Last edited:
I don't know what I think on the sketches. I've said leave them, they can be explained and let the jurors decide, but in the same breath in thinking more on it, in a case when one doesn't have the perp, you may have three various people someone has seen around that time... Or cars, etc. So it isn't really meaningful either....? I can be undecided, and I am. You when you haven't apprehended or going to look for any car someone saw near where a missing child was, any person, anyone in the area, whether walking, etc. For some reason I'm thinking of the Michael Vaughn case... A car, a person walking or jogging wasn't it, you put it all out if you think it is someone people really saw in the area... So it isn't indicative of what they think necessarily, you are just seeing if this gets some tips, or if that does. In that way, the sketches are not that important...
But jurors aren't always the sharpest tools, you know, lol!
I think it could be that since there seemed to be a lot of confusion surrounding the new composite sketch when it came out, the prosecution may just want to avoid the same with the jury.
 
LOL i just realised in that article about the pic in the bar they are saying he didn't speak much. I wonder why? And why did his wife get him to pose in front of that pic? He does have a very boyish face and skin, without that long beard, which he grew for a disguise IMO.

I wonder if they ribbed him that he looked like it?
I think he watched his speaking ever since the video came out with "down the hill".

But if i'm honest I think he is a quite uncommunicative man to begin with...

Beware of the silent ones who can't engage...

Jmo.

He definitely though was trying not to speak imo and did just as the pressers said, changed appearance, do you know someone who has....

I think the wife wore the pants. Internet shrinks and I think maybe Wala said he has a dependent personality. I am no shrink but I think a bit more than that... You can control a lot by your silence and refusal to communicate and engage with people...

Just an opinion based on life and no expertise... Another video that has always stood out to me is the mall one where his wife surprised him in the car... Another is the drunken back yard one... He is one that perhaps when drunk then he thinks he has a personality and is entertaining... In a drunken doofus type of way...

This is just based on a lot of things and no expertise just life. Still waters run deep.... I don't mean intellectually either...

Okay. I realize it is just based on what we've seen and not a whole life but based on what we've seen and instinct....

He's playing a game. And he would most definitely be, if he wasn't already, an SK... Not like I haven't said that before either.

Anyhow, it's just a personal opinion. I don't know that we will ever find out but if we ever do, I stand by this.

He has a committed wife who believes in the sanctity of marriage. Said recently through her attorney. Such types love that... They know through thick and thin.... No matter what they do... I am guessing this was the biggest test ever and he was going to lose mom and wife as to buying his sh*t any longer...

AGAIN, just a personal opinion. Nothing more. But based on a lot of what's been seen...

I'd love to see this man on the stand, won't happen, and communicating sober.... Responding, etc....

I've said before the things I await to hear, and it's all of it, but a lot of it is the wife, the interviews of her, daughter, etc. and what they had to say about that day, days before, day after. But I'd also like to hear HIM...

Of course defendants don't have to take the stand... And he won't. Sometimes I think it's a shame they don't have to...

I want to hear HIS interviews. Of course will we ever get to? This stuff had BETTER be accessible after this trial is over.

I'm behind as I didn't get caught up last night as was doing some other things.

But yeah, I look at it as not that anyone should have recognized him from the sketches (other than perhaps his wife), I think no one saw him as anyone that could do something like this and probably saw him as a very uninteresting individual, just a local married guy who worked and in his free time liked to get drunk at the local pub and shoot some pool, etc..

Or as you say they even razzed him about it but were so sure it could not be him that they just never seriously entertained it.
 
From Libby's Grandma 2 days ago.
😭



This brought rampant tears. It also angers me because I see in so many out there show nothing but concern re RA and it gets entirely forgotten what the families lost and have had to deal with and continue to have to. This trial will not be pleasant for them and this entire circus only added to it. The girls will never be back, they were TAKEN.

It happens in every case and every trial and lead up to trial, it becomes the defendant's show and all about the defendant's rights. WHERE are THEIRS? I'm serious.

They are also attending every pretrial hearing, etc. and have been for a long time now. We did as well.

It is one helluva hard road and toll on TOP of a murdered child, and this case is over the top as we all know so they've had it even BEYOND the normal awful road.

This was heartbreaking to read and she should be enjoying Ellie and Ellie adoring her but thanks to a murderous man, that will never be.

Strength to them, they are strong to have come this far but I guarantee it's had its toll. Add in not being able to say anything and having to stifle and it is the most unnatural and hard thing to do in the world at the worst time in life.

Anyhow, I hope everyone takes at least a minute to think about this and then.
 
Yeah i think it means they haven't and won't be asking the witnesses to identify him in court as the person they saw. That seems to indicate to me that they have not ever identified him from a lineup before then either. Possibly because he already indicated himself he was the guy they saw right? He himself already admits seeing the teenage girls at Freedom bridge and being on the bridge watching fish so essentially admits he was whom the witnesses saw.

What we don't know is whether he is also the guy then caught on Libby's phone? Logic says it was him otherwise there would have to be two bridge guys both wearing similar clothes and carrying a gun. The witnesses only saw one guy so it had to be RA.
Yeah I'm guessing since he IDd himself basically and because that kind of thing is more of a dramatic TV show thing, do you see the man you saw in the courtroom today and please point him out.

I don't know how common it is seven plus years later or in real life.

And of course they can't say if the video is RA, they saw a man/RA/BG in person. They could have been asked I'd think at some point along the years if they felt the BG video matched up to the man they saw, and perhaps THAT will be testified to or asked.

Already, I'm not real impressed with the reporting and the confusing reporting where they don't even double check how a sentence can be taken, or a paragraph.

And I'm steamed that this is how it has to be done and I'd just say we want to be careful in jumping onto anything reported because one already had who filed the sketch motion in their article as the defense had and that's a major screw up.

Just wait until it gets to be longer and far more involved days...

This is sooo archaic. Being like in kindergarten with a pencil and tablet (paper, not tech lol) as in days of yore (not today).

What do you do? Here's what I would do as there is little else they can. So hopefully the media seats are at least all together. I'd have say at least two doing notes and starting to catch all and then if they find themselves getting behind but can still hold and finish their thoughts and jotting them, they need to tap the shoulders of two more to take over while they finish their notes and quit listening to do so. And so on. SOME kind of a system. Then on any break or sidebar, all can note what they recall and catch up too with scribbling.

Having to even say that shows how absolutely asinine this is.

I've said it before and will again, there is NO earthly reason to not at least allow voice recorders.

Also repeating myself here, this had ALL better be accessible by the public after trial.

I am so not a fan of Gull with this decision and it certainly is not only because I want to hear it all, which I do of course. It is about transparency and the public has the right and for sure should when over to see and access this all. The exhibits the recorded interviews, the voice comparisons, all of it.

I thought of the fact they should honestly and I mean seriously try to find someone who can do shorthand but it isn't even taught any longer. However, I am pretty sure my sister could still do it and do it well. She's been retired a few years now but still worked around a boss that was old school that way at least she did until a few years ago and used it plenty when she was getting instructions or for her own notes. However, they aren't media and no guaranteed seats even if they found someone and even with that, one person doing that day in and day out would be a lot. It's a lost thing because no one needs to rely on it any longer in this day and age. Unless you have a judge like Gull... Or a boss like my sister had... Who still wanted to do it that way...

There is no need of course for shorthand because even if the internet went down, cameras went down, etc. there would still be battery operated voice recorders even if no power. However, those can't be used EITHER. And that's the extreme part of this decision that is over the top.

I am not always a fan of hers and this is one case where I am not. She is in essence trying to control reporting during the trial and I guess would rather haven them saying things from recall than being able to show it was said. I am hopeful the alternative sources do better than news has. MS and Aspen can tag off, etc. Assuming of course all get in.

Yeah a bit of a sideways rant/vent, because already this paragraph is quite unclear. As have been a few things already. And that's just during jury process/selection.

Tom I think scheduled his first live for tonight but he wasn't sure with jury selection through Wed if needed what would happen Thursday. We now know openings are Friday regardless but there may be some motions or rulings on them issued. I haven't looked but assume he will proceed with the show just in a catch up about the week so far. He called it day 1 of trial and so all his already scheduled shows each day will be a day off lol. He is a bit obsessed enough with accuracy lol, he may go change them all lol but if not, anyhow day 2 will actually be day 1 of trial (tomorrow) with opening statements, and all will be one day off. Not that it matters. it might to him though lol.

Anyhow we will only get one day of trial this week, tomorrow. Then the weekend and today and tomorrow I am off and I will see tomorrow night after the first full day how well it is covered and what Tom is actually using to cover. I haven't had time but also should check plans of MS and Aspen as to shows because I suspect their coverage will be better than news. Covering as much as possible rather than looking for that ONE bite of sensational first.
 
Yes i think the 100 miles was likely ambiguous and could be taken as daily or a one off but it actually was intended to mean a one off transportation to the Carroll County area for sequestration purposes.

This is why I prefer the J&C reporting as clearer, simpler and unambigous - see below.

"The panel will now head to Carroll County to sequester in a hotel through the end of the trial, which is slated to continue through Nov. 15. Opening statements start Friday, Oct. 18."
Exactly. I took it as a daily run of 100 miles. And I think one can see why. Even though I KNEW or thought I did they would be in Delphi. A quick read during a work week and it sounded to me as if they'd be transported back and forth daily.

Editors real lack these days with news. Doubting there even was an editor. They just type it off and get it up fast. Or they can't keep up with better alternative sources.

Yes, very unclear and not concise or read through at least once by someone to see how that could come across. But then there's the one that said the D filed the motion to exclude the sketches. Lord help us.
 
Yes I mentioned the possibility of Lafayette. As we know from RL, it is only about 20 minutes away right?
It may be picked up on at some point but I'm positive they are ensuring no one knows as much as they can where the jurors are being housed. I'd imagine they blocked off an entire floor of a hotel so the change of other guests picking up on it or encountering any of them or security, etc. is limited. I honestly don't think in this day and age you have many news media who really try to follow and do paparazzi kind of sh*t because it just isn't budgeted for any longer, maybe Daily Mail might, but most do little other than politics these days. Anyhow, extra safe I guess and I guess not a bad idea.

They still have to get them into the hotel and to the floor and some other guest may figure it out but even so, they'll have them cordoned off and blocked from any chance of running into someone in a bathroom or anywhere else, either at the courthouse or at the hotel. Clearly it will have gone to the extreme for this one, just as the lack of devices in the courtroom has.

I'd hope they'd maybe have some outings but honestly, the way this is all being handled, I think they may not even risk that. Judge has totally buttoned all down...

Hopefully they have a floor and some area on it for just sitting down with others to play cards or board games or some such. Most conference rooms are on floor one or event rooms but I woulnd't see them put on floor one because that's the floor all guests access... So who knows...

I could deal with it as I've said, quite easily, the sequestered hotel part, but when one adds in little time until back again for another day of very stressful testimony, etc. and no outlet, that's where I would fall down. Stick me in a hotel for a month and I can do JUST FINE even without devices. But to daily do a trial and come back with little time and no one to discuss it with, that's thek part that is going to take its toll. It's just like families who can't talk about the case for years, there is no outlet but at least they have each other to talk with... Jurors won't even have that...

So I won't say I could do it with that as part of it. And that's what this is.

But if someone wants to just test me and send me to a nice hotel for a month with no trial, take away my devices, give me all the magazines and enough to watch on TV, books, puzzles, room service and I'd eat it up. AND of course promise me you'll let me know if my family has a crisis, immediately, or the world is ending, and I'd take anyone up on it.

But again that's not what this is. This is going to take a real toll on them. But if they have somewhere they can convene and get to know each other without talking of trial, etc. some good friendships may result. And they have really covered a ton of things they can do either individually or together. The schedule won't leave much time for that unless days end short ever but they still will have full weekends. I'd also hope each has their own room. Because sharing one is something I would NOT want in such a situation.

I guess there is also the possibility they have taken over an entire small hotel. I don't think I know of that ever having been done but it would be the most secure...

I guess to give her this, don't like the lack of coverage, etc., but it seems Gull would ensure not a thing couild go wrong so much as she can... If one has staff taking the food and bringing it up where even no one working there or delivering can even have contact, such would be very secure. I think such would be extreme but it wouldn't surprise me.

Apparently it is my week end of just processing and just thoughts. Sorry if long but I think it is relevant. I think security is going to be high and I don't know that I see the need for the extremity of even the lack of voice recorders and some other things but she is taking no chances I'd say and so I think to go back to the point which I did stay on, about accommodations, I think they are probably as secure as can be done. Even if anyone figures out where, it is not going to allow contact, etc. or any chance of it would be my guess.

It may well be Lafayette.
 
And the gag order is meaningless if they can just come out with anything like this that they want too. In the UK they can only report on a daily basis once the trial starts. Not all this lawyer leaking stuff to the press whenever they like.
Yeah I don't know why this was allowed. The D has pulled this stuff constantly. Do goes on about publicity and fair jurors but then they do all they can to leak and influence and go against the gag order. These mini opening statements should have had some rules no?

Honestly, the jury is not chosen when this goes on, nor seated. Imo the judge should give a synopsis of the case and what happened. Period.

Here most of us responsible citizens have been called as prospective jurors. I've had it several times, even got into the box once. Actual jury seats where further questioning goes on, and out of the benches the public uses and where the bigger batches of jurors come in and sit unless and until your number is randomly called. Then you go up with others like 12 typically total, to be questioned further...

Now both the prosecution and defense can then ask certain things and maybe some of that that has been carved out ahead. Like if the case is known or alleged to be a drug charge or drugs were involved in something, you may be asked by one side or another, have you ever done drugs, have you ever had anyone close to your charged with drug charges... If a domestic, you might be asked have you ever had a relationship that broke up, did things go smoothly, did it get heated... Could you be fair in such a case... Has anyone in your family ever been convicted of this or that/ Etc. They can say some things about allegations in the case and ask you your thoughts on such and if anything in your life ever involved such things or with anyone you loved or know and so on and so on.

One time, I actually got pulled back into chambers with the judge and both attorneys, P and D.

It was ridiculous but it was a woman and man in a failed relationship and it isn't ridiculous as he and they pursued charges on her to no end and she went all the way to trial with it. Not a murder or anything like that. One thing we were told was alleged is she had thrown, or had he, all her sh*t or his sh*t out of the house into the yard... Etc. Etc. So questions tended to be whether if male you'd side with the male, if female with the female, if you'd ever been through a failed relationship and it got heated, etc., etc. Personal crap like family court and such are the worst and people get so emotional over it and die hard on it. But this wasn't family court, it was something like harassment or I don't recall... But it was ridiculous it was carried that far and she had to fight it and I'm sure she did as it was a vendetta by him...

Had I ever been through anything similar OR knew anyone that had? Well yeah... Not like that and not me but yeah...

In the end I didn't end up picked but did pay attention because by then I was really curious. She was in the courtroom, she was the one with charges she was fighting, some of her family members, he was, etc... So no internet days but she was found not guilty and from what I had seen and heard, that's the way it should have ended up. I did not have a bias but by the end and questions in chambers you could kind of sense where it was all at and that the facts maybe really were. I knew a person or two in the seats with me. I coudln't believe the sucking up to the judge, t yes, I know this cop (trying to be someone), my kid goes to his kid's school. LOL.

Typical judge questions in the beginning are would you take the word of an LE officer over an average witness just because they are LE... Do you know any LE personally, not just in the case, in life, etc. Would you be influenced because LE so their word must be golden. Paraphrasing.

Point is, the attorneys can ask questions that might say, it is being alleged my client had drugs in his posession, and then a bunch of questions to you about drugs, or being falsely accused, and have you ever had someone charged with such you care about and so on. So topics can be touched on I think is my long week tired point here in questioning by either side...

BUT what went on here with these mini opening statements and this hair thing is DIFFERENT. And I find it outrageous. And of course certain ones glommed onto it. The expected ones. Court TV. Grizzly. Lawyer Lee. And that is exactly what the D wanted wasn't it... The ones that try to act better, a few did too, meaning they act like they glommed onto it to say it is a nothing burger and could be transfer hair, etc. but still gets them views doesn't it... Mike from Profiling Evil for instance... They still put it in their "headline"..

I'm already sick of Court TV and Barbie...
 
I haven't seen anything about the juror questions. We know a psychic was barred from being a juror but thats about all we know.

Re cuffs, wasn't Lori in leg chains thru her trial?
I'm not sure about Lori off the top of my head, but Letecia Stauch was. I mean it can't always be covered and they can only do as best they can. In her case, she needed imo to be shackled. She had tried escape twice or tried it once and had it planned another time at minimum. Are you perhaps thinking of her because even though Lori's crimes were terrible and security should be high, I think she'd actually been a model prisoner (in her fakey way of helping others and leading them) and I don't recall thinking she was shackled to the floor. But Stauch was.

I'm guessing it is more ambiguous reporting and the reporters and people in the courtroom are seeing the cuffs but the jury is not by the time they are brought in. With RA. They bring all basically into the facility or up from the jail (if same place) in cuffs of course or in transport until in the courtroom. Once in the courtroom such is removed if not a high risk depending on those decisions and it is a more contained environment. So anyone in the benches already see all this but the jury isn't brought in until the judge is seated and anything that needs to be said outside of the presence of the jury is done, and then calls for the jury to be brought in.

Imo the jury or prospective ones were not seeing him in cuffs. Again it is poor ambiguous reporting.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
3,006
Messages
240,647
Members
966
Latest member
pizzalover
Back
Top Bottom