LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *GUILTY*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

1581272168478.png

Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


1581272119747.png


 
Last edited by a moderator:
BTW, Mr. Westerman apparently completed the terms of his pre trial agreement and charges are dismissed.
I am so glad that worked out for him so well despite his friend committing suicide and his wife divorcing him. I hope he is pleased with himself.
 
I am so glad that worked out for him so well despite his friend committing suicide and his wife divorcing him. I hope he is pleased with himself.
No sh*t right? Just skates through despite all of the damage. Listening to Tom, same part for about the third time lol. Shouldn't be up but napped in the chair for a bit. 2 a.m. here...
 
Why are the defense attorneys being allowed to testify because that's what they are doing, a common practice?

Not asking you. Talking to the post and info.

RA couldn' recall which way he took to the trails? Uh huh.

The key one if news has it right though is Allen was on the bridge at that time on his phone. WOW. So is there evidence he was? Because that is huge.
We have the witness who saw him on the bridge then she saw the girls when she turned and went back down the trail. I think he admitted he was on the bridge looking at fish and his stock ticker, then he went back and sat on a bench waiting for his prey to come past. Did he know they were going to be there? I wonder if Kline is testifying today?
 
Work product is exempt from testimony apparently. That's how they got the sketches tossed.
Work product is exempt from discovery too, meaning it does not have to be provided to the defense and vice versa applies, not that this D probably has much work product. Couldn't help saying that lol.

So I've heard the Kathy thing and how the tip was found and now listening to the end of the Dulin thing. Tom struggled a bit at times tonight with his notes but still got a full on question and answer and all of such on both people instead of just some recap of what news chooses to tell.

And while I did not need to, I am listening to it all for a third time. These two. I haven't went any further in his video yet, just these two. I want this part cemented in. And it's pretty cemented.

And I think is a win for the P and all makes perfect sense.

I don't like the lack of voice recorders in this area. Dulin didn't use one and Gull won't allow one in the courtroom LOL.

However, it all makes sense.

I'd like to know though who green lighted that tip... Meaning cleared it. And how it ended up in a box it seemed not to belong in.

Some think there's some great big conspiracy against RA, but I wonder more who tried to help RA perhaps...
 

I have bolded some of the testimony that is significant to me.
Witnesses are Shank, Dulin, Mullin, Liggett, Vido and Holeman in this link. See below.


By: WRTV Staff
Posted 7:04 PM, Oct 24, 2024

DELPHI — Six witnesses took the stand on Thursday in Day 6 of the Delphi Murders Trial. The focus of the testimony was on the early stages as investigators started to build a case against Richard Allen.

Allen is accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in February 2017.

Misfiled report brings Allen to forefront

The first witness was Kathy Shank, a retired CPS worker and volunteer clerk who organized and evaluated approximately 14,000 tips received by law enforcement regarding the murders in Delphi.


Shank testified she started helping with the case in March 2017. The tips received by police filled five filing cabinets. In September 2020, she was asked to digitize that paperwork into a database. The digitization took two years.

Shank said investigators were moving buildings in 2022 when she found a box in a desk drawer that contained a lead sheet from February 16, 2017. It was labeled "Richard Allen Whiteman.” The tip indicated Allen had been on the trail on February 13, 2017. Shank testified the file had the word "CLEARED" written on it and said, "I don't know how that tip ended up in that box."

Shank took the tip to Tony Liggett, the lead investigator on the case.

The name of the file was changed from Richard Allen Whiteman to Richard Allen on September 21, 2022. Whiteman is the name of the street where Allen lived.

The file revealed that Allen self-reported he was on the trail the last day family members saw the girls. Shank said that was the only tip provided.

During cross-examination defense attorney Andrew Baldwin asked Shank, "Did you ever see a tip ⁶about a guy walking down the road, bloody like he slaughtered a pig?" Shank answered, "Not that I know of."

On redirect prosecuting attorney Stacey Diener asked Shank, "Would a roadblock tip be given to you?" Shank answered, "Didn't believe so."

One jury member asked Shank how she determined the name on the original Allen file was incorrect. She responded that she put it together based on her knowledge of the town and by looking at the previous narrative.

DNR officer is first to interview Allen

The second witness to testify Thursday was Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officer Daniel Dulin. At the time of the murders, Dulin was a lieutenant with the Indiana State Police and was involved with the command center. He followed up on leads received by police.

He showed the court a lead sheet and explained to the jury what information goes onto the sheet.

"Name, contact, narrative, identifying number, who provided to, what officer should do," Dulin instructed.

He said he picked up a lead sheet on February 18, 2017, and then called Richard Allen.

He asked to meet at Allen's house but said Allen preferred to meet in a grocery store parking lot. At that time, Dulin believed Allen's full name was "Richard Allen Whiteman."

Dulin testified Allen told him he was at the Monon High Bridge Trail on February 13, 2017 from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. That was a change from the time he originally told police (1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.)

Allen told Dulin he parked in the Farm Bureau parking lot and that he saw three girls on the trails. He said he parked at the old DCS office and walked toward the Monon High Bridge.

Dulin described his encounter with Allen as "brief, about five to ten minutes."

He did not videotape or take an audio recording of the conversation. He did ask for Allen's cell phone information including the 14 digit MEID (Mobile Equipment Identifier) number for the phone.

During questioning, Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland asked Dulin, "When you spoke to Richard Allen, he told you he ran into three girls. Did he give you any information on what way the three girls were going?"

"Not that I know of," said Dulin.

Dulin did not follow up on the lead and returned it to the investigation center.

In September 2022, Dulin testified that he received a call from Former Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin asking if had ever talked with Richard Allen.

Dulin said the "name didn't sound familiar to me, but I went back to the computer and typed in Richard Allen, notes came up about an interview in Feb(ruary) of 2017."

Dulin began a search on Allen in the DNR Point of Sale System. That system keeps track of information gathered from hunting and fishing licenses issued by the state of Indiana.

It displayed Allen's phone number as well as fishing licenses for Allen and his wife. The licenses include the height, weight, date of birth, and any changes made to the license holder's profile.

Mullin learned a change had been made to Allen's height in April 2017. It had been 5'4", but was switched to to 5'6" on his fishing license. Allen's weight also dropped by 15 pounds.

"I just thought it was uncommon," said Dulin.

At that point, Dulin was asked to point to Allen in the courtroom.

During cross-examination, defense attorney Rozzi asked how Allen had contacted law enforcement.

Dulin said, "I don't know how he contacted law enforcement. I just know he contacted law enforcement."

Regarding the change in the fishing license information, the defense asked if Dulin knew who entered the new height and weight information into the system.

Dulin responded, "No."


Rozzi said someone had to verify Allen's credit card information, and claimed there were previous references to Allen's height as 5'6" on his license.

Back to the scene

Dulin told the court he canvassed the crime scene numerous times throughout the investigation, including during the first week of the investigation. He was there on February 17, 2017.

He testified he found sticks and branches that caught his attention. He said they had blood on them and were piled up in a 5-foot area.

That was after the crime scene near the Monon High Bridge Trail had been released by authorities.

Dulin testified to calling the investigation center and asking them to go back to the scene to collect the sticks.

Unspent bullet

The defense asked if Dulin immediately noticed deer stands in the woods.

He responded, "Yes."

The defense questioned how uncommon it would be to find shell casings — both spent and unspent — in the woods.

Dulin said, "It wouldn't be to find from a rifle, but not a handgun."

The defense attorney continued, "Is it unusual to see hunters and fishermen have handguns when they go out?"

Dulin said, "No sir."

"Have you ever heard of Smith & Wesson?" questioned the attorney.

Dulin replied, "Yes."

One juror asked if Dulin could remember what Allen's hair was like when he first interviewed Allen in 2017. He said he could not.

Former Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin too the stand to share more information from his October 2022 interview with Allen.

He stated Allen believed he was driving his Ford Focus when he went to the High Bridge Trail in 2017. Allen still owned the car in 2022. Allen told investigators he may have gone through the country to get to the trail that day, and if he went through the country that day, he would have passed a business called Hoosier Harvest. Hoosier Harvest has surveillance cameras at that location.

Allen stated he may have driven to the trail by traveling on route W 300 N.

Allen told police he was wearing blue jeans, a blue or black Carrhartt jacket, a skullcap, and military-style boots or tennis shoes.

When asked if he saw anyone on the trail, he said he saw three women — one older woman and two younger women. Investigators asked Allen if they could see his phone. He originally agreed, but changed his mind, got agitated, and then walked out of the interview.

Mullin said during the interview Allen was asked if the "Bridge Guy" was him, and Allen responded, "If the picture was the one that was taken on the girl's camera, there's no way it could be me."

Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began the cross-examination of Mullin.

He claimed nowhere in the transcript of Allen's interview did it say Allen may have driven west on 300 N. Baldwin asked Mullin to find that portion in the transcript.

The court sat quietly waiting for Mullin to answer. After seven minutes, Mullin said, "That was my interpretation."

Mullin told the jury he found it strange that Allen mentioned the picture on the girl's phone.

Jurors had three questions — including "Did you investigate how many black Ford Focuses in Carroll County?"

Mullin responded, "No."

Another juror asked, "Did you look to see if his (Allen's) other car (a 2006 Ford 500) was on (the surveillance) video (at the Hoosier Harvest location)?"

Mullin responded, "Yes, wasn't there."

State witness #25

State witness number 25 was Tony Liggett. He is the Carroll County Sheriff.

He was questioned by prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeland.

In September of 2022, he reviewed the tip found by Kathy Shank regarding Allen.

"It stuck out. I wasn't aware anyone had seen three girls on the trail that day. We believed it was 'Bridge Guy,'" said Liggett.

The jury was shown a video of "Bridge Guy" for a third time. This time the video that was shown had been enhanced to stabilize the man and to listen to what was being said. "Guys, down the hill."

Family members of the victims cried as the video was played.

Liggett learned Allen owned a 2016 Ford Focus and a 2006 Ford 500. He found that Allen worked at a CVS drugstore in Delphi. Liggett said he took pictures of Allen's car parked at that drugstore.

He found it interesting the vehicle backed into a parking spot at the CVS, observing the car backed into the DCS building lot as well.

Liggett shared Allen's timeline of events from February 13, 2017.

Allen told them he visited his mother that day, parked at the DCS lot, that he had been on the Monon High Bridge Trails from 12 p.m. until 1:30 p.m. that day. He said he passed three girls on the bridge, and said if he was going out of town he would normally drive his Ford Focus because it was more reliable than his other car.

Liggett believed Allen's comment about where he parked and his timeline was "wishy-washy."

Sheriff Liggett also testified to what was found in September 2022 when investigators executed a search warrant at Allen's house. Among the items found at the home were:

  • a .40 caliber handgun
  • some ammunition
  • a single .40 caliber bullet in a keep-safe box in the master bedroom of the home
  • a blue Carhartt jacket
  • a gun registered to Allen was found in the nightstand beside Allen's bed
During cross-examination, defense attorney Baldwin questioned Liggett if he was running for sheriff.
Liggett responded, "Yes."

He asked how much of a pay raise Liggett would receive if he won.

Liggett responded, "$50,000."

Baldwin followed by asking if an arrest would increase his chances of being elected.

Liggett responded, "This had nothing to do with me. It had to do with two little girls."

Sheriff Liggett said he knew at some point that information regarding the crime scene had been leaked.

The defense contends no one saw Allen on surveillance video walking where cars were parked.

Liggett said he believed Allen acted alone in this case.

The defense asked, "Out of the hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence, digital evidence, does any tie to Richard Allen?"

Liggett said, "No."

Two more witnesses were called on Thursday evening.

David Vido, an ISP detective, assisted in the search of Allen's home on October 13, 2022.

He took pictures of the home which also showed a Ford Focus outside.

Nearly 30 knives and at least four box cutters found inside the home were confiscated.

12 phones, including outdated phones, two pagers and two SD cards were also taken for evidence.

The defense asked Vido if it was uncommon for a hunter or fisherman to have knives.

Vido also said the jacket, car, and knives were all tested but nothing came back linking those items to the crime scene.

Underwear and socks missing from the scene were not found at Allen's house.

ISP Lt. Jerry Holeman testified regarding his supervision of the search. He sat in the car with Allen.

Holeman said when he asked if Allen wanted to fill out forms for any of the items found during the search, Allen said, "It doesn't matter. It's over."

Holeman said Allen said that twice, which he found interesting.


The defense also questioned how investigators handled the unspent bullet. They asked if photography could damage a bullet.

Holeman said, "Yes, depending on how it's handled.
 
Last edited:
Work product is exempt from discovery too, meaning it does not have to be provided to the defense and vice versa applies, not that this D probably has much work product. Couldn't help saying that lol.

So I've heard the Kathy thing and how the tip was found and now listening to the end of the Dulin thing. Tom struggled a bit at times tonight with his notes but still got a full on question and answer and all of such on both people instead of just some recap of what news chooses to tell.

And while I did not need to, I am listening to it all for a third time. These two. I haven't went any further in his video yet, just these two. I want this part cemented in. And it's pretty cemented.

And I think is a win for the P and all makes perfect sense.

I don't like the lack of voice recorders in this area. Dulin didn't use one and Gull won't allow one in the courtroom LOL.

However, it all makes sense.

I'd like to know though who green lighted that tip... Meaning cleared it. And how it ended up in a box it seemed not to belong in.

Some think there's some great big conspiracy against RA, but I wonder more who tried to help RA perhaps...
Yeah i would like to know who wrote "CLEARED" on that. The only adult male on the trail FFS. Did he have a friend in LE? Also, the fact that Shank actually found it is quite remarkable in itself.
 
Last edited:
This bit is interesting. So Dulin "picked up a lead" and called RA. We don't know where that original lead came from do we? So it wasn't RA calling Dulin.

"He showed the court a lead sheet and explained to the jury what information goes onto the sheet.

"Name, contact, narrative, identifying number, who provided to, what officer should do," Dulin instructed.

He said he picked up a lead sheet on February 18, 2017, and then called Richard Allen."


So somebody phoned in a lead on RA as early as 5 days after the murders. Then the Dulin interview just got cleared and filed away ?????? WTF !!!!!!

Later in his testimony -

Dulin said, "I don't know how he contacted law enforcement. I just know he contacted law enforcement."

So RA called in his own lead to LE, on the 16th, then Dulin went and interviewed him on the 18th at a parking lot, then it got "CLEARED" and misfiled. This sure is suspicious s*** to me. Then it got discovered 5 years later.

I'm not saying RA didn't do it but the fact he was the only guy on the trail somehow got buried when it should have been red flagged ????

Did he have someone in LE protecting him? Was it because of the KK investigation going on at the same time ?
 
Last edited:
Witnesses Shank, Dulin, Mullin, Liggett, Vido and Holeman in this link. See below.


By: WRTV Staff
Posted 7:04 PM, Oct 24, 2024

DELPHI — Six witnesses took the stand on Thursday in Day 6 of the Delphi Murders Trial. The focus of the testimony was on the early stages as investigators started to build a case against Richard Allen.

Allen is accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in February 2017.

Misfiled report brings Allen to forefront

The first witness was Kathy Shank, a retired CPS worker and volunteer clerk who organized and evaluated approximately 14,000 tips received by law enforcement regarding the murders in Delphi.


Shank testified she started helping with the case in March 2017. The tips received by police filled five filing cabinets. In September 2020, she was asked to digitize that paperwork into a database. The digitization took two years.

Shank said investigators were moving buildings in 2022 when she found a box in a desk drawer that contained a lead sheet from February 16, 2017. It was labeled "Richard Allen Whiteman.” The tip indicated Allen had been on the trail on February 13, 2017. Shank testified the file had the word "CLEARED" written on it and said, "I don't know how that tip ended up in that box."

Shank took the tip to Tony Liggett, the lead investigator on the case.

The name of the file was changed from Richard Allen Whiteman to Richard Allen on September 21, 2022. Whiteman is the name of the street where Allen lived.

The file revealed that Allen self-reported he was on the trail the last day family members saw the girls. Shank said that was the only tip provided.

During cross-examination defense attorney Andrew Baldwin asked Shank, "Did you ever see a tip about a guy walking down the road, bloody like he slaughtered a pig?" Shank answered, "Not that I know of."

On redirect prosecuting attorney Stacey Diener asked Shank, "Would a roadblock tip be given to you?" Shank answered, "Didn't believe so."

One jury member asked Shank how she determined the name on the original Allen file was incorrect. She responded that she put it together based on her knowledge of the town and by looking at the previous narrative.

DNR officer is first to interview Allen

The second witness to testify Thursday was Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officer Daniel Dulin. At the time of the murders, Dulin was a lieutenant with the Indiana State Police and was involved with the command center. He followed up on leads received by police.

He showed the court a lead sheet and explained to the jury what information goes onto the sheet.

"Name, contact, narrative, identifying number, who provided to, what officer should do," Dulin instructed.

He said he picked up a lead sheet on February 18, 2017, and then called Richard Allen.

He asked to meet at Allen's house but said Allen preferred to meet in a grocery store parking lot. At that time, Dulin believed Allen's full name was "Richard Allen Whiteman."

Dulin testified Allen told him he was at the Monon High Bridge Trail on February 13, 2017 from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. That was a change from the time he originally told police (1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.)

Allen told Dulin he parked in the Farm Bureau parking lot and that he saw three girls on the trails. He said he parked at the old DCS office and walked toward the Monon High Bridge.

Dulin described his encounter with Allen as "brief, about five to ten minutes."

He did not videotape or take an audio recording of the conversation. He did ask for Allen's cell phone information including the 14 digit MEID (Mobile Equipment Identifier) number for the phone.

During questioning, Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland asked Dulin, "When you spoke to Richard Allen, he told you he ran into three girls. Did he give you any information on what way the three girls were going?"

"Not that I know of," said Dulin.

Dulin did not follow up on the lead and returned it to the investigation center.

In September 2022, Dulin testified that he received a call from Former Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin asking if had ever talked with Richard Allen.

Dulin said the "name didn't sound familiar to me, but I went back to the computer and typed in Richard Allen, notes came up about an interview in Feb(ruary) of 2017."

Dulin began a search on Allen in the DNR Point of Sale System. That system keeps track of information gathered from hunting and fishing licenses issued by the state of Indiana.

It displayed Allen's phone number as well as fishing licenses for Allen and his wife. The licenses include the height, weight, date of birth, and any changes made to the license holder's profile.

Mullin learned a change had been made to Allen's height in April 2017. It had been 5'4", but was switched to to 5'6" on his fishing license. Allen's weight also dropped by 15 pounds.

"I just thought it was uncommon," said Dulin.

At that point, Dulin was asked to point to Allen in the courtroom.

During cross-examination, defense attorney Rozzi asked how Allen had contacted law enforcement.

Dulin said, "I don't know how he contacted law enforcement. I just know he contacted law enforcement."

Regarding the change in the fishing license information, the defense asked if Dulin knew who entered the new height and weight information into the system.

Dulin responded, "No."

Rozzi said someone had to verify Allen's credit card information, and claimed there were previous references to Allen's height as 5'6" on his license.

Back to the scene

Dulin told the court he canvassed the crime scene numerous times throughout the investigation, including during the first week of the investigation. He was there on February 17, 2017.

He testified he found sticks and branches that caught his attention. He said they had blood on them and were piled up in a 5-foot area.

That was after the crime scene near the Monon High Bridge Trail had been released by authorities.

Dulin testified to calling the investigation center and asking them to go back to the scene to collect the sticks.

Unspent bullet

The defense asked if Dulin immediately noticed deer stands in the woods.

He responded, "Yes."

The defense questioned how uncommon it would be to find shell casings — both spent and unspent — in the woods.

Dulin said, "It wouldn't be to find from a rifle, but not a handgun."

The defense attorney continued, "Is it unusual to see hunters and fishermen have handguns when they go out?"

Dulin said, "No sir."

"Have you ever heard of Smith & Wesson?" questioned the attorney.

Dulin replied, "Yes."

One juror asked if Dulin could remember what Allen's hair was like when he first interviewed Allen in 2017. He said he could not.

Former Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin too the stand to share more information from his October 2022 interview with Allen.

He stated Allen believed he was driving his Ford Focus when he went to the High Bridge Trail in 2017. Allen still owned the car in 2022. Allen told investigators he may have gone through the country to get to the trail that day, and if he went through the country that day, he would have passed a business called Hoosier Harvest. Hoosier Harvest has surveillance cameras at that location.

Allen stated he may have driven to the trail by traveling on route W 300 N.

Allen told police he was wearing blue jeans, a blue or black Carrhartt jacket, a skullcap, and military-style boots or tennis shoes.

When asked if he saw anyone on the trail, he said he saw three women — one older woman and two younger women. Investigators asked Allen if they could see his phone. He originally agreed, but changed his mind, got agitated, and then walked out of the interview.

Mullin said during the interview Allen was asked if the "Bridge Guy" was him, and Allen responded, "If the picture was the one that was taken on the girl's camera, there's no way it could be me."

Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began the cross-examination of Mullin.

He claimed nowhere in the transcript of Allen's interview did it say Allen may have driven west on 300 N. Baldwin asked Mullin to find that portion in the transcript.

The court sat quietly waiting for Mullin to answer. After seven minutes, Mullin said, "That was my interpretation."

Mullin told the jury he found it strange that Allen mentioned the picture on the girl's phone.

Jurors had three questions — including "Did you investigate how many black Ford Focuses in Carroll County?"

Mullin responded, "No."

Another juror asked, "Did you look to see if his (Allen's) other car (a 2006 Ford 500) was on (the surveillance) video (at the Hoosier Harvest location)?"

Mullin responded, "Yes, wasn't there."

State witness #25

State witness number 25 was Tony Liggett. He is the Carroll County Sheriff.

He was questioned by prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeland.

In September of 2022, he reviewed the tip found by Kathy Shank regarding Allen.

"It stuck out. I wasn't aware anyone had seen three girls on the trail that day. We believed it was 'Bridge Guy,'" said Liggett.

The jury was shown a video of "Bridge Guy" for a third time. This time the video that was shown had been enhanced to stabilize the man and to listen to what was being said. "Guys, down the hill."

Family members of the victims cried as the video was played.

Liggett learned Allen owned a 2016 Ford Focus and a 2006 Ford 500. He found that Allen worked at a CVS drugstore in Delphi. Liggett said he took pictures of Allen's car parked at that drugstore.

He found it interesting the vehicle backed into a parking spot at the CVS, observing the car backed into the DCS building lot as well.

Liggett shared Allen's timeline of events from February 13, 2017.

Allen told them he visited his mother that day, parked at the DCS lot, that he had been on the Monon High Bridge Trails from 12 p.m. until 1:30 p.m. that day. He said he passed three girls on the bridge, and said if he was going out of town he would normally drive his Ford Focus because it was more reliable than his other car.

Liggett believed Allen's comment about where he parked and his timeline was "wishy-washy."

Sheriff Liggett also testified to what was found in September 2022 when investigators executed a search warrant at Allen's house. Among the items found at the home were:

  • a .40 caliber handgun
  • some ammunition
  • a single .40 caliber bullet in a keep-safe box in the master bedroom of the home
  • a blue Carhartt jacket
  • a gun registered to Allen was found in the nightstand beside Allen's bed
During cross-examination, defense attorney Baldwin questioned Liggett if he was running for sheriff.
Liggett responded, "Yes."

He asked how much of a pay raise Liggett would receive if he won.

Liggett responded, "$50,000."

Baldwin followed by asking if an arrest would increase his chances of being elected.

Liggett responded, "This had nothing to do with me. It had to do with two little girls."

Sheriff Liggett said he knew at some point that information regarding the crime scene had been leaked.

The defense contends no one saw Allen on surveillance video walking where cars were parked.

Liggett said he believed Allen acted alone in this case.

The defense asked, "Out of the hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence, digital evidence, does any tie to Richard Allen?"

Liggett said, "No."

Two more witnesses were called on Thursday evening.

David Vido, an ISP detective, assisted in the search of Allen's home on October 13, 2022.

He took pictures of the home which also showed a Ford Focus outside.

Nearly 30 knives and at least four box cutters found inside the home were confiscated.

12 phones, including outdated phones, two pagers and two SD cards were also taken for evidence.

The defense asked Vido if it was uncommon for a hunter or fisherman to have knives.

Vido also said the jacket, car, and knives were all tested but nothing came back linking those items to the crime scene.

Underwear and socks missing from the scene were not found at Allen's house.

ISP Lt. Jerry Holeman testified regarding his supervision of the search. He sat in the car with Allen.

Holeman said when he asked if Allen wanted to fill out forms for any of the items found during the search, Allen said, "It doesn't matter. It's over."

Holeman said Allen said that twice, which he found interesting.


The defense also questioned how investigators handled the unspent bullet. They asked if photography could damage a bullet.

Holeman said, "Yes, depending on how it's handled.
Pretty good coverage here. Having listened to Tom through the first few witnesses of almost every question and answer pretty much I can say that. I didn't make it through all.

The prosecution needs to object and Gull sustain about the D continuing to "testify" and make statements in their "questions". It's not be to done, is wrong, and snouldn't be allowed.

Having bailed, no due to anyone here, but just because I about lost it over the poor coverage versus the factual coverage, I haven't read many pages here and not sure I will but not sure If I mentioned or talked of the cuts that were like "incisions". This was definitely premeditated, fantasized about and planned. Imo.

So Allen wouldn't give up his phone even in 2022 and walked out, even though it likely was not the same phone... What was on it he was worried about as far as his interests then...

The D made no inroads here imo. The fact he changed his height is very interesting and the question about who paid by credit card was stupid. Uh, where was that gong or supposed to go? So his wife did and she changed his height? Make that make sense to me what their point was there? It's as dumb as bug activity in Feburary after less than 24 hours.

The case is gel-ing imo. It isn't perfect but it is all coming together... And Dulin (which I always spelled Doolin and thought doo-fus) isn't nearly the dufus I figured he was...

And the only conspiracy I see is perhaps someone helped RA out... Meaning cleared a tip, got it into a wrong box, lost, etc. and I don't think it was Dulin who doesn't even know how the tip first came in or the self report..

Tom has a TON of what RA is doing or acting like during all of this testimony... And during certain parts of the testimony.

He hasn't said so but I have a feeling he is going to stick it out. I sure hope he does. He is wiped and one can tell. All covering it seem to be.

They have to be in another line after even a ten minute break and hope to get seat again. It's inhumane. Stay in your seat, never pee, wear a diaper or lose your seat.

I will never not diss this judge for the extreme and ridiculous rules here. Personally I think she loves putting media and SM like Tom viewers who actually attend through this. I don't think it's about hiding a thing, it's about doing such to them all.

Jmho. Sticking to Tom myself.
 
That's how I see it possibly, too. Rushed and had to go for some reason before finishing.

Also, a box cutter fits neatly and safely in a pocket. Most serrated bladed knives aren't as easily and safely pocketed away.
I don't think he was that rushed - SC recalls seeing him muddy and bloody around 4 pm doesn't she? That's nearly two hours after the SnapChat of Abby on the bridge.
 
Last edited:
Why on earth would the defense want to call the former DA? (rhetorical)

Anyway....

It blows my mind- and the former DA's, I'm sure- that had Allen's info been verified, his arrest would have certainly occurred relatively quickly after the crime and the DA may very well have stayed on to prosecute.
My question is why didn't Dulin- or anybody- then verify Allen's info?
Anyway...
I've been thinking alot about the girls and their horrific deaths and I've been very down about it and while I've kept up fairly well with the trial, I haven't felt like talking about the testimomies, especially since hearing from the pathologist.
Needless to say, it's just so awful beyond imagination.
 
I don't think he was that rushed - SC recalls seeing him muddy and bloody around 4 pm doesn't she? That's nearly two hours after the SnapChat of Abby on the bridge.
Many including the D try to say one person did not have enough time to do all this alone. I've never once bought into that and it's never once seemed like not enough time to me. Let's now add that he made precision type cuts, not panicked cuts by a man rushed.

I've never once understood nor bought the theory one person could not have done this in this amount of time. And personally I've always wondered why anyone would think that. You are out in the open, it isn't like LISK who took them home (and even he had a listen about what not to do the next time like alert neighbors, make sure less screaming or whatever, more asleep so he had more play time, etc.). No one killing out of doors near a public trail is going to figure on taking all day imo. I mean even if he knew nothing, these were 13 year olds who did not drive, did he really think they dind't have to be home or get picked up at some point? it just makes no sense at all to me that anyone would think he did not have enough time or thought he'd have hours upon end.

Any of us who live in areas where it gets dark at 4 or at most 5 in the winter (I think by February here one might have until 5:15 or a bit later until pitch dark, as I recall with my one job after December it would start gaining just a few seconds or minutes each day--becuse I hated driving he 1/2 hour plus commute home in the dark). In a couple of weeks we do daylight savings which I hate and it will be dark earlier. Right now in October, total dark is running about 6:30 or a bit later. So with the clock falling back it will be 5:30 or a bit earlier as every day we lose a bit until the "shortest" day of eh year in December and then it starts going he other way. I don't know if IN does DST but regardless, if this was a planned thing, he knew he didn't have a ton of daylight left for hours on end. And it seems very planned to me.

All they can do is guess at some things and I think they've said he was interruped. I'm not so sure of that. He may have heard Libby's dad yelling for them I guess... I think as likely is things did not go as most killers like this picture, perfectly as in their SICK DISGUSTING fantasy and he couldn't complete it. From the very start from the "top" of the hill, I think things went wrong. At least versus his fantasy and perfect picture of his sick fantasy.

We now know even Libby appears to have no defensivee wounds but that doesn't mean they didn't try to run, etc.

But even if Im wrong about all this I have never understood why people think someone couldn't do this in under and hour much less two. How long does anyone think murder outside takes or a murderer sticks around?

I mean, with dripping intended sarcasm, he probably had to get home for dinner.

He wasn't running down the road either, he was plodding along with his hands in his pockets. Doesn't mean of course he didn't rush from the scene.

This case is turning right now imo and turning in the right direction. The first how many days were about finding them and things and not about connecting RA and now we are getting to that.

Of course the defense will get their turn. I am eagerly awaiting news about his day and alibi. RA will not take the stand, I don't even WONDER about that.

You know Tom is so naive in a way to court proceedings and life. He says if he was innocent and accused he would NEVER EVER not take the stand in his own defense no MATTER what his attorneys advise. He says this over and over. He is unique in that he is not a "crime" person. But the point is I get his point with that. While I get lawyering up and certain people will say of course you should no matter what, I'd be the same way. If you didn't do anything then why would you and why wouldn't you take the stand..

I know the arguments that could come on that but then that just says something about our system doesn't it...

Back to the original point though, ANY murderer had plenty of time to do what was done here. And I have absolutely never understood anyone's thought that he did not.
 
Why on earth would the defense want to call the former DA? (rhetorical)

Anyway....

It blows my mind- and the former DA's, I'm sure- that had Allen's info been verified, his arrest would have certainly occurred relatively quickly after the crime and the DA may very well have stayed on to prosecute.
My question is why didn't Dulin- or anybody- then verify Allen's info?
Anyway...
I've been thinking alot about the girls and their horrific deaths and I've been very down about it and while I've kept up fairly well with the trial, I haven't felt like talking about the testimomies, especially since hearing from the pathologist.
Needless to say, it's just so awful beyond imagination.
Verify in what way?
 
I'm thinking today's testimony should be interesting. The timeline the prosecution is laying out has us right to the period of time leading directly to his arrest.
 
Why on earth would the defense want to call the former DA? (rhetorical)

Anyway....

It blows my mind- and the former DA's, I'm sure- that had Allen's info been verified, his arrest would have certainly occurred relatively quickly after the crime and the DA may very well have stayed on to prosecute.
My question is why didn't Dulin- or anybody- then verify Allen's info?
Anyway...
I've been thinking alot about the girls and their horrific deaths and I've been very down about it and while I've kept up fairly well with the trial, I haven't felt like talking about the testimomies, especially since hearing from the pathologist.
Needless to say, it's just so awful beyond imagination.
It is hitting home for me too, and I keep thinking about the families and I myself don't always do that as we all get about the case and the defendant which I hate but it just happens.

It is beyond horrendous what happened to these girls and the families get to hear it, on top of ALL they've already been through.

I actually bailed from it and right now have not read two days of posts here, not because of anyone here but because it hit me that the reporting is not anywhere close to full reporting. I knew it would not be but it just hit me and struck me hard. I had read all links here and what people were thinking from the links the day before but was watching full on coverage by someone who attended the next day and the differences were absolutely nuts. Like two different cases.

I don't know WHY someone at the trails, anyone's, would not have been verified and kept. I mean this was after they found their bodies. Not like they were just thinking they still might be just missing teenage girls.

I can get maybe a system didn't start fast enough but someone also GREEN LIGHTED or CLEARED this "tip" and him.

What are you thinking? Seriously asking.

I don't see a conspiracy with framing RA whatsoever but I do see someone might have tried to save him/clear him. The framing of him is as ridiculous as another case I won't mention that does not mean the person did not do it.

I hit my limit with it and I had no idea such was coming but what I was reading versus hearing was SO different and unexpected that it just blew me out of the water.

Back though to your point, what these girls went through is really hitting and it needs to break through at times for people instead of just being immune and talking the case, and I get that way too. I think we all do. But it's been coming in hard. And I am not the family and that just then makes me think how horrendous all these details are for them. And let's not forget the jurors who are seeing it all and sequestered on top of it for many weeks to come.

And good morning and hello by the way.
 
That doesn't mean he wasn't scared off at the two hour mark and possibly in the process of that then.
I didn't disagree that he could have been scared off but he plodded slowly by the family arriving to try and find the girls, according to the witness SC. I actually think the POS was already finished after nearly 2 hours with the victims.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
3,006
Messages
240,583
Members
965
Latest member
tanya
Back
Top Bottom