LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

She used the chair on you. Anyone who uses the chair on you can have it anytime they want it!

Oh really? Well if so, then I predict it won't be long they use it on YOU. I shall eagerly watch for and await that day.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Everything I've read says ejector marks are not junk science. I'm just voting on the identification is valid side.

Same here. Not a junk science. Listened to people actually trained in it and not just touting some rubbish they've heard from nonexperts who have never done such.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I've read the ejector marks tell you the weapon make/model etc, but as to the odds those marks can be definitively matched to one specific INDIVIDUAL weapon - leaves plenty of room for reasonable doubt. The problem (I've read) is that LE uses the same weapon make/model. So do plenty of other folks.

Critical: Can the rest of the investigation overcome with more corroborating evidence, that considered together w/ the bullet casing, eliminates reasonable doubt. But I know we all know that. stating the obvious ... means ... I need a nap.

Who and what are you reading?

Also there is corroboration not least of which he was THERE.

 

[Olenna]

Who and what are you reading?

Also there is corroboration not least of which he was THERE.

LE charging memo and 136 p franks memo challenging it.

There's corroboration that RA was where the casing and bodies were found?

No one's shared such corroboration ... yet.

 

[GrandmaBear]

LE charging memo and 136 p franks memo challenging it.

There's corroboration that RA was where the casing and bodies were found?

No one's shared such corroboration ... yet.

I would guess that really depends on what you believe of the witnesses who sighted "him" that day and whether you believe bridge guy is him.

Many do. And on the basis of that "case" yes he was there because he crossed the bridge towards the girls AND ordered them down the hill.

You can doubt all that and I can doubt all in the defense "memo". Sure the he77 ain't any short memo and not even sure I'd point out it is 136 pages and I can't even recall how many attachments etc. Gull recently said there were on it but like thousands of pages and photos etc. WHO does THAT? And if you saw my post from I can't recall, last night or early this morn, I this morn, WHO wrote this thing? Certainly was not written in a professional legal manner.

PLUS Allen confessed multiple times. I think that is one of the KEY reasons defense had to find and manufacture as much fake sn*w as they could and create a blizzard. Oh yah, there may be a thing here and there in the story they weave...

There is still a case here, that hasn't changed. And we still don't know what all they have, that has not changed.

I will say this, the judge who wanted off this case and took himself off is patting himself on the back and thanking his lucky stars.

Anyhow, nothing has made me waiver on Allen. If any Os were involved, he was with them.

And here is one thing NEITHER OF US NOR ANYONE know, what is his account for ALL OF THAT DAY and NIGHT, etc., etc. WHAT did his wife say happened that day and where was she wand when did he get home? DID HE WORK? Did he NOT WORK, was he SUPPOSED TO, etc., etc., etc. Even if you or anyone thinks there is no other BAM evidence, there is a LOT we don't know that they do know...

 

[Olenna]

I would guess that really depends on what you believe of the witnesses who sighted "him" that day and whether you believe bridge guy is him.

Many do. And on the basis of that "case" yes he was there because he crossed the bridge towards the girls AND ordered them down the hill.

You can doubt all that and I can doubt all in the defense "memo". Sure the he77 ain't any short memo and not even sure I'd point out it is 136 pages and I can't even recall how many attachments etc. Gull recently said there were on it but like thousands of pages and photos etc. WHO does THAT? And if you saw my post from I can't recall, last night or early this morn, I this morn, WHO wrote this thing? Certainly was not written in a professional legal manner.

PLUS Allen confessed multiple times. I think that is one of the KEY reasons defense had to find and manufacture as much fake sn*w as they could and create a blizzard. Oh yah, there may be a thing here and there in the story they weave...

There is still a case here, that hasn't changed. And we still don't know what all they have, that has not changed.

I will say this, the judge who wanted off this case and took himself off is patting himself on the back and thanking his lucky stars.

Anyhow, nothing has made me waiver on Allen. If any Os were involved, he was with them.

And here is one thing NEITHER OF US NOR ANYONE know, what is his account for ALL OF THAT DAY and NIGHT, etc., etc. WHAT did his wife say happened that day and where was she wand when did he get home? DID HE WORK? Did he NOT WORK, was he SUPPOSED TO, etc., etc., etc. Even if you or anyone thinks there is no other BAM evidence, there is a LOT we don't know that they do know...

That's cool. Without the info ... I can't take sides. Here's what I do know:
This is the most effed up LE investigation I've ever followed ... and that stinks of incompetence and even corruption. Pardon me franco.

I support Gull hiring new counsel she personally knows for RA. I think she thinks that something stinks in this case and she wants RA to have a fair trial -- not a fairy tale trial.

I really don't care about the writing quality of the franks memo. (I mean, I do care; I care a great deal about good writing .. but there are more important things in there to care about.) I care about the investigative facts and evidence described within ... that had not previously been released. I also care that 2 defense attnys w/ 50 years between them actually believe RA is innocent (as MS has described ... from speaking w/ the Leaker Westerman). You don't hear that passion from a double murder defense attorney team very often.

Your turn to frying pan me. Do your best.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Oh really? Well if so, then I predict it won't be long they use it on YOU. I shall eagerly watch for and await that day.

When I said she can use the chair on YOU, that doesn't mean me you nimrod.*

*I couldn't care less that Nimrod is a nice town in Oregon.

That's cool. Without the info ... I can't take sides. Here's what I do know:
This is the most effed up LE investigation I've ever followed ... and that stinks of incompetence and even corruption. Pardon me franco.

I support Gull hiring new counsel she personally knows for RA. I think she thinks that something stinks in this case and she wants RA to have a fair trial -- not a fairy tale trial.

I really don't care about the writing quality of the franks memo. (I mean, I do care; I care a great deal about good writing .. but there are more important things in there to care about.) I care about the investigative facts and evidence described within ... that had not previously been released. I also care that 2 defense attnys w/ 50 years between them actually believe RA is innocent (as MS has described ... from speaking w/ the Leaker Westerman). You don't hear that passion from a double murder defense attorney team very often.

Your turn to frying pan me. Do your best.

Pan is OK, the chair is only used against @GrandmaBear or by me on others.

 

[GrandmaBear]

That's cool. Without the info ... I can't take sides. Here's what I do know:
This is the most effed up LE investigation I've ever followed ... and that stinks of incompetence and even corruption. Pardon me franco.

I support Gull hiring new counsel she personally knows for RA. I think she thinks that something stinks in this case and she wants RA to have a fair trial -- not a fairy tale trial.

I really don't care about the writing quality of the franks memo. (I mean, I do care; I care a great deal about good writing .. but there are more important things in there to care about.) I care about the investigative facts and evidence described within ... that had not previously been released. I also care that 2 defense attnys w/ 50 years between them actually believe RA is innocent (as MS has described ... from speaking w/ the Leaker Westerman). You don't hear that passion from a double murder defense attorney team very often.

Your turn to frying pan me. Do your best.

I could no decide on the shock emoji or laughing one on your frying pan remark.... I will revisit that later, if I remember lol.

As you know I don't get a lot of time. I also try to stay up on a lot of cases but find it almost impossible lately. Or at least a few key cases. And am struggling to do that. You know more I will guarantee you but in what I have watched or followed here, I will agree there are issues with Gull BUT I have not reached any point where i think there aren't as big of issues or even bigger with the defense team. The one he had/has/has one and not the other or who knows as one withdrew, both did, yada yada yada whatever is right based on who one listens to or reads.

I have not YET formed a solid opinion on it because we never know all, nor do all the talking heads despite all of the leaks, etc., etc., etc. But where I am at is NEITHER the judge nor the defense attorneys look very good right now. There is this concept of lowering yourself to someone else's level... Food for thought. With the judge and defense and which came first the chicken or the egg...

Then aside from THAT, there is LE and the prosecution. Now many do and an argue LE did not do a stand up job from day one. But this is also Delphi, small town, etc. and the who would have thunk this would have been the outcome, a double murder, a bridge guy, etc., they probably just thought two teens went missing. BUT yes didn't seem to be great once they found the bodies either. So that's another side and thing.

But that is different too than the prosecution team. And than the State. Etc., etc., etc.

ASIDE from Gull who is NOT the prosecution, I haven't seen the prosecution screw up too much. They keep their mouths shut. They came back to the overblown crazy defense thing quite calmly without offering defense against their claims by giving the public info to dispute it, still keeping anything they have quiet. They seem to have done so from the start, the sh*t we have learned is from defense filings and pics we have seen then add the leak... To THIS day we know nothing of what the Kline thing was really about, we know nothing that came from the search of RA's home, etc., we know nothing of the rest of his day or claims or what his wife has said about that day etc. I'd call that pretty professional.

Sadly, I am not sure if that will matter since others have made a huge mess. And I"m not even saying the prosecution isn't corrupt or that the judge isn't with them, etc., etc., etc. but I am saying THEY have kept sh*t hushed.

I am NOT okay with the defense antics, the former defense, or one former, one current, both former, depending on all the b.s. going on. I am getting to where I can see (lack of time is one) where Gull is probably NOT okay either but I am not yet down on the prosecution nor convinced on Gull BUT getting there MAYBE with her I will see. I don't have time to search myself and look at all and where it stems from and I hate to jump when there is so much being blown each and every way by everyone and not look to source myself but that is something I just can't do these days.

What I do know or am pretty sure of is this is a mess and this is outright unacceptable and I have no faith in our system. Haven't had total in a long time but it only gets worse. I am also still a bit stuck on that all this "snow" came after Allen's confessions. And yah, now they have retroactively given a reason for those confessions.... Uh-huh. Where was this O stuff even with the guards at minimum BEFORE his confessions? They STINK to high heaven and so does Allen.

I'm not liking that the judge it seems isn't helping this, like I said, I haven't seen that I can think of with my overtired brain, the prosecution really do anything or give the reaction the defense probably HOPED for, you know egg someone, blast this crazy sh*t and hope something comes from it and they DID NOT GET such a reaction. They still have maintained...

I am tired and could probably explain better but I'm not even saying prosecution team is good nor not corrupt but I am saying they haven't give us a single detail to speak of or blasted back with hey his wife Kathy said well I did come home to him washing clothes that day and never had he before in our marriage...

I could go in a number of directions and would really like to explain more on a few and give reasons but can't right now. The ending i want to make is more important and that is that there are TWO dead girls here who as in so many cases, aren't front and center, the defendant is. And now the judge is. And justice for them is not front and center. Never is with the victims or their families. The defendant is. Always.

And out of all the sides I talked of in this case, the one I am convinced of is bad news is the defense. I don't CARE their reasons. I don't believe them and the timing of all is too too too you know... And it is all retroactive. AND if anything was seriously wrong for real they did not pursue the correct avenue that attorneys should know how to pursue. And they only hit with all of this when? But people are forgetting that and not seeing it because of the blizzard. I have NOT.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

The more I find out about this case the hinkier it gets to me. Something doesn't sit right.

 

[Olenna]

i

Just for the thread ...

The Indiana AG characterizes the RA / Delphi case as "circumstantial". And "a tough one".

(I know y'all value my opining more than the Indiana AG's ... but what the heck. Thought I'd share. LOLOL.)

 

[GrandmaBear]

When I said she can use the chair on YOU, that doesn't mean me you nimrod.*

*I couldn't care less that Nimrod is a nice town in Oregon.



Pan is OK, the chair is only used against @GrandmaBear or by me on others.

When I said she can use the chair on YOU, that doesn't mean me you nimrod.*

*I couldn't care less that Nimrod is a nice town in Oregon.



Pan is OK, the chair is only used against @GrandmaBear or by me on others.

Neither chair or pan is your property nor mine. And I have never whined repeatedly as you have to @SoSueMe and to @Kimster or you name it but I think it is essential that a ruling be issued that you do not own the chair nor the pan and cannot make such decisions on either! You act as though the chair is under your control to gift to those that want to use it on me or to lease it out, etc. Well then how come I can do this to you?

It ain't your exclusive chair dear DODO.

 

[Olenna]

I could no decide on the shock emoji or laughing one on your frying pan remark.... I will revisit that later, if I remember lol.

As you know I don't get a lot of time. I also try to stay up on a lot of cases but find it almost impossible lately. Or at least a few key cases. And am struggling to do that. You know more I will guarantee you but in what I have watched or followed here, I will agree there are issues with Gull BUT I have not reached any point where i think there aren't as big of issues or even bigger with the defense team. The one he had/has/has one and not the other or who knows as one withdrew, both did, yada yada yada whatever is right based on who one listens to or reads.

I have not YET formed a solid opinion on it because we never know all, nor do all the talking heads despite all of the leaks, etc., etc., etc. But where I am at is NEITHER the judge nor the defense attorneys look very good right now. There is this concept of lowering yourself to someone else's level... Food for thought. With the judge and defense and which came first the chicken or the egg...

Then aside from THAT, there is LE and the prosecution. Now many do and an argue LE did not do a stand up job from day one. But this is also Delphi, small town, etc. and the who would have thunk this would have been the outcome, a double murder, a bridge guy, etc., they probably just thought two teens went missing. BUT yes didn't seem to be great once they found the bodies either. So that's another side and thing.

But that is different too than the prosecution team. And than the State. Etc., etc., etc.

ASIDE from Gull who is NOT the prosecution, I haven't seen the prosecution screw up too much. They keep their mouths shut. They came back to the overblown crazy defense thing quite calmly without offering defense against their claims by giving the public info to dispute it, still keeping anything they have quiet. They seem to have done so from the start, the sh*t we have learned is from defense filings and pics we have seen then add the leak... To THIS day we know nothing of what the Kline thing was really about, we know nothing that came from the search of RA's home, etc., we know nothing of the rest of his day or claims or what his wife has said about that day etc. I'd call that pretty professional.

Sadly, I am not sure if that will matter since others have made a huge mess. And I"m not even saying the prosecution isn't corrupt or that the judge isn't with them, etc., etc., etc. but I am saying THEY have kept sh*t hushed.

I am NOT okay with the defense antics, the former defense, or one former, one current, both former, depending on all the b.s. going on. I am getting to where I can see (lack of time is one) where Gull is probably NOT okay either but I am not yet down on the prosecution nor convinced on Gull BUT getting there MAYBE with her I will see. I don't have time to search myself and look at all and where it stems from and I hate to jump when there is so much being blown each and every way by everyone and not look to source myself but that is something I just can't do these days.

What I do know or am pretty sure of is this is a mess and this is outright unacceptable and I have no faith in our system. Haven't had total in a long time but it only gets worse. I am also still a bit stuck on that all this "snow" came after Allen's confessions. And yah, now they have retroactively given a reason for those confessions.... Uh-huh. Where was this O stuff even with the guards at minimum BEFORE his confessions? They STINK to high heaven and so does Allen.

I'm not liking that the judge it seems isn't helping this, like I said, I haven't seen that I can think of with my overtired brain, the prosecution really do anything or give the reaction the defense probably HOPED for, you know egg someone, blast this crazy sh*t and hope something comes from it and they DID NOT GET such a reaction. They still have maintained...

I am tired and could probably explain better but I'm not even saying prosecution team is good nor not corrupt but I am saying they haven't give us a single detail to speak of or blasted back with hey his wife Kathy said well I did come home to him washing clothes that day and never had he before in our marriage...

I could go in a number of directions and would really like to explain more on a few and give reasons but can't right now. The ending i want to make is more important and that is that there are TWO dead girls here who as in so many cases, aren't front and center, the defendant is. And now the judge is. And justice for them is not front and center. Never is with the victims or their families. The defendant is. Always.

And out of all the sides I talked of in this case, the one I am convinced of is bad news is the defense. I don't CARE their reasons. I don't believe them and the timing of all is too too too you know... And it is all retroactive. AND if anything was seriously wrong for real they did not pursue the correct avenue that attorneys should know how to pursue. And they only hit with all of this when? But people are forgetting that and not seeing it because of the blizzard. I have NOT.

Remains to be seen if they've sent an interlocutory appeal up to the Appellate. But I believe the reason for end of week mad filings motioning Gull were about exhausting remedies w/ Gull's Court ... so they COULD go up to Appellate Court. They have what they need now. The didn't have it until Thursday when they forced it out of Gull via motion after motion after motion, which she opted to call "filed in error". This is too high profile a case for the Appellate not to look at this decision. Also, the new D's are her best friends and (while I'm cool with it), THAT's NOT GONNA HELP GULL - and will be one more argument why she should recuse herself.

 

[GrandmaBear]

i

Just for the thread ...

The Indiana AG characterizes the RA / Delphi case as "circumstantial". And "a tough one".

(I know y'all value my opining more than the Indiana AG's ... but what the heck. Thought I'd share. LOLOL.)

No time to watch but a comment or two. First of all politics which sadly are present in any big case now and we can't take in or believe it would ever be that way for any of them, especially state or local, where they wouldn't care more about justice or the victims, all of them, from any side, should care more about these girls. It ISN'T that way. I still live in half a bubble but many still live in their full bubble and can't imagine such.

Morphew and Delphi I think are two PRIME examples.

Second, he probably knows as much or little as one county office knowing what the one next door to them is doing who should normal people would think work together but I saw 30 to 40 years ago no it ain't that way and never has been and he is STATE. They don't even do it on local levels, NEVER have.

Boy could I give examples. Minor ones. Passport? Wedding license? Death certificate? Property records? Child support that in different ways involves CS agency, clerk, DA? And that is piddly stuff compared to this. NONE of them know sh*t about what the other is doing and they each have "their" job and description. They do NOT work together towards anything. Always been like that and that's local level, imagine national level.

Add in egos, competition, careers and a BIG case. Elections, opinions, etc.

And the fact that for the most part IDIOTS run our world and most of 'em have never lived in the "real" world of you and I.

I'd say to Abby and Libby that never ever should their lives have been taken at their age but even though it was not what should have happened, it is one messed up world and without a DOUBT they are in a better one watching this and saying at least we are here just as the judge that recused himself is saying!

Arggghh. Well "they" whoever all the "they" is yes have done it. Total pandemonium and circus. If I get a chance and remember I will watch your link. My reaction I will admit is without having watched it but I probably won't. Just another politician with a horse in it... And likely getting flack...

I am just tired... Long day. Hope it made sense and isn't too off topic. Lol.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Neither chair or pan is your property nor mine. And I have never whined repeatedly as you have to @SoSueMe and to @Kimster or you name it but I think it is essential that a ruling be issued that you do not own the chair nor the pan and cannot make such decisions on either! You act as though the chair is under your control to gift to those that want to use it on me or to lease it out, etc. Well then how come I can do this to you?

It ain't your exclusive chair dear DODO.

That chair has been MINE for 14 years!

 

[Olenna]

EVERYTHING's FIIIINE

i was certain that they knew each other, given their employment but it's not okay that they party together.

 

[buyerninety]

Does that mean they went to school together, or is it that their
kids go to same school?
--------
T'was said above; "Listened to people actually trained in it"
I saw a Fox news channel (probably one of the local Fox)
where they asked an expert abouut it - he rabbited on about
how it was all established science, gave certainty that marks
could be matched up to a specific gun...NO questions were
asked by the Fox drones as to WHAT specifically he was
refering to, and what he was refering to was;
1. Striation marks on a FIRED bullet that can be matched to
a specific gun,
2. Firing pin mark on the FIRED bullet casing primer which
can be matched to a specifc guns firing pin,
3. Ejector claw or ejector post impression on the FIRED bullet
casing, which can be matched to a specific gun to a high
probability (note if there is a fired casing, it will have these
last two items in conjuction)
4. not relevent here, but some gun chambers have unususal
fluting in the chamber/barrel mouth, which leaves an impression
on the FIRED bullet casing, (such impression can be an indicator
as to a specific type of gun)

NONE, NONE of these things are what the Delphi bullet has,
it's casing merely has some light impressions from an unfired
bullet - this is not comparable in any way to the impressions
left on a FIRED bullet, where the impressions are caused by
extreme pressures.

 

[Tresir]

They can tell the brand of bullet with just the jacket, better than they can with just a bullet. People usually buy the same brand of things and so it's not out of the question he'd have the same brand of bullets still.

Yes but the brand could be common and used by many so it is the racking marks on the bullet that are unique. If the bullet had come from, for instance, dropped by LE, RL or a hunter, there would not be those markings unique to RA's gun right?

 

[Tresir]

Well I'm not saying we don't but I'm not familiar with them and Heinz is a big brand so if they existed here I'd have seen them I'm sure. Our best known is Bush's Baked Beans and they are very good. We have Heiniz 57 Sauce of course, that's been know for decades on end and Heinz ketchup. Haven't had a chance to check website just got home. What's the "Royal Warrant"?

It means the Royal Family use it in their residences. Heinz 57 sauce is the same company. Their baked beans are in Heinz 57 tomato sauce.

 

[Tresir]

Does that mean they went to school together, or is it that their
kids go to same school?
--------
T'was said above; "Listened to people actually trained in it"
I saw a Fox news channel (probably one of the local Fox)
where they asked an expert abouut it - he rabbited on about
how it was all established science, gave certainty that marks
could be matched up to a specific gun...NO questions were
asked by the Fox drones as to WHAT specifically he was
refering to, and what he was refering to was;
1. Striation marks on a FIRED bullet that can be matched to
a specific gun,
2. Firing pin mark on the FIRED bullet casing primer which
can be matched to a specifc guns firing pin,
3. Ejector claw or ejector post impression on the FIRED bullet
casing, which can be matched to a specific gun to a high
probability (note if there is a fired casing, it will have these
last two items in conjuction)
4. not relevent here, but some gun chambers have unususal
fluting in the chamber/barrel mouth, which leaves an impression
on the FIRED bullet casing, (such impression can be an indicator
as to a specific type of gun)

NONE, NONE of these things are what the Delphi bullet has,
it's casing merely has some light impressions from an unfired
bullet - this is not comparable in any way to the impressions
left on a FIRED bullet, where the impressions are caused by
extreme pressures.

From a racked bullet as stated in my prior post. They racked a bullet through RAs gun (the Sig Sauer, an impression of which can be seen in BGs pocket and "gun" is heard on tape mentioned by one of the girls) and got the same marks. A jury will decide about that evidence/science.

They will not be comparing it to a fired bullet but to a racked bullet.

 

[Tresir]

LE charging memo and 136 p franks memo challenging it.

There's corroboration that RA was where the casing and bodies were found?

No one's shared such corroboration ... yet.

Yes. BG on the bridge with the Sig Sauer in his pocket plus the video/audio/verbal "gun' reference and the 43 seconds of him taking them down the hill. The phone recording and the racked (ejected) bullet both ending up at the actual crime scene. RA defence will not be able to explain that IMO.