JOSHUA "JJ" VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN, TAMMY DAYBELL, & CHARLES VALLOW: State of Idaho/Arizona vs. Lori & Chad Daybell GUILTY

GrandmaBear · Apr 26, 2023

Tresir said:
The Multiple Probation doctrine that Chad and Lori apparently followed - this book teaches about it. The book is written by Gregory Christiansen and Eric Smith and edited by Julie Rowe. Is Christiansen the guy you are on about?

Multiple Probations: A Lost Doctrine Remembered

With the exception of Christianity, the major religions of the world have a peculiar doctrine in common. Though it goes by many names, the belief in Multiple Mortal Probations is held by most of earth's inhabitants, so why isn't it taught among Christianity? Traces of the doctrine can be found...

m.alibris.com

Here's a 2019 link that describes Multiple Mortal Probation (AKA Reincarnation.)

I think that to understand the motives in this case, we have to understand Chad and Lori's beliefs. I think it is madness but they believed it and taught it.

Multiple Mortal Probations

www.johnpratt.com

And here's a link to "The Church of the Firstborn" by Julie Rowe, Smith and Christiansen again.

The Church of the Firstborn

Buy The Church of the Firstborn by Eric J Smith, Julie Rowe, Gregory P Christiansen, PaperBack format, from the Dymocks online bookstore.

www.dymocks.com.au

I'm not positive they believed any of their own garbage. These people all make money or try to off this stuff and for Chad and Lori, well money sure played into all of this.

I don't know if this was who they keep putting a blank up for and not naming. He named Julie Rowe and maybe him, I can't recall and haven't got back to it, my day kind of took a turn with plans going awry.

Cousin Dupree · Apr 26, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
Imo the prosecution is doing a great job and it just keeps piling and they are taking a very convoluted mess and making it possible to follow.

Lori AND Chad would do wise to take a deal for three life sentences each and $10 a month in canteen money. Offer them such. They are idiots if they don't take it.

!!$10!! You're a lot more generous than I am! :thud:

GrandmaBear · Apr 26, 2023

Cousin Dupree said:
!!$10!! You're a lot more generous than I am!

I know. A whole 33 cents or thereabouts a day. LOL. Lori would spend it all right away on food makeup (Jolly Ranchers or whatever) and lemon or whatever to bleach her hair. I wonder what Chad buys...

GrandmaBear · Apr 26, 2023

For those like me who don't have time to keep up, a short one from Nate.

GrandmaBear · Apr 26, 2023

This one actually is worth a watch and was after day complete. It does have some graphic details as to condition of the kids' bodies but no pictures or anything. It isn't too long. At the end she says she thinks it is nearing end and wrapping up, probably some DNA stuff to come but won't take long. And that it is said Mel P. "may" testify. Unclear if for prosecution or defense. Probably Monday. She expects closings or predicts them maybe even Monday but for sure next week.

Is defense putting up just one or almost no one in this case? What are they going to do then? Just argue that it wasn't proven?

Anyhow hearing details, some of which we have heard before but maybe not all of what they did to these kids all I can say again is evil but the word WICK-ED actually kept popping into my head as well.

It is unbelievable one would do this much less more than one.

GrandmaBear · Apr 26, 2023

THIS is worth watching and short.

First a sideways comment that Nate has been busy today and tonight with many "clips" although some of those clips are how many hours of this witness, then another with that witness which of course I don't have time to watch.

Now back to this one, it starts out a bit odd with this cousin who seems a bit excited then nervous but as it goes on she kind of gets more grounded.

Then dad comes in who I think IS the one who may be the father of the cousin who last night was on that I shared and he says how great it has been being there with his daughters or THREE of his daughters of four he corrects. Then he and so did his daughter prior say how great it is that now they can see and process and go back to the motel room, etc. and talk of it and what the other cousin said just last night (if that is the other daughter) is that no one can talk of anything, etc.

It is great if this has truly helped their family talk but it also feels like this is spin and in response to that without saying so. They are impressed by Nate and the world and etc., etc. But notably the timing of such...

WORTH a watch and I'm curious as to the take of everyone here on it...

Don't get me wrong, one can't help but like them but think about it all, and all we know.... Are they just doing this to avoid fall out and be on the right side of the fence and yeah, the public is involved and media, etc. Now it is safe to know what side and thing to say... As the other cousin said...

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

So dad is making it sound as if they talk and he is talking with is daughters when the 4th one said last night just the opposite so he is saying it changed them.... And they DO talk...? I think that's exactly what is going on, one versus the rest.

Now I want to actually side with that to a point. What we went through, a crime and stress, just like a natural death brings out a lot and people react differently. Our family all cared about the same thing and grieved and wanted the same outcome BUT had different opinions as these things happened or didn't happen and a process and thing most people, us included, had never gone through on what to do or how to react when LE is telling you one thing but the family is dealing with loss, etc.

This is a cover or spin on trying to show this part of the family is learning and showing solidarity in their own family against this awful thing in their extended family. Again understandable to a point but IS IT TRUE that they will heal and come together. The religion etc. added to this and how this family couldn't and didn't share anything real even with each other is added to what I have experienced. The other daughter and now I do think this is her father and sister I think are responding without saying so to what she said last night. She was very articulate and a very intelligent I felt and critical thinker and one who has learned despite how she was raised and what was instilled to know better and see more.

Are they saving face or are they sending a sign to that daughter and the world that they can heal.

Because I watched her and know what she said and what it must have took, I'm not so sure. The daughter in this one is nervous at first and isn't the uncle likeable? He sure is.............. Yet.......

On the surface oh could I fall for it all and pray this family heals... But it is kind of like the Mels and more, when it comes down to it then here they are and they weren't at trial the first days or even out there saying anything through the time since all happened...

Tresir · Apr 27, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
If you say so. Just like he could get her a mental eval? They likely looked at or would look at it as all marital and domestic. Sad but true.

I'm not trying to debate or argue, I'm just saying in a fantasy world. They don't even bother with such in this loaded down legal system any more than some LE bothers with looking for a kid they feel is likely a runaway.

Name me some cases where the parties are married or undergoing a divorce that such a thing isn't just a back and forth in a divorce case and charges were actually brought for a similar thing. Courts keep such in the family system.

The things my ex should be charged with believe me. THEFT. PERJURY. I could go on and on. Damage to property. Trespass. Only fell on deaf ears even with one's own counsel, don't bother...

He did get her a mental eval IiRC. Not sure we ever found out what was the result.

Tresir · Apr 27, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
I don't think we know enough to know, business, personal, mixed, etc. It was a claim by Charles is about all I think we know and far from any proof of it (not that I doubt she would do such a thing). I don't even remember what the point was. I've been gone somewhere and just came back and have had other things on my mind. Whatever the point was, she wasn't charged and it's the State that decides whether to charge and that's if he even reported it. I'm doubtful they would have charged her and look at how many bigger things she got away with with no charges for a long dam*ed time. I truly doubt they would have charged it and if anything they would maybe have told him to sue her civilly or address in in the divorce and any settlement.

What was the point, you can remind me if you like. Whatever it was, I don't think it really matters and he sure isn't going to get his money back now. And Charles couldn't get the police to help him with anything if you recall so I don't think they would have done a thing. If fact, maybe he did report it and they did advise him they couldn't do anything because he reported on her about all else.

It was definitely a business account she took it from because I remember he did not have the money to pay wages. I think it was about the time she just took off for two months.

Tresir · Apr 27, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
This one actually is worth a watch and was after day complete. It does have some graphic details as to condition of the kids' bodies but no pictures or anything. It isn't too long. At the end she says she thinks it is nearing end and wrapping up, probably some DNA stuff to come but won't take long. And that it is said Mel P. "may" testify. Unclear if for prosecution or defense. Probably Monday. She expects closings or predicts them maybe even Monday but for sure next week.

Is defense putting up just one or almost no one in this case? What are they going to do then? Just argue that it wasn't proven?

Anyhow hearing details, some of which we have heard before but maybe not all of what they did to these kids all I can say again is evil but the word WICK-ED actually kept popping into my head as well.

It is unbelievable one would do this much less more than one.

Who would they get as defence witnesses anyway when you think about it. Chad? Chad's kids?

Tresir · Apr 27, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
IF they could determine such after so long and after so much mutilation/desecration/abuse, etc. of their bodies.

One thing is for sure, no one thinks they died of natural causes, they were children.

I don't even buy that with Alex. Nor Tammy. And I debate on Joe.

No way with children even if cause can't be pinned down which I'm not sure it will be is there any explanation except murder or someone else did it is the route the defense would have to go regardless. I guess we shall find out.

Tresir · Apr 27, 2023

GrandmaBear said:
I'm not positive they believed any of their own garbage. These people all make money or try to off this stuff and for Chad and Lori, well money sure played into all of this.

I don't know if this was who they keep putting a blank up for and not naming. He named Julie Rowe and maybe him, I can't recall and haven't got back to it, my day kind of took a turn with plans going awry.

I wondered if Christiansen was the name they kept putting a blank for, that's why I posted the source books for all the reincarnation stuff and Church of the Firstborn etc . Or it could be Chad that is the name they are blanking.

BTW how come Chad's lawyer gets to cross examine witnesses? Will Lori's lawyer get the same privilege at Chad's trial?

I think she will be found guilty of conspiracy to murder but not of the actual murders.

If these books are the source of their beliefs for the murders, or the justification in their own warped minds, do you think the books should be banned?

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

Tresir said:
He did get her a mental eval IiRC. Not sure we ever found out what was the result.

She claimed to Mel G she took one is what I recall. I'm fuzzy on the details in this long drawn out heavy on details case (or cases). Seems to me Mel G was with her or waiting for her and seems to me for some reason it was at the PD. Or Mel picked her up. Something on that order. Who knows if it is true...

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

Tresir said:
It was definitely a business account she took it from because I remember he did not have the money to pay wages. I think it was about the time she just took off for two months.

yeah I remember the payroll remark too but always felt it didn't necessarily mean it was money in a business account but just money he claimed to need to pay wages. may have been in a business account and may not have been, who knows how they/he did things.

i also can't recall if it came from Charles or from Kay or was claimed in the divorce or to the cops... or did it come from Mel G?

whatever the case, nothing was done about it.

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

Tresir said:
Who would they get as defence witnesses anyway when you think about it. Chad? Chad's kids?

Well the rest of the 144 they are leading I guess... And maybe god (uncapitalized because it couldn't be the same god some of us others believe in) who deemed them special. Maybe Vanna White from Lori's Wheel of Fortune day... I don't know! Lol.

I think Nate Eaton remarked on how empty her side of the courtroom is when even Summer and family sat on the defense side and how juries notice such things. No ONE any longer wants to be associated with her or Chad in this crazy case. It was interesting to watch the first few minutes of an old one in that Eric guy thing the other day (I got bored a bit into it and didn't have time anyhow to finish it) because he and Julie Rowe were very much defending Chad (not sure about her). I wonder what they'd say now...

Some may feel these are beliefs but I feel like this bunch was actually maybe quite the industry... Sidetracking there though...

The only witness I could see for the defense IS Melanie P. She is the one who said she'd never turn on Chad and Lori or something to that effect. She also isn't in the courtroom from anything I've heard. I'd like to see the judge with her because she diverts, talks in circles and does a major word salad thing. I can just see it, repeatedly, just ANSWER the question you are asked. However, they'd probably just let her go on with no objection, who knows...

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

Tresir said:
I wondered if Christiansen was the name they kept putting a blank for, that's why I posted the source books for all the reincarnation stuff and Church of the Firstborn etc . Or it could be Chad that is the name they are blanking.

BTW how come Chad's lawyer gets to cross examine witnesses? Will Lori's lawyer get the same privilege at Chad's trial?

I think she will be found guilty of conspiracy to murder but not of the actual murders.

If these books are the source of their beliefs for the murders, or the justification in their own warped minds, do you think the books should be banned?

It isn't Chad because the "blank" person introduced Chad to these beliefs. I tried to go back to see if he mentioned Christiansen by name. I know he mentioned a book he and someone did with Julie Rowe, etc. I rewound it several times and never did pick it up to be sure. Just know there is a blank name who TOLD Chad these beliefs which according to Eric Chad didn't believe or pick up at first and then he DID.

What?? Are you saying Prior is cross examining witnesses?? I thought he was watching trial but he can't be part of it.

I think conspiracy is clear so I agree. As to the actual murders and being convicted I'm not clear on it all but usually if they are part of it, they didn't have to hold the "gun" per se or commit the act to still be found guilty of the murder...

Banning books or the old burning of books, etc. is so controversial and all goes to freedom of speech, rights, etc. That's another subject. Honestly I think porn should be banned and some other things and yes probably these books and such goes too far BUT I also know messing with such rights can go fast down the wrong road. On the other hand, those rights aren't upheld in many cases as we have to be so careful and PC when we talk now either orally or in print... That's another whole topic for sure.

I DO think this religion sets up for many of these things. A teenager saw something and there was a witness isn't that how it goes and because of that all these people have to do is claim the same, a vision, etc. and for some reason others in the religion believe it and buy it.

Nonbelievers in God and Christ or religion would say "we" buy just as crazy stuff but I disagree that it is comparable.

Again that's all a deep well/rabbit hole to go down right now...

RoundPeg · Apr 27, 2023

I'm not going to get into the whole narrative from Tylee's autopsy because it's the straw that broke the camel's back with me.

But knowing all the jurors have heard and seen in that courtroom just nauseates me.

The facts being presented compared to her reported demeanor is pretty compelling.

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

Boy Nate yesterday and last night has done what I have never seen him do which is put up several separate videos and clips and taken out some parts of testimony in some cases like here.

GrandmaBear · Apr 27, 2023

RoundPeg said:
I'm not going to get into the whole narrative from Tylee's autopsy because it's the straw that broke the camel's back with me.

But knowing all the jurors have heard and seen in that courtroom just nauseates me.

The facts being presented compared to her reported demeanor is pretty compelling.

Do you mean Lori's reported demeanor? Not clear on that part.

I gather yesterday was brutal for the jurors and I heard enough and watched enough to know why. I am feeling as if the words evil and wicked aren't even strong enough for the likes of Chad and Lori. POS isn't good enough either. There aren't words to describe these monsters imo. I heard enough about Tylee's body and what they tried to do that yes, doesn't need to be said here. Enough about each of them actually. And I'm sure I didn't hear it all.

I expect and hope I can trust that Lori will be a convicted felon in maybe less than a week, awaiting sentencing. (Unsure if ID sentences right away or that would be set for later). And Chad better start cowering as I believe he was hands on. I'm not as sure of that part with her but I definitely believed she knew all, likely drugged at least JJ and more and was DEFINITELY in on it all.

She sits there like some average woman trying to seem concerned and all nice and normal and tamp down her full of it behavior and she is nothing close to it.

Kimster · Apr 27, 2023

Guess Who said:
The difference is if if was a business account. They are not the same as a personal account. Marriage doesn't affect business accounts if the spouse is not a signer. If she was a signer, then she could write anything.

I’ve had this experience. I was not an owner of my exes business in any way, shape or form. But I was a signer on the checking account. He just had me removed as a signer when we got divorced and that was that.

JOSHUA "JJ" VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN, TAMMY DAYBELL, & CHARLES VALLOW: State of Idaho/Arizona vs. Lori & Chad Daybell *GUILTY*

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JOSHUA "JJ" VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN, TAMMY DAYBELL, & CHARLES VALLOW: State of Idaho/Arizona vs. Lori & Chad Daybell GUILTY