LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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As i mentioned above ... they're giving her the grace to do it herself. JMHO MOO and stuff.

Recusal is a Judge using best Judgement - it's a Judge thing and it's an admirable thing to do. It's a no-fault decision for her - may she take the grace and run.
So you believe it is cronyism and giving one of their own an unfair break?

They aren't ensuring it so what if she doesn't?

But ya know I think likewise the other way, I think they tried to give a bit too for the idiot D attorneys as part of the system too and let them save some face and get a bit of boost to their damaged reps. They could have very EASILY let Gull's authority and decision stand. No matter how you try to rosy it up or spin it, the D did not win here. I figured it would be remanded and said it beforehand. I even asked you if you thought so. I based that on the role of the higher court and where it really belonged and that's exactly what happened.

B & R did buy time with their filing to the wrong authority, I hope they used it to be ready and get this trial underway pronto.

Maybe Gull will remove herself or not, hard to say, I mean I couldn't blame he for not wanting to deal with these clowns/bozos. Who else deserves to have to or would want to though. First judge stepped down let's remember.

There is NOTHING that makes it so she has to though.

Like most on your side of the coin expected.

You say you don't take sides before all is known but you do Olenna. Maybe not with the defendant but with all else and we do not know all. We don't know everything about the leak investigation and more.

I'm comfortable though with you having a Gull hard on and my less than impressed opinion of two defense bozos who use an unlicensed bar failing buddy to do their dirty work.
 
As i mentioned above ... they're giving her the grace to do it herself. JMHO MOO and stuff.

Recusal is a Judge using best Judgement - it's a Judge thing and it's an admirable thing to do. It's a no-fault decision for her - may she take the grace and run.
Do you honestly think these appointments haven't been in the work for some time and that a judge who already held enough status to be appointed a special judge in this case not be a likely one in this area for such an appointment? My goodness, you can color anything to fit your belief, want, narrative. As always no offense.

The ISC did not one thing to ensure she removes herself and they did NOT remove her. You want her to take the grace and run but she does not have to but may choose to, who knows, with these bozos to deal with. The point IS she was NOT taken off and did nothing wrong. The highest court in IN addressed her staying NOT AT ALL.

I go between laughing out loud until I cry.

No matter what the decision might be or have ended up, you'd color it.

You really should run for political office.

To mention something else not so much on this topic, I don't think B & R are capable of a full on true hard defended case nor up on their laws, statutes or remedies (as happened here, it should have been dealt with at the lower court level and THAT is exactly what the higher court decided, quite simply, without coloring it, that is all this decision was). That is all, at it's core.

B & R can raise a hue and cry, file with higher courts, create blizzards with almost science fiction stories of Os being teleported by spacecraft from the Os home planet and so on but as to being real solid attorneys, I don't think they are. I don't think they know their sh*t but do know sh*t to create problems but OBVIOUSLY so.

This will surprise a few but I actually feel sorry for Allen a bit right now. And that bothers me to no end as when I think someone guilty of murdering two school children, I have NO sympathy.

There wasn't any win here Olenna, it was sent back to where it should have stood had the Old D not run out the door and commenced with the hearing that day.
 
I have that yummy eat-my-hat that I baked yesterday ... but I don't need to eat it.

Who wants it? ;)
I don't think anyone needs it. For all the hype, the decision was what it should be. Remanded to the lower court with the same players for how it should have went had B & R not been scared of what was to be shown and needed a back door and escape route.

But what's your hat made of? Pasta and cheese? I mean you might be able to get a bid for it if it is fresh...
 
It was their own decision to stand down that the SC reversed because they changed their mind. I guy killed himself because of what they did.

How do you know he killed himself because of this? His family said it had nothing to do with this. Since I know you're going to ask for proof, look for it yourself. I know what I've read, and don't want to go looking for it.
 
Well, maybe or maybe not. She has been shamed in front of the whole world, essentially. Put on notice "we're watching you". She may decide to stay, who knows. She's going to have to toe the line if she does.
Funny how all our opinions vary. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as B & R turned tail and ran and if anything the ISC gave some pity to the Old D and has them going back to face what they wouldn't.

Neither were shamed.

The questions however and the ones in the wrong position were far more put on the the defense's attorney.

Neither side was shamed in front of the world. B & R are given a chance and sent back to do it and not run as they did. Gull has to have them back and do it or deal as it is. B & R could have proceeded that day and she would have had to deal with it and in front of cameras and was ready to clearly so I don't see how some see otherwise.

There's no win here imo. The ISC put it back where it should be. B & R filing with the ISC was never the right route. They dismissed some earlier on and humored otherwise and did what a lot of county judges do, came down hard on neither side.

I actually think it is the right decision. B & R should have proceeded to the hearing and all should have been public and came out or what could at that point.

So what do you think of the new charges today and the Westerman thing?
 
IMO - Any defense atty worth their salt knew this new charge was coming - I'm surprised it wasn't corrected earlier.


Prediction: :unsure: Accelerated trial date TBD; it may need some allowance for a newly appt. Judge to catch up on the docket. That stuff is pretty administrative and defined by local protocols. :unsure:
Hey D was ready and they are back on and there is no new judge. So no need for time.

Charges can be changed or added right up to the day of trial. In my state anyhow. Our P did so in the last month I think it was. I inquired with many questions to understand it and it's far from unusual and can be done.

So wasn't it you that said you thought maybe the P's new help had something to do with that?

Seems to me if so another set of eyes and some help and new charges indicates a pretty strong case/s. And a lot more choices for jurors if all tried at the same time. Can find guilty on one or all or two or three, etc.
 
How do you know he killed himself because of this? His family said it had nothing to do with this. Since I know you're going to ask for proof, look for it yourself. I know what I've read, and don't want to go looking for it.
I posted a link a few posts back that says so. So you look for it yourself.

(As I'm feeling magnanimous, see my post #3885.

Which states -

"Westerman was an old friend and colleague of Baldwin’s and admitted to the crime when questioned by police.

Some of that evidence fell into the hands of YouTubers and podcasters. One man from Fishers received the leaked evidence and, in fear of being arrested, committed suicide in October of 2023.")
 
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It was their own decision to stand down that the SC reversed because they changed their mind. I guy killed himself because of what they did.

We're seeing the D reinstated b/c ... SC agrees w/ the concept that a guy killed themselves b/c of what the D did?

:nope: don't think so.
 
I think the death penalty in play also helps Gull gracefully recuse. She can say, and it would be true, that by the mere "appearance of bias" - by Gull not recusing that door is WIDE OPEN for APPEALS to reverse conviction. DEATH PENALTY!!!

Yeah, I understand but ... in the world of Judging ... if you - a judge - are spanked THIS HARD over your judgement over 2 critical officers of the court and over the Defendant in what is now a DEATH PENALTY case ... you have a very serious judicial obligation to recuse.

Gull has a state-paying desk admin leadership job for the next 2 years. She'll be fine. Literally no professional downside to recusal.

In fact, old D has a pending motion for Gull to recuse herself - on the docket - from 10/31.
A little gift waiting to be re-opened upon the old D's reinstatement, from the old D.

JMHO
Settle down. Lighten up. I mean come on with the bolding, the black crayon or Sharpie has to be broken by now. Hey, I mean you told me to relax, just saying, take your own advice as well.

What did this woman do to you and why is it the only case you follow?

I've not even gotten in here until later today as if I do so first when a lot of posts and no time, I can't stay even close to up on other cases and it isn't the only one I care about so I go to the others first, get little time and then get behind here.

Let's get something straight. The ISC did nothing to Gull. And they can't come in if she does not recuse on their own and cry "foul". She is under NO requirements at ALL by the ISC. Or conditions on what to do next, etc.

Where are you coming from with the DP? Huh? IN has it but it hasn't been brought in here has it? It should be as RA is a monster but it should wisely be done based on case facts.

RA now faces FOUR murder charges and two kidnapping charges I'd say go get HIM.

The ISC did not remove Gull AND did not order a trial in 70 days.

I honestly and in all seriousness cannot understand how you can twist this. Oh I can understand that you can or will but not that you buy it or expect anyone else to.

R & B saved some face for a moment and Gull lost none. She didn't get rid of the two, they elected the back door. She was ready to go. No? Their choice.

Despite all of this, the suicide guy crosses my mind and his family. Not that anyone gives a hoot.

Also, i am kind of interested to see this resume and players all in place. You seem to think Gull has been warned and is on notice which is b.s. but for me it is sent back to play out and I'm curious to see if B & R can behave, act like real lawyers who actually know the law, whether they will make Westerman an unlicensed silent partner to continue leaking at their bequest and writing things that sound like someone in jr. high on pot. No offense to any pot smokers. Seriously.

Anyhow, you are as much as saying a deal and under the table agreement was made with Gull by the ISC. Quit dancing around it and saying that is what you think if you do. There is NOTHING in PLACE that forces a recusal or repercussions nor was she sanctioned nor even commented on.

This is a return to the trial court to play out with all parties imo.

I watched every bit yesterday of this ISC hearing/arguments. And you didn't take it one bit as I did.

Old D needs to shape up and thank their lucky stars, get rid of leaking friends and plots with them, learn the law and do their job and quit whining to the ISC and handle it at the level it SHOULD have been to begin with. They sure love their press. WHEN it isn't making fools of them...

Clowns. Who know what they are doing though. On the dirty side of the coin at least.

Lol. Again no offense. Just very differing opinions.
 
Hey D was ready and they are back on and there is no new judge. So no need for time.

Charges can be changed or added right up to the day of trial. In my state anyhow. Our P did so in the last month I think it was. I inquired with many questions to understand it and it's far from unusual and can be done.

So wasn't it you that said you thought maybe the P's new help had something to do with that?

Seems to me if so another set of eyes and some help and new charges indicates a pretty strong case/s. And a lot more choices for jurors if all tried at the same time. Can find guilty on one or all or two or three, etc.

A lot of folks have been confused by the orig charging docs ... what appeared could have been charged based on the PCA vs what was charged ...

So ... yeah, again I'm just thinking how things for the P are going ... just practically speaking. How slow the process seems for the P (all P's really) - to get the funding/approvals needed for the help they need to bring on the case. We see the Franks Memo hit (making more work for the P) ... and some weeks later ... finally some experienced expert help is assigned to the case (the new asst P attorney - an experienced prosecutor).

So ... what does then new P partner do ... familiarize himself and ... fix the charging documents. I like McL but I think he's green - compared to the new asst P who has more experience.

I'm just wearing the P's hat ... take that all for what it's worth.
 
We're seeing the D reinstated b/c ... SC agrees w/ the concept that a guy killed themselves b/c of what the D did?

:nope: don't think so.
Well it must be just a coincidence that Lee kerr was in court the same day as ISC made a speedy decision.
 
Settle down. Lighten up. I mean come on with the bolding, the black crayon or Sharpie has to be broken by now. Hey, I mean you told me to relax, just saying, take your own advice as well.

What did this woman do to you and why is it the only case you follow?

I've not even gotten in here until later today as if I do so first when a lot of posts and no time, I can't stay even close to up on other cases and it isn't the only one I care about so I go to the others first, get little time and then get behind here.

Let's get something straight. The ISC did nothing to Gull. And they can't come in if she does not recuse on their own and cry "foul". She is under NO requirements at ALL by the ISC. Or conditions on what to do next, etc.

Where are you coming from with the DP? Huh? IN has it but it hasn't been brought in here has it? It should be as RA is a monster but it should wisely be done based on case facts.

RA now faces FOUR murder charges and two kidnapping charges I'd say go get HIM.

The ISC did not remove Gull AND did not order a trial in 70 days.

I honestly and in all seriousness cannot understand how you can twist this. Oh I can understand that you can or will but not that you buy it or expect anyone else to.

R & B saved some face for a moment and Gull lost none. She didn't get rid of the two, they elected the back door. She was ready to go. No? Their choice.

Despite all of this, the suicide guy crosses my mind and his family. Not that anyone gives a hoot.

Also, i am kind of interested to see this resume and players all in place. You seem to think Gull has been warned and is on notice which is b.s. but for me it is sent back to play out and I'm curious to see if B & R can behave, act like real lawyers who actually know the law, whether they will make Westerman an unlicensed silent partner to continue leaking at their bequest and writing things that sound like someone in jr. high on pot. No offense to any pot smokers. Seriously.

Anyhow, you are as much as saying a deal and under the table agreement was made with Gull by the ISC. Quit dancing around it and saying that is what you think if you do. There is NOTHING in PLACE that forces a recusal or repercussions nor was she sanctioned nor even commented on.

This is a return to the trial court to play out with all parties imo.

I watched every bit yesterday of this ISC hearing/arguments. And you didn't take it one bit as I did.

Old D needs to shape up and thank their lucky stars, get rid of leaking friends and plots with them, learn the law and do their job and quit whining to the ISC and handle it at the level it SHOULD have been to begin with. They sure love their press. WHEN it isn't making fools of them...

Clowns. Who know what they are doing though. On the dirty side of the coin at least.

Lol. Again no offense. Just very differing opinions.
THIS WOMAN VIOLATED A DEFENDANT'S SACRED CIVIL RIGHTS
Yeah, I won't rest 'til she's gone. From this particular case. She can do other stuff.

Let's get one thing straight: The ISC reversed Gull's decision to remove RA's counsel (a decision that is on the record).
Big deal? Only b/c of appearance of bias with Gull continuing.
Otherwise, higher courts overturn Judges decisions on the regular ...


My glasses are different than your glasses.
that's okay. yours are weird but they look so good on you.

Yup I'm on Recusal Watch.
You don't need to join me.

HOORAY! We agree that ISC told RA to have is preferred take the rest of his motions up using the lowers courts.

I'll let you know where we are with DP as soon as an expert makes up their mind.

As you know I'm no expert so ... If I'm thinking wrong can you ever forgive me?

Below is Olenna when y'all start up again with the "Westerman is a tool of the D" conspiracy theory:

1705712002017.png

I don't have time to follow this case are you crazy why should I follow another one I'd just be bothering a whole bunch more other people and how does that improve the planet or my mood?

These are questions of world importance, clearly.


sorry about the bold, it was supposed to get your attention, maybe not sorry:grouphug:
 
A lot of folks have been confused by the orig charging docs ... what appeared could have been charged based on the PCA vs what was charged ...

So ... yeah, again I'm just thinking how things for the P are going ... just practically speaking. How slow the process seems for the P (all P's really) - to get the funding/approvals needed for the help they need to bring on the case. We see the Franks Memo hit (making more work for the P) ... and some weeks later ... finally some experienced expert help is assigned to the case (the new asst P attorney - an experienced prosecutor).

So ... what does then new P partner do ... familiarize himself and ... fix the charging documents. I like McL but I think he's green - compared to the new asst P who has more experience.

I'm just wearing the P's hat ... take that all for what it's worth.
Who are the folks confused?
 
I posted a link a few posts back that says so. So you look for it yourself.

(As I'm feeling magnanimous, see my post #3885.

Which states -

"Westerman was an old friend and colleague of Baldwin’s and admitted to the crime when questioned by police.

Some of that evidence fell into the hands of YouTubers and podcasters. One man from Fishers received the leaked evidence and, in fear of being arrested, committed suicide in October of 2023.")
I'm gonna stand up for Tresir on this one. :thumb:

(But not the part where it goes conspiratorial and planned by the D.)

Threats from LE ... were the tip of the guy's suicidal iceberg.

don't worry Emu.

FWIW I heard a family quote that RF's (leaker) life was about so much more than redditing and scooping on the delphi channel and he'd been working hard on his personal stuff. That's from the MS shame shame, we're so special shame shame the rest of you episode.
 
Who are the folks confused?
the utube lawyers: on MS, on Prosecutors, on Defense Diaries ... have seen them all scratch their heads and wonder why charges were left out.
and here they are!
pls don't ask me for links. I've provided tons and I'll provide more when time allows..
 
Not me. I am amazed at the speed of the decision though, which seemed to take less time than it did for me to type out my choices LOL.

For RA, careful what you wish for as he is stuck with these guys now.
Oh yes lol. I've said it throughout be careful what you wish for, who your defense attorneys are and where you are housed and your complaints and dreams. I have said it before and you have too that I believe he is safer where he is housed.

And the wish for these attorneys? The justices did ask and touch on it or at least one did, perhaps more, I'd have to rewatch, RA ONLY has had contact with them at what point and WHEN they got in trouble every single thing RA was told and explained to him came from THEM. Does anyone really think they said boy we messed up and it isn't in in your best interest we be your attorneys and the judge hates us etc for no reason. Even if you want us your best interest is served without us. OF COURSE NOT. They NEEDED his endorsement as chosen attorneys for them to have a fight or LEG to stand on. Any conversation by the only ones who talked to him of it were them with their OWN interests front and center not his. best we be your attorneys even if you want us OR we know you don't want us but LISTEN to our truth of things? Gag. Does anyone at all here believe Allen was given an impartial accounting by Old D or they weren't all he had?

THE ISC did see that or pick up on it or at least one justice's questions or two did. I know the Gull attorney did. Man he was GOOD.

The speed once they finally after all this time got to this point did not surprise me. Good judges and people in the system and in the high court have done their homework imo on what was filed, what was in front of them, what the law or case law is and what key questions they would ask and already had a direction DEPENDING on answers and evidence.

I'm okay with this even though my secret (not so secret wish) fantasy would be for these defense clowns gone but it is what i kind of figured would result. This never belonged with the higher court filed by defense. They never pursued the appropriate trial court remedies. I find it not a surprise and figured it would be this or her (Gull's decision) left and her on and them off but more likely this. I'm not just saying that now. I've said it throughout and leading up to the ISC hearing.

This didn't belong and was not meant to be there until relief was exhausted on the lower level. Imo and as to how I understand it.

Imo B &R got their press with ALL things.

I never feel sorry for a perp I feel guilty but I ALMOST feel sorry for RA stuck with these two. As you say be careful what you wish for. I've said the same thing about him being moved to county. Know what you are asking and be careful what you wish for.

I have a theory about his confessions which I think is every logical based on what we know. I've touched on parts of those thoughts but not all.

I will say Gull is right on about him having attorneys who don't have his best interests front and center and she had to protect him from them.

If I had a different life I'd do a timeline showing it or the likelihood.

Those that think the prison or guards have done wrong need to open their eyes to is own legal team and the influence and coercement there. Who ELSE does he have input from?

Yep you've got em for the moment Rick, we will see how that goes going forward.
 

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