LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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Per eye-witness accounts, he'll need a bit of time to change outfits, including his hair, his beard, his age and his height.
(I'm just pointing out things P's evidence must explain. We've all made these points before, and I remain open and super interested in hearing our witnesses.)
His hair and beard can change as we have seen with the long beard sported in his arrest mugshot. The most important thing is the video by Libby which shows his clothes, height, gait and exact time he was there on the bridge. His vehicle on the Hoosier store video, shows when he arrived and left. ATM it all appears to fit.
 
One person couldn't have done everything that happened in the time frame it happened, IMO. So it's my belief that there was one, or more, waiting at the bottom of the hill.

I get your question.

In the context of the end of these beautiful girls lives at the bottom of the hill across the creek ... the taped "down the hill" suggests the speaker knows where they're taking these kidnapped children. The theory that there was at least one co-kidnapper involved has been put forth by LE for years.

Going with that theory of co-kidnapper ... where was that co-kidnapper (no witnesses?) at the moments of BG accosting the girls on the bridge?

Could they have been at the bottom of the hill?
 
His hair and beard can change as we have seen with the long beard sported in his arrest mugshot. The most important thing is the video by Libby which shows his clothes, height, gait and exact time he was there on the bridge. His vehicle on the Hoosier store video, shows when he arrived and left. ATM it all appears to fit.

I get LE's theory here. I've studied it. I've "walked" via the videos showing various terrains and locations and roads involved. I've seen amateur gis timelines on line.

It seems to me, the timeline is very tight and relies heavily upon eyewitnesses who will be on the stand 8 years post-incident. I'm concerned the theory/timeline is vulnerable in that one waffling witness takes it down. JMHO

Beyond timeline - FM depositions of LE suggests lots more challenges for the P re crime scene evaluation, including evidence preservation and chains of custody and lack of dna connections, and no relevant digital evidence on RA. JMHO

This presumption of innocence thing makes It more than okay to wait for trial and evidence to evaluate each key part of LE's theory ... which is what I intend to do.

I think everyone having a different level of comfort at this time is normal, acceptable, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts and theories and see no reason to reject anyone's thinking that's different than my own. In fact, the opportunity to check my thinking against others' thinking is the reason I post in this forum.

JMHO
 
Per eye-witness accounts, he'll need a bit of time to change outfits, including his hair, his beard, his age and his height.
(I'm just pointing out things P's evidence must explain. We've all made these points before, and I remain open and super interested in hearing our witnesses.)
I went back to the PCA. As of today, I don't see any huge issues with witnesses describing encounters that probably lasted seconds. Every one of them was consistent with the video and how Allen himself said he was dressed.
 

From the link-

Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McLeland, who filed the request on Thursday, said in his motion the amended charges “more accurately aligns the charging information with the cause’s discovery and probable cause affidavit.”
Also on Thursday, the Indiana Supreme Court issued an order reinstating Allen’s originally appointed public defenders, Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rozzi.
The justices heard oral arguments on a petition filed by Allen after Baldwin and Rozzi withdrew their representation last October in what Carroll Circuit Court Judge Frances C. Gull called at the time an “unexpected turn of events,” CNN previously reported.
Gull disqualified them after finding “gross negligence by said attorneys in their representation of the defendant” and replaced them with public defenders Robert Scremin and William Lebrato, according to the court docket.
Gull made the decision following an alleged leak of crime scene photos from Baldwin’s law office, which occurred without Baldwin’s and Rozzi’s knowledge, according to court documents obtained by WTHR.
Mitchell Thomas Westerman, a former colleague and friend of Baldwin’s, is the accused leaker, Westerman’s attorney, Michael Kyle, confirmed to CNN in a phone interview on Friday.
Westerman is accused of using his phone to take the crime scene photos, which were allegedly leaked and reportedly ended up in the hands of a YouTube content creator, Kyle told CNN.
Westerman was charged with conversion, which is a misdemeanor, last November and remains out on bond. Westerman worked for Baldwin approximately between 2013 and 2018, Kyle said.
The alleged leak possibly happened sometime in the late summer or early fall of last year and came to light in October, according to Westerman’s attorney.
Allen had also requested the trial happen within the next 70 days and remove Gull as judge, both of which the supreme court denied.
With Baldwin and Rozzi reinstated, it’s unclear if Allen’s trial will take place in October or be moved to an earlier date.

The lawyers on Vinnie Politan were saying that the judge didn't remove her, but it was obvious he was giving her an out so they wouldn't have to remove her. They expect she will remove herself.
 
I went back to the PCA. As of today, I don't see any huge issues with witnesses describing encounters that probably lasted seconds. Every one of them was consistent with the video and how Allen himself said he was dressed.

Possible PCA-related witness questions that I hope to see answered at trial - not challenging your reading of the PCA

Per witnesses - how tall is BG?
Per witness of bloody-muddy BG version - need clarification (b/c FM finds discrepency in PCA v witness statement).
 
I get LE's theory here. I've studied it. I've "walked" via the videos showing various terrains and locations and roads involved. I've seen amateur gis timelines on line.

It seems to me, the timeline is very tight and relies heavily upon eyewitnesses who will be on the stand 8 years post-incident. I'm concerned the theory/timeline is vulnerable in that one waffling witness takes it down. JMHO

Beyond timeline - FM depositions of LE suggests lots more challenges for the P re crime scene evaluation, including evidence preservation and chains of custody and lack of dna connections, and no relevant digital evidence on RA. JMHO

This presumption of innocence thing makes It more than okay to wait for trial and evidence to evaluate each key part of LE's theory ... which is what I intend to do.

I think everyone having a different level of comfort at this time is normal, acceptable, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts and theories and see no reason to reject anyone's thinking that's different than my own. In fact, the opportunity to check my thinking against others' thinking is the reason I post in this forum.

JMHO
I think the witness times fit in exactly right. RA himself says he was there 1.30 to 3.30 and that he saw the three girls at Freedom bridge. They said that is where they saw him too. The fact one of them said he was in black is cancelled out by this fact that he himself says he saw those girls. He did not claim to see anyone else. The other lady saw him on the first platform of the bridge. She then turned back and passed the girls who were on the way to the bridge. The next thing we have is Libby's pic of the empty bridge then the pic of Abby on the bridge which was posted to Snapchat. Then the 2.15 pic/video of BG/RA approaching them with the outline of a Sig Sauer clearly in his jacket pocket. The rest is apparently the kidnapping command "Guys, down the hill", plus some more audio. Then at the crime scene, the Sig Sauer bullet is found between the girls and Libby's phone is found beneath her body. The final witness, who said he looked like he had been in a fight, saw him on his way back to his vehicle.
It all fits.
 
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Wont load for me. Please could you copy pasta the relevant bit? TIA

There are some videos I didn't copy over here:


Court docs: Correctional officers overseeing Richard Allen deny practicing Odinism despite wearing religious patches on uniforms​


Tuesday's court documents are in reference to the defense's filing outlining why they believe Libby German and Abby Williams were "ritualistically sacrificed."

DELPHI, Ind. — New court documents were filed Tuesday, Oct. 10, 2023, by both the prosecutor and defense attorneys for Richard Allen, the suspect in the Delphi killings of Abby Williams and Libby German.

The court documents are in reference to the defense's filing outlining why they believe the girls were "ritualistically sacrificed."



In a September filing, defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi claim three members of law enforcement looked into a possible connection to Odinists, which they described as members of a pagan Norse religion which has been hijacked by white nationalists, as being involved in the murders.

Prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeland disputed those claims.

Correctional officers' claims​


According to the court documents filed Oct. 10, the prosecutor spoke with two correctional officers at the Westville Correctional Facility who the defense team claims have ties to Odinism.

(NOTE: The correctional officers and warden have not been arrested or charged in connection to the Delphi murders case, so 13News is not using their names.)

Court documents say both correctional officers denied practicing Odinism but admitted to wearing patches on their uniforms that can be — but they said are not — associated with Odinism. The correctional officers said they stopped wearing the patches on their uniforms in September 2023 when they were asked to remove them. The correctional officers also claimed they were not part of a cult or a radical hate group.

One of the correctional officers said Norse Paganism Heathenry is his practicing religion.

RELATED: Richard Allen's attorneys name Purdue professor and say police hid statement on Odinist connection to Delphi killings

In regard to their interactions with Allen, the correctional officers both said they've never threatened Allen and never had a one-on-one conversation with Allen about Odinism.

One of the correctional officers told prosecutors he went "above and beyond to not use any kind of force on (Allen), even though there have been times when use of force was justified by standard operating procedures." That correctional officer said Allen was tased twice between May 9 and May 25 because he did not comply with the officers' orders.

Warden's claims​


The prosecutor also spoke with the acting warden of the Westville Correctional Facility, who said correctional officers were allowed to wear any patches on their vests until the allegations made by the defense team.

The warden also said the facility offers religious services if there are at least five people who practice the religion in the complex — and the facility has never held services related to Odism. And of the "very few inmates" that practice Odinism, the warden said none of those inmates are housed with or next to Allen.

RELATED: Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

Prosecutor's response to defense's motion to transfer Allen​


The defense team previously filed an emergency motion to modify the safekeeping order on April 5, 2023, which was denied. Then, defense attorneys filed a motion to reconsider during a hearing on May 3, 2023, which the court denied again.

According to the prosecutor, Allen is being treated more favorably than other inmates housed at the Westville Correctional Facility, which is part of the Indiana Department of Correction.

The defense's latest motion accuses two correctional officers of "unjust and inhuman" treatment against Allen, which the prosecutor denies.

According to the prosecutor, Allen would be placed in the same kind of holding cell he is in now if he were to be moved to the Cass County Jail.

The prosecutor also claims the Indiana Department of Correction is more equipped to transport Allen back and forth to court dates in order to keep him safe and ensure he makes it to all future hearings.

Prosecutor's response to defense's motion for discovery deadline​


The state believes it has turned over everything in their possession and has no objection to a discovery deadline.

According to court documents, the state said the defense's theory that the state is intentionally withholding evidence because it is exculpatory is not true.



The prosecutor also claims the defense team hasn't turned over any pieces of evidence from their investigation.

According to the prosecutor, when the state filed charges against Allen, the discovery was not in a format that could easily be provided to the defense, which the prosecutor clarified as all the paper documents had to be copied and scanned, and all of the external hard drives and reports from law enforcement had to be collected.

The state is asking the court to require the defense team to turn over any evidence they get and not dump all of the evidence on the state on Nov. 1, 2023, at 11:59 p.m.

Defense asks judge to quash prosecutor's request for medical records​


Also Tuesday, Allen’s defense team submitted two motions asking the judge to deny the state’s request for the Department of Correction to turn over Allen’s medical and mental health records.

The defense argued those records contain private health information and have no impact on the question of Allen’s guilt or innocence related to the murders. The defense motion notes that it has not filed an insanity defense and that no one has requested a competency hearing, so, defense attorneys argue, Allen’s medical and mental health are not at issue.

The defense also says the DOC records are not “likely to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence,” so the prosecutor should not be allowed to have them.

On Sept. 25, the State asked DOC to turn over Allen’s medical records and exam results from the start of his stay at Westville Correctional Facility on Nov. 3, 2022. Prosecutors also asked for any “documents, recordings, notes videos and/or writings that the facility may have” related to Allen’s health.

The judge will decide whether to approve the defense’s motion to quash the subpoenas or to allow DOC to release that information.
 
The lawyers on Vinnie Politan were saying that the judge didn't remove her, but it was obvious he was giving her an out so they wouldn't have to remove her. They expect she will remove herself.
Its possible. Or she could give them the hearing on their gross misconduct too.

Thanks for posting the info in the previous post.
 
Its possible. Or she could give them the hearing on their gross misconduct too.

Thanks for posting the info in the previous post.

Here's my thinking on any Gull re-up of an RA notice of hearing to remove RA's counsel.

1) SCOIN prioritized it's concern for RA's speedy trial rights - stated SCOIN's ability to expedite for RA was the reason they agreed to hear the case.

2) SCOIN corrected Guttwein (Gull's lawyers) characterization of B & R as very competent, highly respected attorneys as "only incompetent in this case" - suggesting that's not an actual thing. And it would mess up everything if attorneys could be found "circumstantially" incompetent one day and competent the next.

3) Leaks/Westerman case going to trial. LE investigation concluded. No others involved. 250 pages of LE leak investigation, plus 6 video-taped interviews, plus Westerman's admission. Reasonable to conclude LE investigation found one sole leaker.

4) In the Westerman papers, Baldwin/Rossi are listed as victims/witnesses.

For these reasons, I don't think an effort to remove RA's counsel - via a proper due process and a hearing - makes sense. JMHO

Should Gull believe it's wise to revisit and get on the record her underlying concerns and also bring meaningful consequences, Gull has many other lawyer sanction options available to her that do not involve hearings and slowing down RA's due process. JMHO

One of the judges on the appellate characterized Gull's list of complaints against the D as not incompetence, maybe insubordination. Sanctions are the tools available for Judges to deal with what they perceive as lawyer insubordination. JMHO
 
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Thanks @Olenna.

While looking for an article that says that I happened across this gem: (I wonder whatever came from this investigation. Did they drop the investigation after he committed suicide?)


Man Who Killed Himself in Standoff Was Possible Suspect in Unsolved 2017 Slaying of 2 Ind. Girls​


"His name has come up through the process," Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said about the possible Delphi murders suspect

ByHarriet Sokmensuer
Published on July 22, 2019 12:55PM EDT

An Indiana man who killed himself after a five-hour standoff with police is being investigated as a possible suspect in the unsolved 2017 double slaying of two young girls.

On June 27, Paul Etter killed himself while surrounded by police during a standoff in Boone County, the Journal & Courier, WFLI and Indianapolis Star report. Etter was pulled over by a Lebanon police officer who noticed the truck he was driving had been reported stolen earlier that day.

Etter was a suspect in the abduction and sexual assault of a 26-year-old woman days earlier. Now, he is also under investigation for his possible connection to the 2017 deaths of best friends Liberty “Libby” German and Abigail “Abby” Williams, the Courier reports.

“His name has come up through the process,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said Friday when asked whether he could be the girls’ killer, according to the paper.

On Feb. 13, 2017, 14-year-old Libby and best friend Abby, 13, were dropped off by their family to go for a hike on a local trail. The friends were supposed to be picked up from the trails by family later that afternoon, but they never showed up to the pickup location.

Less than 24 hours later, authorities found the girls’ bodies on the side of a creek, a mile from the trail.

Days after Libby and Abi’s deaths, authorities released photos taken by Libby showing a man on the hiking trail as well as an audio clip and police sketch. The unidentified man was later named the main suspect in the girls’ death.

German and Williams are believed to have been approached by this suspect on the bridge. German was able to record surreptitious video evidence of the man on her cellphone before her death, capturing him saying the eerie words “Guys, down the hill.”

This April, officers released an updated — and notably different — sketch of the suspect, as well as a previously unheard snippet of audio recording from German’s phone. They also unveiled a new bit of video footage of the suspect walking along the Monon High Bridge.

According to the Courier, Etter was a suspect in the five-hour abduction of a woman in eastern Tippecanoe County on June 22. The woman told police she had pulled into Etter’s driveway at 4:30 a.m. after getting a flat tire. When Etter came out to ask if she needed help, she felt uncomfortable, declined his offer and continued to drive down the county road to a friend’s home.

Etter allegedly followed her and when she pulled into her friend’s driveway, he got out of his vehicle, handcuffed her and put her into his vehicle. She says he then drove her back to his family’s farm, where over the course of five hours he allegedly held her against her will and sexually assaulted her.

Afterwards, Etter allegedly dropped the woman back off at her car and evaded police until he was pulled over on June 27.

Tippecanoe County investigators told the Courier Etter’s information was shared with nearby Carroll County authorities as part of police routine.
I did not know about this. Interesting...
 
This is a discussion thread, you may or may not agree with what someone is saying and that's fine. Lets just argue about why we disagree and no more telling a poster their opinion is ridiculous or laughable etc. etc.

You can argue why you disagree but no more telling a fellow poster their theory or opinion is ridiculous or laughable.

Thank you!
Ima
 

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