LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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Thanks for this.

From the link -

DELPHI — Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen say they will call Judge Frances Gull as a defense witness in a future hearing.

RELATED | Reinstated Richard Allen attorneys request disqualification of special judge (wrtv.com)

In a Tuesday filing, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull will be asked to testify on the credibility of a Carroll County Sheriff's Office (CCSO) report.


According to the attorneys, in the June 2023 report, Judge Gull allegedly told a CCSO Deputy that they could ignore a
subpoena for Westville Correctional facility inmate Robert Baston, who was supposed to testify about Allen's abusive treatment in prison.

Gull's order "left Mr. Allen without crucial evidence for the hearing, thereby subverting justice for him," the defense said.

However, in a May 2023 order, Judge Gull denies telling the CCSO to ignore the subpeona.

In fact, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull stated that, “The decision by the Deputy to leave without the witness was his and was not directed by the Court.”

Now, the lawyers are asking Judge Gull to testify that the report, approved by Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby, was in fact false.

"Given that Judge Gull is the only individual who knows that she did not direct the CCSO office to ignore the subpoena and leave Mr. Baston at Westville (despite the contrary assertions in the CCSO report) she has become a witness to Tobe Leazenby’s truthfulness and to the fact that the information contained in CCSO’s report is false," the defense wrote.

The defense plans to call Judge Gull as a witness at a future hearing or trial.
Just bringing this forward as a reminder about the prisoner who refused to leave his cell.
 
It seems to me the said reason was because the D was griping about the conditions or how he was being treated per why the sheriff said he went or at least I THINK so but maybe that was speculation on our part or someone's, can't recall, but pretty sure he said so in a depo or something. Not going to swear to it though. I suppose it's possible he confessed to him then but I was thinking it's more an actual ISP Trooper/cop, not the local sheriff and so I'm thinking in that informal questioning when he and the wife went to get the car, perhaps he confessed....? And we know they want that entire one suppressed but are not worried about prior ones...

That's where MY mind goes anyhow...

And IF he confessed then, I wonder what he said... Of course IF he had, one would think they'd have arrested him on the spot, and actually they did, very shortly after...
I think the reason they arrested him when they did was because he told them he had never let anyone else use his weapon, so his bullet couldn't possibly be at the crime scene. However, that gave them what they needed to arrest him right there and then.
 
I think the reason they arrested him when they did was because he told them he had never let anyone else use his weapon, so his bullet couldn't possibly be at the crime scene. However, that gave them what they needed to arrest him right there and then.
yeah I know we think that, thought that, or someones out there think that, but this is getting a bit blurry in IS that speculation or do we KNOW that? I honestly can't keep up. Was it said by defense trying to suppress this talking by RA as to why or where does that come from? I cannot recall.

We don't know the content of ANY interview or talk do we?? Other than if defense put something in a filing intentionally or in a leak?

I do recall and it has become the thought that it was that he didn't lend his gun to anyone else but I CANNOT recall where that came from....

How do we know he didn't confess that day? Did they say it maybe in the arrest warrant that that was the reason, that he admitted no one else would have ever had his gun? He may have but where did that come from...? Probably in the early charging documents? Don't go look for it, I'm just saying this is all getting really hard to keep straight, just like Daybell became etc. and it is n't even nearly as convoluted.

I will say we know VERY LITTLE to be fact. If the P put that in a filing or charging document, then I trust it and I do think it may have been one of the key things they put in. SO that is where it likely comes from. Right? Darned if I can recall but a good guess.

My point though is they want this entire talk suppressed and who knows what was said in this one and he may have confessed there before ever being arrested? And just another confession earlier on...?

I think all we know or pretty much think we know is what defense claims.

But the bullet and gun may well be part of the charging documents and the fact he claimed he never lent it to anyone else.

Imo RA is as guilty as they come...
 
So we are getting to within two weeks or so of the hearings on motions.... Will it be last minute as usual by the defense or will they just wait it out and show up PREPARED for once to argue their own motions and those of the P and responses etc....

Educated guess is last minute they will realize it's a work day and vacation is over or at the hearings the kinks will be thrown... Or the unpreparedness will be seen...

Just going by past history....
 
At the same time are you talking?
I am not sure if it was the same occasion or the Sheriff visited twice maybe - eg once to check out conditions at the prison and once to bring the witness Bastion to give evidence, when he refused to leave his cell.
 
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yeah I know we think that, thought that, or someones out there think that, but this is getting a bit blurry in IS that speculation or do we KNOW that? I honestly can't keep up. Was it said by defense trying to suppress this talking by RA as to why or where does that come from? I cannot recall.

We don't know the content of ANY interview or talk do we?? Other than if defense put something in a filing intentionally or in a leak?

I do recall and it has become the thought that it was that he didn't lend his gun to anyone else but I CANNOT recall where that came from....

How do we know he didn't confess that day? Did they say it maybe in the arrest warrant that that was the reason, that he admitted no one else would have ever had his gun? He may have but where did that come from...? Probably in the early charging documents? Don't go look for it, I'm just saying this is all getting really hard to keep straight, just like Daybell became etc. and it is n't even nearly as convoluted.

I will say we know VERY LITTLE to be fact. If the P put that in a filing or charging document, then I trust it and I do think it may have been one of the key things they put in. SO that is where it likely comes from. Right? Darned if I can recall but a good guess.

My point though is they want this entire talk suppressed and who knows what was said in this one and he may have confessed there before ever being arrested? And just another confession earlier on...?

I think all we know or pretty much think we know is what defense claims.

But the bullet and gun may well be part of the charging documents and the fact he claimed he never lent it to anyone else.

Imo RA is as guilty as they come...
We saw a partial transcript of his interview by Holeman ( when he and Kathy went to collect the car ) which was in a defence filing that showed him admitting he had never lent his gun out. The document is upthread somewhere.

Defence want everything suppressed so that there is no evidence at all LOL.
 
Re: Tresir's request above, I'll respectfully respond (and provide links) for anyone on this thread interested in (and not allergic to ;)) referencing the dep excerpts foot-noted in the hefty Franks memo.

Links below:
  • The 132 page Franks Memorandum is on the docket and provides (foot-noted) LE deposition extracts.
  • Also on the docket, the 2 page FM-accompanying Exhibit and Deposition List (link below).

Note: The full exhibits (and depositions) are not on the docket available to the public. Just the list. (likely confidential). Thus, the only way to read excerpts from the deposition is by accessing the Franks Memo.

I'd recommend downloading both docs in searchable pdf format.
If you wish to quickly locate excerpts of depositions that are embedded in the the Franks memo text, I'd recommend:
a) download the FM pdf; search for the deposed's last name ... or ...
b) peruse the FM's footnotes only, page by page. for LE deposition excerpts.

For interest, I've cut/paste the list of Law Enforcement Depositions further below - a quick look at which LE members were deposed and referenced in the FM. Also I searched through the FM to pull a list of footnote references to Holeman, just to give you an idea of the degree of quoting.

The following docs are downloadable and searchable:

Franks Memorandum
Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

(open the Memo, read footnotes, read quotes that footnotes reference)

Exhibit List, Deposition List. 2 page list
List of Exhibits Included in Franks Hearing Memorandum.pdf


From the above - the LE Depositions that are quoted in the Franks' memo:


Below is a list of FM footnotes that give some idea of the # of references to the Holeman deposition. The page/line references refer to the Holeman deposition pages (a confidential doc). No link as I made this list quickly from the Frank's Memo as a courtesy. The reading ... is up the the reader.

Holeman deposition. p. 63, lines 7-20.
Holeman deposition. p. 64, lines 19-25.
Holeman deposition. p. 63, lines 7-10.
Holeman deposition. p. 63, lines 7-20.
Holeman deposition p. 64, lines 9-25.
Holeman deposition. p. 63 lines 7-20.
Holeman deposition. p. 64, lines 19-25.
Holeman deposition. p. 62, lines 7-20.
Holeman deposition. p. 62, lines 7-20.
Holeman deposition. p. 65, lines 6-8.
Holeman deposition. p. 65, lines 9-12.
Holeman deposition. p. 65, lines 1-3.
Holeman deposition. p. 63, lines 10-20.
Holeman deposition. P 123-130.
Holeman deposition. P 123-130.
Holeman deposition, p. 172, lines 4-5.
Holeman deposition, p. 172, lines 4-5.
Holeman deposition. p. 79, lines 6-7.

This is a list of various lines from a confidential Holeman deposition that was provided upthread. I haven't ever gone thru any of this, but bringing it forward in case we want to.
 
I am not sure if it was the same occasion or the Sheriff visited twice maybe - eg once to check out conditions at the prison and once to bring the witness Bastion to give evidence, when he refused to leave his cell.
Are we even sure the sheriff was there to transport Bastion or that a deputy let the sheriff know Bastion was refusing and then sheriff contacted the judge perhaps?

I know we know he was there about conditions I believe as that came up was it in his deposition?

It's getting hard to keep track of things due to the fact most WE HAVE not SEEN but defense has said a lot of things supposedly said and done and so on.

I wouldn't expect it to be the sheriff to be transporting a prisoner but then it is a small department and maybe wanted to ensure it was handled as it should be. Sheriff's are usually more administrative and their deputies handle such things. Not saying they couldn't fill in if short handed but it wouldn't be typical. However, this is high profile so who knows...

Now checking out claims and conditions, yes, that I can see.
 
We saw a partial transcript of his interview by Holeman ( when he and Kathy went to collect the car ) which was in a defence filing that showed him admitting he had never lent his gun out. The document is upthread somewhere.

Defence want everything suppressed so that there is no evidence at all LOL.
Thank you, yeah, that sounds right, I knew it had been said at some point in time in something that he certainly said no one else had ever used his gun, etc. I knew that to be fact but as to WHEN he said that the first time, I couldn't say.

Yes, lol they want ALL suppressed and they don't give reasons and back up for each thing they want suppressed. Like each separate confession, JUST as the P points out in their response. Man they are just lousy attorneys, I'm sorry to anyone who thinks otherwise. Just like Libby's phone, they want ALL on it suppressed, they uhm need to say why for each thing on it. Say she had some texts with her family, what REASON do they have to have that suppressed? What REASON for the BG video? What reason if it shows she played a game on it while Kelsey drove them to the trails?? DUH how DUMB are they?

It could be just delay tactics but they just never back up ANYTHING. They make motions to suppress all yes lol with no meat behind such and each thing. Just SUPPRESS IT ALL Judge Gull and if you DON'T, you are AGAINST US!! And then the whining about not being called the name NM was (I lack the word right now, can't recall but it meant dufus so to speak), they just are like children, not lawyers. Oh mom called him puddinghead but she never called me one (an insult even if affectionate) so that means my brother is her favorite. Arms crossed, sulking.

Years ago they would have been said to be turning a serious court into a circus or monkey court. Today, monkey court wouldn't be used probably for PC reasons but ithat isn't what it meant, t was meant to mean turning what should be serious into a joke and making the court deal with a joke, false claims, b.s., etc. Well I dare anyone to show me that isn't what this D is and is doing and how they seem professional at ALL.
 
This is a list of various lines from a confidential Holeman deposition that was provided upthread. I haven't ever gone thru any of this, but bringing it forward in case we want to.
Yeah they did attach a lot of sh*t apparently but made it all so hard to read and an overload I've never went through it. I think if I looked back I was the first to mention the O thing and the ridiculous filing and I had read like the 20 page or some such lead in and never got back to a bit of it. I have no desire to now or to read anything from the defense, however, if they attached TRUE and full copies of real depos, etc. and those were offered separately, I'd probably read those if I could find the time. I'm not going to go look for whatever attachment, read this page and that page and look for that page number, etc.

Plus I have listened to those that have done that.

If you or anyone gets a chance and wants to cite something specific, I'd of course be interested in just a post from someone who isn't picking and choosing to fit a belief or agenda.

I'll never get a chance to go look at it. It's what I use Tom for lol. I'm not interesting in their filing but IF they attached an entire deposition, I might be interested in the deposition transcript. Not out of context certain pages though.
 
Thank you, yeah, that sounds right, I knew it had been said at some point in time in something that he certainly said no one else had ever used his gun, etc. I knew that to be fact but as to WHEN he said that the first time, I couldn't say.

Yes, lol they want ALL suppressed and they don't give reasons and back up for each thing they want suppressed. Like each separate confession, JUST as the P points out in their response. Man they are just lousy attorneys, I'm sorry to anyone who thinks otherwise. Just like Libby's phone, they want ALL on it suppressed, they uhm need to say why for each thing on it. Say she had some texts with her family, what REASON do they have to have that suppressed? What REASON for the BG video? What reason if it shows she played a game on it while Kelsey drove them to the trails?? DUH how DUMB are they?

It could be just delay tactics but they just never back up ANYTHING. They make motions to suppress all yes lol with no meat behind such and each thing. Just SUPPRESS IT ALL Judge Gull and if you DON'T, you are AGAINST US!! And then the whining about not being called the name NM was (I lack the word right now, can't recall but it meant dufus so to speak), they just are like children, not lawyers. Oh mom called him puddinghead but she never called me one (an insult even if affectionate) so that means my brother is her favorite. Arms crossed, sulking.

Years ago they would have been said to be turning a serious court into a circus or monkey court. Today, monkey court wouldn't be used probably for PC reasons but ithat isn't what it meant, t was meant to mean turning what should be serious into a joke and making the court deal with a joke, false claims, b.s., etc. Well I dare anyone to show me that isn't what this D is and is doing and how they seem professional at ALL.
D for Ding Dong is a good way to remember it LOL.

Re the sheriff going to get Bastion, it was Tobe, I believe, who was Deputy Sheriff at the time.
 
Posting this article as it has details of Westerman's case. His jury trial was supposedly scheduled for June 25th. Did it even go off I wonder. There seems to be a news blackout as it is very difficult to find anything on it. Weird.




A Johnson County judge denied a request to dismiss a charge for the man accused of leaking evidence in Delphi murders case.
Mitch Thomas Westerman, 41, is charged with conversion, a Class A misdemeanor. A former employee of Andrew Baldwin, one of the attorneys representing Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen, Westerman is accused of taking photos of crime scene photos that were left inside a conference room at Baldwin’s office. These photos were sent to someone else, eventually being shared by a third person to YouTube creators and podcasts, according to court documents.
Michael J. Kyle, Westerman’s attorney, filed a motion to dismiss the charge on Feb. 25. Johnson Superior 3 Judge Douglas Cummins ruled against that motion during a pretrial hearing Thursday morning.
In the motion to dismiss and in court Thursday, Kyle argued that the probable cause affidavit filed to charge Westerman was “defective” because it allegedly failed to state facts that constituted a criminal offense and must be dismissed. During Thursday’s hearing, Kyle said they were asking the court to rule Westerman’s alleged acts were not a crime.
“This conduct isn’t criminal,” Kyle said.
Lindsey Holden-Kay, the special prosecutor assigned from Bartholomew County to prosecute the case, disagreed in her response filed April 4 and in court Thursday. Among the items Holden-Kay cited in her response was that there were time restraints on when to file the motion to dismiss, with that date being no later than Feb. 10. The motion was filed on Feb. 25, “well outside” the time frame, so she asked for it to be denied, according to court documents.
Additionally, Holden-Kay wrote the motion should be denied because it was reportedly an “improper request” of the court as it asked the judge to prematurely weigh the facts of the prosecutor’s case. The affidavit filed served only to justify pretrial detention of Westerman, and was not the means “by which the defendant is charged,” court documents show.
The affidavit filed follows the “exact language” of the law and complies with other affidavits filed in Superior 3 in November 2023 — when Westerman’s charges were filed — alleging charges of conversion, Holden-Kay wrote. She reiterated this in court, adding that she filed the affidavit in the same way she has done before in her career.
Holden-Kay told Judge Cummins the question before him was whether the affidavit cited an offense. The answer was yes, she said.
Judge Cummins told Holden-Kay and Kyle he had spent some time reading through their filings, also doing some research because of the unique circumstances of the case. If he were to rule in Westerman’s favor, it would’ve required him to consider evidence that is not part of the Westerman case, he said.
This is why Judge Cummins ultimately agreed with prosecutors to deny the motion to dismiss “at this time,” he said. The determination was “beyond the scope” of the information he has in front of him for Westerman’s case, he said.
A jury trial for Westerman is set for June 25, though this date could be subject to change.
 
Posting this article as it has details of Westerman's case. His jury trial was supposedly scheduled for June 25th. Did it even go off I wonder. There seems to be a news blackout as it is very difficult to find anything on it. Weird.




A Johnson County judge denied a request to dismiss a charge for the man accused of leaking evidence in Delphi murders case.
Mitch Thomas Westerman, 41, is charged with conversion, a Class A misdemeanor. A former employee of Andrew Baldwin, one of the attorneys representing Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen, Westerman is accused of taking photos of crime scene photos that were left inside a conference room at Baldwin’s office. These photos were sent to someone else, eventually being shared by a third person to YouTube creators and podcasts, according to court documents.
Michael J. Kyle, Westerman’s attorney, filed a motion to dismiss the charge on Feb. 25. Johnson Superior 3 Judge Douglas Cummins ruled against that motion during a pretrial hearing Thursday morning.
In the motion to dismiss and in court Thursday, Kyle argued that the probable cause affidavit filed to charge Westerman was “defective” because it allegedly failed to state facts that constituted a criminal offense and must be dismissed. During Thursday’s hearing, Kyle said they were asking the court to rule Westerman’s alleged acts were not a crime.
“This conduct isn’t criminal,” Kyle said.
Lindsey Holden-Kay, the special prosecutor assigned from Bartholomew County to prosecute the case, disagreed in her response filed April 4 and in court Thursday. Among the items Holden-Kay cited in her response was that there were time restraints on when to file the motion to dismiss, with that date being no later than Feb. 10. The motion was filed on Feb. 25, “well outside” the time frame, so she asked for it to be denied, according to court documents.
Additionally, Holden-Kay wrote the motion should be denied because it was reportedly an “improper request” of the court as it asked the judge to prematurely weigh the facts of the prosecutor’s case. The affidavit filed served only to justify pretrial detention of Westerman, and was not the means “by which the defendant is charged,” court documents show.
The affidavit filed follows the “exact language” of the law and complies with other affidavits filed in Superior 3 in November 2023 — when Westerman’s charges were filed — alleging charges of conversion, Holden-Kay wrote. She reiterated this in court, adding that she filed the affidavit in the same way she has done before in her career.
Holden-Kay told Judge Cummins the question before him was whether the affidavit cited an offense. The answer was yes, she said.
Judge Cummins told Holden-Kay and Kyle he had spent some time reading through their filings, also doing some research because of the unique circumstances of the case. If he were to rule in Westerman’s favor, it would’ve required him to consider evidence that is not part of the Westerman case, he said.
This is why Judge Cummins ultimately agreed with prosecutors to deny the motion to dismiss “at this time,” he said. The determination was “beyond the scope” of the information he has in front of him for Westerman’s case, he said.
A jury trial for Westerman is set for June 25, though this date could be subject to change.
I checked and his trial was rescheduled to Sept. 3, 2024.
 
D for Ding Dong is a good way to remember it LOL.

Re the sheriff going to get Bastion, it was Tobe, I believe, who was Deputy Sheriff at the time.
HOW could I forget that. I probably more than anyone went on about the Ding Dong thing. I could not for the life of me recall it and I was thinking also that it was one word and not two and just drawing a blank.

Okay. It's entirely possible Leazenby went to get him, I mean the claim is it was he who talked to the judge when Bastion refused to go but I was just questioning whether he could have simply been the one to contact her about the issue rather than actually being there. Of course that's all disputed one way or another as to what she said.

Imo they are Ding Dongs so I get in a way them being upset she didn't call them such.... Lol. It's like watching children play at being a lawyer when they grow up... Wearing dad's too big of a suit. Playing pretend I mean. Ha ha.

Yet they have someone's life in their hands. Smh.
 
I checked and his trial was rescheduled to Sept. 3, 2024.
Oh thanks for checking. So that should be the month before RA's trial. Did it say why it was postponed? I know he was down for a jury trial on June 25th but maybe he is now doing a deal. I mean who has a jury for a misdemeanor? He's full of his own importance and already admitted it in his depo anyway. Maybe he is still doing some work for the D(ongs) off the record. I would not be surprised at all.
 
Oh thanks for checking. So that should be the month before RA's trial. Did it say why it was postponed? I know he was down for a jury trial on June 25th but maybe he is now doing a deal. I mean who has a jury for a misdemeanor? He's full of his own importance and already admitted it in his depo anyway. Maybe he is still doing some work for the D(ongs) off the record. I would not be surprised at all.
Any charge even a small one can be ridiculously pushed to a jury trial. I'd say it's not that common but it happens, put the P and state through all the effort and cost for a jury trial. The rare time seen I think often is trying to show they are making a big deal about little (the State or P) in some yes full of themselves did nothing and we already know he DID.

Of course, he's still working for the D-Dongs imo. Lol.
 
Oh thanks for checking. So that should be the month before RA's trial. Did it say why it was postponed? I know he was down for a jury trial on June 25th but maybe he is now doing a deal. I mean who has a jury for a misdemeanor? He's full of his own importance and already admitted it in his depo anyway. Maybe he is still doing some work for the D(ongs) off the record. I would not be surprised at all.
I just looked for the trial date, not sure about anything else.
 
I'd like to know about why postponed myself. And why it seems to have not been "news". Don't know who is up if anyone but we are getting right before election time with both this one and the
new trial date.

Not that politics would ever play into a criminal case and justice for the average citizen...
 
I'd like to know about why postponed myself. And why it seems to have not been "news". Don't know who is up if anyone but we are getting right before election time with both this one and the
new trial date.

Not that politics would ever play into a criminal case and justice for the average citizen...
I think someone must know how to keep it out of the news.
 

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