Epstein, Maxwell et al: exposed in child sex trafficking

Do we have a Jefferey Epstein thread?

Jeffrey Epstein Confidante Ghislaine Maxwell Arrested on Sex Abuse Charges

Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite and heiress who became a confidante of disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein and was later implicated in his alleged sexual crimes, has been arrested by the FBI. She was arrested in Bradford, New Hampshire, around 8:30 a.m. Thursday on charges she conspired...

www.nbcnewyork.com

 

[GrandmaBear]

I believe the Government has proven the charges as outlined by Judge Nathan & expect that guilty will be checked next to each of the six counts. MOO

Only time will tell ...

I feel the same. I think she will be found guilty on most if not all of the charges. I am betting on all.

I didn't stay up with everything but tried to read most and even not catching everything, I feel like they gave plenty of corroboration and painted enough of a pretty complete picture putting the pieces together well. Jmo.

 

[GrandmaBear]

and telling

Yes, that's the better word for what I was getting at!! Telling.

 

[Tresir]

This is from a Sky article and lays out the charges and which victims they relate to. I have put the trial names against which victim number I think they are . It may be helpful.

Victim 1 "Jane"
Victim 2 Annie Farmer
Victim 3 "Kate"
Victim 4 Carolyn

1) Conspiracy to Entice Minors to Travel to Engage in Illegal Sex Acts - The first of the three conspiracy charges concerns all four alleged victims and focuses on the defendant allegedly encouraging them to travel so they could be abused. To prove 'conspiracy', prosecutors need to convince the jury that Maxwell and Epstein had an agreement to commit the crimes.

The government says Maxwell took part in group sex with Alleged Victim 1 and Epstein in New York and Florida, and encouraged her to travel between the two so she could be abused by Epstein.

They argue Maxwell gave Alleged Victim 2 an unsolicited massage, and encouraged Alleged Victim 3 to massage Epstein knowing she would be sexually abused.

Prosecutors argue Maxwell encouraged Alleged Victim 4 to travel outside of Florida with Epstein.

2) Enticement of a Minor to Travel to Engage in Illegal Sex Acts - Travel is again important here. The government says that Maxwell did "persuade, induce, entice, and coerce" Alleged Victim 1 to travel from Florida to New York so that the young woman could have sex with Epstein.

3) Conspiracy to Transport Minors with Intent to Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity- The second conspiracy charge also involves all four alleged victims, and touches on similar allegations to the first conspiracy charge.

Prosecutors claim Maxwell took part in group sex with Alleged Victim 1 and Epstein in New York and Florida on multiple occasions. They say that Maxwell "enticed" her to travel from Florida to New York so this abuse could take place.

Maxwell is also accused of giving Alleged Victim 2 an unsolicited massage in New Mexico when the young woman was topless.

Prosecutors say Maxwell encouraged Alleged Victim 3 to give Epstein massages knowing she would be abused.

They also claim the defendant encouraged Alleged Victim 4 to travel outside of Florida with Epstein.

4) Transportation of a Minor with Intent to Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity - This charge mainly focuses on Alleged Victim 1. Maxwell is accused of arranging for her to travel from Florida to New York multiple times so Epstein could sexually abuse her.

5) Sex Trafficking Conspiracy - This charge largely concerns Alleged Victim 4. Maxwell is accused of recruiting her, encouraging her to recruit others, enticing her to engage in sexual acts with Epstein, scheduling her massages, sending her gifts and paying her hundreds of dollars in cash.

6) Sex Trafficking of a Minor - Alleged Victim 4 is partly the focus here. Prosecutors say the defendant "recruited, enticed, harboured, transported, provided, and obtained individuals who were less than 18 years old" to have sex with Epstein.

Ghislaine Maxwell trial: Who are the alleged victims and what are the charges?

The charges Ghislaine Maxwell faces involves four alleged underage victims and multiple locations over a 10-year period between 1994 and 2004.

news.sky.com

Bringing this forward as a reminder for myself.
Victim 1 "Jane"
Victim 2 Annie Farmer
Victim 3 "Kate"
Victim 4 Carolyn

Counts/charged
1 victims 123&4
2 victim 1
3 victims 123&4
4 victim 1
5 victim 4
6 victim 4

If Kate is not a victim and Annie is also deemed not a victim then they will be removed from counts 1 and 3.
That leaves Jane and Carolyn only. Jane's testimony has holes regarding dates and several victims testified she looked 18. Her testimony does not agree with the FBI notes written on their 302's. That would cause reasonable doubt.
That leaves Carolyn who is a felon and was pimped and transported by her BF, who is a felon. VR was also involved in the pimping and received payment. The testimony of felons may be doubted enough to cause reasonable doubt. Carolyn did not travel due to her age (no ID) and she also lied about her age.

My opinion is that these points may be enough to cause reasonable doubt in all the charges.

Hopefully this should not go past a second day.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Victim or not does not dismiss their accounts or testimony/transcripts of interviews, etc. imo. It seems the jurors had a similar question and that was confirmed. If they are not a victim then they become more of a witness imo and their testimony is still relative as is that of any witness.

I also have to wonder, and perhaps I missed it, just because they are deemed not victims, which I fail to completely understand, does that mean the events relating to the charge did not happen or simply mean they were adults and cooperated in the event, at least relating to count 1? It is an odd premise but do you need a victim for a crime? Interstate commerce is interstate commerce.

 

[Tresir]

Victim or not does not dismiss their accounts or testimony/transcripts of interviews, etc. imo. It seems the jurors had a similar question and that was confirmed. If they are not a victim then they become more of a witness imo and their testimony is still relative as is that of any witness.

I also have to wonder, and perhaps I missed it, just because they are deemed not victims, which I fail to completely understand, does that mean the events relating to the charge did not happen or simply mean they were adults and cooperated in the event, at least relating to count 1? It is an odd premise but do you need a victim for a crime? Interstate commerce is interstate commerce.

Kate has been downgraded to a witness because she was over the age of consent in a foreign jurisdiction (UK). There is also doubt about her testimony anyway and the timeframe regarding when she visited the Belgravia house. Maxwell did not own the house till '97. Kate testified this was in '94 when she was 17. She is 44 now so 27 years ago. She kept in contact with Epstein and wrote to him in prison. Why would a victim still write to their abuser after 25 years?
NB age of consent in the UK was 16 and still is 16. Not sure about the British Virgin Islands (Little St J) but am guessing it is also age 16. Probably this is why he had homes in both NM and BVI.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Kate has been downgraded to a witness because she was over the age of consent in a foreign jurisdiction (UK). There is also doubt about her testimony anyway and the timeframe regarding when she visited the Belgravia house. Maxwell did not own the house till '97. Kate testified this was in '94 when she was 17. She is 44 now so 27 years ago. She kept in contact with Epstein and wrote to him in prison. Why would a victim still write to their abuser after 25 years?
NB age of consent in the UK was 16 and still is 16. Not sure about the British Virgin Islands (Little St J) but am guessing it is also age 16. Probably this is why he had homes in both NM and BVI.

Downgraded or not a witness at all? You mention more than Kate but regardless of their testimony, holes or otherwise, I am just saying that is up to the jury to decide if all is true, part of what they say or none of what they say. They can consider their testimony, I'm pretty sure, if they choose to. Not arguing, just wondering I guess if you are giving your opinion of how they will look at it or if you are saying they have to dismiss it and can't consider anything they said? I guess that's where I am unclear.

 

[kdg411]

Victim or not does not dismiss their accounts or testimony/transcripts of interviews, etc. imo. It seems the jurors had a similar question and that was confirmed. If they are not a victim then they become more of a witness imo and their testimony is still relative as is that of any witness.

I also have to wonder, and perhaps I missed it, just because they are deemed not victims, which I fail to completely understand, does that mean the events relating to the charge did not happen or simply mean they were adults and cooperated in the event, at least relating to count 1? It is an odd premise but do you need a victim for a crime? Interstate commerce is interstate commerce.

Count Two relates solely to Jane and the time period 1994 to 1997.
Count Four relates solely to Jane and the time period 1994 to 1997.
Count Six relates solely to Carolyn and the time period 2001 to 2004.

Jane & Carolyn are included in the jury instructions as victims. Kate & Annie testified to cooborate the testimony of the 2 that did testify & establishes 'multiple victims' in counts 1,3 & 5.

Did that help? If not let me know so I can explain it differently.

 

[Tresir]

Downgraded or not a witness at all? You mention more than Kate but regardless of their testimony, holes or otherwise, I am just saying that is up to the jury to decide if all is true, part of what they say or none of what they say. They can consider their testimony, I'm pretty sure, if they choose to. Not arguing, just wondering I guess if you are giving your opinion of how they will look at it or if you are saying they have to dismiss it and can't consider anything they said? I guess that's where I am unclear.

Kate has been downgraded from a victim to a witness only.

Tweet about Annie question -

Maxwell's lawyer: If someone asks, can I drive, you could answer, Yes but within the speed limit. Judge Nathan: I'm going to answer, Yes you may. Please been back at 4:55 so we can let the jurors go at 5 pm. Story coming on http://InnerCityPress.com

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1h
Update of 4:30 pm - Jury has another note / question: Can we consider Annie's testimony conspiracy to commit a crime in Counts 1 and 3?
AUSA: Say yes.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Count Two relates solely to Jane and the time period 1994 to 1997.
Count Four relates solely to Jane and the time period 1994 to 1997.
Count Six relates solely to Carolyn and the time period 2001 to 2004.

Jane & Carolyn are included in the jury instructions as victims. Kate & Annie testified to cooborate the testimony of the 2 that did testify & establishes 'multiple victims' in counts 1,3 & 5.

Did that help? If not let me know so I can explain it differently.

Yes, I don't have them all straight--I am simply saying what you say here--that victims or not, it does not discount their testimony nor does it mean their testimony can't or shouldn't be considered and their testimony is offered for a reason. Clearly the jury is not just going to ignore their testimony because they "aren't victims" and I fail to understand that thought I guess. That's the clearest way I can put it.

 

[Guess Who]

Yes, I don't have them all straight--I am simply saying what you say here--that victims or not, it does not discount their testimony nor does it mean their testimony can't or shouldn't be considered and their testimony is offered for a reason. Clearly the jury is not just going to ignore their testimony because they "aren't victims" and I fail to understand that thought I guess. That's the clearest way I can put it.

So many people that testify at any trial are not the actual victims of the crime, but simply to verify the story of the side they are testifying for, which is exactly what i see that happened here. Come to think of it, most people that testify aren't actually victims of what the trial is about. investigators, childhood acquaintances, data analysts, and on and on.

 

[GrandmaBear]

So many people that testify at any trial are not the actual victims of the crime, but simply to verify the story of the side they are testifying for, which is exactly what i see that happened here. Come to think of it, most people that testify aren't actually victims of what the trial is about. investigators, childhood acquaintances, data analysts, and on and on.

Yes and testimony is offered to be considered and one has to decide what and who to believe and how testimony, locations, logs, receipts and all sorts of things tie together or likewise, if they don't. Whether a victim/witness or just a witness.

I'm not explaining well, what I mean is ALL who testify are witnesses. That is why they go on a witness list. And they put them up there for their testimony to be considered. Not being a victim does not get their testimony thrown out and they are still there for a reason. That's the point I am trying to make.

 

[Tresir]

Daily mail report on first full day of deliberations.

Jury in Ghislaine Maxwell trial end second day of deliberation

The jury in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial deliberated for eight hours on Tuesday, bringing their total deliberation time to eight hours and 41 minutes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The jury of six men and six women deliberated for the whole day and sent four notes to the judge including one which related to Annie Farmer.


They wanted to know if they could use her testimony for two counts of conspiracy to entice and transport an underage girl to engage in sex acts.

Judge Alison Nathan said she would tell them that they could.

Earlier the jury asked to see notes of an FBI interview that Carolyn gave in 2007, the first time she spoke to law enforcement about being abused by Epstein.

Judge Nathan said that it had not been entered into evidence so they could not see it.

However the jury could refer to its mention in Carolyn’s cross examination by the defense.

The jury deliberated for eight hours on Tuesday, bringing their total deliberation time to eight hours and 41 minutes.

Judge Nathan told the jury that they could deliberate on Thursday if they have not reached a verdict by the end of Wednesday

+9
The jury deliberated for eight hours on Tuesday, bringing their total deliberation time to eight hours and 41 minutes

+9
Members of the prosecution team at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial walk out of the Thurgood Marshall United States Courthouse with boxes of papers as the jury deliberates
At 10.10am after just over an hour of deliberating on Tuesday the jury sent their first note.

Judge Alison Nathan said the jury were asking for the transcripts of testimony from Jane, Annie and Carolyn - but did not mention Kate.

Kate is the only accuser whose claims should not be considered crimes as charged in the indictment.

+9
The jury of six men and six women deliberated for the whole day and sent four notes to the judge including one which related to Annie Farmer (pictured in a school photo)
Prosecutor Maurene Comey said that both sides needed to agree to some redactions before giving the transcripts over.

Defense lawyer Bobbi Sternheim agreed.

The jury were not brought out and Judge Nathan said she would give them the transcripts in the deliberation room.

Maxwell walked into court wearing a black turtleneck sweat and black pants while holding a green folder.

She hugged her lawyers and waved at a young woman in the public gallery.

Maxwell's defense delivered closing arguments Monday afternoon, telling the jury that she is 'an innocent woman wrongfully accused of crimes she did not commit.'

In her closing remarks, Maxwell's lawyer Laura Menninger said: 'The government has failed to prove any charge beyond a reasonable doubt and the only correct verdict in this case is not guilty on each count.'


The defense again attempted to discredit the accounts of the four accusers, as Menninger stated, 'The evidence has established what we told you it would, that the stories relied on by the government are erroneous memories, manipulation and money. But in this case the order is reversed. The money brought the accusers to the FBI where their personal injury lawyers sat right there.'

As for how Maxwell was portrayed, Menninger said that she had been made to look like 'Cruella de Vil and the Devil Wears Prada all wrapped up into one'.

Such a portrait was 'as old as Hollywood', Menninger said.

Continued at link

 

[Tresir]

If Maxwell is found guilty, how could they possibly give her a longer sentence than the main perpetrator, who spent little time in jail at all under his plea bargain? In fact Maxwell has been in jail much longer than that already.

Do we know who the victims were in Epstein's Florida prosecution? Were they Carolyn and Jane?

I have found an article that is quite informative on the Florida prosecution deal.

The Palm Beach Post

eu.palmbeachpost.com

 

[kdg411]

If Maxwell is found guilty, how could they possibly give her a longer sentence than the main perpetrator, who spent little time in jail at all under his plea bargain? In fact Maxwell has been in jail much longer than that already.

Do we know who the victims were in Epstein's Florida prosecution? Were they Carolyn and Jane?

I have found an article that is quite informative on the Florida prosecution deal.

The Palm Beach Post

eu.palmbeachpost.com

Epstein agreed to a 'deal' in Florida to admit guilt of soliticing 1 minor to engage in prostitution. Ghislaine is being tried in Federal Court for her crimes unlike Jeffrey Epstein did in Florida. The charges against her could imprison her for the rest of her life.

As far as the victims in Florida, it's difficult to say with absolute certainty who each of the victims are/were so it would be speculative to assume their identity in this Federal case.

 

[kdg411]

 

[GrandmaBear]

If Maxwell is found guilty, how could they possibly give her a longer sentence than the main perpetrator, who spent little time in jail at all under his plea bargain? In fact Maxwell has been in jail much longer than that already.

Do we know who the victims were in Epstein's Florida prosecution? Were they Carolyn and Jane?

I have found an article that is quite informative on the Florida prosecution deal.

The Palm Beach Post

eu.palmbeachpost.com

It's a different jury, a different defendant, a different case, different charges, a different judge and a different court.

There isn't any saying he didn't get this, so she can't get that for a sentence. And had Epstein faced charges for the likely hundreds of minors, and was found guilty, he likely would have been sent away for a number of life sentences or at least a maximum amount of time. I recently was able to read that 39 page Exhibit C of "undisputed facts" although I had to skim it. What a sick monster with some very young children and, in fact, it left me with my opinion confirmed that there are many in power just as sick and that this is far bigger than just Maxwell and Epstein. I am sidetracking though.

I have seen one murderer get six years and someone in the same state with about identical evidence and circumstances get 25 years. Different county, different judge, same charge. It doesn't seem right but that's the way the cookie crumbles, the ball bounces, etc.

 

[Tresir]

It's a different jury, a different defendant, a different case, different charges, a different judge and a different court.

There isn't any saying he didn't get this, so she can't get that for a sentence. And had Epstein faced charges for the likely hundreds of minors, and was found guilty, he likely would have been sent away for a number of life sentences or at least a maximum amount of time. I recently was able to read that 39 page Exhibit C of "undisputed facts" although I had to skim it. What a sick monster with some very young children and, in fact, it left me with my opinion confirmed that there are many in power just as sick and that this is far bigger than just Maxwell and Epstein. I am sidetracking though.

I have seen one murderer get six years and someone in the same state with about identical evidence and circumstances get 25 years. Different county, different judge, same charge. It doesn't seem right but that's the way the cookie crumbles, the ball bounces, etc.

Maybe but they sound like different crimes. I am talking about the same alleged conspiracy. Takes two for a conspiracy charge.

 

[Tresir]

Epstein agreed to a 'deal' in Florida to admit guilt of soliticing 1 minor to engage in prostitution. Ghislaine is being tried in Federal Court for her crimes unlike Jeffrey Epstein did in Florida. The charges against her could imprison her for the rest of her life.

As far as the victims in Florida, it's difficult to say with absolute certainty who each of the victims are/were so it would be speculative to assume their identity in this Federal case.

Well then she should receive a similar deal if found guilty of the conspiracy charges. As I just replied, this is the conspiracy with Epstein. Makes no sense to me for the major perpetrator to get a minimal sentence with anyone else getting longer.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Maybe but they sound like different crimes. I am talking about the same alleged conspiracy. Takes two for a conspiracy charge.

It takes two to have a conspiracy but they do not have to be tried together so you have lost me. Epstein is dead, she can thank him for that but honestly, she is probably in better shape than if he were alive as I have little doubt a jury would have found her co-conspirator guilty. She is facing five years on any conspiracy count not some life sentence.

Epstein's deal was in Florida and was not a federal charge nor was it for conspiracy. Or do I have that wrong? One can't compare them as it isn't the same thing at all or even close to the same thing. In my opinion.

 

[kdg411]

Well then she should receive a similar deal if found guilty of the conspiracy charges. As I just replied, this is the conspiracy with Epstein. Makes no sense to me for the major perpetrator to get a minimal sentence with anyone else getting longer.

The case in Florida did not include Ghislaine Maxwell nor was there any conspiracy charges in the State of Florida case.

In 2007, Epstein was accused of recruiting dozens of girls, some as young as 13, for massages and sex at his mansion in Palm Beach, Fla. Under the terms of the 2008 deal, Epstein pleaded guilty to two counts of solicitation of prostitution (one with a minor under age 18) and was required to register as a sex offender. He was given immunity from federal prosecution, served 13 months in county jail and was allowed to spend his days on work release at his Palm Beach office.

Labor Secretary Alex Acosta Defends His Handling Of Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal

Acosta is under scrutiny for the 2008 deal he oversaw when he was a U.S. attorney in Florida, now that prosecutors in New York have brought a new case in which Epstein could face 45 years in prison.

www.npr.org