Epstein, Maxwell et al: exposed in child sex trafficking

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Do we have a Jefferey Epstein thread?

 
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But doing a terrible job of it. Like I said, all she is "proving" is that she is awful at Photoshop and nothing else in that article.
Without the original how will they disprove it though? Will FBI give up their evidence for a civil trial?
 
I see. News to me. Not surprised he is in the news though. He isn't in jail? I lost track of those two some time ago. After the key to the city or whatever it was, and hearing a bit more about him, I'd had my fill though.

I see a few minutes of some of Scott's once in awhile lately (not often) but must have missed that one.
He got bail to defend himself I think. Maybe there is a thread here.

(ETA just searched no thread.)
 
Without the original how will they disprove it though? Will FBI give up their evidence for a civil trial?
so if he doesn't remember the pic being taken, how does he know that this is not the original? if this is just an enlargement of the original, then it is the original for what it shows.
 
so if he doesn't remember the pic being taken, how does he know that this is not the original? if this is just an enlargement of the original, then it is the original for what it shows.
Neither Lady Victoria Hervey or Prince Andrew have to prove anything. Guiffre has already stated the FBI have the original. In a civil suit the plaintiff has the burden of proof so she has to provide the original and the evidence to prove her case.

Here are the Prince's responses via his lawyers and the Guardian as of 27 Jan '22. Not sure if this has been posted already.

Key points from Prince Andrew’s response to Virginia Giuffre’s lawsuit
 
Neither Lady Victoria Hervey or Prince Andrew have to prove anything. Guiffre has already stated the FBI have the original. In a civil suit the plaintiff has the burden of proof so she has to provide the original and the evidence to prove her case.

Here are the Prince's responses via his lawyers and the Guardian as of 27 Jan '22. Not sure if this has been posted already.

Key points from Prince Andrew’s response to Virginia Giuffre’s lawsuit
I don't know, it seems a bit of a gray area/thing. SHE has a picture as evidence. He doesn't. He says it is photoshopped but he can't prove that. Does he have a picture proving her evidence is photoshopped?

So who gave the FBI the original and where did she get her copy? I maybe should know but I honestly don't. I'm not as up on the facts as you likely are.
 
I don't know, it seems a bit of a gray area/thing. SHE has a picture as evidence. He doesn't. He says it is photoshopped but he can't prove that. Does he have a picture proving her evidence is photoshopped?

So who gave the FBI the original and where did she get her copy? I maybe should know but I honestly don't. I'm not as up on the facts as you likely are.
She is making the claim so she will have to provide proof. He is denying it so she will have to provide the original photo. That is how it works I think. I could be wrong but -
Burden of proof.
Overview. Generally, describes the standard that a party seeking to prove a fact in court must satisfy to have that fact legally established. ... In civil cases, the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence.

The FBI took all her photos apparently, when they were investigating Epstein.
 
She is making the claim so she will have to provide proof. The FBI took all her photos apparently, when they were investigating Epstein.
Well I'm just saying then that might carry some weight. The photos the FBI have are hers. And she has a copy allegedly. Did she get a copy out of thin air? They were hers to begin with then right? I'm not saying it is necessarily as good of proof as an original but it's not exactly worthless either when considering she is saying they have the same photo and she was the one it came from.

And while she may have the burden of proof (civilly though not criminally, a far lower burden), I don't know how believable it will be if he disputes a photo he never knew existed. Is he denying he was ever there?

Honestly, were I a juror, I would put weight on the fact she says the FBI has the original because I don't think most people would manufacture evidence or make such claims with the FBI involved in the bigger picture. It would be stupid and probably federally chargeable if she claimed such and it was false.
 
Well I'm just saying then that might carry some weight. The photos the FBI have are hers. And she has a copy allegedly. Did she get a copy out of thin air? They were hers to begin with then right? I'm not saying it is necessarily as good of proof as an original but it's not exactly worthless either when considering she is saying they have the same photo and she was the one it came from.

And while she may have the burden of proof (civilly though not criminally, a far lower burden), I don't know how believable it will be if he disputes a photo he never knew existed. Is he denying he was ever there?

Honestly, were I a juror, I would put weight on the fact she says the FBI has the original because I don't think most people would manufacture evidence or make such claims with the FBI involved in the bigger picture. It would be stupid and probably federally chargeable if she claimed such and it was false.
He disputes he was there and says the pic is fake. She cannot just say the pic is with "whoever" without producing it or producing a witness (an FBI agent) confirming they do actually have the original. IMO. A copy or photo would not suffice I do not think. She should be able to get it back from the FBI as it is not going to be part of a federal prosecution case, presumably.
 
He disputes he was there and says the pic is fake. She cannot just say the pic is with "whoever" without producing it or producing a witness (an FBI agent) confirming they do actually have the original. IMO. A copy or photo would not suffice I do not think. She should be able to get it back from the FBI as it is not going to be part of a federal prosecution case, presumably.
Lol I am not surprised that we look at it a bit differently. We did with Maxwell too. And that's okay. And I'm certainly not up on it all and I definitely don't know the ins and outs of this. Can she subpoena an FBI agent or picture? I have no idea but I would think so although not sure they would comply or have to or not. You say she should be able to get it back, I have no idea but maybe then she will, do we know?

So it is anyone's guess as far as I know, I'll have to see if I can fit in some Scott and he covers any of this but doubt I can right now.

This is what I do know. Andrew is a very poor and obvious liar. Civil case standards and burden and proof are farrrrr lower than criminal standards. She does have a picture and claims the FBI has the original which also is hers or came from her. There is plenty to indicate Andrew was both friends with, traveled with, saw and visited Epstein at various places and on various trips. I think she has one heck of a start right there and anything that can be added to that, even better. Like the FBI saying yes, this is just like the pic we have...

And again, it is a much lower standard the burden of proof in a civil case.

But I guess much just remains to be seen.
 
Lol I am not surprised that we look at it a bit differently. We did with Maxwell too. And that's okay. And I'm certainly not up on it all and I definitely don't know the ins and outs of this. Can she subpoena an FBI agent or picture? I have no idea but I would think so although not sure they would comply or have to or not. You say she should be able to get it back, I have no idea but maybe then she will, do we know?

So it is anyone's guess as far as I know, I'll have to see if I can fit in some Scott and he covers any of this but doubt I can right now.

This is what I do know. Andrew is a very poor and obvious liar. Civil case standards and burden and proof are farrrrr lower than criminal standards. She does have a picture and claims the FBI has the original which also is hers or came from her. There is plenty to indicate Andrew was both friends with, traveled with, saw and visited Epstein at various places and on various trips. I think she has one heck of a start right there and anything that can be added to that, even better. Like the FBI saying yes, this is just like the pic we have...

And again, it is a much lower standard the burden of proof in a civil case.

But I guess much just remains to be seen.
Basically I think Prince Andrew is calling her bluff by asking for a jury trial and denying everything, which, if he does have an alibi for that night, he should be able to prove. Scott is of the opinion it will not see a courtroom, and I tend to agree.

Also, royalty are not used to having their word challenged, so are pretty useless at explaining or justifying anything. Usually what they say goes. Privilege LOL.

Re the burden of proof in a civil case it is the balance of probability rather than reasonable doubt, I think. (correct me if that is incorrect in the US).
 
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Lol I am not surprised that we look at it a bit differently. We did with Maxwell too. And that's okay. And I'm certainly not up on it all and I definitely don't know the ins and outs of this. Can she subpoena an FBI agent or picture? I have no idea but I would think so although not sure they would comply or have to or not. You say she should be able to get it back, I have no idea but maybe then she will, do we know?

So it is anyone's guess as far as I know, I'll have to see if I can fit in some Scott and he covers any of this but doubt I can right now.

This is what I do know. Andrew is a very poor and obvious liar. Civil case standards and burden and proof are farrrrr lower than criminal standards. She does have a picture and claims the FBI has the original which also is hers or came from her. There is plenty to indicate Andrew was both friends with, traveled with, saw and visited Epstein at various places and on various trips. I think she has one heck of a start right there and anything that can be added to that, even better. Like the FBI saying yes, this is just like the pic we have...

And again, it is a much lower standard the burden of proof in a civil case.

But I guess much just remains to be seen.
Yep. I get that he might not actually remember that pic actually being taken, but that's as far as I get with believing him. I am sure he doesn't remember many things that he has done for that matter with his partying history. His vast history with Maxwell and Epstein speaks volumes to me, too. I am not necessarily saying that I totally believe his accuser, but I 100% do not believe him and he has offered no real proof of his side, but understand the burden is on her. He says he couldn't have been sweaty because of a medical condition, yet he refuses to provide proof of that claim, also. I would be producing that in public so fast to quash her claims as they come out.
 
Avenatti is a current trial where he is being sued by Stormy Daniels, so Reisch was covering the summing up by Avenatti in his own defence.
OT (we don't have a thread on this so I just wanted to post the update)

Re Aenatti

 
Basically I think Prince Andrew is calling her bluff by asking for a jury trial and denying everything, which, if he does have an alibi for that night, he should be able to prove. Scott is of the opinion it will not see a courtroom, and I tend to agree.

Also, royalty are not used to having their word challenged, so are pretty useless at explaining or justifying anything. Usually what they say goes. Privilege LOL.

Re the burden of proof in a civil case it is the balance of probability rather than reasonable doubt, I think. (correct me if that is incorrect in the US).
I can agree with most of that. Privilege, royalty and honestly what does he have to prove but he can try to pose and get his denials out there to the media, etc. even if they end up settling. So much of law and cases (and it disgusts me) is just a dance and threat and let's see if we can back someone down or scare them. I mean generally even.

If his alibi is family or friend well I myself wouldn't put much store in it and as an opposing attorney I would drill that alibi thoroughly and that person. Not up on it but I know he named his daughter and know he has said something about his ex at different times and that there has been speculation about if they would be brought in...

I can't tell you exactly on the civil standards but many cases are a prime example when a criminal conviction does not happen, the civil is easier. OJ would be a classic example here.

I can tell you this, just take a car accident or a child drowning in a neighbor's pool, it is or used to be it has to be more than 50 percent fault. I'll take the swimming pool as an example and let's say a 3 year old. Okay the suing party is the parent of the child but was that parent watching their child? No. So that puts some fault on the parent. But then did the neighbor have the pool fenced and if not, was it an enticement to a small child? Well yes. So that puts some fault on the pool owner EVEN though his property was "trespassed" on.

So it goes like that and an allotment of fault. Now if it ends up 51 percent versus 49 of who is at fault, then that sounds like a stalemate BUT if a jury says this deserves $50, million, and the parent is the one with 49 percent, the other party owes that small percentage of that $50 mill and that is still a sh*tload of money.

So the female plaintiff in this case if that is still that way, it could be said well she stayed didn't she? So partly her fault. And then it could be said well she had this opportunity or that to get out of there as years went on. So again, partly her fault. But then the jury could say well, he though knew regardless and should have never done that and he knew better and a large part of fault gets put on him...

So in that way it is very different than a criminal trial where it is guilty or not guilty. And yes, some blame could be put on her but is she most at fault...?
 
I can agree with most of that. Privilege, royalty and honestly what does he have to prove but he can try to pose and get his denials out there to the media, etc. even if they end up settling. So much of law and cases (and it disgusts me) is just a dance and threat and let's see if we can back someone down or scare them. I mean generally even.

If his alibi is family or friend well I myself wouldn't put much store in it and as an opposing attorney I would drill that alibi thoroughly and that person. Not up on it but I know he named his daughter and know he has said something about his ex at different times and that there has been speculation about if they would be brought in...

I can't tell you exactly on the civil standards but many cases are a prime example when a criminal conviction does not happen, the civil is easier. OJ would be a classic example here.

I can tell you this, just take a car accident or a child drowning in a neighbor's pool, it is or used to be it has to be more than 50 percent fault. I'll take the swimming pool as an example and let's say a 3 year old. Okay the suing party is the parent of the child but was that parent watching their child? No. So that puts some fault on the parent. But then did the neighbor have the pool fenced and if not, was it an enticement to a small child? Well yes. So that puts some fault on the pool owner EVEN though his property was "trespassed" on.

So it goes like that and an allotment of fault. Now if it ends up 51 percent versus 49 of who is at fault, then that sounds like a stalemate BUT if a jury says this deserves $50, million, and the parent is the one with 49 percent, the other party owes that small percentage of that $50 mill and that is still a sh*tload of money.

So the female plaintiff in this case if that is still that way, it could be said well she stayed didn't she? So partly her fault. And then it could be said well she had this opportunity or that to get out of there as years went on. So again, partly her fault. But then the jury could say well, he though knew regardless and should have never done that and he knew better and a large part of fault gets put on him...

So in that way it is very different than a criminal trial where it is guilty or not guilty. And yes, some blame could be put on her but is she most at fault...?
I think that is correct that she only has to achieve 51% probability she is right. Trouble is the alleged picture taker is dead and the other two people in the photo are not likely to help her case. I think I read that Andrew had met Epstein 9 times altogether which, if he was desperate to borrow money, is not that many times between 2001 and 2010. Guiffre alleges she met Andrew 4 times, UK, NY, NM and VI between 2001and 2002 and claims he sexually abused her each time. Not sure but she probably only has to prove one of those occasions presumably.
 
I think that is correct that she only has to achieve 51% probability she is right. Trouble is the alleged picture taker is dead and the other two people in the photo are not likely to help her case. I think I read that Andrew had met Epstein 9 times altogether which, if he was desperate to borrow money, is not that many times between 2001 and 2010. Guiffre alleges she met Andrew 4 times, UK, NY, NM and VI between 2001and 2002 and claims he sexually abused her each time. Not sure but she probably only has to prove one of those occasions presumably.
Agree. I think you are probably about right on with this. And we will only know when it proceeds, if it does, who will win the case. Is this one televised do you know?

In some ways it is a he said, she said but she does have some things on her side. It is not like she named some man who was never with Epstein, etc. Not that that makes Andrew guilty but I mean her case may be slightly stronger than his denial, etc...

I think of course the word is maybe posturing to a point... What does he have to lose with ensuring the media hears he denies, denies, denies and that photoshopping was done... Of course if the case is tried, as we know, the jury will decide what evidence and who is more believable. It isn't criminal.

If it is televised, Scott will likely cover it. I hope I get a few minutes here and there to watch. Assuming it isn't settled first of course.
 
I also don't believe all was about financials with his Epstein friendship but it is certainly a good way to say that is what it was all about. He has probably lost more resources and his own family and inclusion over this than the shape he was in prior. The playboy prince might be something of a catch or challenge in their younger years but it doesn't fly as well in the older years...
 
Agree. I think you are probably about right on with this. And we will only know when it proceeds, if it does, who will win the case. Is this one televised do you know?

In some ways it is a he said, she said but she does have some things on her side. It is not like she named some man who was never with Epstein, etc. Not that that makes Andrew guilty but I mean her case may be slightly stronger than his denial, etc...

I think of course the word is maybe posturing to a point... What does he have to lose with ensuring the media hears he denies, denies, denies and that photoshopping was done... Of course if the case is tried, as we know, the jury will decide what evidence and who is more believable. It isn't criminal.

If it is televised, Scott will likely cover it. I hope I get a few minutes here and there to watch. Assuming it isn't settled first of course.
No live coverge .. Federal case.
 

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