JONBENET RAMSEY: Found dead in Boulder, Colorado on Christmas Day 1996 - Age 6

Killing of JonBenét Ramsey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GrandmaBear]

I don't think the bonus was bragged about, just mentioned innocently in a comment at some sort of party. Picture it:

Fourth of July, neighbor is having a cookout. Men are gathered around the grill drinking beer while food cooks. Kids are playing while wives are in a group watching the kids out of corner of their eyes.
" How is Mark's business, Suzy? "Oh it's great! Company is doing well and we were shocked at his yearly bonus this year, it was way more than we thought!"

" Yeah, Jason's bonus was a lot too. We were able to gut the kitchen and completely remodel it, and add a 4th bathroom on the 3rd floor. Over 80,000 for everything. Thank goodness for the bonus! Hey Patsy, how is John's company doing?"

"Oh wonderfully,! He got a nice bonus of $118000. Of course we'll spend a chunk on the kids college funds and JB's pageants, haven't decided what to do with all of it yet."

I can picture this. So where does it go from there. Someone wanted to kill Jon Benet or meant to kidnap her and ask for a ransom but things went wrong?

I can totally see the BBQ and talk as likely. Where I fall down in it is a perp would go with a ransom note and hightail it with the child and want to be in and out of there. You don't kill her in her home and write a note at their desk on their notepad. Or kill at all if if you are only after money. I think these things are what it is hard to get past with almost any theory in this case. So are things like her never being seen when home searched til John magically finds her later and picks her up and so on. Any other thing can be true no doubt, no one knows, no one is charged nor likely ever will be. Anything could have happened. But those kinds of things make other theories a lot harder for me.

And a totally screwed up investigation and no containment of people or crime scene. Tons of failures.

I am game for it though. Someone was in their MI home. Her pageants and shows probably did attract some creeps and so on.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I don't think J did it. He had tragically already lost one college aged daughter a few years earlier in a horrific car wreck.

I don't lean towards him either. I also don't know if he knew immediately or not or helped cover BUT I do think over time and logically and not wanting to believe it he knews who and whath happpened and PERHAPS he helped cover from the start... Devastaed but feeling for P and his family. I don't know.

I can't not come back to her though. I've entertained him and I've entertained Burke since so many have and it isn't like they aren'\t possibilities but I come back to her every time. I come back to family for sure. Of COURSE I could be wrong, any of us could with any theory. It is just where the odds and likelihoods land me each and every time. Years ago when they did an interview I recall feeling sorry for them AND believing them, truly, leaning that way, (decades back probably), but then in going through all again and as time went on, no, I didn't.

I dont' even know that if she did it J and son knew. But I have seen a family that can't face what their son did and I KNOW in their inside they know exactly what he did. In that sense, if one of the three did it, I believe the other two may have denied it to selves but deep down knew it or did over time.

Of course it could be some random evil pedophile or anyone. I don't know anything conclusively none of us do which is why this case remains with such attention and we come back to it. If so, I will regret ever thinking or saying it was famiily but they've had millions think that long before I ever said it. Sad if it is not the case no doubt. Yet they are the parents and she was found dead in their own home so it is to be expected.

There is just a bit too many odd things that don't add up to a stranger or someone coming in to me that I can't get past. With a lot of excuses and making up reasons for coicidences I can but that's exactly what I've learned means do not fall for that if too many things have to be explained away.

I think J knows or did at a point. Right away or later. I mean he may well have been sn*wed by P and wanted to believe it and stood by her but hard to sasy which is the case. That IS of course if P did it.

I've seen the people who think it was the son. I've never went there. I've read the reasons and I could make some arguments for the possibility but I just can't go there. I will admit two parents covering for the only child left would though make sense. We've seen a few cases where parents cover for their murdering child. More than a few actually.

I lean towards P. Always have, went away, considered, came back again and landed there again. Over. And over. And over.

it is also Christmas. The perfection. The show. The parties. The hosting. The stress while trying to appear what you aren't which is calm and life is perfect. There is a lot that just always leads me back to her.

God forgive me if I am wrong. P knows. JB knows. And if P didn't do it, they are in the same place now and P has the answers of who did.

So where do you lean? I am in no way at 100 percent on what I think. 75 maybe or a bit higher. I am at like an 85 that it is family and at like 95 that it is someone known to them.

 

[Sunburst]

I go back and forth between Intruder did it, or PDI did it accidentally in a rage, then covered it up. The late Lou Smit and his research partner, another detective, had apparently compiled a list of over 200 names as possible suspects and were working their way through the list clearing people. When Smit died, there were still about 100 names that they had left to look at.

 

[Regina]

Most are what you would picture when you hear " summer place" 3-5 bedroom, couple of bathrooms, one story, kind of plain on the outside, with some landscaping but not ostentatious in any way. A few are more fancy: multistory and detailed. Prices range from about 250,000 to slightly over 2 million $$$ for the fancy ones.

Just for the record, John said their house was two-story and that JonBenet's bedroom was on the 2nd floor.

 

[Regina]

Patsy apparently tried very hard to present the illusion of a perfect family to outsiders and many friends. No problems whatsoever- kids are perfectly behaved at all times, happy marriage, absolute storybook perfection to people. From what I have read, I think she was trying to relive her youth vicariously through JB. JB wanting none of it would send P. into a rage, because there would no longer be the illusion of Perfect Family.

Where do all of those negative impressions of Patsy come from?
I truly don't understand and I'd really like to know.

 

[Regina]

I don't think the bonus was bragged about, just mentioned innocently in a comment at some sort of party. Picture it:

Fourth of July, neighbor is having a cookout. Men are gathered around the grill drinking beer while food cooks. Kids are playing while wives are in a group watching the kids out of corner of their eyes.
" How is Mark's business, Suzy? "Oh it's great! Company is doing well and we were shocked at his yearly bonus this year, it was way more than we thought!"

" Yeah, Jason's bonus was a lot too. We were able to gut the kitchen and completely remodel it, and add a 4th bathroom on the 3rd floor. Over 80,000 for everything. Thank goodness for the bonus! Hey Patsy, how is John's company doing?"

"Oh wonderfully,! He got a nice bonus of $118000. Of course we'll spend a chunk on the kids college funds and JB's pageants, haven't decided what to do with all of it yet."

The thing is, I don't think they remember ever having mentioned it and I'm not aware of anyone who said they did.
To me, the facts re the bonus are that the ransom amount was close to John's bonus and that it's info that was in the house.

 

[Regina]

I love Regina but I don't agree this was just like dress up. This was putting a child to work imo and wanting perfection. Status. Etc. My God we are lucky if our children don't have to face something they should never have to face and get a childhood that is at least partially carefree, why put such more on them at such an age.

I meant from JonBenet's perspective. I think from Patsy's perspective, participating in pageants had made a positive impact and so it follows that she'd want her daughter to benefit from it the same way she did. But JonBenet had other interests and did other things, you know, both of Patsy's children were involved in different activities.

 

[Kimster]

No, you're right, there's no attention to that yet, needless to say, it's a very disturbing circumstance.
There's also the breaking and entering/ assault (or attempted assault) of a young girl about 6 mos after the murder and not far from the Ramsey home that no one pays attention to and as far as I know, it's (also) still unsolved.

I never knew about that, until recently! The assault I mean.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I go back and forth between Intruder did it, or PDI did it accidentally in a rage, then covered it up. The late Lou Smit and his research partner, another detective, had apparently compiled a list of over 200 names as possible suspects and were working their way through the list clearing people. When Smit died, there were still about 100 names that they had left to look at.

I don't rule out anything, never do actually unless very sold on someone for many reasons and in this one that can't be done of course. I do have a lot of weight/percentage on likely family and most particularly P. I can and could easily put more weight on pedophiles, SOs and others but for some of the facts like she was in their home, the ranson note written in the home and more which puts weight for me and likelihood against anyonne outside the family that was present unless of course it was someone they had there, let in, knew about. But yeah, I've ruled out no possibiltiy, I just have a lot lower, very low percentages on someone outside of family or family knowing or being partt, or one member,two, etc. My leaning is P. Fairly strongly.

BUT that doesn't mean such could never happen either. Such has happened where someone came into a home and snatched a child for instance. Klaas. Abducted her though. Smart. Also took her out of the home. Hard ones to believe until cleared and one can see why. This though the child was killed in the home, left in the home, intruder would have had to get in and out and stop t write a ransom note at their desk on their notepad and more... Did he use their pen too. Were his prints on it? These are the reasons I lean away from such and more of course.

But again, sure could be. If so, I believe it still was someone they knew, in their circle, family, employed with them, etc. or some such. A perp uknown i just don't see, like an SO who wouldn't know how to access, where to go inside, their habits, their schedules, the homes layout and how to get out.

I think Patsy lost it (most likely) and the rest was a cover up with or without John's help and knowledge at that point at least. And I don't often think it but i do think friends or powers that be may have helped the case get entirely messed up. Partners, connections, don't know.

I remember the Smit thing, been a bit since I looked at but I have seen all over the years and back to it and so on.

So many things in my opinion have to be explained for the person to have both entered, taken JB from bed, took her to the basement, wrote a note most likely at the home and taken the time, no one to have awoken, known or the perp not worried about such(?), get out and more. So much seems so staged to me as a cover up and not in the smartest of ways.

I don't know but I do know this case will come up again for all of us and everywhere as it does with all of us it haunts over more years to come. Madeline McCann is another. Not because they are more important than other children but because they took on such watchers and no answers not only nationwide but worldwide.

I didn't expect to be back in here a few weeks ago lol.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Just for the record, John said their house was two-story and that JonBenet's bedroom was on the 2nd floor.

The Michigan one?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Where do all of those negative impressions of Patsy come from?
I truly don't understand and I'd really like to know.

I can't recall everything and you didn't ask me but I have the same impression. Wasn't there for one an instructor or costume maker that said a few things about Patsy, rages/temper at JB and the way of the whole pageant thing, the need to be perfect, win and the way she treated her? Maybe dance or voice or again a costume designer I can't recall, maybe more than one:? There were some various things and I don't recall all but I do know I form opinions from hearing enough of something or seeing it to form my opinions even if years back.

Housekeeper rings a bell too but not sure.

Maybe some is just somewhat logically added to these people sharing such things in that PR was putting her in such and was a BQ herself and it was such a be all and end all and so important to her while JB was a child who maybe showed she was just a child who would choose dress up and attention but not stress, unhappiness and hours on end of perfection and lessons and practice?

You have to in following this for the decades this has went on known of this opinion many hold? I do hold the same opinion. Facade, impressing, importance and other things were very important to PR and maybe perhaps JR too. I'd say he at least wouldn't want to be embarrassed, shamed or have some publicly known thing like this every happen in his life. Or of course lose his daughter don't get me wrong.

I think I said earlier above I also think the same of Hollywood child stars. My opinion is that no child at that age chooses it or is old enough to sign up for it or know what it entails or will lead and is what they want or know how to decide such, that takes a parent who wants that and points them in that direction and maybe even makes them think they want it.

And why is it the parent wants their child in such?

Anyhow, there is stuff that was said by people that knew her or them back when, I can't recall all but we have all watched it off and on for years and read plenty so I'd think you did too and maybe like me, also forgot who.

Other pageant parents or pagent helpers or hosts? Not sure.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The thing is, I don't think they remember ever having mentioned it and I'm not aware of anyone who said they did.
To me, the facts re the bonus are that the ransom amount was close to John's bonus and that it's info that was in the house.

Or it is the info that a family member of course knew like PR to put into a note to make it look like an outsider.

Your point is valid too so they claim they never said it to anyone outside the home or anyone who claimed they did. If fact, that narrows it again to the parents or as you may be thinking some worker like housekeeper, carpente or some such that saw a paystub which we don't even know the left around?

It certainly could be but I think the more no explanation needed is that it was Patsy who of course knew. The other requires assuming such info was there to look at, someone was in the house to see it without anyone knowing, and a lot more right on down to the actual crime and note writing, entry and so on.

These are the things that hang me and have me as my main opinion on family and most likely Patsy.

Not to say that couldn't be wrong and something way off with a ton of coincidences and a very unusual crime by some stranger in the house, doing the murder there, knowing the bonus amount, getting in and out and no one awaking and so on, couldn't be that one off case such happened in.

Jmo of course, too many coincidences and things to explain are what I use in every case. And for me way too much has to be explained away for it to be someone outside the family.

I haven't though closed out all other possibilities. And am open to them and reasons for them. Who can in this case? I can't.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I meant from JonBenet's perspective. I think from Patsy's perspective, participating in pageants had made a positive impact and so it follows that she'd want her daughter to benefit from it the same way she did. But JonBenet had other interests and did other things, you know, both of Patsy's children were involved in different activities.

I can see that. And knew what you meant I think. Meant no offense. All do like to play dressup and I am sure the attention when dolled up or giving a cute performance would have quite an effect on a small child as well.

I don't think it is abnormal at all for a parent to point a child to something they think will bring rewards, athleticism, structure, coaching, and so on throughout life and I get that. There's a fine line though of you introduce your child to something you think that of, have them watch some TV pageants or maybe for a boy the winning quarterback of the Superbowl and so on and so on or say when you are in high school you will be such a football player if you start now you may get a scholarship or what do you cal them a sports agent or talen agent who may be watching and then in college you may get the NFL agents noticing you to recruit. Sure. Olympians would be others. Start them young, start them early.

But does the child want it? Too young a child I do not believe knows. A few years in does the child still want it? Or do they know what they want or this was what they were told and taught when young?

I have to relook back at many cases but was JB not having potty accidents or was that rumor? Her wetting the bed or some such?

Kind of went off track there but back to the other, I am sure you and I and all have seen good and bad with this at normal people levels. Meaning mom was a cheerleader so gets her 3 year old some toy pompoms and tells her about it and having fun teaches her some cheers. Dad throwng a football around with kid in back yard is a lot different than sending dhim to football camps at a young age like JB being put in pageants, into voice lessons and you name it. The others are fun and hopes your child will like it and maybe develop an interest and yes, get the positive experences you had. For others it is a need to have their child and try to help their child be popular when in school and in later years as the cheerleades and quarterbacks always are and maybe is more a parent's need. Etc. Etc.

Sorry I'm tired and rambling.

Patsy wasn't dressing up with JB at home and having fun playing pageant. JB was five and already more acomplished than older children in these pageants who by the way may have had mothers some of them that let them choose how serious and as to how much practice and let them choose.

JB was 6 and so accomplished in voice and dance and show and you name it that it did not start when she was 5.

To me that's a mission. By the mom.

"Talking" it out sometimes brings other thoughts and is why I do it at times plus helps me recall.

And such brought another thought. Am I misremember or was it speculation, did Patsy not also get JB's hair bleached? That brings me to thoughts of Lori Vallow who was bleaching Tylee's hair like at the age of 3, by the way another pageant contender, and her child ended up murdered. And mom did it. Convicted.

I think that alone is some real food for thought.

Anyhow just talking it out. I don't have any time these days but do enjoy the discussion. Forgive any typoes. I worked the late shift and tired.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No, you're right, there's no attention to that yet, needless to say, it's a very disturbing circumstance.
There's also the breaking and entering/ assault (or attempted assault) of a young girl about 6 mos after the murder and not far from the Ramsey home that no one pays attention to and as far as I know, it's (also) still unsolved.

Do you have more details on that onen? Day or night for instance? Family home or sleeping? Break and enter like sneakily and how or blasted in? This rings a bell but can't remember the specifics. I feel I dismissed it for a reason back when but trying to recall why or the details.

Seriouslky asking.

 

[Regina]

I never knew about that, until recently! The assault I mean.

Yeah, my understanding of the info is that the father was out of town and the mother and daughter had been out of the house and came home sometime that eve, set the alarm, went to bed and sometime later, the mother woke-up by sounds coming from her daughter's bedroom, went there and found a man in the room who ran past her and then jumped out of a second-floor window!
Because the alarm was set after they'd arrived home (there actually may be other reasons), the father believes the perp was already in the house when his wife and daughter came home.
And was it merely coincidental that the father was out of town or if not, how could the perp have known that?
More info is that his daughter and JonBenet had danced (don't know the timeframe) at the same studio in Boulder. Again, coincidental?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yeah, my understanding of the info is that the father was out of town and the mother and daughter had been out of the house and came home sometime that eve, set the alarm, went to bed and sometime later, the mother woke-up by sounds coming from her daughter's bedroom, went there and found a man in the room who ran past her and then jumped out of a second-floor window!
Because the alarm was set after they'd arrived home (there actually may be other reasons), the father believes the perp was already in the house when his wife and daughter came home.
And was it merely coincidental that the father was out of town or if not, how could the perp have known that?
More info is that his daughter and JonBenet had danced (don't know the timeframe) at the same studio in Boulder. Again, coincidental?

So the alarm was never set prior to the man getting in the home and lying in wit or so it sounds?

Did he break glass to jump out of the 2nd story, ,or a screen or was the window up and screenless? Was it open or he stopped to open it?

Where hid he land, was this just landing on grass or hitting a deck or lower roof?

Is this an alarm that notifies a service or police? Never set off? Was it when he exited by window?

What evidence was found of the man, DNA, prints, other cameras in their neighborhood of vehicles, people, him entering?

Was it like the Ramsey's, no prints, no proof of entry and so on?

I don't know, without more info, both sounds similar in the possibility that no one has been found because there never was an intruder.

I guess I dont' see anything here showing so either but a mother claiming such. Not saying that's the case, it just isn't enough here to show something did happen.

Was the screen on the ground? Window glass? Any blood from going throught the window?

it rings distant bells and I again I feel I dismissed it or put it to the side for some reason but can't recall why.

What do you mean by there may have been "other reasons" as to arlm eing set only after arriving home?

Honestly asking/curious on all.

 

[Regina]

So the alarm was never set prior to the man getting in the home and lying in wit or so it sounds?

Well, I may have misspoke when I said the father believes the man was in the house before his wife and daughter arrived home, I mean, it could be that he believes the man was in the house before they went to bed.

What do you mean by there may have been "other reasons" as to arlm eing set only after arriving home?

I was just pointing out that I don't know whether there is another reason or reasons why- besides the alarm circumstance- that he's of that belief.
I don't know anymore about the case except that the father wasn't impressed (in a word and mildly put) with BPD's handling of his daughter's case.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Well, I may have misspoke when I said the father believes the man was in the house before his wife and daughter arrived home, I mean, it could be that he believes the man was in the house before they went to bed.

I was just pointing out that I don't know whether there is another reason or reasons why- besides the alarm circumstance- that he's of that belief.
I don't know anymore about the case except that the father wasn't impressed (in a word and mildly put) with BPD's handling of his daughter's case.

I guess there just isn't enough info here or actual case record or article and such for me to react to. That's fine, I believe there was such a report and all just hard to form an opinion based on anything much.

It is awful if this happened but with what is here, I'm not even convinced it did or there was any intruder by any means. Also if this was another dance mom in same area and not many months later, sure it could mean there is some predator after these girls but it could also mean it is another lie and maybe even meant to help P who by then I am sure was being seriously looked at.

Like I said, I seem to recall hearing this and either deciding to discard it or moving it to the side in thoughts. Maybe because of some of the things I am asking now, I can't recall. I'd need more info. I'm not asking you to get info either, don't take it that way, just that I'm not going to think it significant without knowing more is all. From what little is known here, this could have been a mom who wanted to worry her husband or get him home, etc. and didn't like his absence. It could be anything.

There could have been an intruder and could have been same perp as JB's but it just as easily could be there was no intruder in either case at all.

I would think a broken window or open window in this one would have to have resulted in some evidence. I'm really interested in that as well as how the alarm situation was. Home along with your child whether out and about or asleep after what happened to the Ramseys in the same neighborhood/area, I'd think a mom with a kid alone would have the alarm on at all times.

This was afterwards by some months you said if I recall?

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I am down a rabbit hole again. This is going to be long.
Is it just me, or has almost no attention been paid to Charlevoix, MI, where the Ramseys had a second home that was primarily used in the summer? Charlevoix has a reputation of being summer cottages/second homes. Much has been of the amount of $$$ mentioned in the ransom note.

What, if anything, happened in Charlevoix in summer 1995 or summer 1996? Something that caused someone to become enraged at a Ramsey, probably John, or to be obsessed with JonBenet?

I can picture the family at a gathering at their home or a neighbor's, maybe a 4th of July cookout. The topic of bonuses paid to different neighbors at their various jobs comes up, and Patsy innocently makes a remark about how John's bonus was close to $118,000. The wrong person overhears her say that....

Alternatively, I can't shake the feeling that the beauty pageants had something to do with her death. A pedo goes to the pageants and becomes obsessed with JB, not a family friend, but someone on the periphery who can blend into a pageant audience. That ransom note sounds like a bunch of movie cliches all strung together, as many others have mentioned.

I used to think a RDI, now I am leaning more to an intruder. DNA at the scene ruled out the Ramseys.

For me it comes down to many things, but here's two.

1. Who sits down and writes a nine page ransom note, with discarded trial notes that were thrown in the trash? After killing a child, or intending to abduct her? (Patsy could not be excluded from writing the note.)

"I have your kid. I'll call you at 10am and give you more information on how to get the kid back alive. Don't call the police!" Is what every other note would probably say to people, and it would have been written before even showing up.

Oddly, according to a police officer on the scene, neither John nor Patsy were eager to be by the phone at 10am or any other time. IMO, because they knew no calls would be coming in.

 

[Regina]

Who sits down and writes a nine page ransom note, with discarded trial notes that were thrown in the trash? After killing a child, or intending to abduct her? (Patsy could not be excluded from writing the note.)

But it isn't a fact that the note was written after JonBenet was murdered, right?
(At this point, I think it's most productive to just try to differentiate fact from opinion.)

Oddly, according to a police officer on the scene, neither John nor Patsy were eager to be by the phone at 10am or any other time. IMO, because they knew no calls would be coming in.

It isn't odd coming from Arndt, who I've seen form conclusions based on nothing but her imagination.