Karen Read accused of backing into boyfriend and leaving him to die *MISTRIAL*

This woman didn't do this. I'd be willing to bet that someone in the house did it. Someone in the house looked up "How long will it take for somebody to die in the cold." Karen couldn't have done that search.

Is there a cover up conspiracy?

 

[Guess Who]

I saw a little about this case on CourtTV tonight. Efferdently, there will be two defense witness' that will testify that the phone search for how long it takes for a body to die in the cold of hypothermia, took place at, or around, 2:07am. That's all she needs to get a not guilty verdict, in my opinion.

This isn't what I forgot, but there will be an expert to testify that the injuries sustained on the victim were not indicative of being hit by a car.

This isn't the conversation I saw tonight, it's from the night before, but I'm posting it anyway.



This is something I hadn't heard before. (It's in this video) The chief of police was driving by two days later when he found a piece of her car's taillight. That's not suspicious.

The good ol boys club is alive and well, it seems.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The good ol' boys club exists in many areas yet although new guard and old guard both do in some and that is the constant battle and infighting while one tries to retain power, get back in power, etc.

However it does not mean they killed one of their own here and for what purpose? And rather than blame some junkie or known trouble causing local criminal they framed his gf.

Her BAC is absolutely relevant and it's too bad they don't have it from the point she dropped him off.

This case reminds me of the was it dentist's wife who ran her guy down, was she a dentist too, I think they had twins? And he was having an affair?

I see the abuse and power and what happened here as two separate things. It has been well used to mean that abuse or corruption means they framed her but it doesn't. It does not mean she di don't do it and it does not mean they framed her.

If that were the case, every darned federal conviction would be overturned and the convictions in many a county in every state too as there is always someone in the ranks who is far from a moral stellar person but it does not mean they are not prosecuting legitimate cases with real facts.

It is though and should become a reason to KEEP YOUR FREAKING NOSE CLEAN or this is what can happen to you or come out. And hopefully clean up the acts of some or have them look for a job and corruption in the corporate world instead of LE and govt. positions.

 

[Summer_Breeze]

Live updates: Karen Read murder trial finishes 2nd day with 11 jurors sat, witness list revealed

One spot remains to be picked, as well as four alternates.

www.boston25news.com

By Boston 25 News Staff
April 17, 2024 at 8:12 am EDT

DEDHAM, Mass. — Four of 12 jurors are in place as the murder trial of Karen Read enters the second day of the jury selection process at Norfolk Superior Court in Dedham on Wednesday.

The high-profile case went to trial Tuesday and the court started sifting through a pool of about 90 potential jurors. The vast majority of them raised their hands when asked if they had heard of the case.

Guidelines for selecting jurors factor in whether there is “bias” or a previously formed opinion of the case exists.

Another group of 90 new potential jurors are expected to attend court on Wednesday to begin the process. Eight spots remain to be picked, as well as four alternates.

Before jury selection began, Judge Beverly Cannone said she wouldn’t exclude Read’s attorneys from using a third-party culprit defense during the trial as long as it’s “developed” through witness statements and evidence. That third-party defense won’t be allowed during initial statements.

Cannone also announced lengthy witness lists for both the prosecution and defense that include more than 160 combined names.

Read is charged with running down John O’Keefe, her Boston police officer boyfriend, and leaving him to die in a blizzard in the town of Canton on Jan. 29, 2022.

Read’s defense has argued that she is being framed and that O’Keefe was beaten and attacked by a dog inside the home of another Boston police officer.

Criminal defense attorney Peter Elikann told Boston 25 News that finding an impartial jury could be a challenge.

“We won’t find jurors that never heard of this case perhaps, but hopefully we will find jurors that have an open mind and that’s the bottom line, we need jurors with an open mind,” Elikann explained.

The trial is expected to last between 6 and 7 weeks.

 

[kdg411]

I watched Auntie Bev's spiel yesterday and there are 129 total witnesses. Wish there would have an FBI agent on there.

Wonder how long it will take to find 16 jurors???

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I watched Auntie Bev's spiel yesterday and there are 129 total witnesses. Wish there would have an FBI agent on there.

Wonder how long it will take to find 16 jurors???

I thought there was an FBI agent on the list.

 

[kdg411]

I thought there was an FBI agent on the list.

No, I watched (listened 3 times) and there wasn't one. Doesn't mean the defense can't call one in rebuttal though.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Live updates: Karen Read murder trial finishes 2nd day with 11 jurors sat, witness list revealed

One spot remains to be picked, as well as four alternates.

www.boston25news.com

By Boston 25 News Staff
April 17, 2024 at 8:12 am EDT

DEDHAM, Mass. — Four of 12 jurors are in place as the murder trial of Karen Read enters the second day of the jury selection process at Norfolk Superior Court in Dedham on Wednesday.

The high-profile case went to trial Tuesday and the court started sifting through a pool of about 90 potential jurors. The vast majority of them raised their hands when asked if they had heard of the case.

Guidelines for selecting jurors factor in whether there is “bias” or a previously formed opinion of the case exists.

Another group of 90 new potential jurors are expected to attend court on Wednesday to begin the process. Eight spots remain to be picked, as well as four alternates.

Before jury selection began, Judge Beverly Cannone said she wouldn’t exclude Read’s attorneys from using a third-party culprit defense during the trial as long as it’s “developed” through witness statements and evidence. That third-party defense won’t be allowed during initial statements.

Cannone also announced lengthy witness lists for both the prosecution and defense that include more than 160 combined names.

Read is charged with running down John O’Keefe, her Boston police officer boyfriend, and leaving him to die in a blizzard in the town of Canton on Jan. 29, 2022.

Read’s defense has argued that she is being framed and that O’Keefe was beaten and attacked by a dog inside the home of another Boston police officer.

Criminal defense attorney Peter Elikann told Boston 25 News that finding an impartial jury could be a challenge.

“We won’t find jurors that never heard of this case perhaps, but hopefully we will find jurors that have an open mind and that’s the bottom line, we need jurors with an open mind,” Elikann explained.

The trial is expected to last between 6 and 7 weeks.

Just great that they've got everyone basically in the juror pools aware of the case. Not. Far from ideal.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I watched Auntie Bev's spiel yesterday and there are 129 total witnesses. Wish there would have an FBI agent on there.

Wonder how long it will take to find 16 jurors???

Who is Aunti Bev? I'm sure either side can call witnesses as the wish and was their choice who to have on there so why wouldn't there be a fed agent if they want one?

 

[Summer_Breeze]

MSN

Fight over 'buffer zone' around Karen Read trial continues​

Story by Phil Tenser
• 12h

While jury selection for the high-profile murder trial of Karen Read drags on inside one Massachusetts courthouse, a fight over the judge's decision to establish a "buffer zone" around the building is being pushed at the state's highest court.

One justice of the Supreme Judicial Court has already denied the request, but records show an appeal was filed on Tuesday.

Read, 43, of Mansfield, is accused of hitting John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, with her vehicle outside of a home in Canton during a snowstorm on Jan. 29, 2022. Prosecutors say Read and O’Keefe had both been drinking that night.

Read and her defense team claim she is the victim of a cover-up. They claim O'Keefe was beaten inside the home, bitten by a dog and then left outside. She has pleaded not guilty to charges including second-degree murder.

Read's supporters often demonstrated outside the Norfolk Superior Court building during her pretrial hearings, and some have worn clothing with messages about the case into the courthouse.

Judge Beverly Cannone, who is hearing the case in Norfolk County Superior Court, issued an order prohibiting any demonstrations from occurring within 200 feet of the courthouse complex during the trial. Her order also prohibited the use of "audio-enhancing devices" and prevents anyone inside the court from wearing buttons, photographs, clothing, or insignia relating to the case.

Records show that SJC Associate Justice Serge Georges Jr. denied an original petition to overrule Cannone's decision on Friday. In his decision, Georges praised Cannone for rejecting an original proposal for a much larger exclusion zone and noted that her order is "content neutral."

"The buffer zone order is narrowly tailored to serve a significant government interest, namely, the integrity and fairness of the defendant's trial," Georges wrote. "Demonstrations near the courthouse threaten this interest by exposing witnesses and jurors to intimidation and harassment, undermining their ability to testify or to serve without fear of reprisal. In addition, demonstrations may expose jurors to extraneous material beyond the evidence presented at trial, improperly influencing their decision."

Records indicate that an appeal of Georges decision was filed with the SJC on Tuesday. Petitioners identified in the appeal docket include the Freedom to Protest Coalition and several individuals. A brief is also expected from the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, records show.

 

[Summer_Breeze]

Jury selection in Karen Read trial not complete after 3rd day as proceedings wrap for week

The jury selection process in the Karen Read murder trial remains incomplete after three days and the case won’t return to court on Friday.

www.boston25news.com

Boston25News.com Staff
Thu, April 18, 2024 at 1:53 PM EDT

DEDHAM, Mass — The jury selection process in the Karen Read murder trial remains incomplete after three days and the case won’t return to court on Friday.

Two additional jurors were seated on Thursday, but one who was seated on Wednesday was excused for hardship, leaving the current juror count at 12. Four alternates still need to be seated before testimony can commence.

Of the 57 potential jurors in Thursday’s pool, 41 of them told the judge they had heard or spoken about the case, 20 said they had formed opinions, and eight admitted to have formed a bias. Ultimately, just two of them were selected for the trial.

Also on Thursday, DNA analysis from Bode Labs in Virginia was entered by the prosecution, Boston 25′s Ted Daniel reported.

“A piece of hair found on the back of Read’s Lexus SUV was sent to the lab to see if it matched John O’Keefe’s DNA. The defense has been trying to get the results excluded citing a delay in testing. We haven’t seen the lab report yet,” Daniel wrote in a post on X.

<snip>

The trial will resume on Monday morning.

 

[kdg411]

Who is Aunti Bev? I'm sure either side can call witnesses as the wish and was their choice who to have on there so why wouldn't there be a fed agent if they want one?

Auntie Bev's brother, John Prescott, defended Scott Albert in a 1995 hitnrun which he served prison time for. The two families are well known to each other.

 

[GrandmaBear]

MSN

Fight over 'buffer zone' around Karen Read trial continues​

Story by Phil Tenser
• 12h

While jury selection for the high-profile murder trial of Karen Read drags on inside one Massachusetts courthouse, a fight over the judge's decision to establish a "buffer zone" around the building is being pushed at the state's highest court.

One justice of the Supreme Judicial Court has already denied the request, but records show an appeal was filed on Tuesday.

Read, 43, of Mansfield, is accused of hitting John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, with her vehicle outside of a home in Canton during a snowstorm on Jan. 29, 2022. Prosecutors say Read and O’Keefe had both been drinking that night.

Read and her defense team claim she is the victim of a cover-up. They claim O'Keefe was beaten inside the home, bitten by a dog and then left outside. She has pleaded not guilty to charges including second-degree murder.

Read's supporters often demonstrated outside the Norfolk Superior Court building during her pretrial hearings, and some have worn clothing with messages about the case into the courthouse.

Judge Beverly Cannone, who is hearing the case in Norfolk County Superior Court, issued an order prohibiting any demonstrations from occurring within 200 feet of the courthouse complex during the trial. Her order also prohibited the use of "audio-enhancing devices" and prevents anyone inside the court from wearing buttons, photographs, clothing, or insignia relating to the case.

Records show that SJC Associate Justice Serge Georges Jr. denied an original petition to overrule Cannone's decision on Friday. In his decision, Georges praised Cannone for rejecting an original proposal for a much larger exclusion zone and noted that her order is "content neutral."

"The buffer zone order is narrowly tailored to serve a significant government interest, namely, the integrity and fairness of the defendant's trial," Georges wrote. "Demonstrations near the courthouse threaten this interest by exposing witnesses and jurors to intimidation and harassment, undermining their ability to testify or to serve without fear of reprisal. In addition, demonstrations may expose jurors to extraneous material beyond the evidence presented at trial, improperly influencing their decision."

Records indicate that an appeal of Georges decision was filed with the SJC on Tuesday. Petitioners identified in the appeal docket include the Freedom to Protest Coalition and several individuals. A brief is also expected from the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, records show.

Gppd Lord. The ACLU even.

I know I see this case differently than some thus far but I also see extremes. The darned corrupt will ruin justice here or could and I have no argument that corrupt exists but the opposite extreme is not the answer either where it means every defendant is innocent. Do NOT take me wrong anyone, the fact LE or politicians or anyone in power might abuse position or be corrupt is NOT OKAY and gives this out or this claim of innocence where the accused perp may well be guilty. One cannot just go to all defendants are innocent if some part of LE is less than hones either. There is evidence in this case from what I've heard that is rarely heard and has not even been all heard yet.

So Karen Read is now a poster girl for the ACLU too? A drunk gf enjoying special priveleges generally from drinking and driving etc. as she dated a cop? I have seen absolutely no reason someone in the home would have killed one of their own and framed her. No proof, nothing. Lucky she was farmable and dropped him off right? All just worked so well for them?

One has to buy way too many things.

I think using a third party defense or whatever it was called was honestly should be prohibited (that someone else did it, who, how, etc.) but the decision the judge made was fair in that they have to develop this in testimony and facts and not just claim it is the way I took it.

I honestly don't know if I was a juror if I would find enough to convict her but I do know that one rarely heard with the defense blow out publicity that there allegedly is a ton of evidence that has not been heard yet. Everyone is like in Delphi where before it is even tried or evidence seen they are falling for one side intentionally putting one side out there.

I don't like EITHER side truth be told. In fact some on both disgust me. She disgusts me. The power abusers on the other side disgust me. When you have a cheating rotten arse you leave him you don't kill him and think you are special and his buddies are just going to let you go. You werne't the one of them, he was.

This isn't at anyone, I just don't agree and I have watched a fair bit on it, and gave links to some others now watch.

I just happen to think she killed him and the other claims are ludicrous. I think one of the las things I said was that this needs to go to trial and the same with Delphi. These cases are being decided before trial with only hearing one side and story pushed, that of the defense and tried in the public or infuenced by one side. The very side that always gripes about publicity, tained jury pools and so forth while the prosecution's way and expectation of them is to keep things close and to stay mum while one side gots on a total public relations campaign, etc. with select info.

And people go for it hook, line and sinker. It is downright scary.

I in no way believe everyone involved in this case is corrupt. No one made her go out with him or not attend the party nor drop him off or drink. Maybe she is innocent, maybe shek is not but it does not negate the need for this to be tried and evidence seen. I can believe there have been SOME big conspiracies in a very few instances in this world but not generally in most involving way too many people at this low of a level. And again for what reason?

So they were invited to a party and only he attends only to be killed at it and her framed with no one knowing she would drop him off and not attend, etc.

It just doesn't fly. It doesn't only not fly, it never takes off. Imo.

Perhaps part of why I've never really embraced this one IS because I don't like any of them. NONE. I find all pretty dislikable and with a feeling of priivilege, her included or so she thought. And that's why I don't do most Hollywood cases and some other like the rich woman with the richer husband who got a bf and put a hit on her hub was it in the Bahamas or something/ Yes, I look at but I never take them on with heart in the same way as I do with unprivileged or seriously innocent vulnerbale victims.

That this case has the ACLU now mentioned and has so much attention and resources is shocking when what case was it just today or before I hardly think of either as it gets NO attention of a black teen missing.

I realize I am going on and it is jmo and I don't know that I would find her guilty but know what I believe is the more likely happening here and I would have to see the trial and the facts.

And again I dont' like any of them. No one from that night on either side. Maybe play by the rules everyone else has to, just a suggestion.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Auntie Bev's brother, John Prescott, defended Scott Albert in a 1995 hitnrun which he served prison time for. The two families are well known to each other.

Oh. Thank you. And she has a spiel or a podcast or something?

 

[kdg411]

Oh. Thank you. And she has a spiel or a podcast or something?

No the Judge, auntie bev, refused to recuse herself even though she has a conflict of interest in this case.

I hope once the trial starts you can listen to the testimony & evidence to help perform a better opinion.

The 200' perimeter is unheard of and does hinder our Constitutional rights. IMO, this Judge is setting this case up for many grounds of appeal if KR should be found guilty. The ACLU took this issue on because it's never happened in any case before.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

No the Judge, auntie bev, refused to recuse herself even though she has a conflict of interest in this case.

I hope once the trial starts you can listen to the testimony & evidence to help perform a better opinion.

The 200' perimeter is unheard of and does hinder our Constitutional rights. IMO, this Judge is setting this case up for many grounds of appeal if KR should be found guilty. The ACLU took this issue on because it's never happened in any case before.

The ACLU doesn't care who you are or what you represent. If they think your Civil Rights are being abused, they step in. They've defended Klansmen, Rush Limbaugh, who'd never said a good word about them prior to them offering to take on his case. (He gladly accepted the help.) They'll help anyone who's Civil Rights are being assaulted. They are necessary to keep our democracy on track.

 

[kdg411]

The ACLU doesn't care who you are or what you represent. If they think your Civil Rights are being abused, they step in. They've defended Klansmen, Rush Limbaugh, who'd never said a good word about them prior to them offering to take on his case. (He gladly accepted the help.) They'll help anyone who's Civil Rights are being assaulted. They are necessary to keep our democracy on track.

Exactly! And they don't necessarily take action by request.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No the Judge, auntie bev, refused to recuse herself even though she has a conflict of interest in this case.

I hope once the trial starts you can listen to the testimony & evidence to help perform a better opinion.

The 200' perimeter is unheard of and does hinder our Constitutional rights. IMO, this Judge is setting this case up for many grounds of appeal if KR should be found guilty. The ACLU took this issue on because it's never happened in any case before.

Oh it is the JUDGE. Did not realize. Thought even your answer made her some relative of someone who defended Albert. Not used to I guess the nicknames.

I know quite a bit whether it seems so or not. I have watched some very in depth stuff and most of it leaning the way you do.

I don't like to be at odds with you one bit in opinion. I have tried to explain why I take the position I do and I'm not saying it is the correct one either. Everything out there is this one sided thing from the defense and only RARELY do I see that there is real evidence here and more on it. They definitely have made their campaign and flooded with one side effectively.

And like I said I will be honest, I don't like most here and I don't like Karen Read either. I think this case has so much more attention than some others can use that it is ridiculous.

One of the WORST people at JT actually taught me something early on when I was there. Can't stand the person as it came t be but this part was right and that is that when you have to explain too many things away it is unlikely the truth, well I kind of came to learn that one don't think that was from the person, but I think what this person said was that wild theories and having to make them fit or something like that is generally almost never the case either. Something on that order. From these things and I am just always more logic and common sense and her hitting him after a night of drinking and a turbulent relationship is far from far fetched and there is evidence and it firts--but the whole fight and killing of one of their own at a party and a dog involved and then luckily having her having dropped him off and not attending and to blame it on and yada yada yada is very far fetched. I can't put it any plainer. Imo. Can you see what I mean at all?

And again, I am not arguing the corruption of one or some. But of all?

It needs trial like Delphi. Bot have nothing but the defense being able to hold court to the public for too long.

I do not take this position to argue by any means. It's where I am truly at with it.

I have asked why they'd have done this? I have asked if his parents believe she did it or do they believe this other story? I have asked why frame her rather than someone else they dont' know, etc., some career criminal or lowlife? None of these things has anyone been able to answer here.

I have also said I am unsure if a juror I could convict her. That would take hearing and seeing the evidence.

The chance I will be able to watch it is slim. No time as you know and next week I have zilch.

My opinion though is an informed and logical one. Just because I don't live and breathe the defense claims doesn't mean I haven't watched it all or a ton on it.

I don't remember every detail always either in cases I have followed for years from day one but I do recall that I form my opinion is for a solid reason and remember some things others have forgotten. Just had a couple in the Daybell case where others were sure I had no idea what I was talking of but they were correct.

Anyhow, I also trust your opinion and know you are more invested so that matters to me as well. If she goes free, so be it. If she is found guilty, so be it. I have faith in juries and that most take the job very seriously.

 

[kdg411]

Oh it is the JUDGE. Did not realize. Thought even your answer made her some relative of someone who defended Albert. Not used to I guess the nicknames.

I know quite a bit whether it seems so or not. I have watched some very in depth stuff and most of it leaning the way you do.

I don't like to be at odds with you one bit in opinion. I have tried to explain why I take the position I do and I'm not saying it is the correct one either. Everything out there is this one sided thing from the defense and only RARELY do I see that there is real evidence here and more on it. They definitely have made their campaign and flooded with one side effectively.

And like I said I will be honest, I don't like most here and I don't like Karen Read either. I think this case has so much more attention than some others can use that it is ridiculous.

One of the WORST people at JT actually taught me something early on when I was there. Can't stand the person as it came t be but this part was right and that is that when you have to explain too many things away it is unlikely the truth, well I kind of came to learn that one don't think that was from the person, but I think what this person said was that wild theories and having to make them fit or something like that is generally almost never the case either. Something on that order. From these things and I am just always more logic and common sense and her hitting him after a night of drinking and a turbulent relationship is far from far fetched and there is evidence and it firts--but the whole fight and killing of one of their own at a party and a dog involved and then luckily having her having dropped him off and not attending and to blame it on and yada yada yada is very far fetched. I can't put it any plainer. Imo. Can you see what I mean at all?

And again, I am not arguing the corruption of one or some. But of all?

It needs trial like Delphi. Bot have nothing but the defense being able to hold court to the public for too long.

I do not take this position to argue by any means. It's where I am truly at with it.

I have asked why they'd have done this? I have asked if his parents believe she did it or do they believe this other story? I have asked why frame her rather than someone else they dont' know, etc., some career criminal or lowlife? None of these things has anyone been able to answer here.

I have also said I am unsure if a juror I could convict her. That would take hearing and seeing the evidence.

The chance I will be able to watch it is slim. No time as you know and next week I have zilch.

My opinion though is an informed and logical one. Just because I don't live and breathe the defense claims doesn't mean I haven't watched it all or a ton on it.

I don't remember every detail always either in cases I have followed for years from day one but I do recall that I form my opinion is for a solid reason and remember some things others have forgotten. Just had a couple in the Daybell case where others were sure I had no idea what I was talking of but they were correct.

Anyhow, I also trust your opinion and know you are more invested so that matters to me as well. If she goes free, so be it. If she is found guilty, so be it. I have faith in juries and that most take the job very seriously.

We don't have to agree on every case. I like that someone such as yourself truly doesn't know the 'extra' details about this case. Your point of view would make an ideal juror.

I'm not part of the Free Karen Read movement rather from the start of the investigation there are a lot of facts presented in court documents that don't make logical sense. Three witnesses, Ryan Nagel, Richie D'Antuono & Heather Maxon pulled behind Karen and their statements were that Karen was alone in her vehicle, John was not laying on the ground and her tail light was not broken. My curiosity started there and I looked for inconsistencies. There are a lot of them which is why I chose to watch channels that read the court documents so I could grasp the legal aspect.

Once the trial starts I hope we can continue this conversation. After going down the rabbit hole I'm already biased however I welcome your perspective.

 

[Guess Who]

We don't have to agree on every case. I like that someone such as yourself truly doesn't know the 'extra' details about this case. Your point of view would make an ideal juror.

I'm not part of the Free Karen Read movement rather from the start of the investigation there are a lot of facts presented in court documents that don't make logical sense. Three witnesses, Ryan Nagel, Richie D'Antuono & Heather Maxon pulled behind Karen and their statements were that Karen was alone in her vehicle, John was not laying on the ground and her tail light was not broken. My curiosity started there and I looked for inconsistencies. There are a lot of them which is why I chose to watch channels that read the court documents so I could grasp the legal aspect.

Once the trial starts I hope we can continue this conversation. After going down the rabbit hole I'm already biased however I welcome your perspective.

Soooooo many questions!

 

[GrandmaBear]

We don't have to agree on every case. I like that someone such as yourself truly doesn't know the 'extra' details about this case. Your point of view would make an ideal juror.

I'm not part of the Free Karen Read movement rather from the start of the investigation there are a lot of facts presented in court documents that don't make logical sense. Three witnesses, Ryan Nagel, Richie D'Antuono & Heather Maxon pulled behind Karen and their statements were that Karen was alone in her vehicle, John was not laying on the ground and her tail light was not broken. My curiosity started there and I looked for inconsistencies. There are a lot of them which is why I chose to watch channels that read the court documents so I could grasp the legal aspect.

Once the trial starts I hope we can continue this conversation. After going down the rabbit hole I'm already biased however I welcome your perspective.

Well that's refreshing. It truly does come from I mostly only hear the "Free Karen" side and when I do get a rare glimpse of another side it shows me it isn't all. I don't like when things all come from one side totally unlike a trial will be. And I'm sure not saying I am right nor know it as well.

interesting that three witnesses behind her state the same. Guess I'd have to know more on that and yes in that way I could be a juror. I've listened to a lot but not up on that one or don't recall. Were they all drinking?

I'd love to continue the conversation, it is anyone's guess if I will get to watch any of it. I may have to do summaries and I'd like fair ones and not one of just sold on one side. Not sure who to watch on that. Maybe STS but now that I think about it I don't know if he is taking a break or what or YT has them not popping up to me. Haven't seen them for a bit and they generally have shows almost every day or several times a week.

I am more than overjoyed that you get that I am not trying to be contrary or be at odds here and certainly not with you. With emu, I'd have to think on that one lol. Half kidding. Not totally though, he seems to see framing and corruption in almost every case imo. Yes emu I know you will likely see this and you know I think that and have said that.

it is a pet case though for both of you and I do get that and isn't one of mine. I care but never was in it from the start or overly invested. I have too many as I is that I am overly invested in lol.