LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *GUILTY*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

You know, the girls would have ordinarily been in school and so I wonder if the fact that school was out could be the reason Allen was also there at that particular time and day.
I've never been able to see the KK thing as anything more than a coincidence.

PS, I hope you're having a great day!

I can't dismiss the KK thing entirely. It's just too uncanny he was trying to meet L at the trails... At minimum were these girls looking to meet someone, anyone at the trails even... Or hope someone would be there... That age well... Meaning 13, them.

I'm not saying RA and KK are connected, I have pretty much dismissed that but then who knows... However, they were already falling for one false account... It's just odd and as often happens with us, I don't see how you can dismiss it as only coincidence lol. Again I don't mean RA and KK were even connected or knew each other, I'm just wondering if the girls' activities online or even in life and sharing their plans or hoped for plans of what they wanted to do played in... Where someone knew, overheard, someone else shared it...

he was off that day pretty sure, I always wondered, have heard he was, I think Tresir ha said he was but I saw it somewhere else in the last week or two that I took to probably be fact. What she did say about him possibly being off Sunday and Monday and working Tues through Sat is a real possibility with retail. Or even not set days off but weekends are always a must generally or at least you work one day of such. Where I'm at you are required to work half the weekends. Now you can do that by taking all Saturdays instead of every other weekend, or all Sundays instead of. I take EVERY weekend as its higher pay but that does not let anyone else off as it is a REQUIREMENT you work half of them. I trade giving me and working every single weekend for two SET days off in a row, Thurs and Fri. and in exchange for the rare time I ask for a weekend off (pretty rare I do), that I get it.

This also applies to part timers, and minors (high school) you have to work 1/2 the weekends. I know more than a couple who take every Saturday because they want Sunday off for church or family or both.

TMI because it really doesn't matter I guess but can give some insight into it so am doing. Not sure about CVS but I know this. Our department mgrs have a higher burden although they get more perks and other things that I guess they can decide if worth it. Pretty much a department manager has to be on at opening and at closing, ALWAYS. To put the money in the safe the biggest one, see to it the department is cleared, hell ensure all out, even employees eventually, doors locked, etc. and we are a bigger facility by far than any CVS. Both are open 7 days a week I'm sure and nights too.

Oh AND all have to be willing to work some nights. Doesn't mean you will in that case but need to be available and do so if asked for at least two. Managers too, maybek more for them, not sure.

Department managers I mean. The GMs (four) are a different story. Four in our store. Four department managers in my department as well.

Anyhow, my I guess long-winded point is he was full time I'm sure. And it has sounded like from more than one account his going to be a pharm tech wasn't so much about filling prescriptions which he can only do I'm sure if a pharmacist is on staff but he COULD go pull the tills, dispense money if someone was out of 5s, things like that. That's a head cahier in our store OR a department manager but again CVS is way smaller physical store.

I doubt just per our rules that if he did not work every weekend that he had two full days off and I also doubt certain nights off, etc. It varies every schedule with us but I get my two weekdays in a row because I work every weekend. Even then it is not guaranteed. They will schedule you when they need you if all of a sudden a few quit or something. It's only happend once or twice in a year and a half (been there two) that I didn't get those two days.

I guess I always have to have one I go on with or unwind with... SORRY.

And the could do it totally differen but Monday could be a usual day off for him but I wouldn't count on it. I get weekdays off as I work every full two day weekend.

All just guessing it it is retail and I'd imagine quite a bit of it is the same.

So I what exactly is your thought of him being there to school being out? I mean that's been speculated for sure yes. Do you think he was looking for any girl? Two girls? Certain age? Or was waiting for ones he could trap at the end of the bridge who actually went onto the bridge? That last part I believe his plan was to walk across when they were cornered and chase whoever down the hill. I do tend to think he knew and intended on these two but no way to be sure of that... Do you think if two of the four girls had separated and crossed the bridge, they'd have been the ones he'd have went after...?

I figure there's a good chance he knew school was out BUT I also was thinking for some reason his daughter was about Kelsi's age and in high school herself so then of course he'd have known. Recently though I saw she was a young adult and now wonder which is correct.

it's also been said (I can't confirm but saw somewhere recently wife was working but he was off). This too would make me wonder about a set schedule...I mean most married couples if could I would imagine, would have the same days off if they can work it that way. It isn't like they had little kids.

I mean he was free if she was working wasn't he... And maybe this was not a typical day off. He could have even taken one, do we know?

I'm waiting for all that and this all in going on and on made me realize too, I would almost think we'd have a CVS GM or manager as a witness called... To answer all of these things and to EVEN talk to the boxcutters they use...

Our company issued ones are junk and I've cut my fingers more times and gotten trigger finger, and more from these than a REAL bladed regular box cutter.

With precision cuts I'm assuming it was fully bladed one IF one of the weapons was a box cutter...

This may be long and wandering but towards the end, I think there's some good points in it. Shouldn't we be seeing a CVS manager I'd almost think or the HR person at least as to hours and so on...?

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I can't dismiss the KK thing entirely. It's just too uncanny he was trying to meet L at the trails... At minimum were these girls looking to meet someone, anyone at the trails even... Or hope someone would be there... That age well... Meaning 13, them.

I'm not saying RA and KK are connected, I have pretty much dismissed that but then who knows... However, they were already falling for one false account... It's just odd and as often happens with us, I don't see how you can dismiss it as only coincidence lol. Again I don't mean RA and KK were even connected or knew each other, I'm just wondering if the girls' activities online or even in life and sharing their plans or hoped for plans of what they wanted to do played in... Where someone knew, overheard, someone else shared it...

he was off that day pretty sure, I always wondered, have heard he was, I think Tresir ha said he was but I saw it somewhere else in the last week or two that I took to probably be fact. What she did say about him possibly being off Sunday and Monday and working Tues through Sat is a real possibility with retail. Or even not set days off but weekends are always a must generally or at least you work one day of such. Where I'm at you are required to work half the weekends. Now you can do that by taking all Saturdays instead of every other weekend, or all Sundays instead of. I take EVERY weekend as its higher pay but that does not let anyone else off as it is a REQUIREMENT you work half of them. I trade giving me and working every single weekend for two SET days off in a row, Thurs and Fri. and in exchange for the rare time I ask for a weekend off (pretty rare I do), that I get it.

This also applies to part timers, and minors (high school) you have to work 1/2 the weekends. I know more than a couple who take every Saturday because they want Sunday off for church or family or both.

TMI because it really doesn't matter I guess but can give some insight into it so am doing. Not sure about CVS but I know this. Our department mgrs have a higher burden although they get more perks and other things that I guess they can decide if worth it. Pretty much a department manager has to be on at opening and at closing, ALWAYS. To put the money in the safe the biggest one, see to it the department is cleared, hell ensure all out, even employees eventually, doors locked, etc. and we are a bigger facility by far than any CVS. Both are open 7 days a week I'm sure and nights too.

Oh AND all have to be willing to work some nights. Doesn't mean you will in that case but need to be available and do so if asked for at least two. Managers too, maybek more for them, not sure.

Department managers I mean. The GMs (four) are a different story. Four in our store. Four department managers in my department as well.

Anyhow, my I guess long-winded point is he was full time I'm sure. And it has sounded like from more than one account his going to be a pharm tech wasn't so much about filling prescriptions which he can only do I'm sure if a pharmacist is on staff but he COULD go pull the tills, dispense money if someone was out of 5s, things like that. That's a head cahier in our store OR a department manager but again CVS is way smaller physical store.

I doubt just per our rules that if he did not work every weekend that he had two full days off and I also doubt certain nights off, etc. It varies every schedule with us but I get my two weekdays in a row because I work every weekend. Even then it is not guaranteed. They will schedule you when they need you if all of a sudden a few quit or something. It's only happend once or twice in a year and a half (been there two) that I didn't get those two days.

I guess I always have to have one I go on with or unwind with... SORRY.

And the could do it totally differen but Monday could be a usual day off for him but I wouldn't count on it. I get weekdays off as I work every full two day weekend.

All just guessing it it is retail and I'd imagine quite a bit of it is the same.

So I what exactly is your thought of him being there to school being out? I mean that's been speculated for sure yes. Do you think he was looking for any girl? Two girls? Certain age? Or was waiting for ones he could trap at the end of the bridge who actually went onto the bridge? That last part I believe his plan was to walk across when they were cornered and chase whoever down the hill. I do tend to think he knew and intended on these two but no way to be sure of that... Do you think if two of the four girls had separated and crossed the bridge, they'd have been the ones he'd have went after...?

I figure there's a good chance he knew school was out BUT I also was thinking for some reason his daughter was about Kelsi's age and in high school herself so then of course he'd have known. Recently though I saw she was a young adult and now wonder which is correct.

it's also been said (I can't confirm but saw somewhere recently wife was working but he was off). This too would make me wonder about a set schedule...I mean most married couples if could I would imagine, would have the same days off if they can work it that way. It isn't like they had little kids.

I mean he was free if she was working wasn't he... And maybe this was not a typical day off. He could have even taken one, do we know?

I'm waiting for all that and this all in going on and on made me realize too, I would almost think we'd have a CVS GM or manager as a witness called... To answer all of these things and to EVEN talk to the boxcutters they use...

Our company issued ones are junk and I've cut my fingers more times and gotten trigger finger, and more from these than a REAL bladed regular box cutter.

With precision cuts I'm assuming it was fully bladed one IF one of the weapons was a box cutter...

This may be long and wandering but towards the end, I think there's some good points in it. Shouldn't we be seeing a CVS manager I'd almost think or the HR person at least as to hours and so on...?

There was definitely more than one person involved in this.

 

[GrandmaBear]

You know, the girls would have ordinarily been in school and so I wonder if the fact that school was out could be the reason Allen was also there at that particular time and day.
I've never been able to see the KK thing as anything more than a coincidence.

PS, I hope you're having a great day!

To your other part, your PS. It was a work day and so so, my Monday.

But maybe you are asking about yesterday. I had a great day out with one daughter, two sisters and my mom. It was a gorgeous fall day and we met not exactly in the middle between where we all live, was closer for us this time than for them WI/MN and one sister had to not travel at all as she lives in the "middle". One hour for us two, two hours (one way) for the other two. And sister who resides where we met.

We started at of all places Tractor Supply as my mom had seen a few YT videos that had something on them that she wanted for Christmas decorations. We failed to find them. But our very first stop we were just enjoying a day OUT and never seeing each other and a girls' trip and it wasn't very busy in there and we had the clerk cracking up by the end. Who took a picture for us. We told her we might be back and forgive us for being a bit zany and she said please DO come back lol. She was fun herself.

Just one example of a very good day and a fun start. Hit mostly thrift/cool junk shops, etc. Lunch. Busier than heck. Such nice people everywhere. We got there about 10 the two of us (daughter and I), the other three including the one that lives there had been together since about 9:30 and had some coffee and hit Dollar Tree. This town/city has the BEST Dollar Tree, been there a few times on my own even I've ever seen. You can find absolutely everything you've ever seen at that one whereas most just have some of this, some of that and it varies. However, we weren't there when they did that lol.

O/T but it was a great day. I think we all needed it and were just up for it. So the group started, full group around 10 and hit five places maybe and lunch? We took some time over lunch because you really don't get to catch up while shopping PLUS the place was SO BUSY we had a lot of time, food did not come fast so we got to sit and visit.

I will end the O/T but we left around 4 and we were home by 5 or thereabouts. My sister and mom were home at about 6. One hour versus two. We ended our day at the sister's who lives there and sat again and had some fun catching up. So in SIX hours (without travel) you can have a wonderful day together and we did.

I'm thinking that's what your P.S. was about, that day, because I know I told you we were going and I was looking forward to.

We were all like we need to do this more often and when is our next time...?

I miss my family with this job, schedule and distance.

I better stop, don't want to end up slapped as I am way off topic and long..........

 

[RoundPeg]

Yep, I think that is the key to identifying the gun the bullet came from.

The problem i had is that it seemed to take a whole day to show that simple fact to the jury. I just hope they didn't lose interest and that they followed the science fully.

I would have died from a whole day of that. I've also said I would be a horrible juror.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Officer recalls interview that preceded Richard Allen's arrest in Delphi murders trial

Saturday's court session centered around a police lieutenant's interview that preceded Richard Allen's arrest in the Delphi murders case.

eu.indystar.com

DELPHI — Exactly two years after police made an arrest in the killings of Delphi teens Abigail “Abby” Williams and Liberty “Libby” German, a lieutenant recounted the interview that they say helped place a suspect in custody.
Saturday, Lt. Jerry Holeman returned to the stand in Carroll County Circuit Court in the trial against Richard Allen to recount his discussion with the Delphi man on Oct. 26, 2022.
Allen, 52, is accused of killing two teens who went missing Feb. 13, 2017, and were found dead the next day. He was arrested in 2022 and faces two counts of murder and two counts of murder while kidnapping in the deaths of Williams and German.
Holeman recalled bringing Allen in for questioning to inquire about the unspent cartridge found near the girls’ bodies, a key piece of evidence in the case.
During the interview, Holeman said he asked Allen about how the bullet at the scene was linked to the gun found at his home. Allen did not have an explanation, Holeman said.
Allen went on to say no one ever borrowed his Sig Sauger firearm, his clothes nor his car, Holeman stated. Allen also said he did not carry his gun with him when he went to the trails on Feb. 13, 2017.
Holeman said Allen’s demeanor during the interview was “calm, normal,” at first, but became increasingly agitated as he continued being asked about the round. Holeman said Allen also showed signs of being deceitful, such as looking down and touching his face. He acknowledged the signs were “subtle.”
By the end of the interview, Holeman said he told Allen that he, and Allen’s wife, don’t think he’s a bad person, to which Allen replied, “What good person would kill two girls.”
Andrew Baldwin, one of Allen’s defense attorneys, during cross-examination pointed out that Holeman looked down during his testimony, remarking whether that was a sign of deception.
Baldwin also pointed out the beginning of Allen’s 2022 interview was not recorded because of technical difficulties, saying it’s one of the “many missing videos” in the case. He also asked Holeman about the possibility of more than one person’s involvement in the case, as well as whether the voice heard in the “Bridge Guy” video was of someone not in the picture’s frame.
The trial is set to resume Monday after a break Sunday.

I'm falling all over at various points in catching up a bit so I know in another post you asked what people think, etc. about this evidence, the expert, etc.

I think it's solid. And I've listened to a lot of retired big time LE, etc. who have all this knowledge on this stuff. She's an expert, the D attorneys are not and yet they keep testifying. And there will ALWAYS be defense experts (not there yet) who will try to attack the science as will D attorneys. It is up to the jury to believe who they believe. This woman was on the stand all darned day and I think she MORE than held her own. They've probably talked to their expert, did some research to debunk or attack (the D), I'm going to snark a bit, maybe FINALLY did some work on the case and some research... Not at anyone, I just don't have a very high opinion of them.

I can name some I've listened to and even look at Kimster's post with the explanation that the barrel, etc. of every single gun is different or the marks it will make.

PLUS RA was THERE, he PLACED himself there. Then he has the right type of GUN. There's just so much.

Some try to make it less than that but it's not, I mentioned in another post how many things add up with just this bullet. Too many coincidences they have to explain (the D). I learned this long ago in my first year of following crime online. I could come up with things for every piece of this or that and someone once pointed out to me who had followed a lot longer, yes, but what are the odds thered' be so many things you have to explain or fix....

Since then I get to about three in a case and I'm done. Might give 4 if they're not that huge...

I simply HOPE they can make this clear to a jury and in closing arguments. There really is a LOT and I'm must talking of one thing and we aren't done yet... Jus talking the bullet.

I will admit I am not happy with the loss of things, like recordings taped over and I'd bet though the P and even LE wished this had NOT happened.

I'm not one who buys into again so many things that they have to try to get thrown out (the D) or explain away, too many coincidences, for RA, or in any case. That alone has me convicting him and all we knew even before this trial, and THEN there are confessions we haven't heard yet.

I'm also not going to say that I am not hoping still they have MORE agsinst him but there's enough. And I don't say that lightly. I could never take away someone's freedom or make that decision if I thought there was too much doubt.

It really isn't as difficult as they've tried to make it, that's what the D over the top O thing and everything they could throw at it was, I see through the sn*w. Pare it down from all the distraction and it really is all there.. Always has been.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

I think the expert held her own and did fantastic, from all I've heard anyhow. And that B and R keep testifying in their questions and acting as if they are on level with the expert. The testifying crap need stop stop and inserting false hoods but I guess if the P objected every time and Gull ruled for them (rightly so in such a case) they may worry it would appear the D is being come down on too much... That's what they've done here and always have and want it to look like...

That's how I see it.

AGain just my opinion and just responding to the overall thing with the firearms expert, etc.

I don't believe this is junk science at all.

I could tell stories of supposed D experts... On other subjects as well. Yet lol we are not even to the D experts yet, just the D testifying and acting as if they are as expert as she is... I wonder if they are texting help to the attys as happened in our trial ( a big NO NO). Their expert I mean... Or one of RA's family members... Happens in ours as well...

Okay ENOUGH BY ME.

I will end this by saying what I always do. I overall trust juries. And no matter what anyone says or the one offs they can come up with, I do. All imo are smarter than the news people generally who also don't know courtroom or legal sh*t some of them as all they are made to cover are politics and going with nothing but a notepad and no time to pee without losing a seat....?

I am hoping for rmore here but there is plenty for me and as I said always has been BUT we are going to have to listen to the whole D part, well actually I don't have to lol but that's still to come. But there's a lot of P I am waiting for yet first.

I trust juries in general, and they are asking good questions, paying attention and more than a few said both sides picked a good one they feel.

 

[Tresir]

I'm falling all over at various points in catching up a bit so I know in another post you asked what people think, etc. about this evidence, the expert, etc.

I think it's solid. And I've listened to a lot of retired big time LE, etc. who have all this knowledge on this stuff. She's an expert, the D attorneys are not and yet they keep testifying. And there will ALWAYS be defense experts (not there yet) who will try to attack the science as will D attorneys. It is up to the jury to believe who they believe. This woman was on the stand all darned day and I think she MORE than held her own. They've probably talked to their expert, did some research to debunk or attack (the D), I'm going to snark a bit, maybe FINALLY did some work on the case and some research... Not at anyone, I just don't have a very high opinion of them.

I can name some I've listened to and even look at Kimster's post with the explanation that the barrel, etc. of every single gun is different or the marks it will make.

PLUS RA was THERE, he PLACED himself there. Then he has the right type of GUN. There's just so much.

Some try to make it less than that but it's not, I mentioned in another post how many things add up with just this bullet. Too many coincidences they have to explain (the D). I learned this long ago in my first year of following crime online. I could come up with things for every piece of this or that and someone once pointed out to me who had followed a lot longer, yes, but what are the odds thered' be so many things you have to explain or fix....

Since then I get to about three in a case and I'm done. Might give 4 if they're not that huge...

I simply HOPE they can make this clear to a jury and in closing arguments. There really is a LOT and I'm must talking of one thing and we aren't done yet... Jus talking the bullet.

I will admit I am not happy with the loss of things, like recordings taped over and I'd bet though the P and even LE wished this had NOT happened.

I'm not one who buys into again so many things that they have to try to get thrown out (the D) or explain away, too many coincidences, for RA, or in any case. That alone has me convicting him and all we knew even before this trial, and THEN there are confessions we haven't heard yet.

I'm also not going to say that I am not hoping still they have MORE agsinst him but there's enough. And I don't say that lightly. I could never take away someone's freedom or make that decision if I thought there was too much doubt.

It really isn't as difficult as they've tried to make it, that's what the D over the top O thing and everything they could throw at it was, I see through the sn*w. Pare it down from all the distraction and it really is all there.. Always has been.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

I think the expert held her own and did fantastic, from all I've heard anyhow. And that B and R keep testifying in their questions and acting as if they are on level with the expert. The testifying crap need stop stop and inserting false hoods but I guess if the P objected every time and Gull ruled for them (rightly so in such a case) they may worry it would appear the D is being come down on too much... That's what they've done here and always have and want it to look like...

That's how I see it.

AGain just my opinion and just responding to the overall thing with the firearms expert, etc.

I don't believe this is junk science at all.

I could tell stories of supposed D experts... On other subjects as well. Yet lol we are not even to the D experts yet, just the D testifying and acting as if they are as expert as she is... I wonder if they are texting help to the attys as happened in our trial ( a big NO NO). Their expert I mean... Or one of RA's family members... Happens in ours as well...

Okay ENOUGH BY ME.

I will end this by saying what I always do. I overall trust juries. And no matter what anyone says or the one offs they can come up with, I do. All imo are smarter than the news people generally who also don't know courtroom or legal sh*t some of them as all they are made to cover are politics and going with nothing but a notepad and no time to pee without losing a seat....?

I am hoping for rmore here but there is plenty for me and as I said always has been BUT we are going to have to listen to the whole D part, well actually I don't have to lol but that's still to come. But there's a lot of P I am waiting for yet first.

I trust juries in general, and they are asking good questions, paying attention and more than a few said both sides picked a good one they feel.

Ok nobody can be texting them during the trial as nobody is knowing what the witness is saying, unless the witness goes over lunch or across the days. The gun expert went over lunch and Lt Holeman went over into Saturday morning.

I am going to list what goes against RA.

1. He admits he was there.
2. He admits he saw the three girls.
3. The girls testify they saw him and the time is verified by the time of a photo they took shortly before.
4. Another witness saw the three girl witnesses crossing the Old State road, which also confirmed the time he began walking the trails.
5. The bullet at the scene is confirmed to have come from his gun.
6. He is caught on video and audio on Libby's phone. He confirmed he was wearing similar clothes and was on the bridge.
7. His car is caught on the Hoosier store video.
8. Two other witnesses saw him - one saw him leaving muddy and bloody, one saw him on the bridge.
9. He has confessed more than 60 times. One of his confessions mentions a CVS boxcutter that he disposed of in a CVS dumpster. Noone else knew a boxcutter could have been the murder weapon when he confessed to that.
10. He no longer has the phone he had in February 2017, despite having kept numerous other phones.
11. No other adult male was on the trails or bridge at the specific times.

If i remember or learn of any more, i will add them, but this is plenty so far, hopefully. More than i thought really.

One other thing. He had to have seen Abby and Libby because he was on the bridge when the witness BB saw him and she then turned around and passed Abby and Libby heading to the bridge.

Another thing i have just thought about. Dulin met him and interviewed him and knew he had been there that day. Why didn't anybody follow that up?

This is from Dulin's testimony i posted upthread.

"Dulin said he took handwritten notes which included Allen’s phone number. Dulin said he wrote up his notes into a Word document and turned it into investigators."

I wonder if he turned it into local or state investigators?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Ok nobody can be texting them during the trial as nobody is knowing what the witness is saying, unless the witness goes over lunch or across the days. The gun expert went over lunch and Lt Holeman went over into Saturday morning.

I am going to list what goes against RA.

1. He admits he was there.
2. He admits he saw the three girls.
3. The girls testify they saw him and the time is verified by the time of a photo they took shortly before.
4. Another witness saw the three girl witnesses crossing the Old State road, which also confirmed the time he began walking the trails.
5. The bullet at the scene is confirmed to have come from his gun.
6. He is caught on video and audio on Libby's phone. He confirmed he was wearing similar clothes and was on the bridge.
7. His car is caught on the Hoosier store video.
8. Two other witnesses saw him - one saw him leaving muddy and bloody, one saw him on the bridge.
9. He has confessed more than 60 times. One of his confessions mentions a CVS boxcutter that he disposed of in a CVS dumpster. Noone else knew a boxcutter could have been the murder weapon when he confessed to that.
10. He no longer has the phone he had in February 2017, despite having kept numerous other phones.
11. No other adult male was on the trails or bridge at the specific times.

If i remember or learn of any more, i will add them, but this is plenty so far, hopefully. More than i thought really.

One other thing. He had to have seen Abby and Libby because he was on the bridge when the witness BB saw him and she then turned around and passed Abby and Libby heading to the bridge.

Another thing i have just thought about. Dulin met him and interviewed him and knew he had been there that day. Why didn't anybody follow that up?

This is from Dulin's testimony i posted upthread.

"Dulin said he took handwritten notes which included Allen’s phone number. Dulin said he wrote up his notes into a Word document and turned it into investigators."

I wonder if he turned it into local or state investigators?

I was talking of how texts went on during our trial and by the way no phones were to be on or used and she was slaying it right on the rail for the judge and all to see and the D attorney taking it and looking at it. We complained to our advocate and something was finally done but not nearly what should have been. Of course we weren't searched for phones or anything, just told they had to be off and no one using them, etc. inside the courtroom. And then the experts were doing the same from rooms outside the courtroom, like when our expert was up, telling the D what to ask ours. It was sickening. No, it probably can't be going on here or at least it shouldn't be...

Your list is awesome and it and more around it should be used in the closing and hammered home.

I don't need to be convinced as I am convinced. There's even more there than I thought too and yet I knew of every single thing but seeing it put together helps imo.

We've always known, you and I anyhow I think, and others, just the fact he places himself there is the thing he and his attorneys just cannot get around. It's the big one, but the rest is as well, huge. They can try to attack the bullet or science, they can try to attack the confessions and claim mental state, they can try to attack everything, but they CANNOT remove RA. And having to attack individually a ton of separate things and issues is again way too many coincidences/things and I learned that one VERY WELL. It's too much, it was HIM.

And we're not even done yet... Trial is underway...

I have no idea who he turned his word doc into or who cleared the tip or why it was cleared re the Dulin thing. We couldn't watch the testimony of course, thank you Judge Gull (NOT) but from all I heard, he did better than I would have expected on the stand and was not the shambles I thought it might be just because I've figured he was a total doofus, hence my spelling his name always Doolin. Had a lot more training than I expected, etc.

I've also always wondered if he knew RA but he said no and I believe it. The one thing that surprised me but didn't really as I always figured it might be the case but it was always said it was lost or that's what we somehow thought from someone, is he never went to record this interview, intended to, etc. He was just back in town and at this point I guess I'd say they were just "vetting" tips and then if anything significant I suppose would go back, formally interview, and record... It was early days. Now I don't necessarily agree with that but it doesn't surprise me... I think in this day and age the smartest thing they can do is record absolutely every single thing they can.

I'm going to add this--why would anyone in LE want this tip LOST? That makes no sense at ALL, it would HELP them and have a lot earlier had they had it. And someone CLEARED it, green lighted it. And it ended up in a wrong box and so on.

IF there's any conspiracy I think most need to realize it isn't against RA, but that one person somewhere may have been FOR him and PURPOSELY lost it. I'm not even sure I believe that. I think we have a lot of disorganization and incompetence. And remember they moved, elections change officials and more and I don't mean this was about an election, I mean employees come under new bosses and so on in sheriff's departments all of the time. DAs change, sheriffs change, etc.

It could have even been a pile of tips meant to be looked at, someone rushed to do and then got thrown in a box when things were being moved. Who the heck knows...

BUT it would have been better all around for the case to be solved and for LE to have known about RA years before, not better for them to have lost it. The bullet would have been matched years before, they may still have found he had the phone, gotten records, blood stained clothing may have been found, etc.

I want those who think there's a conspiracy against RA to think about that once... Really think about it. This did not benefit the investigation one bit.

It's pretty clear it's more incompetence and screw ups than anything.

But to go back to your list, there's still plenty that cannot be explained away and because there was plenty, they were able to go ahead with it. AND it's not over.

I'm convinced and have been for a long time and it would take a lot to change that. We all know the D has had to attack everything and try to get all thrown out and it's way too much they need gone... RA panicked in what he knows they have and confessed. More.

I also get others waiting to make up their mind. That's Tom too. I totally get it but I already see it and your list was a big part of why. And I'm sure we could add to it. And if I had more time lol...

That has to be all tied together and shown clearly exactly what it DOES show and it DOES show it. Along with whatever else they have that is still coming.

We KNOW there are recorded confessions to his wife and mom... And I suspect we are going to hear total shock and panic in them by those he is telling while they tell him to shut up, stop... Because they both don't want to hear it and they realize it is being recorded and he is done for...

But then we are going to have to listen to the defense try to take apart way too many things. Well actually I'll thank Gull for that one, I don't have to listen to any such thing.

That's where I'm at. Always have been and if anything even more cemented now for more reason.

 

[GrandmaBear]

@Tresir

I want to address one thing as don't think I did. Last night I fell into that clicking that one of "see more posts" and every single time in a thread I do that I miss posts actually. I had seen your thing about height earlier in the day and even a day before I think but then never came across it again last night, starting even a bit further behind and thinking I read all from that point on, but nope. Recalling a couple I did not run into which I planned on responding to. Why it works like that, no idea but it does. And I read all to the end from where I landed and never ran into it again.

At first I'd have said just due to it was that year that RA changed his height for sure to confuse about him being the man that did this. Then though I realized being taller wouldn't necessarily help him since some think BG was taller...? But wasn't this March of like 2017? So early days... And at that point he wouldn't have been aware of much and may have worried the witnesses and other things would have pinpointed him as obviously shorter so he increased it...? That's my leaning...

'Dulin I think it was did a test and changed his son's height... Put down 5'11 and then he went back and his son's height at the age of like 8 (can't recall exact age) was 5'11 which we know is NOT probably the case for an 8 year old. This proves that if RA had changed his height in 2017 right after the murders it would have went back and changed it for every license but it would not mean he changed it in the years before which the D tried to imply was possible.

I WONDER if with the pack rat they found any old fishing licenses...

By the way your thing about he had so many of his old phones but NOT THAT phone is HUGE. And I knew that too, but thinking of all that and putting it down in a list really helps center most of it.

So in thinking about it a lot, I think and did at first, then wavered, that he changed his height not due to what he feels is shortness but I do think he has an issue with it, but because he figured any changes, growing a beard, shaving a beard, dressing different, losing or gaining weight, would throw things off if any witness described him or his height well, etc. Hey I've fudged ten pounds on a dirver's license, not unusual right? Funny they don't weight ya but they don't lol. I'm not going to be heavier I'm going to be lighter and I did that even when rail thin (I'm not now but was a lot of my life). But two inches in height? That's major and there's a reason for it.

Again if they came across even one older fishing license... That he still had... and if 2016 and it had his actual height, even better...

This was another area the D irritated me versus I could have laughed my arse off at. Like could anyone have done this with his credit card etc., get his and KA's licenses and I think they were also trying to leave open KA having done it but how are they going to have her lie if she never takes the stand... The other hint seemed to be may LE did it. GIVE ME A BREAK. I hope no one is buying into that depth of a conspiracy theory. Some out there have lost their collective minds...

We have the cell phone stuff still coming, the confessions and a lot more.

But imo there's enough without anything more. There's plenty. Always has been.

The D is going to try to get to those people (and the jury) with more total blizzards I'm sure. I'm not impressed so far with them, they've made not a single inroad with me but I'm sure they think they have overall.

This is their time of course to pull all the BS Ds do when they have a limelight and even without with some. Like inserting false facts and testify themselves in every questions. Such should NEVER be allowed. I recognize this for what it is very well, but does every member of the jury? I'm sure some do because it's a common practice and they will inform the others I'd hope when it comes time to discuss.

Well, losing my time to get ready for day 2 of another long one... Better at least start doing it here and there. And what I call a back to back tonight. Done after 8 tonight back at 8:30 tomorrow morning. At least it's not 9:30 and back at 7. A friend of mine gets 5s (ams) after closing. I have never gotten those thank God. So not the worst one either that I've ever had tonight to tomorrow but they aren't fun. Once in a blue moon one gets the opposite after. You went in early so you work til only 5 or i6 and don't have to be back til noon or one the next day. The reverse part I LIKE, more of a break in between shifts. They are way more rare though...

Anyhow, you've had some really good points and the list that I think we could even add to about what says he is guilty was great.

Where do you lean with the height change and the why? The above is where I'm at with it...

 

[RoundPeg]

Day 8 WTHR

 

[GrandmaBear]

I watched WTHR the other night about the firearms expert and I had a lot to say to them. Didn't say it but had a lot to say.

I had no time so went with something short. I then watched Nate and boyi oh boy the difference with full reporting as to questions and answers.

Not impressed with them, sorry. And all things here are the statements of a possible killer who also changed his times and more so I don't give them much credence.

And the channel itself I no longer do either because they are swinging one way imo and I wonder honestlyk if they ever got the leaked stuff as they are definiitely doing news in one direction if one reason between the lines, they might try on occasion, but it came through totally the other night to me and not for the first time. Agenda? Bias? Sensationalism? Not sure.

Pretty much don't give them any credence any longer there.

And that's just my opinion. I consider it pretty junky reporting compared to what is really going on in the courtroom. If I get time I may even go tell them LOL.

 

[Kimster]

So would you say because of this, you are a pretty firm believer in the science they used here to say it was Allen's bullet?

I have no idea because I didn’t see it for myself, but I do know the science is there, yes.

 

[Tresir]

Day 8 WTHR

Ok i saw this and it pretty much corresponds with the two i posted of his testimony Friday p.m. and Saturday a.m The only thing i didnt know was what she said at the end. The jury are going to see the video of Holeman's two interviews with RA. Not sure what the point of that is. Does anyone know?

 

[Tresir]

@Tresir

I want to address one thing as don't think I did. Last night I fell into that clicking that one of "see more posts" and every single time in a thread I do that I miss posts actually. I had seen your thing about height earlier in the day and even a day before I think but then never came across it again last night, starting even a bit further behind and thinking I read all from that point on, but nope. Recalling a couple I did not run into which I planned on responding to. Why it works like that, no idea but it does. And I read all to the end from where I landed and never ran into it again.

At first I'd have said just due to it was that year that RA changed his height for sure to confuse about him being the man that did this. Then though I realized being taller wouldn't necessarily help him since some think BG was taller...? But wasn't this March of like 2017? So early days... And at that point he wouldn't have been aware of much and may have worried the witnesses and other things would have pinpointed him as obviously shorter so he increased it...? That's my leaning...

'Dulin I think it was did a test and changed his son's height... Put down 5'11 and then he went back and his son's height at the age of like 8 (can't recall exact age) was 5'11 which we know is NOT probably the case for an 8 year old. This proves that if RA had changed his height in 2017 right after the murders it would have went back and changed it for every license but it would not mean he changed it in the years before which the D tried to imply was possible.

I WONDER if with the pack rat they found any old fishing licenses...

By the way your thing about he had so many of his old phones but NOT THAT phone is HUGE. And I knew that too, but thinking of all that and putting it down in a list really helps center most of it.

So in thinking about it a lot, I think and did at first, then wavered, that he changed his height not due to what he feels is shortness but I do think he has an issue with it, but because he figured any changes, growing a beard, shaving a beard, dressing different, losing or gaining weight, would throw things off if any witness described him or his height well, etc. Hey I've fudged ten pounds on a dirver's license, not unusual right? Funny they don't weight ya but they don't lol. I'm not going to be heavier I'm going to be lighter and I did that even when rail thin (I'm not now but was a lot of my life). But two inches in height? That's major and there's a reason for it.

Again if they came across even one older fishing license... That he still had... and if 2016 and it had his actual height, even better...

This was another area the D irritated me versus I could have laughed my arse off at. Like could anyone have done this with his credit card etc., get his and KA's licenses and I think they were also trying to leave open KA having done it but how are they going to have her lie if she never takes the stand... The other hint seemed to be may LE did it. GIVE ME A BREAK. I hope no one is buying into that depth of a conspiracy theory. Some out there have lost their collective minds...

We have the cell phone stuff still coming, the confessions and a lot more.

But imo there's enough without anything more. There's plenty. Always has been.

The D is going to try to get to those people (and the jury) with more total blizzards I'm sure. I'm not impressed so far with them, they've made not a single inroad with me but I'm sure they think they have overall.

This is their time of course to pull all the BS Ds do when they have a limelight and even without with some. Like inserting false facts and testify themselves in every questions. Such should NEVER be allowed. I recognize this for what it is very well, but does every member of the jury? I'm sure some do because it's a common practice and they will inform the others I'd hope when it comes time to discuss.

Well, losing my time to get ready for day 2 of another long one... Better at least start doing it here and there. And what I call a back to back tonight. Done after 8 tonight back at 8:30 tomorrow morning. At least it's not 9:30 and back at 7. A friend of mine gets 5s (ams) after closing. I have never gotten those thank God. So not the worst one either that I've ever had tonight to tomorrow but they aren't fun. Once in a blue moon one gets the opposite after. You went in early so you work til only 5 or i6 and don't have to be back til noon or one the next day. The reverse part I LIKE, more of a break in between shifts. They are way more rare though...

Anyhow, you've had some really good points and the list that I think we could even add to about what says he is guilty was great.

Where do you lean with the height change and the why? The above is where I'm at with it...

Not sure about the height change. I mean he is 5'5" in his latest mugshot so it is not a big difference. People can lose height a little as they age so it's possible he was 5'6" when he was a bit younger.

 

[RoundPeg]

Ok i saw this and it pretty much corresponds with the two i posted of his testimony Friday p.m. and Saturday a.m The only thing i didnt know was what she said at the end. The jury are going to see the video of Holeman's two interviews with RA. Not sure what the point of that is. Does anyone know?

You can see demeanor, body language, tone, etc. Plus word for word. Minus the parts that didn't get recorded.

 

[RoundPeg]

That's where I am. I would love to see and hear what was actually happening instead of somebody going by telling us their interpretation hours after they witnessed it.

Very frustrating. I was reading on X this morning and so many interpretations. I try to find different sources because there is no way one person is getting it word for word. Agh.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I have no idea because I didn’t see it for myself, but I do know the science is there, yes.

Pretty much how I feel about it. I don't doubt the science but of course you need to know who the examiner was, how it was done, and all of that or as you say, did not see it for yourself. Debunking the science though doesn't fly with me. I've seen way too much otherwise from way too many to doubt it.

 

[RoundPeg]

Wasn't it Lori Vallow Daybell's trial where the previous day's transcripts could be purchased? I think Nate and other outlets split the cost.

Are the transcripts available in Delphi?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Ok i saw this and it pretty much corresponds with the two i posted of his testimony Friday p.m. and Saturday a.m The only thing i didnt know was what she said at the end. The jury are going to see the video of Holeman's two interviews with RA. Not sure what the point of that is. Does anyone know?

I didn't watch it as the last I watched of them I was not okay with. But why shouldn't they see every recorded thing there is that exists? I myself am WAITING for what's recorded. Like the confessions to wife. Recordings are solid record. And I'd add all I have of that in the case. Even if police tactics, bluffing, etc. were used, most know that's allowed.

Why do you think there's no point?

It isn't often we differ in this case but I kind of differ with you there. The only ones that ever wanted it thrown out was the D and then they changed their tune.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Not sure about the height change. I mean he is 5'5" in his latest mugshot so it is not a big difference. People can lose height a little as they age so it's possible he was 5'6" when he was a bit younger.

Well at my highest I was 5.7 and a half and for years when younger I put that down. So I get that even though at a point I probably wasn't any more and only learned that at a doctoer's visit, etc I think I heard though he changed it by two inches, his height... But it's actually interesting as his height as been all over the place even with arrest and mug shots, and controversy.

With no offense to any shorter man, it wouldn't surprise me they had an issue with their height and fudged it but since this is a case where height is argued, it seems it may be more relevant. Not sure, just like you.

It is interesting though he seemed to change it the month after the girls were murdered. I'm wondering if they can show an older fishing license and interested in such where it showed otherwise.

And then again, it may come to nothing and mean nothing.

 

[GrandmaBear]

You can see demeanor, body language, tone, etc. Plus word for word. Minus the parts that didn't get recorded.

I'm going to agree with you on that one. Anything we can see as actually recorded I want to see. We can't see trial, demeanor of anyone, witnesses or Allen, etc. and it bites. And I don't doubt How many bluffed him, pressed him, etc. but that's allowable and I think MOST citizens/jurors/etc. know that. But I want to see Allen. We pretty much NEVER have seen him utter hardly a single word. Hasn't testified. Never will. Haven't seen an interview of him. Nothing. I think they darned well should be played and I'd wonder actually if they weren't as to why. There are enough interviews lost or recorded over and I won't deny that.