LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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With respect, a Judge empowered with running a Fair Trial, who fails to maintain a legally compliant record for a double murder trial such that the accused would lose the option of an appellate review ... and who orders a 6th Amendment violation in favor of a Franks hearing ...

... is the very definition of gross negligence.

And guess what? We don't even have to pretend that that it's not Fran's fault b/c the Clerks did it b/c these are HER written orders to whack-a-mole the docket.
I am pretty sure I've said in this thread recently that I was waiting on the decision and to my knowledge, none of this is yet proven nor decided. I think I also said they may well order her to fix some things, change some things and maybe they will remove her AND the defense, who knows.. As of now, I see a bunch of talking heads talking of all this stuff and the Old D claims of such but I've seen no SCION saying any of it is in error or wrong YET in agreement with the Old D or the talking heads.

There has been so much b.s. thrown ever since the O filing, I'll just wait.

LIke with for one example, the SCION taking this on an emergency basis. Again I think they always rule if a question in a legal process or a disagreement with a judge's order. It is not the same as RA appealing a conviction. Two entirely different things.

And now Gull has an attorney which I think she should. This is far from over.

And they may well clean the slate of all. Who knows. I also won't be surprised if not nearly as much is found wrong as is being said. Could go either way imo. And it may well land somewhere in the middle.

What I do know is the Old D got their wish in some respects. All the talk now is against the judge and somehow people seem to have forgotten what happened here at the hands of the defense. They have been turning things since the O think right through til now.

Honestly? I hope they also lose everything they have in lawsuits from the people they named and SAID OUTRIGHT murdered the girls. The impact of that and how public it has went can't even be measured imo as to what it has caused them. Nothing in that entire document put these men together or placed any of them there in any way with any evidence.

I think these lawyers are the lowest of the low and no better than poo stuck to the bottom of a shoe. Sorry for any who think highly of either because one thing is known and that they FILED that as RA's defense attorneys, it doesn't matter who drafted it or anything else, it was submitted from them on RA's behalf. Perhaps there was a time they were ethical and professional, either of them, but I'd say they've lost it and lost their way and I for one find it hard to believe they ever were but then I know nohting of them prior to this case, nor do I care or think it makes a bit of difference.

Gull is one thing but she is not the only problem here and what happened and the original problem was DUE TO BALDWIN and THIS UNLICENSED ATTORNEY AND THEIR CHAIN. I jest when talking of him locking the office and passwording computers. This man was working for him/with him and I'd bet on it. It is a cockamanie (spelling?) that this was just some friend and former employee that sometimes had access to his office. BULL. And even with that story, WHY and FOR WHAT??? Seriously.

I find our world a bit scary in how fast this has all turned away from them much at all. I felt the same with the O thing, how quick people embraced it or enough did...

So MS had these guys on their show did they...? Haven't been able to watch? How long ago are we talking? The thief and also Baldwin at another time, do i have that right? Hmmm.
 
I was thinking expert witnesses (the professors and the investigators) dealing w/ the Rune theory.

Also yes, another part of the Franks memo dealt w/ search warrant evidence suppression. :thumbsup:
I don't think that is another part of it, it is what a Frank's memo is for and they just stuck in all this stuff to show cause for it, show the prosecutor "lied" as he never mentioned the Os, followed up on it, etc., etc., etc. and tons of other things to get a hearing on the motion to quash the warrant, null it or whatever the legal mumbo jumbo is. Don't know why they have to call this a memo either as opposed to a motion but then that's the legal sh*t and the system for ya.

I'm sure they had though plenty of reason for going all out with the O stuff, pictures, it sounds like every attachment and page known to mankind in the case, etc. is in it on top of their ridiculously long worded "memo".

No, I didn't write it. Mine are longer lol. Not.
 
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I am pretty sure I've said in this thread recently that I was waiting on the decision and to my knowledge, none of this is yet proven nor decided. I think I also said they may well order her to fix some things, change some things and maybe they will remove her AND the defense, who knows.. As of now, I see a bunch of talking heads talking of all this stuff and the Old D claims of such but I've seen no SCION saying any of it is in error or wrong YET in agreement with the Old D or the talking heads.

There has been so much b.s. thrown ever since the O filing, I'll just wait.

LIke with for one example, the SCION taking this on an emergency basis. Again I think they always rule if a question in a legal process or a disagreement with a judge's order. It is not the same as RA appealing a conviction. Two entirely different things.

And now Gull has an attorney which I think she should. This is far from over.

And they may well clean the slate of all. Who knows. I also won't be surprised if not nearly as much is found wrong as is being said. Could go either way imo. And it may well land somewhere in the middle.

What I do know is the Old D got their wish in some respects. All the talk now is against the judge and somehow people seem to have forgotten what happened here at the hands of the defense. They have been turning things since the O think right through til now.

Honestly? I hope they also lose everything they have in lawsuits from the people they named and SAID OUTRIGHT murdered the girls. The impact of that and how public it has went can't even be measured imo as to what it has caused them. Nothing in that entire document put these men together or placed any of them there in any way with any evidence.

I think these lawyers are the lowest of the low and no better than poo stuck to the bottom of a shoe. Sorry for any who think highly of either because one thing is known and that they FILED that as RA's defense attorneys, it doesn't matter who drafted it or anything else, it was submitted from them on RA's behalf. Perhaps there was a time they were ethical and professional, either of them, but I'd say they've lost it and lost their way and I for one find it hard to believe they ever were but then I know nohting of them prior to this case, nor do I care or think it makes a bit of difference.

Gull is one thing but she is not the only problem here and what happened and the original problem was DUE TO BALDWIN and THIS UNLICENSED ATTORNEY AND THEIR CHAIN. I jest when talking of him locking the office and passwording computers. This man was working for him/with him and I'd bet on it. It is a cockamanie (spelling?) that this was just some friend and former employee that sometimes had access to his office. BULL. And even with that story, WHY and FOR WHAT??? Seriously.

I find our world a bit scary in how fast this has all turned away from them much at all. I felt the same with the O thing, how quick people embraced it or enough did...

So MS had these guys on their show did they...? Haven't been able to watch? How long ago are we talking? The thief and also Baldwin at another time, do i have that right? Hmmm.

The Delphi Murders: A March 2023 Interview with Alleged Delphi Leaker Mitch Westerman :loveu:

⚖️ This is old news but ... the White Nationalists of Delphi won't be able to sue trial attorneys as they enjoy immunities or protections when making statements in the course of representing their clients. This includes statements made in legal briefs and during court proceedings. This immunity is designed to encourage open and zealous advocacy for their clients. The attorneys are smart enough to keep their speculation under court record and not in the media.

Tell us how you really feel about RA's 6th Amendment right to the counsel of his choice? :drumroll:
 
Old D wants to pull in the RUNEs theory to the case. Was the CS staged to "look as if" it was ritualistic in order to throw off investigators and if so, who woul do such a thing (and RA would not).

To do that - they're gonna need to pull in the testimony from that line of the investigation.
These pre-hearings are to establish the parameters of testimony, evidence, and experts that will be allowed at trial. And when they have that figured out, all these witnesses - expert and otherwise - need to be deposed (by both D and P) prior to trial.

(Phew, there is so much work to do.)

Anyway, pulling in the Runes angle of testimony and theory ... that was the whole reason for the memo.

The D's reason for the memo was not to "FREE THE CS PICTURES" !!! It was to bring forth the Runes (messaging sticks) theory into the case.

Also, I agree with all who objects to the D's release of other POI's names. REDACT REDACT REDACT. I'd like to see Defense defend that unnecessary doxing.
Gull didn't place redaction rules/limits on the record after that memo; I'd like to know why not.
The search team who found them would be able to testify about the sticks. Also those named in the Frank's memo would be called to testify. They are being accused of the crime in that document.
 
Maybe they leaked them for attention. We already know MW has been on MS, Baldwin more than once. Maybe they thought "ohhhhh we can get on a podcast or YT."

If I tell them the truth, I will be okay. Suppose he didn't realize they were sealed? If he honestly had no idea MW stole them, he just needed to be honest. Maybe his buddy Mitch would have not been happy, but tell the truth.

All guesses.
Why was MW even on MS back in March anyway, unless he was an employee of the defence?
 
The Delphi Murders: A March 2023 Interview with Alleged Delphi Leaker Mitch Westerman :loveu:

⚖️ This is old news but ... the White Nationalists of Delphi won't be able to sue trial attorneys as they enjoy immunities or protections when making statements in the course of representing their clients. This includes statements made in legal briefs and during court proceedings. This immunity is designed to encourage open and zealous advocacy for their clients. The attorneys are smart enough to keep their speculation under court record and not in the media.

Tell us how you really feel about RA's 6th Amendment right to the counsel of his choice? :drumroll:
If the Frank's motion gets thrown out, would those mentioned then be able to sue?
 
I am pretty sure I've said in this thread recently that I was waiting on the decision and to my knowledge, none of this is yet proven nor decided. I think I also said they may well order her to fix some things, change some things and maybe they will remove her AND the defense, who knows.. As of now, I see a bunch of talking heads talking of all this stuff and the Old D claims of such but I've seen no SCION saying any of it is in error or wrong YET in agreement with the Old D or the talking heads.

There has been so much b.s. thrown ever since the O filing, I'll just wait.

LIke with for one example, the SCION taking this on an emergency basis. Again I think they always rule if a question in a legal process or a disagreement with a judge's order. It is not the same as RA appealing a conviction. Two entirely different things.

And now Gull has an attorney which I think she should. This is far from over.

And they may well clean the slate of all. Who knows. I also won't be surprised if not nearly as much is found wrong as is being said. Could go either way imo. And it may well land somewhere in the middle.

What I do know is the Old D got their wish in some respects. All the talk now is against the judge and somehow people seem to have forgotten what happened here at the hands of the defense. They have been turning things since the O think right through til now.

Honestly? I hope they also lose everything they have in lawsuits from the people they named and SAID OUTRIGHT murdered the girls. The impact of that and how public it has went can't even be measured imo as to what it has caused them. Nothing in that entire document put these men together or placed any of them there in any way with any evidence.

I think these lawyers are the lowest of the low and no better than poo stuck to the bottom of a shoe. Sorry for any who think highly of either because one thing is known and that they FILED that as RA's defense attorneys, it doesn't matter who drafted it or anything else, it was submitted from them on RA's behalf. Perhaps there was a time they were ethical and professional, either of them, but I'd say they've lost it and lost their way and I for one find it hard to believe they ever were but then I know nohting of them prior to this case, nor do I care or think it makes a bit of difference.

Gull is one thing but she is not the only problem here and what happened and the original problem was DUE TO BALDWIN and THIS UNLICENSED ATTORNEY AND THEIR CHAIN. I jest when talking of him locking the office and passwording computers. This man was working for him/with him and I'd bet on it. It is a cockamanie (spelling?) that this was just some friend and former employee that sometimes had access to his office. BULL. And even with that story, WHY and FOR WHAT??? Seriously.

I find our world a bit scary in how fast this has all turned away from them much at all. I felt the same with the O thing, how quick people embraced it or enough did...

So MS had these guys on their show did they...? Haven't been able to watch? How long ago are we talking? The thief and also Baldwin at another time, do i have that right? Hmmm.
Cockamamy - love that word.


MW was on in March. It's a podcast so listen only, so ok for you. 1 hour 21 minutes IIRC. I think they interviewed Baldwin so I'll look for that too.
 
The Delphi Murders: A March 2023 Interview with Alleged Delphi Leaker Mitch Westerman :loveu:

⚖️ This is old news but ... the White Nationalists of Delphi won't be able to sue trial attorneys as they enjoy immunities or protections when making statements in the course of representing their clients. This includes statements made in legal briefs and during court proceedings. This immunity is designed to encourage open and zealous advocacy for their clients. The attorneys are smart enough to keep their speculation under court record and not in the media.

Tell us how you really feel about RA's 6th Amendment right to the counsel of his choice? :drumroll:
Oh how sweet that is if true. And entirely unfair. The stuff in paragraph one of your post. Advocacy for clients is one thing but naming others with no evidence is another. And we all know they knew this WOULD hit the public before it could even be seen but whatever, if it can be done it can and if it cannot, then it cannot.

I am all for constitutional rights but I don't see this that way and I guess that is one thing the SCION I would think will weigh in on no doubt. It is going to depend on what they take as fact, what if anything was done in an improper manner and erroneous, etc. and more. The attorneys withdrew (or one said he was just wanted to do it in writing wasn't it...) when they were UNPAID appointed public defenders. Court appointed. RA cannot PICK his unpaid attorneys. Then Rozzi claimed he did not withdraw and both said they were forced to basically. Gull said they did and barred them, etc. Only after these events or most did they say they were going to represent him pro bono but they'd already been banned/barred AND it was all over a leak, etc. entirely attributable to he defense who had been warned before.

You know all this. We all do.

This IS what the SCION I'd think will be ruling on and sorting out and determining if she had such a right, etc. I know, I know many say she didn't, did it wrong, etc. I'd rather hear it from the higher court than the talking heads and I'd hope they decide in the serious way a higher court should than let public opinion and talking heads influence anything nor the national attention of the case.

RA is choosing attorneys (or thinking he can) that just put his case in jeopardy as well and his unconcern for that is obvious that he is happy for anything that has taken every bit of focus OFF of him AND caused chaos for the judge and the case.

I don't know what the higher court will decide and they well may decide as you think and confirm it all but I don't see at least Baldwin staying on but it's all guesses. I'm not going to feel egg on my face either way as again, I'm just waiting to see how they interpret it all and decide.

I will say I'm not entirely trusting of higher courts necessarily either. There is a whole lot of politics that go on worse than ever these days. But do hope it will be a seriously taken review and ruling.

Imo neither attorney should be on this case. Tell me this do you really think they will ignore that Baldwin can't safeguard his client's case file? At minimum, this is admitted to and again, they'd already had warning. RA is asking for attorneys who are negligent on HIS behalf when he is facing the most serious of all charges, murder. And negligence, as we know, is again just the minimum of what really likely happened here. And that a man committed suicide that ties back to that very negligence?? Let's remember again that they took the pro bono route after they were banned from the case, it is not like RA went and found two new attys of his choosing who he either paid or who agreed to represent him pro bono.

Of course maybe they will if the laws and former decisions and interpretations make it clear this was done in a wrong manner by Gull and that RA is entitled to these pro bono now private attorneys.

Let's also not forget Gull and her attorney have their own response that will be coming and that has yet to be seen.

I am not saying RA doesn't have rights whatsoever and my seeing a lot here to be sorted out and waiting for Gull's response and then the SCION's response means in no way I don't feel his rights matter.

I do feel most others seem to think they are the higher court as they seem to know what the higher court's decision and recommended remedies will be before the Court itself even knows or has seen all sides. But then, those people may very well be right, I don't know. Maybe it will 100 percent go exactly as so many think on ALL issues and they will simply tell Baldwin to try to remember to lock his door but that he's been a really good boy and they are both saints to want to represent RA pro bono and throw in lollipops for them both as opposed to seeing two attorneys who can't safeguard their client's records nor care to but claim they can represent him well and for some OTHER reason are trying the pro bono thing to say on the case and save their heinies.

I am prepared for any outcome, I don't have a horse in the race or skin in the game. I also don't know what is fact and what is law and admit to such and it isn't like there is just one issue here.

As to RA and his rights, I think it is very unfortunate his attorneys created this mess and compromised this case and those are the very attorneys he want and thinks he should have.

It makes me gag that some thing they are doing the pro bono out of the goodness of their heart and super concern for Allen, again so much concern that they can't protect his case info. Let's not forget either that probably everything Allen has ever shared with his attorneys or his family has is in that office as well on top of facts and details of even Allen's day that we have never heard and more. Attorney/client privilege has been compromised. I could go on...
 
Cockamamy - love that word.


MW was on in March. It's a podcast so listen only, so ok for you. 1 hour 21 minutes IIRC. I think they interviewed Baldwin so I'll look for that too.
I debated on the M or N in the word and the Y or IE lol. I was tired and it isn't a word I think i've ever even typed before but I have used it verbally on occasion. I thought it the most fitting descriptor for what I was attempting to point out. I overuse bullsheet and this one fit better anyhow.

Not sure when or if I will get to that podcast. Will try. I do prefer seeing the person when trying to come up with an opinion of them and what they are about, etc.
 
You know, Baldwin is not a one man office. There are two other attorney names in the firm name and that generally means they are partners. Associates do not go into the firm name any firm I ever worked in, that's how it goes. This would beg one to wonder how they feel about unlocked offices and unsecured computers and compromised case files and whether they have been questioned as to the truth of Baldwin's claims and if not, why not and that goes for all office staff as well. Do they really want to be associated with such and known for lack of security and confidentiality and tied to this man? Or are they of the same ilk?

Makes me think of Murdaugh. They were just fine being tied with the man right up to when they had to save their own reputations and jump from the sinking ship. It cost them dearly. Might be wisest for all staff to find new jobs and the other attorneys to jump ship now before it rocks further, capsizes and sinks to bottom.
 
You know, Baldwin is not a one man office. There are two other attorney names in the firm name and that generally means they are partners. Associates do not go into the firm name any firm I ever worked in, that's how it goes. This would beg one to wonder how they feel about unlocked offices and unsecured computers and compromised case files and whether they have been questioned as to the truth of Baldwin's claims and if not, why not and that goes for all office staff as well. Do they really want to be associated with such and known for lack of security and confidentiality and tied to this man? Or are they of the same ilk?

Makes me think of Murdaugh. They were just fine being tied with the man right up to when they had to save their own reputations and jump from the sinking ship. It cost them dearly. Might be wisest for all staff to find new jobs and the other attorneys to jump ship now before it rocks further, capsizes and sinks to bottom.
I am pretty sure it was in an unlocked conference room but I don't remember where I saw or read or heard that.
 

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