LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I need to decompress from listening to this, so be warned, it’s intense. The Murder Sheet podcast had a couple of episodes in which they read the contents of a leaked interview transcript between KK and two detectives, back in 2020.

The detectives are confronting him with all sorts of data they extracted from his phones, including graphic chat contents and a disturbing litany of search terms. Delphi is mostly discussed in Part 2 of the episode, and they really hit him with all kinds of things including an allegation that he was in communication with Libby the day of the murders.

I don’t know how much of it was deception by the detectives but some of it is just shocking. Again, it’s disturbing at times, so use headphones if you really want to listen and there’s other people around.


I just listened to episode #2 & I'm confused. Is the police interviewer suggesting KK was covering tor TK &/or friend 1?
 
I just listened to episode #2 & I'm confused. Is the police interviewer suggesting KK was covering tor TK &/or friend 1?
It sure sounds like it. But who knows what they really intend to do. Maybe they are just trying to catch him in another lie. He seems to lie continuously and contradict himself a bunch.

I mean, who gives out their phone passcodes like he claims he does? I’m not sure I believe the core premise of what he’s saying there.
 
It sure sounds like it. But who knows what they really intend to do. Maybe they are just trying to catch him in another lie. He seems to lie continuously and contradict himself a bunch.

I mean, who gives out their phone passcodes like he claims he does? I’m not sure I believe the core premise of what he’s saying there.
He's definitely not convincing anyone that he's innocent & lies in circles however I'm not sure that he killed the girls. If they took dna from him & le has dna then there would be murder charges, correct?
 
He's definitely not convincing anyone that he's innocent & lies in circles however I'm not sure that he killed the girls. If they took dna from him & le has dna then there would be murder charges, correct?
Maybe? All I know from the official media interviews and press conferences is that they are one tip away from solving the murders, for the last several years. Maybe changing the description on the poster will help get that tip.

Taking a step back, this KK stuff is alarming but isn’t it technically all circumstantial? At least the stuff that’s been leaked - it does seem unlikely that it’s just a coincidence but apparently there’s a ton of offenders out there, so there’s a chance it’s unrelated.
 
Wasn't it Tobey Lizenby that mentioned very early on in this case that social media played a role in this & for parents to monitor their childrens activity closely?

IMO, I believe the person who murdered these girls knew the area & had prior knowledge they would be there. I hope LE applied for & used a geofence warrant right after this happened to secure all cellular activity from that park.
 
Wasn't it Tobey Lizenby that mentioned very early on in this case that social media played a role in this & for parents to monitor their childrens activity closely?
I don’t remember if it was Tobe or if it was Doug Carter but someone did say to keep a close eye on the kids. This was when they were saying they didn’t believe there was a social media angle, though.

I don’t know that we’ll ever piece together what’s going on based on LE’s public statements because it’s all so vague and cryptic. Plus there are so many rumors out there repeated as fact, that it takes a decent effort to just reason through anything.
 
I don’t remember if it was Tobe or if it was Doug Carter but someone did say to keep a close eye on the kids. This was when they were saying they didn’t believe there was a social media angle, though.

I don’t know that we’ll ever piece together what’s going on based on LE’s public statements because it’s all so vague and cryptic. Plus there are so many rumors out there repeated as fact, that it takes a decent effort to just reason through anything.
They totally ruled out the phone, computer or SM angle pretty quickly or at least that is how they played it to us Joe Public. It may have been and is a strategy but now here we are years later with a guy with a fake profile.

I never entirely bought it or at least thought the cops were too quick to rule it out and I'm not the only one by far, we all know this case has the interest of tons and tons of people. There was someone on the JT site that was really on the Snapchat thing and understood Snapchat and time stamps and such very well... There was a lot imo here that hinted towards SM or online stuff... Libby's phone had allegedly been wiped just prior or she had problems... A reset or she had grandma's phone or something as hers had bugs/problems, etc. The girls' ages... Their desire to go here... The Snapchat photo. Libby's presence of mind to record or catch this probably when realizing they had met someone they shouldn't have... I don't know sh*t any more than any of us but I think even the two of them going was the thought they were safe as there were TWO... The buddy system (old school).... We know allegedly Abby's mom never knew she did FB and it was forbidden but she was on it or had been... The girls were up most of the night before... I'm sorry but every kid knows their way around parents, parental controls and the internet, etc. more than parents...

Yes, they may have been up doing arts and crafts all night or whatever was said but I wouldn't count on it... And how many just take the word of the child or child and friend... And give them privacy in their room, friend(s) over, that "tween" or "teen" age... And this was grandma, not mom... That is not a knock, we all do it or have done it....

I think and thought too that we may have something here where one of the girls sent a photo the person asked for and then as in some other cases he said meet me or threatened to tell their parents or show their friends or the world if not.... They were on Kelsey more than once for a ride and wanting to go there... Or needing to maybe...? Being harassed? Or baited...?

So anyhow LE downplayed or said no SM thing in this case and now here we are with a guy with a fake profile they knew of...

I suspect they felt this was SM but wanted to give absolutely no hint to an offender that they even thought that... Or to the public for the same reason...

I felt when they downplayed it and dismissed it so early on that they maybe didn't look hard enough at it and dismissed too easily and thought is it just a local small department kind of thing but they shouldn't be dismissing this...

These girls were the age when you are leaving childhood and wanting to be cool and join the older kids OR were scared of it but feeling that pressure, testing and wanting or thinking you should be doing this or that or need to know how to do this or that and IF this model's profile showed them some specific attention oh boy... They are beautiful girls but they are children and all of us know if someone adult, famous or a model did that or reacted or paid attention to girls that age that something is up... I'm not saying this guy did it but I am saying if he did, this is what likely happened...

I haven't watched the leaked thing yet and didn't realize there was recent activity here until just a bit ago... Just reacting to the posts first...
 
I just want the guy who did this caught. Every time this thread has new information it just upsets me that the murderer is still out there. @Steve I think you're right about DNA. Unless the perp left no DNA at the site there'd be a match. I find it hard to believe no DNA was left at the site.
I think I've said it before here but I think DNA is questionable in this case. They have danced around the question a lot... Sometimes I think they want a perp to think they have it and then one time it was this vague thing from one of the family members like oh it is like touch DNA as if they don't have it and that could also be to make a perp think they don't and get cocky and think he is safe...

In the recent year or two it has been asked why not try to the genetic thing and those answers have been less than satisfying...

I'd like to think they have it but I'm not convinced and if they do, is it good enough to be unquestionable as evidence...? This was outdoors and the search continued the night before after the cops called it off... Nothing was cordoned off prior to finding them...

To me it is one of two things... They know who it is and have but they don't have enough evidence or good enough DNA and chain of evidence that wouldn't be argued or torn apart by a defense attorney and/or they have none or nothing that is of any quality...

I don't know that it isn't this guy or that they haven't charged him because his DNA didn't match, I"m thinking they don't have anything that they can compare... Or they have to get him to state something to lock him in about never meeting the girls before, then or ever... If there was DNA at all and it matched, I find it hard to believe they would be triumphantly trumpeting that news by now...

And what is this thing about not wanting height, etc. on the information now? That's all well and great but it's not like it is fresh any longer... It is as if they are hoping or ignored tips back when if someone submitted a tip if the guy didn't fit that their idea of look or height at that time and threw the tip out and now they hope on hearing this that person(s) will recontact them... So now the first "sketch" is to be entirely forgotten?

I haven't watched the thing yet though...
 
I think I've said it before here but I think DNA is questionable in this case. They have danced around the question a lot... Sometimes I think they want a perp to think they have it and then one time it was this vague thing from one of the family members like oh it is like touch DNA as if they don't have it and that could also be to make a perp think they don't and get cocky and think he is safe...

In the recent year or two it has been asked why not try to the genetic thing and those answers have been less than satisfying...

I'd like to think they have it but I'm not convinced and if they do, is it good enough to be unquestionable as evidence...? This was outdoors and the search continued the night before after the cops called it off... Nothing was cordoned off prior to finding them...

To me it is one of two things... They know who it is and have but they don't have enough evidence or good enough DNA and chain of evidence that wouldn't be argued or torn apart by a defense attorney and/or they have none or nothing that is of any quality...

I don't know that it isn't this guy or that they haven't charged him because his DNA didn't match, I"m thinking they don't have anything that they can compare... Or they have to get him to state something to lock him in about never meeting the girls before, then or ever... If there was DNA at all and it matched, I find it hard to believe they would be triumphantly trumpeting that news by now...

And what is this thing about not wanting height, etc. on the information now? That's all well and great but it's not like it is fresh any longer... It is as if they are hoping or ignored tips back when if someone submitted a tip if the guy didn't fit that their idea of look or height at that time and threw the tip out and now they hope on hearing this that person(s) will recontact them... So now the first "sketch" is to be entirely forgotten?

I haven't watched the thing yet though...

I think they heavily suspect someone, but just can't prove it. I hope they don't have blinders on and aren't investigating other avenues. DNA seems iffy to me. If they can get a partial match that may not hold up in court they might be able to get a search warrant with it.
 
I think they heavily suspect someone, but just can't prove it. I hope they don't have blinders on and aren't investigating other avenues. DNA seems iffy to me. If they can get a partial match that may not hold up in court they might be able to get a search warrant with it.
Just MOO, but I think they also suspect /know someone did it and have DNA, but the person has a fake alibi provided by Person Two. LE almost, but not quite, can break that fake alibi . So they are working on Person Two by letting Person Two know that they know the alibi is fake. That may explain the " Who knows-the perpetrator might be in this very room right now" comment that LE stated during one of the press conferences. The perp may not have been in the room, but Person Two was, and LE knew they are involved.

Option 2: They have the perp's DNA and lots of it, but it currently does not match anyone in a database.

LE are obviously going to have Abby's Libby's , and family members DNA to exclude all of them. Whatever is left is the perpetrator or perpetrators. To figure out who it is, first figure out who it isn't.

Delphi is not exactly a hot-spot tourist destination, that thousands of strangers flock to, especially in the middle of February of an Indiana winter. The warm weather that day was a fluke.
 
They totally ruled out the phone, computer or SM angle pretty quickly or at least that is how they played it to us Joe Public. It may have been and is a strategy but now here we are years later with a guy with a fake profile.

I never entirely bought it or at least thought the cops were too quick to rule it out and I'm not the only one by far, we all know this case has the interest of tons and tons of people. There was someone on the JT site that was really on the Snapchat thing and understood Snapchat and time stamps and such very well... There was a lot imo here that hinted towards SM or online stuff... Libby's phone had allegedly been wiped just prior or she had problems... A reset or she had grandma's phone or something as hers had bugs/problems, etc. The girls' ages... Their desire to go here... The Snapchat photo. Libby's presence of mind to record or catch this probably when realizing they had met someone they shouldn't have... I don't know sh*t any more than any of us but I think even the two of them going was the thought they were safe as there were TWO... The buddy system (old school).... We know allegedly Abby's mom never knew she did FB and it was forbidden but she was on it or had been... The girls were up most of the night before... I'm sorry but every kid knows their way around parents, parental controls and the internet, etc. more than parents...

Yes, they may have been up doing arts and crafts all night or whatever was said but I wouldn't count on it... And how many just take the word of the child or child and friend... And give them privacy in their room, friend(s) over, that "tween" or "teen" age... And this was grandma, not mom... That is not a knock, we all do it or have done it....

I think and thought too that we may have something here where one of the girls sent a photo the person asked for and then as in some other cases he said meet me or threatened to tell their parents or show their friends or the world if not.... They were on Kelsey more than once for a ride and wanting to go there... Or needing to maybe...? Being harassed? Or baited...?

So anyhow LE downplayed or said no SM thing in this case and now here we are with a guy with a fake profile they knew of...

I suspect they felt this was SM but wanted to give absolutely no hint to an offender that they even thought that... Or to the public for the same reason...

I felt when they downplayed it and dismissed it so early on that they maybe didn't look hard enough at it and dismissed too easily and thought is it just a local small department kind of thing but they shouldn't be dismissing this...

These girls were the age when you are leaving childhood and wanting to be cool and join the older kids OR were scared of it but feeling that pressure, testing and wanting or thinking you should be doing this or that or need to know how to do this or that and IF this model's profile showed them some specific attention oh boy... They are beautiful girls but they are children and all of us know if someone adult, famous or a model did that or reacted or paid attention to girls that age that something is up... I'm not saying this guy did it but I am saying if he did, this is what likely happened...

I haven't watched the leaked thing yet and didn't realize there was recent activity here until just a bit ago... Just reacting to the posts first...
Her recording this makes me definitely think that possibly they were there to meet somebody at that spot and it's this guy instead of who they thought they were meeting.
 
I think they heavily suspect someone, but just can't prove it. I hope they don't have blinders on and aren't investigating other avenues. DNA seems iffy to me. If they can get a partial match that may not hold up in court they might be able to get a search warrant with it.
or it was mishandled and this is their way of not having to admit it publicly

or it came back as somebody connected and they need to really be sure and need more evidence before proceeding

or ...
 
I think they heavily suspect someone, but just can't prove it. I hope they don't have blinders on and aren't investigating other avenues. DNA seems iffy to me. If they can get a partial match that may not hold up in court they might be able to get a search warrant with it.
If a search warrant resulted in anything after this amount of time.

They have been quick to rule out others or so they say they have in many cases when people have thought it might be someone else through these years. That could be because they have DNA or it could be because they know who did it...
 
Just MOO, but I think they also suspect /know someone did it and have DNA, but the person has a fake alibi provided by Person Two. LE almost, but not quite, can break that fake alibi . So they are working on Person Two by letting Person Two know that they know the alibi is fake. That may explain the " Who knows-the perpetrator might be in this very room right now" comment that LE stated during one of the press conferences. The perp may not have been in the room, but Person Two was, and LE knew they are involved.

Option 2: They have the perp's DNA and lots of it, but it currently does not match anyone in a database.

LE are obviously going to have Abby's Libby's , and family members DNA to exclude all of them. Whatever is left is the perpetrator or perpetrators. To figure out who it is, first figure out who it isn't.

Delphi is not exactly a hot-spot tourist destination, that thousands of strangers flock to, especially in the middle of February of an Indiana winter. The warm weather that day was a fluke.
Yeah, that stuff did stand out, they have always hinted at something that leads one to believing a 2nd person was involved or is providing an alibi, etc. Two sketches, numerous remarks hinting at that, etc. It is hard to say because LE tends to do that, say someone out there knows something, you shouldn't cover for this person or if you are, etc., etc., do the right thing and so on. In this case though, it seems more than just the standard talk like that, it as if there are two...

I'm not so sure they have perpetrator's DNA or any quality of it. And then it would have to be DNA from the girls' bodies or on a piece of clothing they were wearing to have GOOD evidence. They could find a cigarette butt on the ground 10 yards away and while it may be the perp's, it doesn't mean he was there that day or even when these girls were. They could find a piece of his clothing and same thing unless it can all be tied together... I think outdoor scenes are quite challenging...

We are though given hints that Libby put up quite a fight so maybe there was some under her fingernails... IF that's true. We don't even really know how much physical contact he had with them although there are some rumors, etc. re that. It sounds like he likely posed the bodies but with gloves on, etc. (if so), again, would he leave DNA...

I guess it is possible the perp isn't in the database as IN didn't even have the DNA law they do now but IF they have DNA they should know if it is KK by now.

I still have to watch the video above but what stays with me is when someone said Kelsey has not come out and said it isn't this guy and she has dismissed many of the others...

I think it is very likely they do feel they need just one more link or an alibi broken or something but I also think they may have less than we think and they rolled the dice hoping to get KK to say something by making him think they knew something that they don't...

One other thought is familial DNA. I don't know enough about it but is it possible any DNA they have is not decent enough to exclude or include to a high percentage so they may have a direction but can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt it is father and not son for instance? Or could they always tell?

Finally, maybe they have so little DNA they don't want to risk testing it because if DNA analysis keeps getting better and better as it does over the years, they want some left for that one shot to get an accurate result?

Again, I haven't watched that video yet.
 
Her recording this makes me definitely think that possibly they were there to meet somebody at that spot and it's this guy instead of who they thought they were meeting.
Me too. I think it all fits pretty well the SM angle. Lots to point to it.

They may even have planned to prove this "hot model" rendezvoused with them. Or they may have had an instinct or known at least the chance he was not who he said and were playing it safe but ignored the danger and felt they could take care of themselves... It is constantly said how Libby was that way and wouldn't back down, etc. And teens often think they are invincible.

I also think there is the slight possibility when the pic of them live went onto Snapchat that someone in the area/vicinity knew they were there and... I think it more likely it was arranged though...
 
or it was mishandled and this is their way of not having to admit it publicly

or it came back as somebody connected and they need to really be sure and need more evidence before proceeding

or ...
The mishandling is a distinct possibility. I sure hope it isn't the case. We know though they stopped the search that night and yet others stayed to search. That alone didn't help things... Probably no noting of vehicles present or people and who came or left when or were there or parked where, etc.

Of course they didn't know they didn't just have two lost or wayward teens... I get that.

But once the scene was discovered and Libby's phone and all, I sure hope they secured it all and processed it well...
 
Yeah, that stuff did stand out, they have always hinted at something that leads one to believing a 2nd person was involved or is providing an alibi, etc. Two sketches, numerous remarks hinting at that, etc. It is hard to say because LE tends to do that, say someone out there knows something, you shouldn't cover for this person or if you are, etc., etc., do the right thing and so on. In this case though, it seems more than just the standard talk like that, it as if there are two...

I'm not so sure they have perpetrator's DNA or any quality of it. And then it would have to be DNA from the girls' bodies or on a piece of clothing they were wearing to have GOOD evidence. They could find a cigarette butt on the ground 10 yards away and while it may be the perp's, it doesn't mean he was there that day or even when these girls were. They could find a piece of his clothing and same thing unless it can all be tied together... I think outdoor scenes are quite challenging...

We are though given hints that Libby put up quite a fight so maybe there was some under her fingernails... IF that's true. We don't even really know how much physical contact he had with them although there are some rumors, etc. re that. It sounds like he likely posed the bodies but with gloves on, etc. (if so), again, would he leave DNA...

I guess it is possible the perp isn't in the database as IN didn't even have the DNA law they do now but IF they have DNA they should know if it is KK by now.

I still have to watch the video above but what stays with me is when someone said Kelsey has not come out and said it isn't this guy and she has dismissed many of the others...

I think it is very likely they do feel they need just one more link or an alibi broken or something but I also think they may have less than we think and they rolled the dice hoping to get KK to say something by making him think they knew something that they don't...

One other thought is familial DNA. I don't know enough about it but is it possible any DNA they have is not decent enough to exclude or include to a high percentage so they may have a direction but can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt it is father and not son for instance? Or could they always tell?

Finally, maybe they have so little DNA they don't want to risk testing it because if DNA analysis keeps getting better and better as it does over the years, they want some left for that one shot to get an accurate result?

Again, I haven't watched that video yet.

The now current Indiana DNA laws were speed rushed through the Indiana Legislature and to the governor for his signature because of what happened in Delphi. By speed rush, I mean it took about a year from introduction of the bill to it becoming law, which is the speed of lightning where getting anything passed into law is concerned.
 
The now current Indiana DNA laws were speed rushed through the Indiana Legislature and to the governor for his signature because of what happened in Delphi. By speed rush, I mean it took about a year from introduction of the bill to it becoming law, which is the speed of lightning where getting anything passed into law is concerned.

Does that apply to cases that happened before the law was enacted?
 
If they have matching DNA the only way an alibi would work is if there is a damn good reason for how his DNA got there. He can't say I've never seen them before and have his DNA on them.

The newer picture looks, to me, like the picture of the person they contacted online. The Police probably didn't find it until they were able to hack the phone. However, it could just be the picture from some guy's Facebook account that the perp used to make them think it's what he looked like. I wonder if they've run the picture through an image search from Google or Bing.

If they have DNA I wonder if they can identify as coming from a man. It's not out of the question that it was a woman who did it.

Also, if they have enough DNA they can get a picture of what he looks like:

 

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