LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'll take pictures today on the sly when I'm out and about. Kidding. There's a guy who shops in one of the stores I work in that is a ringer for RA. I have to force myself to stop staring.

I don't think RA is innocent at all. I just think imaginations allow us to get carried away. Remember when the public was asked to stop the side by side comparisons? There was a reason for that.

It is almost a surprise to hear you say you don't think him innocent. I don't mean that in ia a doubting way or anything and I know you are concerned about his constitutional rights and such and other things too like doubting Rozzi was involved in anything and so forth.

Yeah the comparisons to Bridge Guy got nuts through these years BUT for most case followers it was because they want justice and this perp/s found so bad. The public being asked to stop doing side by side comparisons? Well then you had LE coming out with a second entirely different sketch and saying odd things like it is the same guy, well it is but it isn't but ya know...

I know we all want justice for the girls. I know we all differ. I don't want his rights ignored but I also don't want things being based on a lot of unproven bluster and b.s.

And I never had a comparison that I was 100 percent on through these years even before here on this site. But RA's appearance the other day?? Not 100 percent but it was instant and not even what I was looking for or expecting him to look like and the voice thing? THAT ONE I am as close to 100 percent as I have ever been on any case in any year at any time. And I never go to almost 100.

Of course that does not negate his rights. But that all needs to be determined and so does what is true and false with it. I do not believe much of anything coming from him or his defense. Not just because I seem anti defense but for very real reasons.

What do you think overall of your IN? And the b.s. and politics and this case and how about Megan Boswell, what a joke they haven't tried her yet. Don't get me wrong, I knock my own and Mel knocks her MN plenty so I am just asking. And about the politics and what is your opinion of the SCION and the State police/Doug Carter, etc.? I forget what Indianan's is called, the ISD? Or ISP? Heard it many times but every state is different as to the other initials other than the state initial.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think it probably went this way:

One of the others: "OK, they're gonna nail you for this. YOU were the only one there, RIGHT? Make sure that's all you say. OK, Richard!!!

At what point of his year of incarceration did that happen...?

 

[Olenna]

Now you broke it.

Some things just need to be shown the floor.

 

[RoundPeg]

It is almost a surprise to hear you say you don't think him innocent. I don't mean that in ia a doubting way or anything and I know you are concerned about his constitutional rights and such and other things too like doubting Rozzi was involved in anything and so forth.

Yeah the comparisons to Bridge Guy got nuts through these years BUT for most case followers it was because they want justice and this perp/s found so bad. The public being asked to stop doing side by side comparisons? Well then you had LE coming out with a second entirely different sketch and saying odd things like it is the same guy, well it is but it isn't but ya know...

I know we all want justice for the girls. I know we all differ. I don't want his rights ignored but I also don't want things being based on a lot of unproven bluster and b.s.

And I never had a comparison that I was 100 percent on through these years even before here on this site. But RA's appearance the other day?? Not 100 percent but it was instant and not even what I was looking for or expecting him to look like and the voice thing? THAT ONE I am as close to 100 percent as I have ever been on any case in any year at any time. And I never go to almost 100.

Of course that does not negate his rights. But that all needs to be determined and so does what is true and false with it. I do not believe much of anything coming from him or his defense. Not just because I seem anti defense but for very real reasons.

What do you think overall of your IN? And the b.s. and politics and this case and how about Megan Boswell, what a joke they haven't tried her yet. Don't get me wrong, I knock my own and Mel knocks her MN plenty so I am just asking. And about the politics and what is your opinion of the SCION and the State police/Doug Carter, etc.? I forget what Indianan's is called, the ISD? Or ISP? Heard it many times but every state is different as to the other initials other than the state initial.

My opinions.

1. I haven't read up on Megan Boswell lately. She's in TN.
2. I have all the respect in the world for the Indiana State Police (ISP). Not related to this case, but I remember during the riots of 2020 the rioters in Louisville got the bright idea to cross a bridge and bring it to Indiana. ISP got wind of their plans and a very long line of them headed to the bridge. The rioters turned around and went back.
3. Doug Carter was emotionally involved. Even then, its a bit hard for me to hold that against him. He's not the one that lost the tip on RA.
4. The Supreme Court, I really don't know enough to offer up an opinion. I know what I understand to be the law and trial procedure and what I believe to be the right things to do in this case.

I place the blame for the current fiasco squarely on the judicial system.

I've stated more than once, I believe RA is the guy. I don't think for one minute that Ron Logan, Kevin Kline, or anyone else is involved in this. He needs to be tried, fair and square, and locked up.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

From six hours ago:

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I am assuming they got the Hoosier store video straightaway. Because stores don't usually keep video for very long. If you remember there was something re KK and video not being able to be retrieved from a gas station before it was deleted.

No it is his gun they matched the ejection indentation to, I believe.

Only one guy was on the trail at the time seen by the witnesses, the 3 juveniles saw him at Freedom bridge, the woman saw him about 50 feet on the monon bridge and she then turned and retraced her steps passing Libby and Abbey about halfway between the Monon bridge and the parking opposite Mears. This can only be RA because of the exact timing of the witnesses sightings and the actual video of him caught on Libby's phone at 2.13 pm on the bridge as well as he himself putting him there at the same time. No other man was seen in that timeframe at all.

The same indentation is made by all of the same exact make and model of gun, IIRC.

Per your link you posted...

"Investigators said security footage captured Allen’s Ford Focus in the area on February 13, 2017, at around 1:27 p.m., near the CPS building."

It seems YOU are the one ignoring that problem.

A purple car was seen there, not a black car. Why are you ignoring the fact he didn't even own a white car at the time?

 

[GrandmaBear]

There really is nothing around there is there?. The video gives you a much better perspective.

It definitely gives perspective of all and the area in a way others haven't that walked the bridge, etc. Those kind of videos show worthwhile perspective as he and the girls walked it and more but you can't see he wider perspective even if the walk to the crime site.

@Tresir said;
"BTW MW stole the photos in August but RF did not shoot himself
until 11th Oct, after the LE visit."

Yeah, about that, so I figure what happened there.. the guy didn't
commit suicide in concern at having leaked a bunch of photos...
I figure the LE that talked to him probably went heavy along the lines
of, guess what, you're disseminating child porn thing, ->sex offender listing,
->many many years in prison upcoming for him, for that. Cause think
about it - pictures of semi-naked/naked children? nothing in the laws that
say they have to be alive, so yeah, the LE probably slanted it as child
porn - so the suicide is still 'what, really?', but now with that angle, at
least it doesn't seem so impossible that he might do it.

Interesting thought and it makes sense but if that's the case why was MW not as worried or in as hot of water as he and Baldwin were the "porn" source and MW also passed such on/distributed?

 

[GrandmaBear]

I am not sure it was the pics of the girls. I think the tree was one and perhaps the clothes in the creek. Also two months is a long time between the leak and the suicide and none of us have seen pics except those AFAIK. So the leak of the bodies didn't seem to happen.

I don't know where you came to the conclusion that the leaked photos are only the ones of the tree etc. I have heard a YTer describe that Abby looked peaceful and Libby not so much with eyes open just for starters. And he claimed he did not receive he did not think all of the photos. The tree drawing and stick drawings were also floating around long before this reported dissemination of what I think are other photos/additional photos.

 

[GrandmaBear]

@Cousin Dupree
The original video on YT states it was taken 14 FEB 17 (2/14/17).
There's too much tree cover ( and perhaps they blur it also, I
can't remember) but you can orient yourself by watching for
the cemetery, the crime scene is basically found between the
cemetery and the creek.

The bullet is nonsense science. The timeline allows RA to be on
his way without encountering the murdered girls. The PCA is known
to contain false information, as example, witness DID NOT say
"muddy and bloody".

The bullet is not nonsense.

The PCA also cites the witness as saying he looked as if he was in a fight which I'd take to mean bloody and on top of that again this came from the defense and has never been hashed out in a hearing. Does anyone have a recording of the witness? And when did the prosecution ever share everything she said...? Or everything that anyone said from Allen to the the girls at the bridge? Anyone have the recordings?

People are assuming things as fact that simply aren't at this point.

 

[Tresir]

The same indentation is made by all of the same exact make and model of gun, IIRC.



A purple car was seen there, not a black car. Why are you ignoring the fact he didn't even own a white car at the time?

The white car was seen at 1.49 pm. He was already on the trails by then. This was the car that dropped off the girls at 1.49 pm. RA had access to 2 cars. Neither are white. He admitted he was on the trails 1.30 to 3.30 PM. So how could he be driving a white car at 1.49pm?

From the PCA:

"Video from the Hoosier Harvestore shows at 1:49pm white car matching BLANK's vehicle traveling away from the entrance across from the Mears farm. WITNESS advised she finished her walk and saw no other adults other than the male on the bridge."


Have you a link for the Sig Sauer comment? Because in the PCA it was traced to his specific Sig Sauer.

 

[Tresir]

I don't know where you came to the conclusion that the leaked photos are only the ones of the tree etc. I have heard a YTer describe that Abby looked peaceful and Libby not so much with eyes open just for starters. And he claimed he did not receive he did not think all of the photos. The tree drawing and stick drawings were also floating around long before this reported dissemination of what I think are other photos/additional photos.

I came to that conclusion because the tree and the creek shoes and clothes are the only three pics we have seen. I now understand the stick drawings were based on description of the placing of the sticks from a source to a reporter. I read that somewhere, so no link ATM. Wouldn't we have seen them if there were pictures of the dead girls out there on the net for two months?

 

[GrandmaBear]

I wonder if anybody searched that area before they were found. Nobody went to this area until the next day? I've always assumed they were found right below the end of the bridge, where they were told to go down the hill. I may be seriously wrong about that. I wouldn't be surprised if the bodies weren't put out until early on the morning of the 14th, around 3a.m. or so.

This post of yours and he one above it I have entertained all of as well. My main reason has been the pedo ring, the KK thing, the fact RL was not home BUT when one strips away all of that, it was Allen who parked and entered and was seen and on the bridge and whose bullet was found. It was Allen walking back to his car, not a bunch of people or anyone who then whisked him away from the scene and back to his car, it was one man seen, his car on video, then seen on the trails, then seen on the bridge and captured by Libby and then seen walking back all in the right time frame.

So what? A group of Os meet him coming in from RL's property yet RL wasn't there? Did they all ride together and meet up at the O leader's home or favorite McDonald's? A Big Mac before getting on their way in one vehicle or three? Allen comes in the other way all alone and has a fun time with the Os and then he leave his way and they leave theirs and say Adios? Later dude. Why even have his car, he should have been with them and they just drop him nearby before going around alleviating the need to be seen walking at all? I mean it is just too out there for a theory.

I CAN still believe KK plays in somehow and I waffle about RL. I mean the man was in his 70s was he not? I'm not a male but what would be his interest in this stuff? Even serial killers wane before then and their desires aren't the same nor their drive. This man was worried about his next beer and the fact he wasn't to drive limiting his lifestyle/daily life.

My instinct is that Allen was a lone wolf. This was HIS "gig". I do think the meeting and knowing of it may have come about via the snapchat and KK part and pedo ring and he may have been part. The bits we have seen of him I don't see him as a social type, I see him as a type who with enough beers can seem social but he isn't. He could have though been social and brave online and in finding the right types like him... Everyone is online right believing in their anonymity they get brave...

The entire Anthony Shotz thing and the fact KK or someone as Shotz talked with Libby and had a bridge/trail meeting is TOO MUCH to ignore. It just defies the odds. At minimum the girls or Libby were being toyed with and into stuff or had been approached and got into talking and meeting with, and who knows, even sharing pics with, those online they believed to be otherwise. They were beyond their depth.

None of us will ever figure this all out I don't think and even when ALL known to LE etc. comes out, I am still not sure we will ever have all questions answered.

You were never on an O kick until the defense brought up Os. I think or feel the O thing is exactly the other way around... If it is at all anything. Ponder that for a bit. It all conveniently appeared when Allen and the defense needed something big and huge due to his confessions and more.

 

[Tresir]

It seems that since the guy on the bridge seems to be larger than 5'4", someone else had to be there. Two people identified bridge guy as Ron Logan independently. I don't know what the original guesstimate on BG's height was. That would be interesting to find out. Was it closer to RL or RA's height?

We have already been over this. He had boots, a hat and a hood. He wasn't barefoot and bare-headed on the trails. One of the juveniles said he was small.

I wonder if they did an identity parade for the witnesses?

 

[GrandmaBear]

It seems that since the guy on the bridge seems to be larger than 5'4", someone else had to be there. Two people identified bridge guy as Ron Logan independently. I don't know what the original guesstimate on BG's height was. That would be interesting to find out. Was it closer to RL or RA's height?

I'm 98 percent satisfied and perhaps even more (and I rarely go that high with anything in any case) that RA is BG. First of all I saw him the other day in court. Second of all the recent voice recording I shared is another clinch. BUT also when you take ALL of the facts and put them together with that AND his own placement of self there and of parking and of going and even of leaving (lie) but going back to his car/same place and put this all together, I finally have what I need to be convinced. I have always felt they have the right guy but would have put certainty of BG at more 75/80 percent. The sn*w doesn't help, not just by defense but by people doubting it and tearing it apart and yes it affects me at times too, then I have to try to clear it because that is what it is INTENDED to do to us.

You know what is hardest in a case? Imo? It is trying to realize what is known that we don't know and what they have that we don't have. Allen's voice for one, they have more examples than we do, they interviewed him before his arrest. They also know details of his day and from his wife that we don't know. They have more examples of his voice than we do, I'd count on that.

He decided the other day for some reason to appear as BG and stopped trying to look shrunken and different.

This man has a serious deviant and pathological streak imo. I don't have the words. He is SK material at its worst. And ya see things have been twisting and going his way recently. Well it would appear not as his attys. were DQed but it IS... Going... In a way he wants... And he likes the games. And decided to boldly show up as BG. That was the VERY first unexpected reaction I had.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

The bullet is not nonsense.

The PCA also cites the witness as saying he looked as if he was in a fight which I'd take to mean bloody and on top of that again this came from the defense and has never been hashed out in a hearing. Does anyone have a recording of the witness? And when did the prosecution ever share everything she said...? Or everything that anyone said from Allen to the the girls at the bridge? Anyone have the recordings?

People are assuming things as fact that simply aren't at this point.

Where is it said that he looked like he'd been in a fight? If that's true then it speaks more to his possible innocence. BEFORE the girls were killed he had looked like he was in a fight. Who beat him up before the girls were killed, by him, allegedly. I still think he had some involvement, but not alone.

I just put some videos in the "Crimes by the Justice system and Police" thread. It was a good reminder that police forces are not always competent or honest. Something still smells fishy.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I'm 98 percent satisfied and perhaps even more (and I rarely go that high with anything in any case) that RA is BG. First of all I saw him the other day in court. Second of all the recent voice recording I shared is another clinch. BUT also when you take ALL of the facts and put them together with that AND his own placement of self there and of parking and of going and even of leaving (lie) but going back to his car/same place and put this all together, I finally have what I need to be convinced. I have always felt they have the right guy but would have put certainty of BG at more 75/80 percent. The sn*w doesn't help, not just by defense but by people doubting it and tearing it apart and yes it affects me at times too, then I have to try to clear it because that is what it is INTENDED to do to us.

You know what is hardest in a case? Imo? It is trying to realize what is known that we don't know and what they have that we don't have. Allen's voice for one, they have more examples than we do, they interviewed him before his arrest. They also know details of his day and from his wife that we don't know. They have more examples of his voice than we do, I'd count on that.

He decided the other day for some reason to appear as BG and stopped trying to look shrunken and different.

This man has a serious deviant and pathological streak imo. I don't have the words. He is SK material at its worst. And ya see things have been twisting and going his way recently. Well it would appear not as his attys. were DQed but it IS... Going... In a way he wants... And he likes the games. And decided to boldly show up as BG. That was the VERY first unexpected reaction I had.

What proof is there that "Down the hill" was said by BG? It could have been someone who was at the bottom of the hill.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

The white car was seen at 1.49 pm. He was already on the trails by then. This was the car that dropped off the girls at 1.49 pm. RA had access to 2 cars. Neither are white. He admitted he was on the trails 1.30 to 3.30 PM. So how could he be driving a white car at 1.49pm?

Have you a link for the Sig Sauer comment? Because in the PCA it was traced to his Sig Sauer.

So what does that car have to do with RA? They were on the bridge when RA says he was there. We already knew that. So what evidentiary value does that have? The girls phone would have exactly when the picture and recording of BG happened. So I don't get the white car thing.

Also, again. Nobody said they saw a black car at the scene. A purple PT Cruiser was parked near there backed in, so they couldn't see the license plate. I already demonstrated that a PT Cruiser and a Ford Focus look completely different. Oh, it might have been a smart car instead.

Was the PCA saying that the white car proves they were dropped off? We already know that!

 

[GrandmaBear]

The muddy and bloody seems to have been made up in the PCA. It was done to help get the PCA. This is one of the things that troubles me about this. Whether or not someone said muddy and bloody, or just muddy, or no comment was ever made is unclear.

The WM3 had all of the cops change their stories from their actions the night the kids were found. it was in order to fit the story they wanted people to believe.

I get that you bring the WM3 into every case now. But that says something and means you have a bias as do we all from things and it in no way means that is what is going on here. Au contraire you have cops that were doing their own investigation intrigued with the O thing after concluded it was not.

The muddy and bloody yeah, comes from the defense that it was not said and as if it is some big thing but we don't know as it has never been hashed out, we ourselves have never heard from that witness nor heard a recording of her interview or seen a transcript. If she said it looked like he was in a fight which is in the PCA uhm for me that would mean bloody before even muddy.

All, every bit of it lately, is from the defense. I am not saying there aren't issues or problems but jumping onto one side and believing all they say well...

HERE is one for you. If they were going to have cops and witnesses change their stories, this would be a lot more perfect wouldn't it, instead of the cars kind of varying and his dress varying a bit, etc. THAT is real life normal memories. They would have cops helping with false stores and more than one PERFECT lynch pin. This case ain't that.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Oh, and to point to the total cluelessness of this PD, is the drawings. The second drawing is of the guy that was pictured on the Anthony Shotts account. They couldn't do a Google image search to find where the picture came from? They couldn't put up the actual picture of the guy on the Anthony Shotts account? They said to concentrate more on the new drawing and less on the other.

KK has said he told the police what happened, but they refuse to believe his story. Unfortunately, we don't know what that story is.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No bullet was found at the crime scene. An ejected casing that hadn't been fired was found. The ejection marks can be traced to a particular weapon only. I've heard, I don't know where, so I can't say a "reliable" source. Supposedly the local police carry the exact type of gun that the casing was ejected from. So it's not like it's really rare in that area.

I also have a small suspicion that somebody in LE was involved in this as well.



I don't want to talk for her, but See above. It's my take on it.

So now it is a casing again and not a bullet?? Maybe you were the one who got me down the casing road. I was corrected a couple of weeks ago and I always thought it was a bullet but someone kept saying casing so I was referring to it as casing but it is bullet. Or is it? Psheesh I give up, no wonder the mess.




It isn't junk science and with all else has huge import. It isn't a video of a killing with the killer's face, photo ID in his hand showing on camera and his scar above his eyebrow and the one under his lip showing clearly on film too but it is major.