LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I don't think LE found a connection between KK and the murders or KK and Allen or Allen and either of those two profiles or any other.
Regardless, the theory of a conspiracy has never made sense to me.
Have you a link that states they found no connection?

So you don't think the Anthony Shots profile had anything to do with the catfishing of the girls?
 
Well that's a horrible news story.:shocked: And sounds nothing like what came out in the PCA. Did this story get widely debunked? Or are we still expecting cat DNA and a rape and a souvenir at RL's house? :censored:
Come on it is Daily Mail so there is that. And an older article. And they just imo follow the more edgy or wilder talk on line and put some sh*t together and run with it and never get slapped.

They do get photos and such in some cases that NO ONE else gets. Happened in my state. Can name many. Maybe because they pay some not high paid LE or rent a cops watching the home if anyone, etc.

Yeah some still talk of cat hair etc. and yes it made its impact.

Most don't know this but they were imo directly responsible for false info in Morphew at its very start and many still talk and believe it. I can explain if wanted.

I don't consider them the fountain of veracity and truth.

But man they do get better photos than any news org I've ever seen (paid for I am sure, the access etc.) I consider them the equivalent of, for us older people, the National Enquirer, talbloids as we would call them. Correct me if I am wrong, but JT never allowed them last I knew. Might explain why you haven't seen it. But we are adults and can decide for ourselves what to believe. Tis why I like it here so much.

Back to your post though, we do NOT know they found nothing in the search, souvenir, photos or otherwise do we? Defense hit on what they felt they could say they do not have but ALWAYS and I have a hard time doing it as well, look for what they DO NOT SAY, no either side. Our brains work on what is said and known and not what is omitted or not there. You can think you are different with that but I have to remind myself and you do not seem to do that either. D wants that warrant voided and any results. P is not going to come out with results more than what they have to D may know they have some damaging sh*t aside from the bullet but are not going to say so as is detrimental to their case. They know P is not going to out other evidence, that's what Ps do in cases, and D knows this is their time to, excuse the sad pun, get away with murder pointing out what helps their client and ignoring what doesn't. Hmmm. Why is it their lies are okay.

THINK about what is missing. From BOTH sides. D sure wants that warrant gone yet they say the bullet thing is junk science, ya know, not even concerned. And pros is not going to share more with us either way.

People seem to think very simply that if they had anything we would know it and defense didn't say so and prosecution hasn't and won't. Huh? How about the results from the search warrant and and any subsequent testing. How about Allen's wife's interview/interrogation as to that day and these years?

Maybe they don't have more that is possible but here is how it goes. Prosecution has a case and executes a warrant. As a result of that RA is arrested as his bullet is a mtach and witnesses on the trail and yada yada yada and they go with what is ENOUGH for an arrest they figure, and a PCA. Bullet, witnesse, etc. Just get him arrested. They do not NEED to share all plus testing of of other things were underway, they just want him off the street after all these years.

Contracted or appointed private BUT engaged as public defenders state paid (don't want to have that debate again, catch the case and are put on board. It takes them a bit understandably but probably RA feels they cared not all and then it was excuses of why they weren't on top of anything wah, cry, blubber as it is too far to drive to see him, etc. That is ALL they really went on about when they finally got around to anything...

Shall I go on? Everyone here knows.

So it was that and when that did not work it was his mental health and lack of eating and he loses weight, etc. And when that did not work it was oh we can't have private conversations now that they CAN find time to go see him and when that didn't work and THEN HE CONFESSED almost everyone in the free world and even those that thought him innocent said well okay, he IS the one and that's what was going on online.


Defense quiet for way more than a moment and all thinking that is it, it is Allen. First bit of answer or response was a weak stance about his mental health. Just a blip and more silence. Time passes and here they come with the O guard thing then the O think and Franks thing. I mean not a HINT or a thing about such in the year Allen has been in custody.

It is such a no brainer. And I could add more.

Do you think for one minute old D has shared a thing from P's provided discovery that dam*s RA? I know you know better than that. I'm not saying there is such or sin't such, and of course i hope there is, but you assume from what we know we have it all? Why? Because you think the side that doesn't share would? Or you think the side that spills and leaks would leak a thing detrimental to their client??

No, instead we have a ridiculous desperate wanted in the public domain O filing/Frank's motion/memo. Why? And again an almost desperate one and one meant to bury and distract. and before that can even be dealt with, a leak and necessary reaction as they TRY to distract and throw this all of the rails. AND a sucidie.

I realize I have went on but honestly just follow this much and give me a break. The TIMING, ALL OF IT and I have not even gotten started.

I don't know that the pros has more but I do know the defense is trying to change defense to offense much because of their client's confessions and perhaps that is because he learned or knew what they have on him. Again D isn't going to share that they do

n't have to give a full pic? P though can get in trouble as is the effort for oh my goodness not putting in the request for the warrant or the PCA the ridiculous O stuff.

Yes defendant's rights. BELIEVE ME, if I were in his shoes, I would want all out every consideration to be given and granted falsely accused. LIKEWISE if I was a victim or a victim's family member I would not want those rights to SURPASS what victims have and it is so beyond and goes beyond common sense, is obvious here and ridiculous but not funny.

These are the MURDERS of TWO children who without a doubt ended their lives knowing they'd never live to see a day of high school or be an adult and in total fear and Lord knows WHAT RA put them through. And YES it was RA.

They can't take him away from his own damning statements. In some weird way I almost feel a bit sorry for him. Perhaps he wanted to unload his conscience, knew it was time to face it, confessed to his closest ones, wife and mom and perhaps even wanted to plead guilty and face the piper and make the best deal he could. BUT the D couldn't have that... This is their BIG CASE and all are going on about his confessions...

I know I have went on and on and gotten away from the post I replied to but TELL me this all doesn't make perfect sense and I haven't even touched on the half of it.
 
Included in bullet ruminations
jumping off this franks memo footnote re chain of custody:

20. On September 8, 2023, the Defense did receive photographs of the bullet at the forensic lab where it was tested.
However, the Defense still has not received photos of the bullets from the crime scene of crime scene technicians
pulling out the bullet from the ground or placing it into an evidence bag, as is standard practice, especially in murder
cases.

IMO - on the D's to-do list:
Evidence with an incomplete or unclear chain of custody can be seen as less credible.
The D can challenge the admissibility of evidence with lack of proper documentation of the chain of custody.
The court can request expert testimony to determine whether the evidence can be considered reliable.
 
Found it and bringing forward. I originally posted this 10 days ago. @Cousin Dupree (and @GrandmaBear ) have a read and tell me what you think.
That was LONG and dry. You beat me forever in pages/screens. I read plenty and enough to know it isn't junk science (but I have never thought it was) and then read a ton more and then some more and realized I was not even halfway down the pages yet despite my being a ton of pages into it. But then I am not the one who hasn't heard about this or that thinks it is junk science--I don't NEED to be convinced as I have heard it from those that really know but then heard the bs from talking heads that don't know sh*t and WANT this case to continue to have controversy. The emu, not me, is listening to such and does not have a clue what it involves or the ones he listens to sure do not but look what they get people thinking and birds thinking :D Funny but not.

Just days ago he said there was no bullet so one can figure the quality of whatever he is watching.

I am not in doubt of the bullet nor the science. Even so I read a lot of pages of your link. What I did read shows it is confirmed in more than one way/view and is not one dimenisional. And more. That's enough for me PLUS I already believe it and have heard from those who really understand it rather tan Court TV talking heads/guests.
 
Two more Filings @ SCION on the 2nd Case (orig file Nov 6):

1. Extension Request to SCION from Gull for reply to the 2nd case.
2. From RA - the Objection to the above extension request from Gull.


link here: Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access
Motion for Extension of Time

to Respond to Petition for Writ of Mandamus and Motion for Transcript Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23
Attorney: Stake, Christopher S.
Attorney: Gutwein, Matthew R
Party: Gull, Frances M. Cutino
File Stamp: 11/09/2023
Motion for Extension of Time to_Page_1.pngMotion for Extension of Time to_Page_2.pngMotion for Extension of Time to_Page_3.png

Response

/ Objection to Respondents' Motion for Extension of Time Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23
Attorney: Wieneke, Cara Schaefer
Attorney: Leeman, Mark Kelly
Party: Allen, Richard M.
File Stamp: 11/09/2023
Relator's Objection to Responden_Page_1.png's Objection to Responden_Page_1.pngRelator's Objection to Responden_Page_2.png's Objection to Responden_Page_2.pngRelator's Objection to Responden_Page_3.png's Objection to Responden_Page_3.pngRelator's Objection to Responden_Page_4.png's Objection to Responden_Page_4.png

from above:

Since November 2022, Relator has been confined in a maximum-security segregation unit in the DOC, where he has been subjected to conditions that have led to him losing nearly half his body weight and, at times, experiencing symptoms of psychosis. On several occasions, his trial attorneys requested his move to a better facility. On one of those occasions, Attorney Rozzi himself arranged for Relator’s move to the Cass County Jail, where the Cass County Sheriff agreed to accept Relator. Yet these repeated requests were denied. Every day that Relator spends in those conditions has a deleterious effect on Relator.

Context of confessions:
loss of nearly half his body weight + symptoms of psychosis = Confirmation of Duress.

As the absence of chain of custody mitigates strength of physical evidence, the conditions/context surrounding confessions can mitigate the importance of the admissions.

... this is just stuff that weakens evidence ... to keep in mind.

D will stress where the (allowed) evidence is weak/lacking to introduce reasonable doubt.
As will D stress where the investigation is weak/lacking to " " "
 
Well why would the prosecution need that new expert otherwise? It is horrible. But I googled sex ring arrests Indiana and there have been many. I didn't want to post them on here but it is prolific and widespread.
Yeah I stayed away from commenting on that but I know enough of what you speak. Not an uncommon crime there. It can be said of some other places too but not all, in that area it seems to be a crime they deal with a lot. And if you ever REALLY want to be informed on a larger level, check the D O J site as to federal rings, drugs, and more. Haven't had a life where I have had time to in a long time and unsure if this admin even is on it, but I used to and it is of NOTE and NEWS NEVER covers such things, yet it can be seen or a lot of it by the public just check it once a week or even every other day if one can. Someone should cover that bigger stuff because no none does and news SURE the heck does not.

Even for people who never have or didn't know, look at this case over the last five or so years. TONS of child sex assault offenders who were arrested we looked at and compared to bridge guy just from the surrounding IN counties and Carroll itself. It was neverending. A few were adult women rapists, etc.

There if federal and then state but IN certainly is a big one.
 
I think Logan may have looked to them like the man on the bridge simply because they knew he lived nearby. In other words, if the crime had occurred across town, I don't think they would have associated Logan and the man on the bridge.
I agree with that and add to it that he is going to be one of the first looked at and considered by LE and public alike just due to location and then his story was a lie.
 
from above:



Context of confessions:
loss of nearly half his body weight + symptoms of psychosis = Confirmation of Duress.

As the absence of chain of custody mitigates strength of physical evidence, the conditions/context surrounding confessions can mitigate the importance of the admissions.

... this is just stuff that weakens evidence ... to keep in mind.

D will stress where the (allowed) evidence is weak/lacking to introduce reasonable doubt.
As will D stress where the investigation is weak/lacking to " " "
I think he is suffering from the guilt of what he did and it is nothing to do with the conditions of the prison. Half his body weight? Give me a break - he looked fine just recently. I think he had purposely put on weight in the last few years and grown that gnome like beard.
 
I think he is suffering from the guilt of what he did and it is nothing to do with the conditions of the prison. Half his body weight? Give me a break - he looked fine just recently. I think he had purposely put on weight in the last few years and grown that gnome like beard.

This is a legal submission; his counsel has access to records re: his weight loss. In the courts, it's the facts that get a break.

Opinion not fact: Perhaps he grew an O-style beard. :shocked: :giggle:
JHMO
 
My impression is that the girls trip to the trails was spontaneous, rather impulsive, and didn't include anyone else.
Also, I think if there was a plan of meeting anyone there, LE would have certainly uncovered it and to my knowledge, they didn't.
I don't know... They had wanted to go before and Kelsey agreed this time if I recall because she had felt bad about refusing previous times. We know there was a plan to meet who they thought to be Shots as this very area. And we don't know what they have (LE) but even if too late to recover, deleted, etc. I think it all lends towards a meeting all the way to how RA was dressed.

They may not have found proof of that but they did of KK having planes with Libby. That is just too much to ignore imo. They also DRILLED KK on who else had access to HIS phone, the dropbox, etc. and a TON more.

It may seem spontaneous but one has to think of their age. They aren't going to go to grandma and say hey grandma this over 18 male model wants to meet 13 year old me and Abs on the Monan High Bridge, please, please, please can we go, he is such a hottie. No, they are going to play it as cool as young teens can and know that if they tell the truth Grandma will fast put the kibosh on it, insist on the info, tell them how naive the are AND report it.

I think they played it cool and told WHOEVER they would be there or if they couldn't guarantee a time said that they would be there at some point that day. And the person said he'd wait OR they gave a time they aimed for and told him. Or when agreed they could go, then they informed him. Etc., etc

I have one other thing I cannot shake that I'm surprised never comes up in this case as we at least I and I think we have herd of other cases like this. And it first some things. And that is that naive YOUNG girls get catfished by either let's be honest some old man or some ugly younger man online and they get the girls or one to send nude pics of selves or acts or other they as some hottie male model they want to impress they eventually do. The way it then goes is this perp then threatens to show the photos to teachers, parents, friends and spread them all over online. And for this age, this thought is the end of life as they know it to these girls or to one. It is mortifying and they or one cannot have that happen, the humiliation is beyond what they could deal with and mom, dad, grandpa, grandma, friends seeing such is the end of the world. Guy uses that, not uneard of, often how it goes, to get them to meet. I think the girls might have been onto it or realizing , young and naive or not, I'd think they likely had been warned or heard of such things. or something was being pushed hard enough and things that just got one or both wondering. He had Libby's cell number and was pushing and that's why her phone was reset hoping deleting an app or some such would stop it OR he wanted he to so he could not be caught anyhow, that rest ended up with no family locate app on it which may have also been the point. They or one could not get away from it and were mortified but realizing AND it was a meet or I am outing your nude pics and videos and SO the girls having then looked into this kind of thing or realizing it thought they could handle it, that it is just some old perv, etc. and us both together can get something on him or talk him out of it even if we have to who knows. Thought they could deal with the man. Broad daylight, two of them. REalized they probably had a pervert on their hands but not a murderer. Again two of them and felt they could talk and get him to agree OR to get something on him, pervert meeting two girls, that is why the thought to record as he approached! But then let's fast forward to the part where one girl I believe Abby says he has a gun... And then they realized or came to realize pretty quickly they were out of their depth...

I'm not sold on it but it is one scenario I have in my head and I think the phone was wiped in an attempt to not have the weirdo following, finding, etc. and to TRY to get out of whatever it was he threatened... And whatever app.. They couldn't go to adults that is how they'd feel at their age. Heck Abby's mom forbid her to walk the bridge or have a phone, etc which I agree with but a child that age isn't going to agree or feel they shouldn't, they are feeling the teen thing, think they are adult or should be able to do as they wish, etc. The other possibility is of course they had not realized any of this or went through any of this and thought they were meeting the hot male model

Anyhow that is a scenario I myself have that some things fit pretty well. But back to your post, I don't think them going out there was spontaneous at all. I mean it COULD have been with them naively posting it hat RA saw or some such but or they told KK/Shots or some such and he told RA... But no, I think a meeting more likely was planned or hoped to be worked out. I think they worked this with grandma and Kelsey in the way that teens do.

It may have been even we can't go this a.m. grandma has work for us doing some filing. Guy may have said well try again after that, I really want to meet you in person! Wasn't cit something on the order, my memory is foggy, but Becky hoped to take them to or they had asked to go to the mall but she was busy and said if they helped her then later she could...

I know I've went on and am way behind here but back to the point, I don't think this was spontaneous at all. They likely wanted it to appear to be. If I recall they had wanted to go in days prior and Kelsey had said no, she couldn't or some such, busy and she felt bad about it which is why she agreed this day. I think they had some guy on the other end pushing it. And perhaps he even suggested the mall when it was not working out... And less likely but perhaps, he even hoped for Kelsey to be there as well but I think it MORE likely the girls wanted the big sister along, I know I'd want mine in such a situation or hope she would just feel she should come along... But perhaps you could not share the fix you were in but older siblings are your heroes. I know this. My heroes have passed. But I do still have my big sister hero... And at THAT age oh yeah.

Wandering. Tired. Go figure right?

I don't think this was spontaneous overall. If it WAS they shared the plan and fact they'd be there and the general time frame.

There is so much we don't know. To listen to all on the internet and the whole D and judge stuff going on, one would think I'd want to know more about that and evidence in the case, etc. but I don't as much as I want to know about that DAY in the life of RA and his job, his wife and his daughter. Would this be a normal day of work for him but he put in for the day off ahead or last minute? Was he to be at work and come back and and did not return after lunch or break. Was the family home or at school and work? Wast here a dinner plan and did he make it in time to get the frozen lasagna in the oven while simultaneously being the newest best hub he'd ever been and doing some laundry...?

Yep it's a long one sorry. And maybe he was to make frozen chicken nuggets or nothing and was late to dinner, who knows OR was he even to come home that day or night? Did he have an O or Kiwani meeting?? All is of interest and maybe DNA etc is more important as a gold standard to some but I want to know and would as a juror about his day, what he said, what his wife said, daughter said and work said, etc. Unfortunately back in the day I doubt most of these people or entities (employer, wife, etc) were talked to due to Dufus Dulin whose follow up was find out who the three girls are... :thud:
 
This is from December 17, 2022

I found this quote very interesting:

Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland has openly stated that he believes 'Allen is not the only actor involved in this.'

And while Allen has not been charged with kidnapping, prosecutors have alleged he attempted it.

Now sources close to the investigation have claimed that Allen was acting with at least two other men and was involved in a child sex ring.



I bolded that.
It is Daily Mail but even if true, yeah Allen kidnapped and it would be back to the pedo ring not the O ring. I said make RA BG and then your thoughts make more sense...
 
@GrandmaBear Please get caught up before you respond to posts. You're posting and then later read a clarification of the post you responded to and have to make a new post. Get caught up and then ask questions about things that haven't been addressed. I'm just saying this because it will save you time and us time.
:hugs:
Well hugs back but this comes from you? The one who turned the thread back to no bullet? Or tried to. And asked things that the answers were in in their very own linked video but apparently never watched?

Yeah 90 percent of what I am trying to get through to no avail is you and responses to you from others, all week and my day off on top of it.

But sure back at ya :hugs: Love ya but:


:fryingpan::fryingpan:

Forget it. I have had to read through all this other bluster and stuff --a ton of it from you so no. Not like I am filling it every day with worries and fears that are all over the place and run amok but rest assured I am hitting a point of ya can't reassure some worrywarts enough and where I could catch up except for some numerous posts and say just forget it because you can't get this guy on a sane page anyhow. Oops I meant this bird. Later.

To each their own but I am going to repeat it, RA IS BG. That's why you can't make anything in your thousands of posts work and can't settle on a thing. :bigtongue:

Well except being stuck on RL as BG. You are all over the place with everything post after post but you are stuck on RL as BG and then whine about why nothing else in the facts fit and you cannot make it work for ANYONE,. Even yourself.

Quite all right. I thought in an hour or two I'd be able to catch up on ONE thread but not the case. Second day now with the bit of time i get. Actually third as I tried Wed. night to get a good start. What a joke. And not because there is that much new. 😱 Tis mostly a worrywart who finds what he thinks no one can see or make work and he can't either. Post after post after post for two days now and the night before.

And there WAS a bullet quit putting falsehoods out there. :catfight:
 
Well hugs back but this comes from you? The one who turned the thread back to no bullet? Or tried to. And asked things that the answers were in in their very own linked video but apparently never watched?

Yeah 90 percent of what I am trying to get through to no avail is you and responses to you from others, all week and my day off on top of it.

But sure back at ya :hugs: Love ya but:


:fryingpan::fryingpan:

Forget it. I have had to read through all this other bluster and stuff --a ton of it from you so no. Not like I am filling it every day with worries and fears that are all over the place and run amok but rest assured I am hitting a point of ya can't reassure some worrywarts enough and where I could catch up except for some numerous posts and say just forget it because you can't get this guy on a sane page anyhow. Oops I meant this bird. Later.

To each their own but I am going to repeat it, RA IS BG. That's why you can't make anything in your thousands of posts work and can't settle on a thing. :bigtongue:

Well except being stuck on RL as BG. You are all over the place with everything post after post but you are stuck on RL as BG and then whine about why nothing else in the facts fit and you cannot make it work for ANYONE,. Even yourself.

Quite all right. I thought in an hour or two I'd be able to catch up on ONE thread but not the case. Second day now with the bit of time i get. Actually third as I tried Wed. night to get a good start. What a joke. And not because there is that much new. 😱 Tis mostly a worrywart who finds what he thinks no one can see or make work and he can't either. Post after post after post for two days now and the night before.

And there WAS a bullet quit putting falsehoods out there. :catfight:

Wink Reaction GIF by Charlie Mars
 
I think he is suffering from the guilt of what he did and it is nothing to do with the conditions of the prison. Half his body weight? Give me a break - he looked fine just recently. I think he had purposely put on weight in the last few years and grown that gnome like beard.
It's amazing how much weight one can lose if not eating fast food all the time nor drinking, just to name two things that could be the "issue". Most hefty people tend to lose weight when incarcerated, especially when their heftiness is caused by those two things.
 
No, it's my opinion; despite investigating whether there were, it doesn't appear to me that they found any.

Yeah, I do, I just don't think that that had anything to do with their murders.

I believe they were going to meet AS. If so you'd think it would be on KK and RA's computers.
 
Todd Click's full comments to Murder Sheet from 9/25/23 September

Click - There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective Ferency was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana state police detective that was also assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. So the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021.

Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defense twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items.

MS - Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?

Click - Yes, that is accurate.

MS - Other than the material about the cult angle can you discuss how good a job the defense did discussing the evidence against their suspects?

Click - It would be impossible for me to explain anything further without revealing details of the investigation. But it was fairly accurate.

MS - Since their discussion of the evidence was fairly accurate can you explain what aspects you feel were sensationalized?

Click - Like I said before, it would be impossible for me to explain anything further without compromising details of the investigation. The defense team seemingly put Ferency, Murphy and I on a pedestal. We did nothing extraordinary. We just did our jobs and followed every lead that we had. We conducted our investigation the way investigations need to be completed. Granted, we were very dedicated to this investigation because the families of Abby and Libby and the community of Delphi deserve justice. As for the allegations against the correctional officers and Sheriff Liggett, I don't have any knowledge of those details so I cannot comment. I will also say for the record I fully support the defense's motion for cameras in the courtroom for transparency purposes.
 
Half the time or maybe always in a case we don't even get a video they have of a theft or car or person. In time maybe they will release a still image from a video, etc. Not unusual and this was a huge crime. Who knows?

Maybe one day we will know, even years after when old cases are talked of in some show and some detective gets asked what was the reasoning behind that decision?

What I do know is that is Allen's voice. I've rarely been so sure of anything like that in a case in my life. We can go back on this thread just here even and see us debating if the voice was KK's or could be or RL's, etc. I debated it, you debated it, people out there on the internet debated it...

I don't have the time, patience or willpower to go back and look but I do remember saying smoking and/or drinking can do that to a voice and now that KK was in jail he couldn't do those things (drink or smoke) and might sound different yada yada yada.

I thought it COULD be his if I remember correctly and I'm pretty sure I do on that. Of course at the time we never knew a thing about a Richard Allen at least not at first...We thought the case was heating up and hope was on the horizon and it was like between KK or KK and his dad and so on...

My point is I could believe it to be KK allowing for some things to make it fit or be possible and that's the case with many compared UNTIL the other night and that was an OMG moment, that was without a doubt Richard Allen. I already felt the evidence of his guilt was there and I have felt him guilty just about throughout but that was the beautiful icing on the cake. I didn't need to say is it or isn't it or make excuses for the voice match not being exact or being able to be CERTAIN because it was so CLEARLY his voice. No ratio of likelihood, it IS his voice.

What is it you are thinking? That he is saying there are guys at the bottom of the hill? You think he says something like Girls, you see those guys down the hill? Is that where you are going with this, that guys means GUYS and that's why they held it back?

That's Allen's voice. For "guys" to have went in through Logan's property, we'd have to believe Logan was part I think and I've never been sure on Logan. And a problem with that is RA denied knowing Logan/the property owner. Now RA may have lied but one would think someone or many would be aware if he knew Logan or had ever sat at a bar and had a drink with him, etc. And RA SEEMED to admit freely what he had to so as not to be caught in lies and suspected.. He admitted to being in certain locations because he KNEW he had been seen (which further confirms he is BG) by witnesses so I'd logically think if he knew people could say he darned well did know RL, he'd have admitted to it.

I am so far behind in here!
He mentioned seeing the three juveniles to DD didn't he, straight away? LE had not even put that info out at that stage.
 

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