LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I don't think it's weird he's being drugged so much as it's weird he's being drugged without consult, consent and understanding from a doctor - the purpose and the benefits. And he feels he doesn't recognize the meds from day to day - they change.
Defense will get to the bottom of it, especially now that they've asserted it on his behalf in their motion - they're obligated to do that, I would think. JMHO

Would a blood test confirm this?
 
Would a blood test confirm this?
confirm what? I'm not sure what your Q is re blood test? But at this point, should New D want to test his blood themselves, they're gonna need an 8 foot long needle, per their visit conditions.

I'm suggesting that New D has access rights to his medical records (which, one would have to trust, would represent his daily meds orders ...).
As I recall the P was argued the P should also have access to RA's medical records post "confession" and "paper-eating" incidents, etc..
Gull denied that request from P. That's an easy one; D is not claiming incompetent to stand trial, rather D suggested temporary incompetence.
If the D wants/needs to use RA's medical records in Court ... they'll produce them. MOO
 
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@Olenna

I'm not 100% sure what's going on here, but this could really help get Gull off the case.



Further discussions on below what you've linked ... and here's another on same topic - where Wieneke comments to a fellow appellate expert ("habeas litigation"):



Yup yup.
They are discussing how to even identify who wrongly pulled the affidavit from public docket when even that information is hidden, who's making the rules, how Carroll County twitter responded to an Allen County case question regarding this filing, how the first Writ (OA-1) resulted in a SCOIN Order issued against Gull for EXACTLY this behavior and she's violating that SCOIN order, and Cara thinks New D can also file directly in Gull's court their objection to the removal of the affidavit from the public record.

IMO Gull will blame the Allen County Clerk again. That poor Clerk has so many bus tire marks on her back it ain't funny. :cowcouch:
 
@RoundPeg

another conversation re: 8th Amendment



Don't know if you've run into Wieneke's further twitter back and forth w/ the habeas litigator, where Cara describes her many visits to same prison (Wabash) and same section, where she works with her clients in normal attorney/client rooms in the prison. Cara states she doesn't understand why RA's meeting with his counsel is so vastly different. Here Cara is focused on civil rights violations that suggest another type of appeal - under 8th Amendment - the right to fair treatment under confinement - which happens to be a habeas corpus violation, as she's chatting with a habeas litigator.

This is what I'm talking about, and New D's motion is similarly setting the stage for such an appellate action on RA's behalf to get him moved to a more humane confinement environment pre-trial.

New D's strategic filing/and the habeas litigation comments suggest that if Gull doesn't order RA's transfer to county custody for pre-trial ... her decision will be in front of another appellate court very soon. JMHO
 
@RoundPeg

another conversation re: 8th Amendment



Don't know if you've run into Wieneke's further twitter back and forth w/ the habeas litigator, where Cara describes her many visits to same prison (Wabash) and same section, where she works with her clients in normal attorney/client rooms in the prison. Cara states she doesn't understand why RA's meeting with his counsel is so vastly different. Here Cara is focused on civil rights violations that suggest another type of appeal - under 8th Amendment - the right to fair treatment under confinement - which happens to be a habeas corpus violation, as she's chatting with a habeas litigator.

This is what I'm talking about, and New D's motion is similarly setting the stage for such an appellate action on RA's behalf to get him moved to a more humane confinement environment pre-trial.

New D's strategic filing/and the habeas litigation comments suggest that if Gull doesn't order RA's transfer to county custody for pre-trial ... her decision will be in front of another appellate court very soon. JMHO

For the life of me, I cannot grasp why he's being treated so differently. It's ridiculous the number of people who "want justice" for the girls, but think this is okay. I think those justice seekers really want a 3 ring circus, because this is approaching flying monkey level. :(
 
For the life of me, I cannot grasp why he's being treated so differently. It's ridiculous the number of people who "want justice" for the girls, but think this is okay. I think those justice seekers really want a 3 ring circus, because this is approaching flying monkey level. :(
flying monkeys and a circus. :thinking:

Gosh, maybe it's the flying O's. :shocked:

(jk jk jk)
 
For the life of me, I cannot grasp why he's being treated so differently. It's ridiculous the number of people who "want justice" for the girls, but think this is okay. I think those justice seekers really want a 3 ring circus, because this is approaching flying monkey level. :(

It sure of Hades looks like they are trying to railroad him.
 
Just got up to date and have a few comments. Not sure I want to take a lot of notice of a document written by someone that cannot even spell affidavit.

Also, it appears that both RA and his wife did not want to speak to the new lawyers and wanted to wait till after the 18th, which would make sense to me.

As to the supposed Odin guards also being at the new detention facility, that is rather weird but perhaps it is a common religion in Indiana.

Regarding the shackling and the close observation, I don't think the guards have much say because RA is on suicide watch so certain procedures have to be followed.

There is only 5 days to go till the 18th, when everything can be addressed. If the old lawyers are reinstated or not, then RA's choice of prison can also be addressed but I know Carroll county could not take him but IIRC Cass county could. It sounds like he may be on mental health drugs so that could be addressed as well on the 18th.

I think he is suffering from mental health problems, is suicidal and tormented by his own guilt.

I am not sure if it is even normal for prisoners or their lawyers to be able to choose what prison they should be detained in but this is a horrific double murder that RA has been charged with, where one girl was virtually beheaded by the sound of it and both girls bled to death, so comparing him to Hannibal Lecter is not so outlandish IMO. Nobody knows if he is really mentally tormented or is putting on an act, but being shackled and medicated as he is, is for his, the guards' and the solicitors' safety IMO.
 
confirm what? I'm not sure what your Q is re blood test? But at this point, should New D want to test his blood themselves, they're gonna need an 8 foot long needle, per their visit conditions.

I'm suggesting that New D has access rights to his medical records (which, one would have to trust, would represent his daily meds orders ...).
As I recall the P was argued the P should also have access to RA's medical records post "confession" and "paper-eating" incidents, etc..
Gull denied that request from P. That's an easy one; D is not claiming incompetent to stand trial, rather D suggested temporary incompetence.
If the D wants/needs to use RA's medical records in Court ... they'll produce them. MOO
Emu meant for the drugs he has been given according to new D. The prison should be able to tell them what drugs, if any, that he is on. He cannot seem to tell them himself what he has been given according to the "affidfavit".

The "Affidfavit" being on and off the docket is strange but again I seem to remember the Frank's memo being released accidentally on purpose then sealed wasn't it or something weird like that?

I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to RA but just want the quickest trial possible - if that means old D then so be it. That's who he wants, apparently. But then he may not be the best judge of his own interests.
 
Just got up to date and have a few comments. Not sure I want to take a lot of notice of a document written by someone that cannot even spell affidavit.

Also, it appears that both RA and his wife did not want to speak to the new lawyers and wanted to wait till after the 18th, which would make sense to me.

As to the supposed Odin guards also being at the new detention facility, that is rather weird but perhaps it is a common religion in Indiana.

Regarding the shackling and the close observation, I don't think the guards have much say because RA is on suicide watch so certain procedures have to be followed.

There is only 5 days to go till the 18th, when everything can be addressed. If the old lawyers are reinstated or not, then RA's choice of prison can also be addressed but I know Carroll county could not take him but IIRC Cass county could. It sounds like he may be on mental health drugs so that could be addressed as well on the 18th.

I think he is suffering from mental health problems, is suicidal and tormented by his own guilt.

I am not sure if it is even normal for prisoners or their lawyers to be able to choose what prison they should be detained in but this is a horrific double murder that RA has been charged with, where one girl was virtually beheaded by the sound of it and both girls bled to death, so comparing him to Hannibal Lecter is not so outlandish IMO. Nobody knows if he is really mentally tormented or is putting on an act, but being shackled and medicated as he is, is for his, the guards' and the solicitors' safety IMO.

Just real quick re the BBM above ...
The 2nd Klan was historically strong in Indiana.
That version of the Klan has largely disappeared from Indiana.

The modern version of the Klan are white nationalists/alt-right. Modern version got started in the 1990's. (skinheads back then)
Odinists in Indiana are white nationalist/fascists/alt-right - heavily concentrated in Indiana prisons back to the 1990's, less so but in pockets of the general population. (Research from SPLC - an organization founded in 1971, world-famous for watching/reporting/tracking Klan activity in the US)

here's a link to a 1998 article from the Southern Poverty Law Center ties Odinism to the Klan/White Supremacy/Nazis.
The article explains the distinction between the pagan religion some practice ... and the adoption and warping of a pagan religion for racist purposes.

If anyone's interested - and I know everyone can google - Klan history in the US is very well documented and Wiki is actually a good source.
Older Indiana Klan history:
Ku Klux Klan - Wikipedia (see 2nd Klan, Indiana Klan)
 
Just got up to date and have a few comments. Not sure I want to take a lot of notice of a document written by someone that cannot even spell affidavit.

Also, it appears that both RA and his wife did not want to speak to the new lawyers and wanted to wait till after the 18th, which would make sense to me.

As to the supposed Odin guards also being at the new detention facility, that is rather weird but perhaps it is a common religion in Indiana.

Regarding the shackling and the close observation, I don't think the guards have much say because RA is on suicide watch so certain procedures have to be followed.

There is only 5 days to go till the 18th, when everything can be addressed. If the old lawyers are reinstated or not, then RA's choice of prison can also be addressed but I know Carroll county could not take him but IIRC Cass county could. It sounds like he may be on mental health drugs so that could be addressed as well on the 18th.

I think he is suffering from mental health problems, is suicidal and tormented by his own guilt.

I am not sure if it is even normal for prisoners or their lawyers to be able to choose what prison they should be detained in but this is a horrific double murder that RA has been charged with, where one girl was virtually beheaded by the sound of it and both girls bled to death, so comparing him to Hannibal Lecter is not so outlandish IMO. Nobody knows if he is really mentally tormented or is putting on an act, but being shackled and medicated as he is, is for his, the guards' and the solicitors' safety IMO.
BBM #2
Well, no one in the Court system ignores a document because of a typo. But I hear ya ...
the misspelling of Hannibal Lecter really annoyed me. ;)

BBM #3
In spite of understanding that RA didn't accept his new lawyers quite yet, New D felt strongly enough about RA's confinement conditions to work with him to motion for relief from 8th Amendment confinement violations. RA agreed to New D bringing this motion.

Agree w/ you as to suicide risk.
 
This bit is incorrect in the article. He hasn't spent years in custody, just fifteen months.

"Attorneys Robert Scremin and William Lebrato filed the six page motion this week asking for Allen to be moved to a closer location, or their ability to represent Allen may be "seriously, if not fatally" impacted.


Allen, who is charged with murder in the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi in 2017, has faced a long battle of his safekeeping during the two-plus years of him being in custody.

After spending years in the Westville Correctional Facility, where both Allen's previous attorneys and new attorneys have raised issue, Allen was moved to the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility on December 6, 2023."
 
Just real quick re the BBM above ...
The 2nd Klan was historically strong in Indiana.
That version of the Klan has largely disappeared from Indiana.

The modern version of the Klan are white nationalists/alt-right. Modern version got started in the 1990's. (skinheads back then)
Odinists in Indiana are white nationalist/fascists/alt-right - heavily concentrated in Indiana prisons back to the 1990's, less so but in pockets of the general population. (Research from SPLC - an organization founded in 1971, world-famous for watching/reporting/tracking Klan activity in the US)

here's a link to a 1998 article from the Southern Poverty Law Center ties Odinism to the Klan/White Supremacy/Nazis.
The article explains the distinction between the pagan religion some practice ... and the adoption and warping of a pagan religion for racist purposes.

If anyone's interested - and I know everyone can google - Klan history in the US is very well documented and Wiki is actually a good source.
Older Indiana Klan history:
Ku Klux Klan - Wikipedia (see 2nd Klan, Indiana Klan)
Nobody has said the guards are in the KKK or are skinheads. They just have a tattoo of a hammer.
 
Just got up to date and have a few comments. Not sure I want to take a lot of notice of a document written by someone that cannot even spell affidavit.

Also, it appears that both RA and his wife did not want to speak to the new lawyers and wanted to wait till after the 18th, which would make sense to me.

As to the supposed Odin guards also being at the new detention facility, that is rather weird but perhaps it is a common religion in Indiana.

Regarding the shackling and the close observation, I don't think the guards have much say because RA is on suicide watch so certain procedures have to be followed.

There is only 5 days to go till the 18th, when everything can be addressed. If the old lawyers are reinstated or not, then RA's choice of prison can also be addressed but I know Carroll county could not take him but IIRC Cass county could. It sounds like he may be on mental health drugs so that could be addressed as well on the 18th.

I think he is suffering from mental health problems, is suicidal and tormented by his own guilt.

I am not sure if it is even normal for prisoners or their lawyers to be able to choose what prison they should be detained in but this is a horrific double murder that RA has been charged with, where one girl was virtually beheaded by the sound of it and both girls bled to death, so comparing him to Hannibal Lecter is not so outlandish IMO. Nobody knows if he is really mentally tormented or is putting on an act, but being shackled and medicated as he is, is for his, the guards' and the solicitors' safety IMO.
In Indiana, it's normal to house the accused in the county jail where they are charged. That's my personal hangup here, this is not normal. I know of one mass murder, a long time ago, where 4 accused men were housed in county jails. They were separated so they wouldn't kill each other.
 
In Indiana, it's normal to house the accused in the county jail where they are charged. That's my personal hangup here, this is not normal. I know of one mass murder, a long time ago, where 4 accused men were housed in county jails. They were separated so they wouldn't kill each other.
I agree, I have a problem with this as well.
 
Nobody has said the guards are in the KKK or are skinheads. They just have a tattoo of a hammer.
just to be clear, I provided the KKK links for regional historic background on such groups in the US.
(Other countries have their own history with similar groups)

Americans generally know that nationalist/survivalist/racist/extremist groups exist here; some of these groups have been responsible for incidents of US domestic terrorism including Jan 6th.

Agree no one has said the guards are KKK or skin heads.
IIRC, as to the guards questioned in this case - they themselves - acknowledged that they are Odinist and white nationalist. (See their affidavits brought by the Prison via the state in response to the Franks motion.)

Not to split hairs here, but skin heads was the 1990's name for the groups that are white nationalists today. (See "New Brand of Racist Odinist Religion...")
Experts see these racist/fascist organizations through the years as simply morphs of the same extremist (racist/fascist) belief system, with different social traditions.
 

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