LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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Again, when has it been proven that he's a child killer?

Also, those who identify as Christian should know that Christ would be for the gentle treatment of prisoners.
All prisoners get shackled and I don't consider that gentle treatment. RA is also on suicide watch. They have to safeguard him which entails constant surveillance. Religion is irrelevant to those safeguards IMO.

I just answered the proven question.
 
BBM
I understand what you're saying.
To be clear, no one here is questioning fellow posters sympathy freedoms!

I don't necessarily believe criminal defense attorneys "must have sympathy" for their defendant clients in order to fulfill their professional obligations.
I think more like ... to do their job well ... a criminal defense attorney will seek to develop a rapport and a level of trust with their defendant client.

IMO plenty of criminal attorneys do not like or sympathize with certain of their clients one iota. They use logic mind tricks to do their job without emotion, and without guilt or ending up hating themselves for getting the bad guy off.
Don't attorneys have to believe their client is innocent?
 
If Cara can have remote hearings why can't the new D do it that way too rather than travel for 10 hours? It's a good job they have only done it once. Westville was closer presumably. The state is paying for the hours so it shouldn't affect his effectiveness of defence counsel.

In the legal field, it's generally considered unfair and prejudicially disadvantageous to force an innocent-until-proven guilty defendant to prep for a complex death penalty murder trial remotely. Massive amounts of evidence must be shared with defendant and he must understand it; things need to be reviewed, explained, discussed in person. Learning law happens. Relationships/trust can't be developed as quickly or as well remotely. Once they get rolling and go through docs once ... the client can probably work through readings on his own and meet remotely more often. One work-around I can think of after several attny-client pow-wows in person ... is that a legal aid could travel/sit in the prison managing paper and digital and lawyer can be remote ... but STILL that's the client's legal support in the room reviewing case stuff with the client. New D had Scremin and Lebrato at the RA visits as well as their investigator. Imagine driving 20+ hours for a get to know you and your case meeting and being told nope, sit here and speak into this meal door, no passing papers, no passing exhibits, no sharing screens, no seeing interview/deposition/evidence against you, or for you - just tough titties - RA is a hannibal lecter level (presumed innocent?) joke.

As you can tell I really believe this is unfair and completely unacceptable and provides plenty of evidence for inadequate counsel appellate complaints.
IMO, Neither Side should want this sort of unfairness to taint the trial.

The justice system game HAS to be fair, and that Lady Justice weighing the Scales HAS to be blindfolded.
And if the game is not fair and if the lady justice is biased ... well then, justice fails, it's game over, mistrial, whatever the case the victims are screwed again.

Casey Anthony (was believed to have) murdered her daughter and actually lived with her lawyers pre-trial when she was not hanging out in her lawyers' office - for more than a year (leg monitor) - since she hated her parents and vice-versa. No one realized that not living with her mom/dad was all part of the defense plan accusing her dad of rape. Talk about a zealous full-service criminal defense.

JMHO
 
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In the legal field, it's generally considered unfair and prejudicially disadvantageous to force an innocent-until-proven guilty defendant to prep for a complex death penalty murder trial remotely. Massive amounts of evidence must be shared with defendant and he must understand it; things need to be reviewed, explained, discussed in person. Learning law happens. Relationships/trust can't be developed as quickly or as well remotely. Once they get rolling and go through docs once ... the client can probably work through readings on his own and meet remotely more often. One work-around I can think of after several attny-client pow-wows in person ... is that a legal aid could travel/sit in the prison managing paper and digital and lawyer can be remote ... but STILL that's the client's legal support in the room reviewing case stuff with the client. New D had Scremin and Lebrato at the RA visits as well as their investigator. Imagine driving 20+ hours for a get to know you and your case meeting and being told nope, sit here and speak into this meal door, no passing papers, no passing exhibits, no sharing screens, no seeing interview/deposition/evidence against you, or for you - just tough titties - RA is a hannibal lecter level (presumed innocent?) joke.

As you can tell I really believe this is unfair and completely unacceptable and provides plenty of evidence for inadequate counsel appellate complaints.
IMO, Neither Side should want this sort of unfairness to taint the trial.

The justice system game HAS to be fair, and that Lady Justice weighing the Scales HAS to be blindfolded.
And if the game is not fair and if the lady justice is biased ... well then, justice fails, it's game over, mistrial, whatever the case the victims are screwed again.

Casey Anthony (was believed to have) murdered her daughter and actually lived with her lawyers pre-trial when she was not hanging out in her lawyers' office - for more than a year (leg monitor) - since she hated her parents and vice-versa. No one realized that not living with her mom/dad was all part of the defense plan accusing her dad of rape. Talk about a zealous full-service criminal defense.

JMHO
What did they do during Covid?

Maybe CA was innocent? I didn't follow the case at all.

It seems to me that neither set of lawyers have prepared a defence yet except to say SODDI. So they clearly believe he is innocent.

Why have the new lawyers only visited twice so far? Once a month does not seem very much. They could stay over and visit for two or three days in a row. They could also complain to the governor about the visiting restrictions. All they have done so far is adopt the same line as the prior attorneys AFAICS.
 
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I didn't say it was proven. Don't put words in my mouth. This is what he is charged and accused with and why he is in jail without bail.
Why do you think it is without a doctor? I must have missed that. I thought he went to Wabash due to better medical facilities no? IMO he is pretending and putting on this " poor me " demeanour.

I have no sympathy for a murdering multiple child killer, that the prison system is attempting to keep from harming himself.

Send him back to Carroll or Cass, or Allen even, by all means if that is what his defence want- but they are not his defence, yet.

BBM

That's where you said it.
 
What did they do during Covid?
Covid relieved overcrowding through death and the release of the non-violent on monitors. Covid paused the courts 100%, and then returned by 20%, etc - for more than a year and it backed up the courts by at least a year, actually. There's no covid now.

Maybe CA was innocent? I didn't follow the case at all.

Maybe OJ was innocent? (no one believes that either.)

It seems to me that neither set of lawyers have prepared a defence yet except to say SODDI. So they clearly believe he is innocent.

IMO, O-Theory is the defense, it would seem. D only needs to bring doubt that overcomes the P's case.. D does not need to believe he's innocent.; (Although ... Hennessey (Baldwin's attny supporting him in Gull's court) keeps publicly stating the Old D believes RA is innocent - fwiw.)

Why have the new lawyers only visited twice so far? Once a month does not seem very much. They could stay over and visit for two or three days in a row. They could also complain to the governor about the visiting restrictions. All they have done so far is adopt the same line as the prior attorneys AFAICS.

IMO, 2 months with 2 weeks being holiday... 2 visits, with a client who is hopeful that this New-D is temporary seems right. New D is employed by the State with a prerogative to review this case. Instructions from Court: catch up on case file, either adopt the Old D's theory, or part of the theory, or none of the theory, develop new theory. To that end, New D has likely billed more than $20,000 in hours becoming experts on both D and P sides as to existing facts/experts/evidence/depositions in case to date - in order to determine their moving forward plan. After this review they've advised the Court that they endorse the Old D's theory and argument, including the Old D's argument that RA must be transferred/held in a facility other than state prison.

I'm wondering:

- What's next; given New D has found the Franks Memo, Exhibits, and O-Theory therein to have merit, are they ready to request those hearings be calendared?

- Was there any strategy in filing the status of their review to signal to higher court New D's zealous representation of RA already matches the Old D?

- Have Gull's colleagues on the bench offered the support of the increased Admin Role so Gull can bow out gracefully? If you put on the Allen Superior Court Robe ... you might feel like Gull went down south - gamely/bravely to face a wild and crazy storm of a trial that the local Judge was afraid of and the rest of the Judges were likely relieved they weren't tapped for.
 
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Way behind in here. Don't know if I will get caught up before live court this week.

Most courts were way backed up before Covid and always are and Covid gave a great excuse to blame it all on that AND a great excuse to shut down completely when much could have still been handled. The only good it did was force many of them into this century with learning to do and use Zoom and Webex but hardly until it all eased, it's something in my opinion that should have been know, common and available prior.

At least there are some things on which some or most can agree. Casey AND OJ are guilty imo. I think most agree. We do vary widely though in our thoughts on why the verdict came back as it did but regardless, I think there are few in this country, and even world, that don't believe them both guilty of murder.

I read the last post first and am reading upwards backwards and I should probably go in the other direction but may be too far behind to do that.

I differ on most of the rest but don't care.

Gull doesn't have to bow out gracefully. No one has taken her off. If the ISC does after arguments when a decision is later issued, it still doesn't mean she'd be off anything but this particular case. As far as I can see, she is in absolutely no hot water as a judge.

Maybe after a decision even if in her favor, she may choose to go and focus on just the new role but I wouldn't count on it.

I could actually see this remanded back to the trial court. IF a need is seen to do so.

As far as new D and old D and what they are or aren't doing, it seems meaningless to me and for nothing but show at the moment and timing as always, probably an attempt to influence.

Gull's appt. is not odd. With her history and experience, this is probably exactly what would have happened whether this was going on in this case or not. She'd very LIKELY be appointed to something like this. And not a single thing has happened nor been decided that would give any reason not to. And even IF a decision goes the other way, she is still that qualified and experienced.

It isn't like the woman is criminally charged with something. I mean c'mon.
 
What did they do during Covid?

Maybe CA was innocent? I didn't follow the case at all.

It seems to me that neither set of lawyers have prepared a defence yet except to say SODDI. So they clearly believe he is innocent.

Why have the new lawyers only visited twice so far? Once a month does not seem very much. They could stay over and visit for two or three days in a row. They could also complain to the governor about the visiting restrictions. All they have done so far is adopt the same line as the prior attorneys AFAICS.
Most people have no doubt Casey killed her daughter. I didn't follow the entire trial at the time either but saw much and much of the investigation up to and when they couldn't find Caylee as well. I did watch all of the trial and parts I missed later. I"ve never had a doubt she killed her daughter from early on, before finding Kaylee and before arrest even. No problem you don't know the case, if you did, I don't think you'd have any doubt.

I'm tired, long work day. Help me out, I should likely know but what does SODDI stand for?

Lawyers are supposed to work with the jail or prison and NOT complain to the court but take their concerns to the facility warden or director, etc. I'm not sure if that varies by state abut I doubt it does much. I just saw it in a few cases. The judge told the defendant and the defense attorney they are not the ones to come to, they do not rule or control the facility and the judge is not the remedy. One of these cases was Donna Adelson and her attorney immediately complaining about her treatment. The judge was nice imo and nicer than he had to be as he could have put both her and her lawyer strongly in their place for bringing it to him and Donna couldn't behave either. I don't remember the other one but I found it interesting as I never knew that but it all made sense after hearing it, just as when jails transfer prisoners, etc. to other facilities. AND decide which facility each convicted inmate is going to go to. That isn't done by the judge.

Anyhow, a bit of sidetrack but yeah, new D is doing the same sh*t as old D the way it sounds.

Anyone know what time this all starts? It is Thursday right? Any feeds out there set up yet for the live viewing?
 
Didn't Jodi Arias' attorney tell the jury that even he couldn't stand her! :giggling:

Jose Baez seems proud of getting a baby killer off the hook. Cheyney even flipped off the crowds while leaving the courtroom after the visit.
Yes and the Court made him stay on and see it through. The last one anyhow.
 
Didn't Jodi Arias' attorney tell the jury that even he couldn't stand her! :giggling:

Jose Baez seems proud of getting a baby killer off the hook. Cheyney even flipped off the crowds while leaving the courtroom after the visit.
Don't be a hypocrite. You claimed to @Tresir RA hasn't been convicted yet so is not a child killer and Casey was not convicted but RIGHT HERE you call her a baby killer.

I think we all know/feel she is but don't talk out of both sides of your mouth emu and give her sh*t for saying that with no conviction when Casey WAS TRIED with no conviction yet you call her one.
 
Again, when has it been proven that he's a child killer?

Also, those who identify as Christian should know that Christ would be for the gentle treatment of prisoners.
I identify as Christian as many of us do and I disagree with you and also would say you are really taking things off track now.

Jesus was against injustice and loved children and the murders of children are terribly unjust.

God also allows for the laws of mankind.

I had this conversation in depth at the hospital our brain dead baby laid at WITH a minister. I had some really tough questions for him.

It also touched on being a doormat whether a person or a system and whether that's what being Christian asked for, you give, you forgive, you take it even when the other person is using that softness or weak rules to their advantage.

You talk of the fact he is not convicted as the killer of the girls BUT there is also NO PROOF or conclusion he is being treated worse than any other prisoner, was abused or anything else. NONE. TO DATE.

So on one had you say he is not convicted but you convict on allegations on his behalf of alleged treatment.

The Christian thing does not belong here, NOT because I think it should not be allowed anywhere at any time because it should if other such can be but you are using that to argue your side and it is very debatable what is unjust in this case--the MURDER of two children was UNJUST.
 
They aren't because he hasn't accepted them, he still wants the pro bone ones.
I'm reading upwards backwards clearly but I think the best way to put it is that everything is in limbo. They ARE his new D, Gull put them on and nothing yet has said they are not is there any order saying her appointment doesn't stand yet. Nothing at all is likely to proceed in this case until a decision/decisions come down. New D would be smart to be however getting up to speed on all the info in the case which it sounds like they have, etc. I'd say anything they file right now or have recently is for show or hopeful influence. Jmo.
 
Cara Wieneke is RA's appellate attorney for the matter currently at SCOIN. Don't know her career/client history, you might check out the Wieneke website. Refer to the motion where Scremin asserts same - unusual harsh treatment of murder suspect and outrageous attny travel burden - based on his his 25 years as criminal attny.




Yes, Westville guard, was not permitted to wear patch and solved that with the tattoo; guard's tic toc confirms ... I don't have tic-toc, I only have twitter so ... that's how I shared the tic toc of relevance

New D visited RA twice; once at each prison; their motion covers both prisons. The motion argues a)concern for RA's well being. and b) they cannot conduct a competent defense under RA's holding conditions.
.


b/c RA's drugged and doesn't know what meds he's taking, jmo that he'd know/understand his medication if he was under doctor's care.
IIRCC Wabash v Westvillle medical facilities discussion I've seen was speculation - I don't think we know if there's any difference.
New D are RA's (current) defense attorneys of record under Gull's court.
New D explained that RA & wife recognize Old D as RA's preferred counsel and are waiting out SCOIN.
In the meantime, any motion brought to Gull must be brought by attny of record.

Sympathy or no sympathy for accused is irrelevant. What's relevant here is the law, part of that is equal treatment under the law ... here they are duking out the definition of equal treatment with these motions to hold RA for trial in a facility that's not a state prison, and that is reasonable accessible for him to be able to meet/work with his defense.

Rights of those in custody awaiting trial are protected by the 8th Amendment; it is well developed law, plenty of case law, and in this case a 2nd set of Defense attorneys assert that RA's rights - including the right to have a viable defense - are are being denied. These are constitutional issues; I find them interesting rather than annoying. To each his own, I suppose.


Agree - from this motion, it's evident that New D has adopted the Old D's theory of defense; must be that the New D thinks it will work.

jmho
I guess it may get them one nutty hung juror. Other than that, it's a ridiculous decision imo to take such on. It will NEVER get them an acquittal.
 
I was just looking at mycase. As of right now, they are his defense team. I guess the January 18 SC hearing will determine if they stay or go.
Gull appointed them and got rid of old D and that's how it stands. No one of higher power has struck her decision down or right to do so down with any order. So yeah, they're the defense team at the moment. It's one of the hings being decided or looked at.

Sorry I realize it's been a few since I've been in here so probably already said. Trying to quickly catch up with some if not all.
 
How many appeals have ever used travel time for the attorney as an ineffective counsel claim on appeal? I seriously doubt this is something that would stand in such a claim. I doubt there are any that were won on such a basis but if anyone knows of one, please share it.

Rozzi and Baldwin have went gee all out for RA so the criteria isn't met for ineffective assistance. Maybe it is for other appeal claims or could be but I don't see it for that one.

And apparently new D has already espoused similar things and have filed to so they seem like they are trying to do an effective job.

If it has an appeal basis, I don't think that's the one it fits.

And just like substituting a judge, you go there first and with distance or problems meeting with your client, etc., you deal with the facility and try to rectify that that way first.

None of them have done that. Even he ISC said as much with the judge thing if I recall. They don't pursue the right legal avenues or exhaust the first ones first.

Personally, I don't think they are in the right place to have this in front of the ISC to begin with with any of it but that's just my uneducated guess.

They have a chance and have been allowed arguments, both sides have on PART of it.

There are separate issues here but the one side on the coin likes to jumble them all together and get people on that side doing the same.

For instance, the removal of Old D wasn't related or directly related in ANY way to how Allen is treated, where he is housed, or how far away it is. It was DUE to LEAKS or this FRIEND stealing sh*t and sharing it without D's knowledge. Yeah right. But regardless, the two things should not be muddled. They are different. And decisions could come down on one thing one way and the other thing another way.
 
Has RA agreed for Cara to be his appellate attorney? Have you got a link for that? We know he hasn't accepted the new D. Regarding drugs for mental health, a doctor would have to prescribe them. It is very likely his drugs for his mental health have affected him and he may well not even know what he is taking, but his wife should know IME.
I understand the 8th Amendment and believe that is why he is at a correctional facility where they will have mental health facilities. The custody suite at Carroll couldn't handle it apparently.

As for new defence adopting old defence Odin theories, I am not sure about that and it is more likely they are just going with it until they can receive direct instructions from their client, which clearly hasn't happened yet, as he wants his old defence.

Sympathy is relevant. His defence must have sympathy for his cause/innocence or guilt/state of mind etc. We don't have to have any and I don't as mine is entirely for the victims and their families and friends.
Same. I am for the children and the VICTIMS and their loved ones.

New D going with the O thing says enough to me. There was NOTHING to back up any group of Os being there and NOTHING that takes RA away from being there. THey need an excuse for every single thing here, a separate excuse for each. Way too many. Being there. The gun. The confessions years later. Anyone with any common sense knows no way can there be that many coincidences and excuses needed.

I have no sympathy for Allen. I don't want him beaten or abused but I have no sympathy. for a man who allegedly killed two CHILDREN being incarcerted. Just as you, my sympathy lies on the victim side. And I"ve seen not a single thing yet to think Allen is not the one responsible. Not a SINGLE thing. A lot of smoke and mirrors and that's it.
 
This is the Westville guard right? If he got the tattoo in October. RA has not been at Westville for a month now.

A lot of misinfo being shared IMO.
Yeah no kidding. He was moved to Westville November 2022. And was arrested on October 2i6, 2022. So a guard got a tat a year later? How convenient is that for the defense...

I am following your thought correctly right? This was even after the O filing.
 
So let the prison sack them then and hire some gentle, peace loving guards. That would work. This guy is a danger to himself and others and he has had 6 years of freedom with no cares in the world. Now he is a shrivelled, poor, frightened tortured soul. I don't buy what they are selling.

So the guy with the tattoo is not his present guard at Wabash then? So what is the problem. The defence are pushing this and the Odin defence for their own agenda and it will not work IMO.
Actually he looked really good and healthy and almost content at his last hearing. Some others don't seem to have seen it or noticed that. Coming in, leaving and all of it.

A gentle soul for a prison guard. Boyi people are really lost in love is the answer land (not you).

Yes he has had years of freedom while the girls are dead and their families tortured with the lack of arrests through the years and the losses.
 

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