LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

1581272168478.png

Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


1581272119747.png


 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think it's weird he's being drugged so much as it's weird he's being drugged without consult, consent and understanding from a doctor - the purpose and the benefits. And he feels he doesn't recognize the meds from day to day - they change.
Defense will get to the bottom of it, especially now that they've asserted it on his behalf in their motion - they're obligated to do that, I would think. JMHO
Why do you think it is without a doctor? I must have missed that. I thought he went to Wabash due to better medical facilities no? IMO he is pretending and putting on this " poor me " demeanour.

I have no sympathy for a murdering multiple child killer, that the prison system is attempting to keep from harming himself.

Send him back to Carroll or Cass, or Allen even, by all means if that is what his defence want- but they are not his defence, yet.
 
just to be clear, I provided the KKK links for regional historic background on such groups in the US.
(Other countries have their own history with similar groups)

Americans generally know that nationalist/survivalist/racist/extremist groups exist here; some of these groups have been responsible for incidents of US domestic terrorism including Jan 6th.

Agree no one has said the guards are KKK or skin heads.
IIRC, as to the guards questioned in this case - they themselves - acknowledged that they are Odinist and white nationalist. (See their affidavits brought by the Prison via the state in response to the Franks motion.)

Not to split hairs here, but skin heads was the 1990's name for the groups that are white nationalists today. (See "New Brand of Racist Odinist Religion...")
Experts see these racist/fascist organizations through the years as simply morphs of the same extremist (racist/fascist) belief system, with different social traditions.
So let the prison sack them then and hire some gentle, peace loving guards. That would work. This guy is a danger to himself and others and he has had 6 years of freedom with no cares in the world. Now he is a shrivelled, poor, frightened tortured soul. I don't buy what they are selling.

So the guy with the tattoo is not his present guard at Wabash then? So what is the problem. The defence are pushing this and the Odin defence for their own agenda and it will not work IMO.
 
@RoundPeg

another conversation re: 8th Amendment



Don't know if you've run into Wieneke's further twitter back and forth w/ the habeas litigator, where Cara describes her many visits to same prison (Wabash) and same section, where she works with her clients in normal attorney/client rooms in the prison. Cara states she doesn't understand why RA's meeting with his counsel is so vastly different. Here Cara is focused on civil rights violations that suggest another type of appeal - under 8th Amendment - the right to fair treatment under confinement - which happens to be a habeas corpus violation, as she's chatting with a habeas litigator.

This is what I'm talking about, and New D's motion is similarly setting the stage for such an appellate action on RA's behalf to get him moved to a more humane confinement environment pre-trial.

New D's strategic filing/and the habeas litigation comments suggest that if Gull doesn't order RA's transfer to county custody for pre-trial ... her decision will be in front of another appellate court very soon. JMHO

Who is Cara? Has Cara visited a suicidal, suspected double child murderer in a correctional facility before?

Everyone she would have visited in Wabash would be convicted right?
 
Last edited:
Why do you think it is without a doctor? I must have missed that. I thought he went to Wabash due to better medical facilities no? IMO he is pretending and putting on this " poor me " demeanour.

I have no sympathy for a murdering multiple child killer, that the prison system is attempting to keep from harming himself.

Send him back to Carroll or Cass, or Allen even, by all means if that is what his defence want- but they are not his defence, yet.
I was just looking at mycase. As of right now, they are his defense team. I guess the January 18 SC hearing will determine if they stay or go.
 
Who is Cara? Has Cara visited a suicidal, suspected double child murderer in a correctional facility before?

Everyone she would have visited in Wabash would be convicted right?
Cara Wieneke is RA's appellate attorney for the matter currently at SCOIN. Don't know her career/client history, you might check out the Wieneke website. Refer to the motion where Scremin asserts same - unusual harsh treatment of murder suspect and outrageous attny travel burden - based on his his 25 years as criminal attny.


This is the Westville guard right? If he got the tattoo in October. RA has not been at Westville for a month now.

A lot of misinfo being shared IMO.

Yes, Westville guard, was not permitted to wear patch and solved that with the tattoo; guard's tic toc confirms ... I don't have tic-toc, I only have twitter so ... that's how I shared the tic toc of relevance

New D visited RA twice; once at each prison; their motion covers both prisons. The motion argues a)concern for RA's well being. and b) they cannot conduct a competent defense under RA's holding conditions.
.
Why do you think it is without a doctor? I must have missed that. I thought he went to Wabash due to better medical facilities no? IMO he is pretending and putting on this " poor me " demeanour.

I have no sympathy for a murdering multiple child killer, that the prison system is attempting to keep from harming himself.

Send him back to Carroll or Cass, or Allen even, by all means if that is what his defence want- but they are not his defence, yet.

b/c RA's drugged and doesn't know what meds he's taking, jmo that he'd know/understand his medication if he was under doctor's care.
IIRCC Wabash v Westvillle medical facilities discussion I've seen was speculation - I don't think we know if there's any difference.
New D are RA's (current) defense attorneys of record under Gull's court.
New D explained that RA & wife recognize Old D as RA's preferred counsel and are waiting out SCOIN.
In the meantime, any motion brought to Gull must be brought by attny of record.

Sympathy or no sympathy for accused is irrelevant. What's relevant here is the law, part of that is equal treatment under the law ... here they are duking out the definition of equal treatment with these motions to hold RA for trial in a facility that's not a state prison, and that is reasonable accessible for him to be able to meet/work with his defense.

Rights of those in custody awaiting trial are protected by the 8th Amendment; it is well developed law, plenty of case law, and in this case a 2nd set of Defense attorneys assert that RA's rights - including the right to have a viable defense - are are being denied. These are constitutional issues; I find them interesting rather than annoying. To each his own, I suppose.

So let the prison sack them then and hire some gentle, peace loving guards. That would work. This guy is a danger to himself and others and he has had 6 years of freedom with no cares in the world. Now he is a shrivelled, poor, frightened tortured soul. I don't buy what they are selling.

So the guy with the tattoo is not his present guard at Wabash then? So what is the problem. The defence are pushing this and the Odin defence for their own agenda and it will not work IMO.
Agree - from this motion, it's evident that New D has adopted the Old D's theory of defense; must be that the New D thinks it will work.

jmho
 
Last edited:
Cara Wieneke is RA's appellate attorney for the matter currently at SCOIN. Don't know her career/client history, you might check out the Wieneke website. Refer to the motion where Scremin asserts same - unusual harsh treatment of murder suspect and outrageous attny travel burden - based on his his 25 years as criminal attny.




Yes, Westville guard, was not permitted to wear patch and solved that with the tattoo; guard's tic toc confirms ... I don't have tic-toc, I only have twitter so ... that's how I shared the tic toc of relevance

New D visited RA twice; once at each prison; their motion covers both prisons. The motion argues a)concern for RA's well being. and b) they cannot conduct a competent defense under RA's holding conditions.
.


b/c RA's drugged and doesn't know what meds he's taking, jmo that he'd know/understand his medication if he was under doctor's care.
IIRCC Wabash v Westvillle medical facilities discussion I've seen was speculation - I don't think we know if there's any difference.
New D are RA's (current) defense attorneys of record under Gull's court.
New D explained that RA & wife recognize Old D as RA's preferred counsel and are waiting out SCOIN.
In the meantime, any motion brought to Gull must be brought by attny of record.

Sympathy or no sympathy for accused is irrelevant. What's relevant here is the law, part of that is equal treatment under the law ... here they are duking out the definition of equal treatment with these motions to hold RA for trial in a facility that's not a state prison, and that is reasonable accessible for him to be able to meet/work with his defense.

Rights of those in custody awaiting trial are protected by the 8th Amendment; it is well developed law, plenty of case law, and in this case a 2nd set of Defense attorneys assert that RA's rights - including the right to have a viable defense - are are being denied. These are constitutional issues; I find them interesting rather than annoying. To each his own, I suppose.


Agree - from this motion, it's evident that New D has adopted the Old D's theory of defense; must be that the New D thinks it will work.

jmho
Has RA agreed for Cara to be his appellate attorney? Have you got a link for that? We know he hasn't accepted the new D. Regarding drugs for mental health, a doctor would have to prescribe them. It is very likely his drugs for his mental health have affected him and he may well not even know what he is taking, but his wife should know IME.
I understand the 8th Amendment and believe that is why he is at a correctional facility where they will have mental health facilities. The custody suite at Carroll couldn't handle it apparently.

As for new defence adopting old defence Odin theories, I am not sure about that and it is more likely they are just going with it until they can receive direct instructions from their client, which clearly hasn't happened yet, as he wants his old defence.

Sympathy is relevant. His defence must have sympathy for his cause/innocence or guilt/state of mind etc. We don't have to have any and I don't as mine is entirely for the victims and their families and friends.
 
Last edited:
Has RA agreed for Cara to be his appellate attorney? Have you got a link for that? We know he hasn't accepted the new D. Regarding drugs for mental health, a doctor would have to prescribe them. It is very likely his drugs for his mental health have affected him and he may well not even know what he is taking, but his wife should know IME.
I understand the 8th Amendment and believe that is why he is at a correctional facility where they will have mental health facilities. The custody suite at Carroll couldn't handle it apparently.

As for new defence adopting old defence Odin theories, I am not sure about that and it is more likely they are just going with it until they can receive direct instructions from their client, which clearly hasn't happened yet, aschecwants the old defence.

Yes, I've linked all that stuff here months ago. Also, the latest motion is linked here, the accompanying affidavit is linked here last couple of days.

Cara and RA meet remotely; Cara has met w/ his wife. Most recently, she and RA together decided he'd not attending SCOIN arguments in person.

Agree that the New D is able to continue to pursue other theories of the case, but in this Motion, they have unequivocally announced their researched and considered decision to adopt the Franks Memo, as well as Old D's former arguments for relief (that Gull previously denied and characterized as lies and exaggerations). They're not going to be taking backsies on the Franks memo, IMO.

The 6th Amendment includes right to effective counsel ... RA's at a correctional facility where it took RA's counsel 11.5 hours one way trip (including the hour passing through prison) to sit 6 feet away from the other side of a door to not meet with, but to speak to their client through a food slot.

New D argues that these conditions are 6th Amendment violations in that RA is effectively being denied an effective defense due to these unneccessary hardships ... and they question RA's remoteness from the hearing venue - which factors in to RA's ability to attend hearings on any expedited basis (goes to speedy trial, also the 6th). They also argue the 8th Amendment as well - as to his holding conditions.
 
Last edited:
Ah ok. The court has vs he hasn't I guess?
New D visited him twice (once in each prison) and - clearly - had his permission to submit the Motion. They can't submit motions for their client that their client doesn't approve of. I took the New D's point to have more than one purpose: a) supporting the argument that RA's holding conditions are blocking them from even developing a working relationship w/ their client, b) informing the court (Gull) of RA's and wife's expressed position and preference - on waiting for SCOIN's decision on reinstating Old D and c) in spite of RA's Old D preference, New D and RA both believe holding conditions are dire and a motion for relief cannot be delayed, thus the filing.

It's easy to forget that filings like this make a record, and can have broader purposes than the obvious. This type of filing is definitely making a record for future appeals ... so some of the stuff in this motion are on the record for broader strategic reasons than just getting RA into a county jail closer to his counsel and the court. We don't know where Old D is on the action against the Prison that so annoyed Judge Gull ... but this filing could become evidence for that action as well.

I'm wondering if New D reached out to Old D with questions ... (Old D agreed when Gull asked them; if they'd be amenable) ... such that they're coordinating what's best for RA at this moment.
 
Last edited:
Has RA agreed for Cara to be his appellate attorney? Have you got a link for that? We know he hasn't accepted the new D. Regarding drugs for mental health, a doctor would have to prescribe them. It is very likely his drugs for his mental health have affected him and he may well not even know what he is taking, but his wife should know IME.
I understand the 8th Amendment and believe that is why he is at a correctional facility where they will have mental health facilities. The custody suite at Carroll couldn't handle it apparently.

As for new defence adopting old defence Odin theories, I am not sure about that and it is more likely they are just going with it until they can receive direct instructions from their client, which clearly hasn't happened yet, as he wants his old defence.

Sympathy is relevant. His defence must have sympathy for his cause/innocence or guilt/state of mind etc. We don't have to have any and I don't as mine is entirely for the victims and their families and friends.

BBM
I understand what you're saying.
To be clear, no one here is questioning fellow posters sympathy freedoms!

I don't necessarily believe criminal defense attorneys "must have sympathy" for their defendant clients in order to fulfill their professional obligations.
I think more like ... to do their job well ... a criminal defense attorney will seek to develop a rapport and a level of trust with their defendant client.

IMO plenty of criminal attorneys do not like or sympathize with certain of their clients one iota. They use logic mind tricks to do their job without emotion, and without guilt or ending up hating themselves for getting the bad guy off.
 
Last edited:
Why do you think it is without a doctor? I must have missed that. I thought he went to Wabash due to better medical facilities no? IMO he is pretending and putting on this " poor me " demeanour.

I have no sympathy for a murdering multiple child killer, that the prison system is attempting to keep from harming himself.

Send him back to Carroll or Cass, or Allen even, by all means if that is what his defence want- but they are not his defence, yet.

When was it proven that he's a child killer?
 
So let the prison sack them then and hire some gentle, peace loving guards. That would work. This guy is a danger to himself and others and he has had 6 years of freedom with no cares in the world. Now he is a shrivelled, poor, frightened tortured soul. I don't buy what they are selling.

So the guy with the tattoo is not his present guard at Wabash then? So what is the problem. The defence are pushing this and the Odin defence for their own agenda and it will not work IMO.

Again, when has it been proven that he's a child killer?

Also, those who identify as Christian should know that Christ would be for the gentle treatment of prisoners.
 
Has RA agreed for Cara to be his appellate attorney? Have you got a link for that? We know he hasn't accepted the new D. Regarding drugs for mental health, a doctor would have to prescribe them. It is very likely his drugs for his mental health have affected him and he may well not even know what he is taking, but his wife should know IME.
I understand the 8th Amendment and believe that is why he is at a correctional facility where they will have mental health facilities. The custody suite at Carroll couldn't handle it apparently.

As for new defence adopting old defence Odin theories, I am not sure about that and it is more likely they are just going with it until they can receive direct instructions from their client, which clearly hasn't happened yet, as he wants his old defence.

Sympathy is relevant. His defence must have sympathy for his cause/innocence or guilt/state of mind etc. We don't have to have any and I don't as mine is entirely for the victims and their families and friends.

He doesn't need an appellate attorney. He hasn't been convicted yet. If she's advising his legal team on how to construct motions for appellate review, should it come to that, then that's different.
 
BBM
I understand what you're saying.
To be clear, no one here is questioning fellow posters sympathy freedoms!

I don't necessarily believe criminal defense attorneys "must have sympathy" for their defendant clients in order to fulfill their professional obligations.
I think more like ... to do their job well ... a criminal defense attorney will seek to develop a rapport and a level of trust with their defendant client.

IMO plenty of criminal attorneys do not like or sympathize with certain of their clients one iota. They use logic mind tricks to do their job without emotion, and without guilt or ending up hating themselves for getting the bad guy off.

Didn't Jodi Arias' attorney tell the jury that even he couldn't stand her! :giggling:

Jose Baez seems proud of getting a baby killer off the hook. Cheyney even flipped off the crowds while leaving the courtroom after the visit.
 
Yes, I've linked all that stuff here months ago. Also, the latest motion is linked here, the accompanying affidavit is linked here last couple of days.

Cara and RA meet remotely; Cara has met w/ his wife. Most recently, she and RA together decided he'd not attend SCOIN arguments in person.

Agree that the New D is able to continue to pursue other theories of the case, but in this Motion, they have unequivocally announced their researched and considered decision to adopt the Franks Memo, as well as Old D's former arguments for relief (that Gull previously denied and characterized as lies and exaggerations). They're not going to be taking backsies on the Franks memo, IMO.

The 6th Amendment includes right to effective counsel ... RA's at a correctional facility where it took RA's counsel 11.5 hours one way trip (including the hour passing through prison) to sit 6 feet away from the other side of a door to not meet with, but to speak to their client through a food slot.

New D argues that these conditions are 6th Amendment violations in that RA is effectively being denied an effective defense due to these unneccessary hardships ... and they question RA's remoteness from the hearing venue - which factors in to RA's ability to attend hearings on any expedited basis (goes to speedy trial, also the 6th). They also argue the 8th Amendment as well - as to his holding conditions.
If Cara can have remote hearings why can't the new D do it that way too rather than travel for 10 hours? It's a good job they have only done it once. Westville was closer presumably. The state is paying for the hours so it shouldn't affect his effectiveness of defence counsel.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
2,999
Messages
238,570
Members
953
Latest member
dayday
Back
Top Bottom