LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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If you stop and look objectively at the evidence, there are a lot of questions about this arrest and trial. (If your response is going to be "Like what" go back to the first post and keep reading until you're caught up.

I can't think of a single arrest that's been made without telling the public they have DNA evidence linking the suspect to the crime., if they have some. I find it very difficult to believe that RA could pull off this crime without leaving any DNA behind. If he did this alone, covering everything that was done himself, he's a genius.

A cop I saw interviewed once said: There are about 100 things that can go wrong when you plan a murder. If you cover 50 of them, you're a genius.
 
To me, that makes absolutely no sense. There has to be some kind of motive for it. I don't believe he'd kill two kids and then stop for several years until he was caught.
You don't think "I've decided to kill someone" is motive? He went there armed with deadly weapons.

Just for the sake of free thinking things. If we leave RA out of it, what motives can you come up if you were the one that found the girls?
 
You don't think "I've decided to kill someone" is motive? He went there armed with deadly weapons.

Just for the sake of free thinking things. If we leave RA out of it, what motives can you come up if you were the one that found the girls?

I believe there was a group of them and I have no idea. I think the Odinist angle isn't as crazy as a lot of people think.

If RA wanted to kill someone and loaded up weaponry in order to do so, why did he stop after those? There had to be a specific motive for those two girls.

IIRC, KK set up a meeting for them.
 
FYI:

Here's a SCOIN hearing reddit thread (link) that I came across just today. I'm not a reddit member; came upon it by searching for Delphi Docs and a SCION transcript.



It's a thread created for comments after the SCOIN hearing.
The thread has attorneys reactions - immediately after the SCOIN hearing - and before the quick Order was issued.
(One judge commenting had a ticket for the room.)
They quote specific statements from the bench and make their inferences.
They were able to predict the outcome based on the panel's back and forth questioning.
The thread monitor says reddit will be publishing a written transcript of the taped hearing ... I couldn't find that - might have to join Reddit - perhaps later.

Anyway, it's interesting...
 
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I believe there was a group of them and I have no idea. I think the Odinist angle isn't as crazy as a lot of people think.

If RA wanted to kill someone and loaded up weaponry in order to do so, why did he stop after those? There had to be a specific motive for those two girls.

IIRC, KK set up a meeting for them.
I believe RA was part of KK's paedo ring and KK set up the meeting. RA was sent to abduct them and he had the gun. He was lurking around on the bridge for them to arrive and sat on the bench near the bridge after he had been on the bridge. Once they got on the bridge and he saw that the trail was clear both ways he knew he had time and approached across the bridge. I think when they ran and put up a fight he killed them. No O's involved, but a paedo/sex trafficking ring.
 
I believe RA was part of KK's paedo ring and KK set up the meeting. RA was sent to abduct them and he had the gun. He was lurking around on the bridge for them to arrive and sat on the bench near the bridge after he had been on the bridge. Once they got on the bridge and he saw that the trail was clear both ways he knew he had time and approached across the bridge. I think when they ran and put up a fight he killed them. No O's involved, but a paedo/sex trafficking ring.

To my knowledge there is no provable link between KK and RA. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence of them ever communicating.
 
I believe RA was part of KK's paedo ring and KK set up the meeting. RA was sent to abduct them and he had the gun. He was lurking around on the bridge for them to arrive and sat on the bench near the bridge after he had been on the bridge. Once they got on the bridge and he saw that the trail was clear both ways he knew he had time and approached across the bridge. I think when they ran and put up a fight he killed them. No O's involved, but a paedo/sex trafficking ring.
I am wayyyyy behind in here and will likely not ever catch up or go back so just doing the last few I might have time for.

In most cases, this kind of thing would seem outlandish to me and I'd not go that route but in this one there are enough reasons and indications to believe this is definitely one of the possible scenarios. And now, after all this time.......... they have charged kidnapping! Which they can do just with him by himself taking them by gunpoint, controlling them, etc. but boy they sure the heck waited... A long time...

And so that makes me think it is likely strategic... If they haven't/hadn't charged it, can they keep back part of the discovery that relates to a new charge that wasn't charged yet...? I struggle to find the words to explain what I mean but if a separate charge or in a way almost a separate case, and it wasn't charged or investigated with the murders, will things that relate be new discovery that defense will only have access to now? A full year plus later?

Or is it simply that they had all the time in the world to add these charges and waited until now and were in no rush?

Back to your theory here, this is one I hold yet as well as there is plenty to fit it. I can also hold it being Allen entirely on his own.

They both have plenty for us at this point to support either.

The O thing has nothing and is ludicrous. Old D would have been far wiser to do a Kline route as a defense but their problem there would lie in removing RA from being a part of that ring.

There's more here than we know and the defense in my opinion was trying to circumvent its coming probably because RA told all to them even if some of the things hadn't been charged yet.

Another thing I have NOT excluded yet is SA.

I think there is a lot we don't know here still.

Other than that it was not Os for goodness fricking sake.
 
To my knowledge there is no provable link between KK and RA. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence of them ever communicating.
Yah, just that one had a plan to meet Libby at the trails/bridge and that RA actually did and that a whole thing went on with Kline not long prior to RA's arrest and on and on and on.

There was no evidence either knew Logan either and yet you went there and hung onto that as well. Are you all O now lol?

We wouldn't know if there WAS evidence of a connection or communication. Why would we? Where do you get the idea the P would share this or anything more than it has to with us? And the D most certainly would not. They need a ludicrous O belief because they don't have many options. Putting RA as a member of a pedo ring wouldn't help them or RA.

You were vehement and 100 percent BG was Logan and so you have Logan and RA as part of the Os I guess. That does not add up at all.

The Kline thing as you know HAS things and reasons to leave us believing it could connect. Quite a few of them. The O thing none at all.

The Franks hearing was denied. I heard that much. The case is back with the judge officiating and ruling. Contrary to the opinions of many of how this was all going to turn out. And B & R have a ton of work to do and had better watch their Ps and Qs. And now they also have additional charges to deal with. They wanted it and they got it. I do not think they are safe in feeling they aren't going to end up correctly removed though. Hopefully they change their ways and have been hard at work in their off time. I somehow doubt it though. It would be nice to see some serious defense and a real case instead of a bunch of unethical buffoons employing ridiculous tactics and writing bad fictional fairy tales longer than the book War and Peace.

This case lacks the real lawyering of professionals showing professionalism in the defense and instead uses the all to common tactics gone over the top to the extreme in this one that more resembles desperate attempts to create a circus. Even if such results in another death by suicide. What do they care after all.

Now that the ISC thing is over, and they lost on two of three issues and Gull naturally is still in place, never thought it would be otherwise, their representation will wind its way to whatever depending on how it goes from here.

All the talk of her finding a gracefully way out with a new appointment which she could have and would have held anyhow seems moot. She has issued decisions and prosecution came down with new charges and we are back to an active case. Thankfully.
 
If you stop and look objectively at the evidence, there are a lot of questions about this arrest and trial. (If your response is going to be "Like what" go back to the first post and keep reading until you're caught up.

I can't think of a single arrest that's been made without telling the public they have DNA evidence linking the suspect to the crime., if they have some. I find it very difficult to believe that RA could pull off this crime without leaving any DNA behind. If he did this alone, covering everything that was done himself, he's a genius.

A cop I saw interviewed once said: There are about 100 things that can go wrong when you plan a murder. If you cover 50 of them, you're a genius.
He left a bullet behind. He got caught on video and was seen by witnesses and he admits he saw them. If there isn't any DNA, I don't think it is going to matter because there is so much other stuff.

Think of the Gilgo four. They are not saying the killers DNA is on all four bodies are they but there is a mixture of hairs. I mean if there was DNA then why didn't they catch LISK sooner? Since the bodies were found, that's taken 12 or 13 years to get him and they had the vehicle details for years.
 
To my knowledge there is no provable link between KK and RA. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence of them ever communicating.
The link is Libby and A-Shots (KK) who set up the meeting. I think he passed the details to RA and that's why RA went to the trails that day with a gun and knife/knives to kidnap them but it all went Pete Tong.
AJMO.
 
The link is Libby and A-Shots (KK) who set up the meeting. I think he passed the details to RA and that's why RA went to the trails that day with a gun and knife/knives to kidnap them but it all went Pete Tong.
AJMO.
I wonder if the search of RA's home yielded any links between RA and KK? I would assume the defense would have that evidence if it did?
 
The link is Libby and A-Shots (KK) who set up the meeting. I think he passed the details to RA and that's why RA went to the trails that day with a gun and knife/knives to kidnap them but it all went Pete Tong.
AJMO.

Anyone have another (or a back-up) scenario to explain RA going to the trails that day/time with a kill kit (don't forget the rope!) and deciding to pounce on not one but 2 girls, force them down the hill and across the stream etc.. (if it's confirmed there's no KK-RA relationship in evidence) ?
 
If you stop and look objectively at the evidence, there are a lot of questions about this arrest and trial. (If your response is going to be "Like what" go back to the first post and keep reading until you're caught up.

I can't think of a single arrest that's been made without telling the public they have DNA evidence linking the suspect to the crime., if they have some. I find it very difficult to believe that RA could pull off this crime without leaving any DNA behind. If he did this alone, covering everything that was done himself, he's a genius.

A cop I saw interviewed once said: There are about 100 things that can go wrong when you plan a murder. If you cover 50 of them, you're a genius.

BBM above:
This is why most folks don't plan a murder.
They just do it. :chillin:

It's also - probably - why I feel like this murder was planned.

I'm thinking about that genius part. Hmmmm....
 
Anyone have another (or a back-up) scenario to explain RA going to the trails that day/time with a kill kit (don't forget the rope!) and deciding to pounce on not one but 2 girls, force them down the hill and across the stream etc.. (if it's confirmed there's no KK-RA relationship in evidence) ?
While we're basically spitballing here, it seems to me he was fairly familiar and comfortable with his surroundings. I mean, really, walking that high bridge is a feat in itself. I would have required crawling and screaming/crying to make it across.

Another question. Why there? Why did he kill them where he did? He herded them quite a ways from the bridge. Was he headed somewhere else with them?
 
It's been confirmed by LE depos (referenced in the FM and not disputed by the D's Response to the FM). Forensics of the crimes scene found no rape.

Gosh, I can only offer the same old thing. Sorry to be repetitive. I understand your feeling about the FM, but not about LE's depositions which are in exhibits supporting the FM, those deposition-based facts not challenged by the P.

It probably makes sense to conclude the discussions where there's going to be zero progress, links or no links.




got it.


So sorry, wrong link. I did not mean to confuse.

Here's what I meant to provide .... as pdfs, it's blurry.
Best I can do w/ screen shots, but if u enlarge the 1st page, the info is there.
Or navigate to Indiana's Docket/mycase here's the case info:
Docket file stamp = 1/12/24 Docket Cause #41D03-2311-CM-001119 State Indiana County Johnson v. Mitchell Thomas Westerman
It's the Discovery Compliance Cover Sheet.
The other docs in this filing = protective order on that evidence, and NO CAMERAs - from the state.
The discovery content is - presumable, under protective order.

So, These are from the Westerman Docket. Recent State's Filing.
Here State is submitting discovery to Westerman...
Discovery Compliance document = Includes 250 pages investigation ... only 5 videos. (not 6 - what's wrong w/ my memory!)


Westerman - List of Discovery compliance (to be protected)

View attachment 21198View attachment 21199

Protective order:

View attachment 21200View attachment 21201
NO CAMERAS

View attachment 21202View attachment 21203
In your opinion, why are they issuing this protective order and denying cameras? Is it just the shrinking of the jury pool, as they say, or is there another reason for this? I mean, this is done and dusted isn't it? He surely is not going to plead not guilty, is he?
 
I believe there was a group of them and I have no idea. I think the Odinist angle isn't as crazy as a lot of people think.

If RA wanted to kill someone and loaded up weaponry in order to do so, why did he stop after those? There had to be a specific motive for those two girls.

IIRC, KK set up a meeting for them.
I searched for "did KK know RA" using their full names and this article came up. I'm sure we have seen it before but it is interesting reading it again. Apparently, at one point they lived in the same street but KK says he didnt know him.

 
In your opinion, why are they issuing this protective order and denying cameras? Is it just the shrinking of the jury pool, as they say, or is there another reason for this? I mean, this is done and dusted isn't it? He surely is not going to plead not guilty, is he?

IMO protective order is due to witnesses are counsel from the Delphi case, the content of the "converted" materials and the topics being related to Delphi case where this info is already protected...

I do think Westerman might try to plead not guilty by way of technically arguing these are inappropriate charges and you can't "convert" a picture of something - especially if not sold.

Maybe this case's P will change the charges or just accept a plea that's non-criminal.

IIRC Westerman did not request there would be no cameras after the press filed for cameras ... but the Judge denied the cameras anyhow.
 
While we're basically spitballing here, it seems to me he was fairly familiar and comfortable with his surroundings. I mean, really, walking that high bridge is a feat in itself. I would have required crawling and screaming/crying to make it across.

Another question. Why there? Why did he kill them where he did? He herded them quite a ways from the bridge. Was he headed somewhere else with them?

SO MANY QUESTIONS !!!! All unanswered. High time for trial. JMO
 

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