LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[RoundPeg]

That's what happened to me running down the phone and how it fits into the State's timeline for a 1 hr and a few minutes creek crossing double murder undressing/dressing plus staging ... proposed by the State.

I assume previously sleuthy folks ran down the phone scenarios in the years before RA. Pretty sure the ping on the 14th was known?
"phone taken and turned off" or "phone left tower range, then returned to crime scene" ... and so on.

Don't know what to think.

I've even worked through someone intentionally returning the phone (that had been taken from Libby) and placing it under ... the wrong girl ... or ... just under the girl that was dressed. The phone is a nutty thing. And I'm very curious as to why the phone's location forensics are no little interest to the P - not even provided to the D with the discovery to be used at trial. huh.

I also remember reading somewhere the family describing the calling attempts and the voice mail messages and how it just stopped even going for voice messages ... If I could read that info from family again ... might shed a little light.

It's very puzzling. But ... why ignore it?

If I remember, at the Monon High Bridge area, you can legit bounce off 2 different towers.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Regarding Libby's phone. You know, the more I think about this, the more I wonder about it.

I'm amazed her phone pinged 13, 14 hours after she was murdered. She was taking pictures, posting to SM, videoed BG, etc. That eats up a phone battery.

JMO

IF they were already dead at that time. I'm not so sure.

That's what happened to me running down the phone and how it fits into the State's timeline for a 1 hr and a few minutes creek crossing double murder undressing/dressing plus staging ... proposed by the State.

I assume previously sleuthy folks ran down the phone scenarios in the years before RA. Pretty sure the ping on the 14th was known?
"phone taken and turned off" or "phone left tower range, then returned to crime scene" ... and so on.

Don't know what to think.

I've even worked through someone intentionally returning the phone (that had been taken from Libby) and placing it under ... the wrong girl ... or ... just under the girl that was dressed. The phone is a nutty thing. And I'm very curious as to why the phone's location forensics are no little interest to the P - not even provided to the D with the discovery to be used at trial. huh.

I also remember reading somewhere the family describing the calling attempts and the voice mail messages and how it just stopped even going for voice messages ... If I could read that info from family again ... might shed a little light.

It's very puzzling. But ... why ignore it?

Phones stop going straight to voicemail if the mailbox is full. In my experience.

 

[GrandmaBear]

 

[Olenna]

IF they were already dead at that time. I'm not so sure.



Phones stop going straight to voicemail if the mailbox is full. In my experience.

and if the phone is off and/or out of a service area ...

 

[Tresir]

That's what happened to me running down the phone and how it fits into the State's timeline for a 1 hr and a few minutes creek crossing double murder undressing/dressing plus staging ... proposed by the State.

I assume previously sleuthy folks ran down the phone scenarios in the years before RA. Pretty sure the ping on the 14th was known?
"phone taken and turned off" or "phone left tower range, then returned to crime scene" ... and so on.

Don't know what to think.

I've even worked through someone intentionally returning the phone (that had been taken from Libby) and placing it under ... the wrong girl ... or ... just under the girl that was dressed. The phone is a nutty thing. And I'm very curious as to why the phone's location forensics are no little interest to the P - not even provided to the D with the discovery to be used at trial. huh.

I also remember reading somewhere the family describing the calling attempts and the voice mail messages and how it just stopped even going for voice messages ... If I could read that info from family again ... might shed a little light.

It's very puzzling. But ... why ignore it?

I think it is possiblu explainable by a cell tower expert and i suggested that last ping was the phone finally signing off. I do not believe anyone took the phone away or brought it back. We have recently seen the extensive detail of the phone movements in the Daybell case and we will no doubt have such evidence fully explained in this case too IMO.

 

[Olenna]

I think it is possiblu explainable by a cell tower expert and i suggested that last ping was the phone finally signing off. I do not believe anyone took the phone away or brought it back. We have recently seen the extensive detail of the phone movements in the Daybell case and we will no doubt have such evidence fully explained in this case too IMO.

I'm no expert. Just a user. And I'm with you - that's what's needed.

I had an iphone6 ... it was loaded with apps that pinged all day long, every 15 min or so to keep you connected, to downloading your texts, your snapchats, your news, your tweets, your notices, your emails, your facebook and insta, etc.

So yes, we'll see what the expert thinks about 11 hours of nothing from an iphone6. (But I don't think the answer is going to be that it was finally shutting down and signing off from lying dormant for 1/2 a day.)

 

[Tresir]

This is an interview from Rob Ives the previous prosecutor that has been posted before. I have copied his para about the cell phone.

Delphi cell tower pings Archives - CrimeLights

crimelights.com

ROBERT IVES: A frustrating thing… this is probably difficult to explain in the course of podcast… but the law on searches with relation to cell phones and cell phone locations was evolving right at the time this was going on, and I think some of the people discussing it didn’t always understand. Like, they would say “Well if you want to know a cell phone location, why don’t you get a search warrant?” And the problem with that is, let’s take this case, it’s a perfect example: There’s a tower near the crime scene and cell phones pinged off that tower around the time of the crime. We would like to know who they pinged off. Say, “well why don’t you get a search warrant?”. Because there is no probable cause to believe that any particular phone is going to tell us anything about the crime. There is no probable cause. People act like a search warrant is easy to get. No! Because we don’t think any particular phone is a criminal, but if we want to get a pool of 25 people who were in the area and therefore could possibly have committed the crime, you have to find out. And this is the difficulty of the modern electronic world. Of course, to look in your phone? I think clearly that’s a search warrant situation, that’s your private property. That’s like opening your house or going in your car in your person. But the location of your phone? I certainly understand people’s concerns about their privacy. ‘Why can the government figure out where I am?’ Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable. Because, you know, Carroll County: 380 square miles, 20,000 people. Very few people were out near that crime scene at the time. It’s not like…
BARBARA: –it’s a Monday afternoon.
ROBERT IVES: You aren’t going to ping on 500 phones at that period of time.

 

[Tresir]

Paul Holes talks about geofencing. From 2022.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

 

[Tresir]

This Quora response answers the last ping question pretty well IMO

Can I find out when my stolen phone last pinged a cell tower?

Answer: You can’t, alone. You can call the cell company, and they might tell you where, roughly, the last call or text was made or received. But the customer care people only have access to calls, texts, and data sessions, not pings. For that you need to get to a specialized, small group there ...

www.quora.com

"The phone sitting inactive as he describes, there is a parameter that can be set by the carrier. It is basically an activity timer. We set ours, when I still worked for a carrier, at 8 hours. So you turn your phone on, and it pings once, to tell the network it's on,and where it is. With the activity timer set at 8 hours, unless the phone moves to another cell, makes or recieves a cal or text, or starts a data session, nothing happens. After 8 hours, the phone will ping again, then be dormant for 8 more hours.

The purpose of the timer, is to not use network resources for a phone that has been off for more than 8 hours. As long as the 8 hours hasn’t passed, everytime an incoming text or voice call comes, the network will “page” the phone, in an attempt to complete the call. If the timer expires, and the phone doesnt’t ping again, the network won’t bother to look for it. You can tell when you call it.

If you call, and the phone rings 2 times (again, a timer and paging protocol defined by the carrier. Most carriers “page” twice, before routing to voicemail, about 2 rings worth), then goes to voicemail, it is likely off, but has been off less than 8 hours. If it has been longer than 8 hours, the caller won’t hear a ring at all, the ne work knows it hasn't “pinged” at the appropriate time, 8 hours. So no network resources are wasted looking for it.

If you get 4, or 5 rings before voicemail, the phone is on, but no one is answering.

Again, there are no “standards” for how these timers are set. The standards make them available, and specifies how they work. Each carrier has internal,practices for how they are set.

The only exception to the above, is if your phone is on a border between two “location areas”, which again are the defined by the carrier according to their preferences. If so, all phones periodically rescan, periodic registration, looking to be sure it's on the strongest cell (the rescan time is also defined by the carrier). If that timer is set at let’s say 5 minutes, every 5 minutes your phone will scan a list of towers, sent to it by the network, to see if it is still on the best tower. If on one scan, tower A is strongest, it will register (ping), and the 8 hour clock starts. 5 minutes later, the phone scans again. If tower A is still the strongest, nothing happens. If for some reason (you moved the phone, even slightly) on the next scan Tower B is now strongest, and B is a different location area, it will register again, pinging tower B, and updating its location in the network. Now, if a call comes, the network knows not to look for you on tower A, so it won’t waste paging resources, it will page on tower B, and any other towers sorftware defined as being part of the same location area. So if your phone is smack dab between two towers, with nearly equal signal strength, the phone could “pimg” every 5 minutes, or whatever rescan time is set. Note that while the phone is scanning, it can’t receive calls, which is why sometimes you call a phone and it goes to voicemail, but you try a minute later it rings."

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yeah I understand that but the 14th day for a new Miranda would come slap bang in the middle of that 3 day period ie on the 27th. Was he then given another Miranda? Not for us to look into but the D certainly will be doing so IMO.

Well that's if it was custodial which I don't believe it was and if he was not reminded which it is said he was and so on. Not sure if you have but I have read the response by the P which was full on a good one with many citations. He left to go to the bathroom, had a smoke (I think--tired as heck but seem to recall that--does he smoke?) and there was also reference to Cathy that I can't quite recall but contradicting that she never entered which has been stated here as if fact. Even IF the new Miranda thing applied he was arrested later that day of the 26th was he not? And I don't think anyone even the defense claims he was not Mirandized then. So I guess you have lost me there?

I wonder what it is the defense is so desperate to keep out....

 

[Tresir]

They have known about him being held since he's been held though and miranda is one of the first things any attorney would ask their client because it could be the easiest thing to get your client released.

I guess they asked their client about it so hopefully knew early on and there was no Miranda problem.

 

[GrandmaBear]

He was taken into custody by the ISP on the 26th, taken to Carroll County Jail on the 26th, at some time (I can't remember when) moved to White County Jail, on November 3 he was stashed in a state prison and Diener said "I quit".

He had no representation.

when was it he was getting his own attorney but then went on about how pricey and couldn't afford. as if I buy he was that clueless.

Diener is a wiener no argument there. Does anyone think with how many here and elsewhere have active hatred against Gull that she isn't getting threats and so on? I mean if Diener was, she has to be. I think it says something that she remains on and hasn't ran off as well.

No need to agree or respond. Jmo.

 

[Tresir]

Well that's if it was custodial which I don't believe it was and if he was not reminded which it is said he was and so on. Not sure if you have but I have read the response by the P which was full on a good one with many citations. He left to go to the bathroom, had a smoke (I think--tired as heck but seem to recall that--does he smoke?) and there was also reference to Cathy that I can't quite recall but contradicting that she never entered which has been stated here as if fact. Even IF the new Miranda thing applied he was arrested later that day of the 26th was he not? And I don't think anyone even the defense claims he was not Mirandized then. So I guess you have lost me there?

I wonder what it is the defense is so desperate to keep out....

I am just speculating about the Miranda. I don't really understand the reasons the D has about the Holeman interview.

Surely it became custodial as soon as he was handcuffed at Lafayette on the 26th right?

 

[Tresir]

If I remember, at the Monon High Bridge area, you can legit bounce off 2 different towers.

If the phone is moving around, yes, but apparently not with a stationary phone. Cell phone characteristics seem to be a complicated science all of their own IMO. Also, maybe there are 2 towers now, but what about in 2017?

Two Towers - Lord of the Rings territory.

 

[Tresir]

when was it he was getting his own attorney but then went on about how pricey and couldn't afford. as if I buy he was that clueless.

Diener is a wiener no argument there. Does anyone think with how many here and elsewhere have active hatred against Gull that she isn't getting threats and so on? I mean if Diener was, she has to be. I think it says something that she remains on and hasn't ran off as well.

No need to agree or respond. Jmo.

Very good LOL. Diener is a wiener.

Gull is a bull.

So we have a wiener, a bull and a miranda. Sorry but in a stupid mood this a.m.

 

[Tresir]

5:44:49 p.m. on February 13, 2017 until 4:33:35 a.m. on February 14, 2017

That's less than 11 hours so the pinging must have been set for around 10 or 11 hours. Girls were found at 12.15, which is less than 10 hours later so it didn't ping the tower again or it shut down IMO.

 

[Guess Who]

IF they were already dead at that time. I'm not so sure.



Phones stop going straight to voicemail if the mailbox is full. In my experience.

I always get "the person you are trying to teach has a voice mail box that is full" then hangs up on you.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yes this is what the point is I just made about the Miranda. Was he Miranda'd again on the 27th and he refused a lawyer, for example.? Am sure D is on it but me, I am wondering about it and this is also the period Judge D was involved too.
If he had no representation doesn't matter as long as he was given the opportunity to get some IMO.

He wanted to get his own attorney but found out how pricey as I recall it. My guess is actually wife was facing they could lose everything with no income from him, paying an attorney, home would be gone, etc. It is not as if Rick walked in of his own volition and just disappeared for days and had never been Mirandized before and even reminded or done so again. I see no evidence it was custodial and let's remember the bulk is recorded.

God forbids this trial doesn't go off on time or ends up delayed.

I to this day am not going to ever buy one side of things as many do with any defense filing and look who we are talking about, former antics and former filings. This issue has had a defense filing and now a prosecution response as well.

Who knows where they are at e the fourth, fifth or umpteenth FM thing.

One would THINK Daybell would be enough to put one over the edge but no it's this one that has the agenda and this all out thing where anything the defense says sends most into a flat out tizzy, then comes the follow up and imo clear agenda trying to pound it in or insert things that are not fact so they take on a life of their own and become fact. Intentionally imo. I will leave that there. Interview room vs. interrogation room and so much more lol.

I don't know that I've ever in all these years seen this case go so ghost town silent out there... What are all those who were being fed doing these days? Hiding? Worried? SERIOUSLY where are they all? This trial is on less than two weeks and it's a ghost town despite constant filings...

It is flat out NOTABLE. Well Tom is on the ball but he has nothing to worry about, I'd say many do...

I'm curious, how active is Murder Sheet talking about this these days? Haven't come across much from them but then I don't seek them either... Have they went quie because if so that would be interesting...

I am just speculating about the Miranda. I don't really understand the reasons the D has about the Holeman interview.

Surely it became custodial as soon as he was handcuffed at Lafayette on the 26th right?

Once cuffed and arrested later yeah, no argument there. Makes one really wonder what was said they don't want out, etc. Heck what don't they want thrown out other than ridiculous stuff like O fantasies. Pretty desperate imo....

 

[GrandmaBear]

Very good LOL. Diener is a wiener.

Gull is a bull.

So we have a wiener, a bull and a miranda. Sorry but in a stupid mood this a.m.

LMAO. My mood isn't much different. I have to go to work and I just cannot get with it. I feel like I got done with work was going to get a couple days off, blinked and it was over. My sleep is entirely messed up and so wiped that I set my alarm and laid back down for an hour even though I hate having only a short time before work I was desperate for sleep. Then Frank attacked Snit to no end and that was the end of that. Told him much as I love him he is going to be rehomed if he does NOT KNOCK IT OFF.

Diener is a wiener and here is this woman being attacked and hated by some and she doesn't run, turn tail, step down or cower like the wiener. Sorry. And Lord knows the attacks on her that come her way even in this ahem well behaved place.

Never knew a Miranda but then that's because I never met one plus have never been in trouble so that might explain it. Known more than a few Amandas though.

Is that a similar stupid enough mood for you? Lol. I NEED to get with it and have absolutely no oomph at all. Not sure how I'm going to do it.