LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

Military Service of RA.



Because of the military suicide, I said previously that I wondered if he had been in the military. Nine years service - 89 to 98. I wonder if he served in Iraq?

I am doing a screenshot too in case the tweet disappears.


View attachment 21976

He was in the Guard it appeared. Does this mean he served overseas at all? Also what is the top right toward bottom of list 2032 date? When he could draw if enough points, etc.?

 

[GrandmaBear]

You said the 44 pings didnt connect to her phone.

IMO the 4.33 a.m. ping from her phone was an automatic regular function, as was explained upthread in my Quora post. It wasn't someone accessing or pinging it.

Why would someone take and then return the phone? If they did then the location of that phone would be known by those regular pings.

I don't think he even knew she had a phone. She surreptitiously recorded the BG video and audio and hid the phone under her shoe when he made them disrobe IMO. The phone recording was probably the last thing the phone did before the battery died. He may have seen the phone but would have been stupid to take it with him.

I too am open to and not convinced he knew she had the phone. If he had and had taken it or saw her recording even, he CERTAINLY would never have returned it. That's ludicrous to me. For all the reasons stated in a couple other previous posts and more than I can state actually. I too did some quick searches and I never saw I don't think your Quora thing but had done my own and I thought so and when a phone powers down or goes off it sends a final "handshake" so to speak. IT sends it, not one comes in to it. That fits to me what it was.

I do think some battery would have been used, a quick video, a Snapchat but not a ton of things done with it that we are aware of. A pic of Abby, the video of the perp. She was smart enough and with wits that just knew this wasn't good as he came towards them that I can also see her silencing it if she got a second, hiding it, and so on. Even claiming to him if he DID see it that she lost it as the ran down the hill and so on. Libby was the smart cookie not the perp/RA. GEE that irks me if that isn't realized by all. I'll leave that there.

IF he knew of it and was even thinking of such and not just focused on his sick intent and crime, AND if he thought to control it or take it, he certainly would NEVER have BROUGHT IT BACK. Huh?? IF any brain cells AT ALL. If he found he still had it and panicked, he could have done ANY SMARTER THING THAN return to the scene and leave it to be found. I don't mean to diss anyon but this just doesn't gel.

Libby may have conserved battery, turned off of course recording so if he did find, he wouldn't know of and so on.

I haven't read the defense's filing on the phone stuff but I seriously doubt it affects the timeline. I like you am done getting time in life back over reading more of their stuff although I DID read the request for inmate depositions tonight so not like I don't try in some fairness AND I listen to summaries of ALL filings by Tom. And honestly I'll take his unbiased full coverage of it than things here where I'd say most of us have bias or opinions one way or the other. Quite obviously no, lol?

Yes Daybell covered the phone thing recently awesomely and it was by F B I took wasn't it and CAST and top experts? You know today I heard with Suzanne's autopsy that took so many months Quantico F B I consulted on and helped see to it all, top experts and no one can say it was just Chaffee County or even CBI and so on. And she yielded the BAM cocktail. I can't recall with many cases heated right now and my tired by all of hearing I am sure mantra of no time but do we know is Carroll County prosecution/NM using F B I with any of the phone records as an expert?

You haven't updated lately on GoFundMe lol. We do know now though there is plenty of money for experts. We will see who defense uses and how far they have to fly.

Again, I could tell quite the story about such with our case. Does IN follow the Daubert standard? WI does. When it comes to experts? Personally I think the defense experts could have been ruled out in ours because of boy and including some ethics big time stuff in their past, BIG TIME, but prosecution and judge let them pass (being nice?) but it did not help them for those very reasons and more... I've seen no mention of a Daubert hearing re experts though here in this case.

Maybe Roundpeg or Olenna might know. Not being sarcastic, this is a standard in many a state based on the US standard, etc. Does IN go by Daubert with judge approving experts?

 

[GrandmaBear]

- The Quorum article addresses a phone that is on but is not in use. The 44 forced pings were not acknowledged, which means the phone targeted (Libby's) was not on, or was out of range. And the ISP wrote a report interpreting these two options being the status of Libby's phone. It was either not functioning (or off), or it was out of range.

- " the phone was accessed and connected with the cell phone tower at 4:33 a.m. on February 14, 2017. "
We know Libby's phone was connected to the network/tower on the bridge - from her photo history. If the phone never left the network or was never shut down (turned off), why did it need to reconnect?

- Phone can't ping if turned off (by kidnapper, ostensibly). I mean, that would make sense for a 1.5 hour planned murder. Disable victim's locator and SOS ability.

- As to why take and return phone? That's the $1,000 question. But, IMO, the $1,000,000 question is: Who took and who returned the phone?

eta JMHO and Thank you again for reading my earworms.

Do you have any experience with rural areas and small town areas? Not sarcasm. Seriously. Just the bridge where Abby's photo was taken to down the hill could cause it to be searching. My property that I HOPE to get up for sale this week over the years has my phone was always great and my provider but all else who would come like my kids and whoever, had total trouble with signals and service and they were actually with bigger named providers. Still that way. Walk from my barn to the back yard and then five acres back and watch what some phones do. Go down the road 1/4 of a mile and they might get service the kids, if the park and sit still and then not even. I am 1/2 hour from any "city" but less then 10 miles from eight small towns and most of those are within two to three miles. One is on a US highway and has full service. Town of about 1000 but a big traveled through one because of the highway.

I'm no phone expert, I don't think you are or most of us here. and I may not even be talking about what you are. But I'm less than worried with this or excited. It seems more of the same to me by the defense. MOST trials do come down to as they say the battle of the experts. Prosecution has theirs and now the D should be about done with their shopping as Ds do until they find someone who at least won't say what the P experts do and PERHAPs say what they want/need. After all they get paid.

How is it you are so sure he saw or knew of the phone? I'm not. Tresir isn't. Many people through the years in the forums have thought that as she RECORED him. You'd take it and you'd KEEP it you would certainly not return at risk to a crime scene and say here cops, find the phone when you find the bodies would you?

your second to the last sentence seems to be making your taking and returning fact. It is not fact. Just saying...It seemed speculation and your suggestion earlier and now it is kind of STATED as this is what happened...

I haven't read the defense filing and where you say it doesnt' work with the P's timeline. I don't plan to. if you wish to provide an excerpt NOT your opinion but copied and pasted I'd read it but not if it is numerous pages or a novel.

I don't buy it and you haven't said how it doesn't match or what bit doesn't work as Tresir asked. Don't make something legend that isn't please and is just another defense claim that too often seem to be taken as already proven fact.

I know one thing, I am not even going to read Tweets on this case if it isn't covering ALL instead of the sensational, a bias or everything in fair coverage.

Tom wasn't out on attending lol. NEVER EVER said he would but recently had me wondering if it could not be watched live... I don't think he's serious but God I hope he is. If so, I am covered. LOL.

Anyhow up too late and not going to bed yet for how early I have to be up to have some down time in the morning. I want to get to at least Morphew yet tonight. This isn't my only case of interest.

Not sure I am through all here yet, may finish but think I'm close? Either way have a good night one and all. Clock is ticking...

 

[GrandmaBear]

Mostly what's important here is that Libby's phone timeline doesn't match the State's timeline for their theory of the case.
So, I'm mainly looking something the Defense feels is exculpatory and thinking about that.

There more data info to be interpreted from Libby's phone that we are unaware of. Experts will patch together that phone's story and timeline ...
They'll know if that phone was powered down and when. If later powered up and when.

I also think it makes sense for a kidnapper/murderer to control any phones the victims had. If we accept that the kidnapper/murder came prepared to randomly select L & A ... the kidnapper/killer would have no way to know if there were others in the area that would come looking for them, or attempt to reach them by phone. They'd get that phone and control it. I think it's possible that someone involved returned the phone to the bodies - where it then pinged. (Otherwise - it would have pinged sooner, had it been there sooner.) Why the need to return it? Maybe they'd lost track of where it was. Maybe they thought about destroying it but decided it was better to leave it with the victims. Who knows; but I assume at some point the killer(s) were not exactly thinking straight.

There's evidence that the body's were staged ... that opens up the question of timing of staging, timing of placement of the phone, by whom. All stuff we can't know. JMHO

There's no proof it was taken, NOR returned. And sure the heck is no evidence it was "placed" at a certain time and by some "whom". Again just saying these are not facts. Not known facts anyhow.

Again the killer would be stupid, asinine, lost his mind to return the phone and go back to the crime scene. WHY, give me one reason would he WANT her phone found?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Which bit doesn't match? I must have missed that. I believe RA wasn't even aware she had a phone. Even if he was aware, he would have been stupid to take it as it acts as a tracking device. If he did take it, he would have been even more stupid to return it IMO.

Missed it too. And also unsure RA knew. Could be either. And yes, he'd be stupid to take it if off maybe not, to return it a top stupid criminal and to return even dumber and to leave it for cops, the dumbest yet. I'm not trying to diss anyone, I think they may be just busy and I get that (boy do I) and haven't thought that through. Makes no sense at all. and it won't to any juror with logic either. Imo.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The timeline of the phone does not match the State's timeline for their case against RA as explained in the filing.

Turn any phone off (it's then disabled) and it acts like NOTHING, which would be the point of taking Libby's phone.

In 2017, I'd argue the killer (who's not stupid, clearly planned w/ ties, knife, gun, even left his dna home) would demand/search for and disable their comms.

I agree powering up the phone before placing it ... is a risk. But If your preference was to have the bodies found as staged, makes sense. JMHO

SOOOO taking the phone and turning it off is no risk and so sure, why not. Then why worry from that point on. But you do and you RETURN IT TO BE FOUND? Go back to the crime scene? Take that chance? WANT LE TO FIND IT? WHY?? Or to see or find you for that matter. Did the perp KNOW no one was out there, the search ended or nothing was watched, etc.? Makes NO SENSE.

And yeah powering up the phone would be risky and dumb as well.

the ping was from powering down imo.

But you know what, we will start to know some things in about eight days. Assuming someone good reports as much as they can and can tweet and focus fast and aren't looking for one side and not all. I can tell you right now if I had the way or means I'd attend but it kind of has been made where you can't even be guaranteed with that. Again I'd have to reread it. No overflow room or anything is there? And NO I do not agree with her on that one.

Do you think whoever took her phone charged it back up as well? Just curious. And in case some newbie reads here in the future, I am going to say again, there is no evidence ANYONE took or returned her phone, so I am not stating it as fact and I don't buy into it.

I know many of us differ but starting to see by all of us now that we have this no recording shared, etc. announcement WHO we can watch feeds from or will now decide if attending or not and will be quality coverage HOPEFULLY on all fronts so that we can at least follow it that way. I think we all WANT that don't we? And would agree? Do you know of any yet? Who will you be watching tweeting all day? Or will you be busy? I've have to do it as usual at night, before work, some on rare day off. I don't know if I am going to make Morphew tonight. Just had a few things I wanted to say there. Not new news or anything. Just some thoughts. This one is big to me but that's my top case or was until it cooled without much new on it. Now it is heated up again. I also haven't touched Daybell tonight but of course that's a live trial SHOWN LIVE (GULL LISTEN! Lol) and it is the weekend so no new testimony today or tomorrow anyhow but some recaps and such there are. Won't get to. TOnight anyhow. Oh God, it's morning.

So let's see who will now announce attending and tweeting but again I don't think they are guaranteed seats are they? AGain I'd have to reread it.

 

[Tresir]

what military suicide are you talking of that relates to RA? Sorry. Confused or just drawing a blank.

Westerman's leaker friend RF. GWTP LOL.

ETA the 2032 date top right is probably his retirement projection when he is age 60.

 

[GrandmaBear]

It is also odd that the state took so long to provide this information to the defense.

if that isn't their claim. wouldn't be the first time they hadn't went through all and requested something it was said to be provided to them nicely three times over. and maybe it is fact, don't know. didn't see the claim, their evidence it was not in their ton of discovery provided and so on. If so, go ahead and correct me. I'm really not sure why so many assume one sided filings are like a full blown both sided trial.

Your case is on in REad and I find it interesting that with the STate side up no one is sharing all the evidence being shown there, I feel you are just awaiting the defense side and don't want the other side told or shared? Seriously. What did the victim's brother or SIL say? Or is it sister and BIL? I think the first? Who else has been up? Overall were they good and had damning stuff? Or not?

Same in this case, it has been defense stuff trying the case in the public eye without it being tried. Whoever I watch covering it I want a fair show of all sides to go by. LIKE a fair juror would.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Mitch Westerman's leaker friend RF. GWTP LOL.

I figured you meant him as only suicide I know of in this case. And you are going to make me ask what GWTP means aren't you??? Okay I'm asking! Lol. GIVE ME CREDIT though I did a quick search and NOTHING came up for this one. So I looked for self before asking.

BUT how is it what I am missing you connected RA to military based on leaker friend??? Are you saying RA personally knew leaker friend of defense??? That's the part, the skip you didn't have in your post. Why would that guy make you think of RA being in the military....?

 

[Tresir]

I figured you meant him as only suicide I know of in this case. And you are going to make me ask what GWTP means aren't you??? Okay I'm asking! Lol. GIVE ME CREDIT though I did a quick search and NOTHING came up for this one. So I looked for self before asking.

BUT how is it what I am missing you connected RA to military based on leaker friend??? Are you saying RA personally knew leaker friend of defense??? That's the part, the skip you didn't have in your post. Why would that guy make you think of RA being in the military....?

Get with the program. GWTP.

I first mentioned the possibility of him being in the military around the time of the military suicide.

Because it just made sense to me that they maybe knew him from being in the military or National Guard together, maybe he was their sergeant and they were trying to help him by leaking stuff. It was just a hunch I had. We don't know much about him except for his CVS background.

 

[Tresir]

Just a bit of info about getting phone data. This was from the previous prosecutor Ives, that I posted upthread.

"Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable."

We also recently heard about the difficulty getting data from Google in the Daybell case. They had 12 phones that they requested the data for but Google said that was too many. So they went back and requested 10. Google then provided it. This is when they were looking for two missing children.

So this is not easy to obtain this cell phone data and then has to be interpreted.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Get with the program. GWTP.

I first mentioned the possibility of him being in the military around the time of the military suicide.

Because it just made sense to me that they maybe knew him from being in the Indiana National Guard together, maybe he was their sergeant and they were trying to help him by leaking stuff. It was just a hunch I had. We don't know much about him except for his CVS background.

Believe me or not when I entered all those letters only acronyms without the G came up and it was all some drug or some such. Okay the program lol.

I'm still not seeing the connection from RA to suicide guy. I see it with the attorneys. RA did not appoint these attorneys nor know the leaker suicide guy did he? I'm wondering if where that leap comes from? Or are you saying RA may have turned attorneys onto suicide guy as one to leak to?

Am I making sense? Do you see what I mean? I get the defense, MW, then suicide guy chain. But this is RA's military record. Is there some evidence or reason you think HE knew either his defense attorneys, MW or suicide guy before in some guard or military capacity?

 

[Tresir]

Hey @Olenna, I just noticed you said this. Where did you get the ties from?

"In 2017, I'd argue the killer (who's not stupid, clearly planned w/ ties, knife, gun, even left his dna home) would demand/search for and disable their comms."

 

[Tresir]

Believe me or not when I entered all those letters only acronyms without the G came up and it was all some drug or some such. Okay the program lol.

I'm still not seeing the connection from RA to suicide guy. I see it with the attorneys. RA did not appoint these attorneys nor know the leaker suicide guy did he? I'm wondering if where that leap comes from? Or are you saying RA may have turned attorneys onto suicide guy as one to leak to?

Am I making sense? Do you see what I mean? I get the defense, MW, then suicide guy chain. But this is RA's military record. Is there some evidence or reason you think HE knew either his defense attorneys, MW or suicide guy before in some guard or military capacity?

Yeah I see what you're saying. But this guy westerman is a bit of a free agent and so he is the link I think. He could be connected to several attorneys for all we know. The military suicide is purely what made me wonder if there was a military connection.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Just a bit of info about getting phone data. This was from the previous prosecutor Ives, that I posted upthread.

"Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable."

We also recently heard about the difficulty getting data from Google in the Daybell case. They had 12 phones that they requested the data for but Google said that was too many. So they went back and requested 10. Google then provided it. This is when they were looking for two missing children.

So this is not easy to obtain this cell phone data and then has to be interpreted.

Yeah that in Daybell still bothers me. GOOGLE can tell them well no, maybe try 8 or 10 instead of 12... This is a multiple murder case, world known, certainly nationally know. I suppose Google and Amazon, FB, WM those places that run the world I guess-- maybe Amazon told them well we can give you info about the malachite rings and wedding clothes but not all the other sh*t Lori purchased with Charles credit card and told LE to dial it back? I am making that up but it would be the same thing they claimed Google did. Sarcasm.

It was funny but so not with Google because of any place has more info on everyone and everything they do it would be "them"

I am a huge advocate and believer in privacy. Not because I have anything to hide but my life is my life. I don't like strangers knocking on my door nor should I have to deal with it. I don't like people popping in. I don't like my own children hopping on my phone or computer without asking. Again not a single thing to hide, but it is my life. If I have a day off and want to be home alone and get some real time off, I don't like the dam*Ed apt complex thinking everyone just can drop everything or not need water because well they decide they have to with no notice shut it off (hiding and fixing problems) and all of a sudden my only day to do laundry and needing five or more ways of work clothes grrrr.

Sidetracking. I think we have a right to privacy and SHOULD. HOWEVER, when I am outside of my own residence I expect I don't have any or shouldn't count on it. Cameras, public, anything, I left home, you have no right to expect privacy whether shopping, driving, you name it. And I don't disagree with that. I do not like all practices with internet, apps, phones, computers, etc. where you'd like your privacy but you'd have to know every gimmick and bunch of b.s and stays up on every app every day of your life and we all know it so LIKEWISE I don't expect that all is private if I am on a cell phone, computer, searching Google, etc. Again though I have nothing to hide any stranger would be interested in.

We all know or should know this is the case by now, a new computer, an update, a new app can download an extension, turn your location on that was off, camera too, etc. or come defaulted like that with what you don't want on ON.

So my long-winded tired point IS it's absolutely ironic and hypocritical of Google, or any of the big ones to uhm can't give info even with a warrant or rule he show AND if a child is missing and immediacy is needed and it is LE them WTH? Are they worried about being sued lol? These kazillion dollar businesses? Well I'm sure a few of them wouldn't want to lose their pedophiles or upset any user either... Dropbox for instance.

Back to your point and your post, cell phone data and things from like Google, cell companies, FB is another are the things that take forever in investigations, FOREVER. Longer by far than autopsies and toxicology. They just I guess think they are worldwide, powerful, don't have to respond to little local LE or even big city LE.

Some here may not know about that b.s. just said in Daybell. Not everyone does any other cases but yeah, that was b.s. I would have gotten the ten and then asked for the two more separately.

I mean is LE going to sue some multikazillion dollar corporation? And would they care? Who really rules... Bigger yet is why do they not care? Again a multikazillion corp.

anyhow beyond where I need to set alarms and go to bed. It's after 2, I have to work at 10 and I like to be up three to four hours before I have to leave. Just to have down time and take my time. That leaves what I keep doing to myself maybe 3 or 4 hours sleep if I go right now and can fall asleep right away. Or I sleep longer and have no down time to speak of before work. And I don't like that either.

I'm not concerned about this phone stuff a bit. If there is real reason to be guess we will find out. I do NOT think it was taken and then put back. I can't even grasp that thought.

There willl be more things right up to trial. It's not a surprise and I guess why I don't have much reaction. Typical. Any prosecution filings? For some reason aren't always shared.

Or responses? I think they've got their main ones in for decisions and I think have responded to what necessary and would only have to to the new D ones if any reason to.

I know my subject is a bit from it but they needed info on these MINOR KIDS here. NOT adults. Parents should be able to get it. In Daybell, missing MINOR KIDS and then MURDERS but no answer from Google and then had to all and finally reached someone and too many??? What is on he other phones LE wanted info on??

Good night all. Or morning I should say. Wiped.

 

[Tresir]

Did another search and this tweet from the same source says RF and MW were Air National Guard. So there's the MIL connection. Good night/morning all.

Edited to correct RA to RF.




Plus a SS in case it disappears.

 

[Tresir]

Update re RA crowd funding. 40k of 45k raised so far. Deadline 10th May.

Experts for Richard Allen

This is the official expert expense fund for Richard Allen. Richard Allen was once employed as a licensed pharmacy technician at the CVS in Delphi, IN.&nbs

www.payit2.com

 

[Tresir]

Damaging statements made 30 times according to MS and Fox news. So up from 5 now.

"Cain said her sources have told her that Allen has made incriminating statements to some 30 people during his time in jail."

Delphi murders: Man charged with killing 2 girls is 'his own worst enemy,' expert says

Delphia, Indiana, murders suspect Richard Allen is set to stand trial this month, but journalist Áine Cain says Allen "has been his own worst enemy" due to incriminating statements.

www.foxnews.com

"Richard Allen has been his own worst enemy throughout this process. We've learned through multiple filings that he's made incriminating or damaging statements to what sounds like around 30 people – inmates, prison guards, police officers, family members – about this [crime], and I think that is going to severely tamper him at trial," journalist Áine Cain, who co-hosts "The Murder Sheet" podcast with Indiana-based attorney Kevin Greenlee, told Fox News Digital.

Cain said the alleged incriminating statements came either from an innocent man who is mentally unsound, which his defense team would have to prove, or they came from a guilty man who is trying to get something off his chest.


ETA my opinion - there is another option, he could be guilty and mentally unsound.

Have to fly - back later.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Hey @Olenna, I just noticed you said this. Where did you get the ties from?

"In 2017, I'd argue the killer (who's not stupid, clearly planned w/ ties, knife, gun, even left his dna home) would demand/search for and disable their comms."

I'd also say anyone who took a phone of the victims back to the scene is stupid. As is one who placed himself at the scene in the same clothing as the killer and so on. Sorry but I just don't see where any killer (9 out of ten who premeditate) bring a weapon with is smart because they did, or not stupid. Or losin a bullet. Admitting to owning the gun and hemming self in about no one else ever using and so on. Talking to LE without an attorney....

Yeah what is she talking about? Cable/zip ties? Pieces of rope? Shoelaces? News to me.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yeah I see what you're saying. But this guy westerman is a bit of a free agent and so he is the link I think. He could be connected to several attorneys for all we know. The military suicide is purely what made me wonder if there was a military connection.

You may see what I'm saying but I still don't get what you are saying. Are you saying dead guy and RA knew each other? PRIOR? I see no reason to think that. I"m still just lost at that leap.

That record really didn't show much that mattered did it, other than years and retirement points? I didn't see much else. My best friend's hub was in the guard for decades and never spent a day overseas by the way. He died fairly young unexpectedly in an accident, was awful. He was also one of my brother's best friends. So just saying that RA may have never went anywhere overseas and for that matter even far from home.

Also do you mean something specific by the term "military suicide".