LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

To clarify - I was hopeful (and expressed as much at the beginning of my discussion) - that folks here would join (if they were interested) in re-thinking timelines by following Libby's phone timeline. As a speculative exercise.

Appreciated how everyone gave it some thought, shared references and their perspectives. Thanks to all!

Here's to really learning the story of Libby's phone at trial. IMO, it's the motherload of information, the closest thing we have to a witness. Not a day goes by I don't think of Libby's presence of mind switching from care-free to self-protective instinct under great stress; I admire both of these young ladies.

JMHO

Really learning all about her phone is going to depend on whether one believes I'd guess the prosecution expert or the defense expert and what they believe about the records when hearing all such. I am sure some will still be divided although what I've seen of defense experts in MANY trials, well, let's just say I'd give a good bet on whose will be best. So no answer on Daubert? Do you know if IN courts follow Daubert and have Daubert hearings? Just wondering--it is the standard for qualifying or disqualifying experts.

Appreciate the remarks about the victims--I admire them as well and Libby's quick thinking was unbelievable. They need to be mentioned a bit more once in awhile here imo by all of us. Not all is about RA. It's how every case becomes though, all about the perp/defendant. Very hard on families imo. Just more insult to injury or injury on injury however one wants to look at it.

I don't see the defense stuff about the phone as big but then you are well aware I think as all are that I don't take defense filings as determined facts. I'll know more about what was said in that one soon as Tom is covering all the filings and am listening but not sure how late I will be up and he has a lot to cover and a long video. I need to shower, should get more than four hours sleep or three but am not smart that way typically. Paid for it today though. It was our busiest day of 2024 so far and nonstop. Brutal 11 hour day. I prefer busy but or even a breath taken in between at all and three short breaks hours apart. All you guys here and in other threads didn't give me much to read on break though. I was disappointed. Couple of posts about it all day.

Anywho, we need to find a variety of attendees and tweeters. Or someone here needs to take accrued vacation time and attend and inform us. I would but can't, I don't have enough of it for the length of trial lol. IF this fails to go off on top of anyone derails it, I can already see the fall out. It's TIME.

Kind of a jumping off tired post covering a couple of thoughts.

We are down to a week tomorrow....

I want to watch TOm but need to get in the shower but my feet and body are saying do NOT make me GET UP AGAIN.

Anyhow, have a good one to all, may respond to the couple of other posts, we will see if I manage.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yeah I see what you're saying. But this guy westerman is a bit of a free agent and so he is the link I think. He could be connected to several attorneys for all we know. The military suicide is purely what made me wonder if there was a military connection.

Okay let me separate just this one subject/question. WHAT is a military suicide? Do you mean they suicided on military land, barracks, posts, etc.? Or are you using that term to just to anyone who was every in the military who committed suicide even if it wasnt' about the military or to with the military? No offense but that alone confuses/d to me what you mean by all of it. This suicide was due apparently to a LEAK in a case that is not a military tribunal case. So your reference to military suicide throws me. Just want to understand what you mean by it?

 

[GrandmaBear]

the 1st Franks Memo reports yellow line at crime scene. - my recollection.

JMHO

So not like a yellow nylon rope but more like a plastic coated wire or metal line/cable, etc.... Is your recall? Or pure plastic. Think weed eater type of reel/line. Or think the kind of line on most dog leases or ties these days that often have wire in them.

I of course will wait on what is fact as as almost all, it comes from one side.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I believe RF was active military when he committed suicide, that's all I meant by that. RF and MW (the leaker) were previously in the Air National Guard together. Presumably RF went in the military full time at some point but MW didnt. We have today seen RA's military record. I don't know if that was National Guard or full active duty service or what or anything more about him, only what I have posted. So I don't know if he or the other two ever went overseas. Its probably likely RF went overseas as he appeared to be in the full military. Also, maybe the Air National Guard are more likely to get called up and go overseas in a war like Iraq or Afghanistan, but just guessing here. At the very least it is a mighty big coincidence IMO and is probably why nobody has discussed the suicide in the press or YouTube or wherever.

I noticed right off that Rick was Army National Guard. When I read the page of record you shared. I had to leave today but did read ahead on break and see now you have realized that. Before that I was entirely confused with Air National Guard being talked of when he was Army. I mentioned my friend's husband and how he never went overseas as a comparison because he was Army National Guard like Rick. Then no offense you were referring to RA when you meant the suicide guy in that one post and I was ENTIRELY lost on what you were thinking. I'm thinking since reading newer breaks you can see why somewhat? I doubt any of them came together in guard time being army and air. Also the court appointed B & R, Rick didn't go find them. And knew MW prior so the odds of RA having some connection to all these prior I don't quite follow.

National Guard mostly serve as help in our country imo. I'm no expert but I'm sure they could volunteer to go overseas or even list up to full time, they are reserve in many cases and it's a weekend thing for many once a month. They help in disasters often in their own states and will go to others to help. Not sure it's required though, just their one weekend a month always and maybe an annual one or some such.

Air National Guard I am less familiar with but it wouldn't be the same I'm sure. Maybe dropping chemical or water to put out wild fires and things like that.

Anyhow, the first thing I read on that record was that he was not like enlisted in the army full force but was a Guard, Army National Guard. Then the Air Guard stuff started and I had to leave for work lol.

I KIND of get what you were thinking or maybe wondering or trying to put together but I don't see it. They don't come from the same towns, weren't in the same branch and so on and how is it Rick would have ended up with B & R who knew MW etc. and RA did too and they said hey let's use him for this? I guess all I mean is do you think Rick's been online all these years talking to the likes of these men and some YT chain that wanted to help him? Like before arrest even? Do you get kind of what I am saying here?

I wasn't following which I guess sure didnt' help but if anything like this could be true, they are all in HUGE trouble. I'm trying to think how to put it simply as I don't have the right words to explain either.

So it would go like this? Gull appoints B & R to represent RA. RA knows the two prior somehow or doesn't are you thinking but they know MW and the suicide guy and SO DOES RICK luckily? And then it's like wow, they all know the same guys who will help RA and leak for him, etc.? Yet B & R are only on to begin with because the judge appointed them. I'm truly just trying to see if this is what you are saying or thinking and explain why I find it doubtful or I still just don't get what you mean.

And now that it is air and army National Guard, that also confused.

I'm only trying to get it clear as I may still not have it clear myself what you think here. Maybe though you've seen shows or something I haven't but for me the inteest by most with RA's military records would be just like employment records--to see any discipline, if fired, if written up, if dishonrably discharged, did he have an questionable incidents or cimes and so on. Where he was or what he was doing in what years and so on.

I don't know how it works but if RA knew any of these leakers or suicide guy that sure the heck should be disclosed. Or if he ever knew B & R prior either. Or Gull. And so on.

Probably not making sense, just trying to explain my confusion and trying to see what you thought and if anything ito it.

I'm going to bet Rick was a once a month weekend Guard through his entire part in it. That's what my friend's husband was, his brother-in-law many do this. It is a way to be in and earn towards some benefits but as a very part time stay home member of the Guard. I do think he went on a few things and helped or they were sent like sandbagging a flooding river in our own state, or on the border with MN. I also think they have to do an annual training or something as well. That's Army. I'd assume Air is the same but they woudln't be together imo.

Yeah we need this case tried lol. We are all getting whatever I think. I coiudn't follow at all. Scary thing is i'm not sure after it is tried a lot of questions and many of this same won't still exist and all won't be answered. I sure hope it does to a great degree.

I know maybe the above didn't make sense but you weren't to me either and so a lot of confusion. Not sure if you know this but they are called the reserves also. And note it's "national" guard. They help at home. Not saying they coudn't enlist to full or be called up if on one left. Again no expert. Just know people well whose husbands, brother in laws etc. did such for years as a sidelin and smart move and some extra income and more.

And i'll be honest, i'm not sure I knew we had an Air National Guard. And I'm not talking fighter pilots lol.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No - R in this tweet is the suicidee RF. I did a mistype in my hurry. It should be RF. I'll do a correction to my post. Apologies all.

Read posts earlier at works so before reading them here already replied to some of these later ones in earlier replies. I keep up better than but may seem like huh, I hadn't gotten this sfar to this post yet but I had already seen it today. The RA thing in that post lol had me where I could not understand whatsoever. Thought I was understand you but then it was RA instead of the suicide guy (sorry always forget his initials and name so I refer to him that way so clear who I mean).

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think RA was National Guard. It seems like we knew this, but I can't remember when it surfaced. I'll do a search.

and the one most of us know of the most, Army National Guard. As now covered today as I saw.

 

[GrandmaBear]

So a person is sound who eats poop and discovery paperwork? We already know his wife had to take him to see someone in the middle of the night one time after calling LE when he was intoxicated so there are a few signs he could be a sandwich short of a picnic IMO.

I'm not taking anything here as fact or if it is the reasons truly behind such.

Also it does not mean he was when he committed these murders nor that he is as he stands trial. There's a lot of ifs here.

I take little as fact in this case that is the public have.

I imagine then there is video of this right that we won't see thank God but the jury would i'd assume.

The time his wife had to take him to someone every time I read of the incident in my opinion they were done a favor and he was simply a nasty out of control drunk and this is how they got out of a charge. And they let them imo. Take him to the hospital, maybe it went or she knew, and maybe they said, we've never had a problem with you two before, we will let this go but we have to take someone in (domestic) or... I don't look at that incident as anything other than that. I sure don't relate it to these nowadays claims. They both were drinkers and bar flies. One of the only locals that ever said a thing was the local bar owner when he was arrested.

Not arguing, we simply don't see this one the same. And no matter what, his attorneys are not pleading insanity, they simply try to use mental health when convenient. So does RA imo.

This man was married for decades, held a job, raised a daughter, owned a home and one drunken call can be cited or made about him. There's no mental health history here. Imo. And if there was by now it would be a huge use and used in this case.

I said before way back, jmo, I see him like I see CB in LISK. He's a SNAKE living a fairy normal life but it isn't who they are inside. And I don't mean that means they are insane. They know EXACTLy what they are doing and fully choose to. I could give countless examples. Again jmo.

Interesting isn't it both wives are standing by both men...What is I that shows of their conniving and fooling natures (RA and CB)...

Anyhow I am taking a breath, who doesn't need one, I know I do, we are seven days. I'd like to wonder how and if we will get full and fair coverage of this case and through WHO? Because this point, the phone and most others are moot unless we hear more than a one sided version and this case has had not even real news fair and balanced imo. They like sensational after all...

If only there was a Nate there.

 

[Tresir]

Okay let me separate just this one subject/question. WHAT is a military suicide? Do you mean they suicided on military land, barracks, posts, etc.? Or are you using that term to just to anyone who was every in the military who committed suicide even if it wasnt' about the military or to with the military? No offense but that alone confuses/d to me what you mean by all of it. This suicide was due apparently to a LEAK in a case that is not a military tribunal case. So your reference to military suicide throws me. Just want to understand what you mean by it?

I just mean the guy RF in this case who was active military when he committed suicide after being visited and questioned by Holeman. Why that has not been investigated is beyond me.

 

[Tresir]

I'm not taking anything here as fact or if it is the reasons truly behind such.

Also it does not mean he was when he committed these murders nor that he is as he stands trial. There's a lot of ifs here.

I take little as fact in this case that is the public have.

I imagine then there is video of this right that we won't see thank God but the jury would i'd assume.

The time his wife had to take him to someone every time I read of the incident in my opinion they were done a favor and he was simply a nasty out of control drunk and this is how they got out of a charge. And they let them imo. Take him to the hospital, maybe it went or she knew, and maybe they said, we've never had a problem with you two before, we will let this go but we have to take someone in (domestic) or... I don't look at that incident as anything other than that. I sure don't relate it to these nowadays claims. They both were drinkers and bar flies. One of the only locals that ever said a thing was the local bar owner when he was arrested.

Not arguing, we simply don't see this one the same. And no matter what, his attorneys are not pleading insanity, they simply try to use mental health when convenient. So does RA imo.

This man was married for decades, held a job, raised a daughter, owned a home and one drunken call can be cited or made about him. There's no mental health history here. Imo. And if there was by now it would be a huge use and used in this case.

I said before way back, jmo, I see him like I see CB in LISK. He's a SNAKE living a fairy normal life but it isn't who they are inside. And I don't mean that means they are insane. They know EXACTLy what they are doing and fully choose to. I could give countless examples. Again jmo.

Interesting isn't it both wives are standing by both men...What is I that shows of their conniving and fooling natures (RA and CB)...

Anyhow I am taking a breath, who doesn't need one, I know I do, we are seven days. I'd like to wonder how and if we will get full and fair coverage of this case and through WHO? Because this point, the phone and most others are moot unless we hear more than a one sided version and this case has had not even real news fair and balanced imo. They like sensational after all...

If only there was a Nate there.

Is he sane though? Is anyone sane who kidnaps two young girls and murders them with such brutality, like he did, then just goes back to normal life, working in CVS and playing pool in his local bar while all hell breaks loose in his community. Can any of us explain it? I sure cannot.

 

[Tresir]

I noticed right off that Rick was Army National Guard. When I read the page of record you shared. I had to leave today but did read ahead on break and see now you have realized that. Before that I was entirely confused with Air National Guard being talked of when he was Army. I mentioned my friend's husband and how he never went overseas as a comparison because he was Army National Guard like Rick. Then no offense you were referring to RA when you meant the suicide guy in that one post and I was ENTIRELY lost on what you were thinking. I'm thinking since reading newer breaks you can see why somewhat? I doubt any of them came together in guard time being army and air. Also the court appointed B & R, Rick didn't go find them. And knew MW prior so the odds of RA having some connection to all these prior I don't quite follow.

National Guard mostly serve as help in our country imo. I'm no expert but I'm sure they could volunteer to go overseas or even list up to full time, they are reserve in many cases and it's a weekend thing for many once a month. They help in disasters often in their own states and will go to others to help. Not sure it's required though, just their one weekend a month always and maybe an annual one or some such.

Air National Guard I am less familiar with but it wouldn't be the same I'm sure. Maybe dropping chemical or water to put out wild fires and things like that.

Anyhow, the first thing I read on that record was that he was not like enlisted in the army full force but was a Guard, Army National Guard. Then the Air Guard stuff started and I had to leave for work lol.

I KIND of get what you were thinking or maybe wondering or trying to put together but I don't see it. They don't come from the same towns, weren't in the same branch and so on and how is it Rick would have ended up with B & R who knew MW etc. and RA did too and they said hey let's use him for this? I guess all I mean is do you think Rick's been online all these years talking to the likes of these men and some YT chain that wanted to help him? Like before arrest even? Do you get kind of what I am saying here?

I wasn't following which I guess sure didnt' help but if anything like this could be true, they are all in HUGE trouble. I'm trying to think how to put it simply as I don't have the right words to explain either.

So it would go like this? Gull appoints B & R to represent RA. RA knows the two prior somehow or doesn't are you thinking but they know MW and the suicide guy and SO DOES RICK luckily? And then it's like wow, they all know the same guys who will help RA and leak for him, etc.? Yet B & R are only on to begin with because the judge appointed them. I'm truly just trying to see if this is what you are saying or thinking and explain why I find it doubtful or I still just don't get what you mean.

And now that it is air and army National Guard, that also confused.

I'm only trying to get it clear as I may still not have it clear myself what you think here. Maybe though you've seen shows or something I haven't but for me the inteest by most with RA's military records would be just like employment records--to see any discipline, if fired, if written up, if dishonrably discharged, did he have an questionable incidents or cimes and so on. Where he was or what he was doing in what years and so on.

I don't know how it works but if RA knew any of these leakers or suicide guy that sure the heck should be disclosed. Or if he ever knew B & R prior either. Or Gull. And so on.

Probably not making sense, just trying to explain my confusion and trying to see what you thought and if anything ito it.

I'm going to bet Rick was a once a month weekend Guard through his entire part in it. That's what my friend's husband was, his brother-in-law many do this. It is a way to be in and earn towards some benefits but as a very part time stay home member of the Guard. I do think he went on a few things and helped or they were sent like sandbagging a flooding river in our own state, or on the border with MN. I also think they have to do an annual training or something as well. That's Army. I'd assume Air is the same but they woudln't be together imo.

Yeah we need this case tried lol. We are all getting whatever I think. I coiudn't follow at all. Scary thing is i'm not sure after it is tried a lot of questions and many of this same won't still exist and all won't be answered. I sure hope it does to a great degree.

I know maybe the above didn't make sense but you weren't to me either and so a lot of confusion. Not sure if you know this but they are called the reserves also. And note it's "national" guard. They help at home. Not saying they coudn't enlist to full or be called up if on one left. Again no expert. Just know people well whose husbands, brother in laws etc. did such for years as a sidelin and smart move and some extra income and more.

And i'll be honest, i'm not sure I knew we had an Air National Guard. And I'm not talking fighter pilots lol.

I worked with some Reserves in my time working with the US Navy. They would often come to the UK for their two weeks annual training and I sometimes got involved working with them. Once I took three down to a ship visit in Portsmouth docks, for example. Obviously they were Navy National Guard, presumably.

 

[Tresir]

Regarding the trial there are only going to be five seats reserved for media so I guess they will be pool reporters. I don't know how they will select the five either. Does anyone know how they do it?

 

[Tresir]

LInk explaining what is presently going on between the D and P.

Misconduct allegations in Delphi murder case continue less than two weeks before trial

New court filings from Richard Allen's defense team accuse law enforcement and prosecutors of withholding critical evidence.

www.jconline.com

 

[Guess Who]

Really learning all about her phone is going to depend on whether one believes I'd guess the prosecution expert or the defense expert and what they believe about the records when hearing all such. I am sure some will still be divided although what I've seen of defense experts in MANY trials, well, let's just say I'd give a good bet on whose will be best. So no answer on Daubert? Do you know if IN courts follow Daubert and have Daubert hearings? Just wondering--it is the standard for qualifying or disqualifying experts.

Appreciate the remarks about the victims--I admire them as well and Libby's quick thinking was unbelievable. They need to be mentioned a bit more once in awhile here imo by all of us. Not all is about RA. It's how every case becomes though, all about the perp/defendant. Very hard on families imo. Just more insult to injury or injury on injury however one wants to look at it.

I don't see the defense stuff about the phone as big but then you are well aware I think as all are that I don't take defense filings as determined facts. I'll know more about what was said in that one soon as Tom is covering all the filings and am listening but not sure how late I will be up and he has a lot to cover and a long video. I need to shower, should get more than four hours sleep or three but am not smart that way typically. Paid for it today though. It was our busiest day of 2024 so far and nonstop. Brutal 11 hour day. I prefer busy but or even a breath taken in between at all and three short breaks hours apart. All you guys here and in other threads didn't give me much to read on break though. I was disappointed. Couple of posts about it all day.

Anywho, we need to find a variety of attendees and tweeters. Or someone here needs to take accrued vacation time and attend and inform us. I would but can't, I don't have enough of it for the length of trial lol. IF this fails to go off on top of anyone derails it, I can already see the fall out. It's TIME.

Kind of a jumping off tired post covering a couple of thoughts.

We are down to a week tomorrow....

I want to watch TOm but need to get in the shower but my feet and body are saying do NOT make me GET UP AGAIN.

Anyhow, have a good one to all, may respond to the couple of other posts, we will see if I manage.

Plus, if anybody took the phone away and then brought it back, why would they leave that video on it?

 

[Guess Who]

Is he sane though? Is anyone sane who kidnaps two young girls and murders them with such brutality, like he did, then just goes back to normal life, working in CVS and playing pool in his local bar while all hell breaks loose in his community. Can any of us explain it? I sure cannot.

We had a serial killer here a long time ago that when he was asked why he didn't plead insane his response was that he thought that it was a given because one has to be insane to purposefully like anybody. He's not wrong.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I just mean the guy RF in this case who was active military when he committed suicide after being visited and questioned by Holeman. Why that has not been investigated is beyond me.

I figured that was the way you meant it but wanted to be sure and be clear that is what you meant. I wasn't sure.

The entire lack of upset over that even by the people in the chain like MW is beyond me. A man KILLED self over these leaks so far as I can see because he was part of it, going to be their fall guy or what....?

I didn't get a long ways through Tom last night and have to be at work early today while having worked til close last night, beyond actually. I did get though to the phone stuff and it's in the GROAN 4th Frank's Memo. WHY that is is beyond me. No wonder the irritation and confusion in this case. A FM has to have specific things proven and now we are wandering off on phone stuff. They are so afield and wandering from what needs to be originally proven and the first one was well all over the place with that too, I don't even get it.

The phone stuff is ONE thing but where they are putting it is another.

Of course their whole thing is to suppress all and any evidence at all, etc., etc. so just throw it where it doesn't belong or insert it and throw stuff until it sticks?

There's a LOT they don't want coming in apparently. Wouldn't be the case if it isn't damning to RA would it...?

Anyhow thank God this is about to be tried. And I sure hope the decision doesn't have the leaking side and the biased coverage failing to have someone informing the public what is really coming out at trial. I'm a bit tired of defense filings being the only thing here. Prosecution has filed as well, of course not as many lol. I think they are up a creek the D with getting the talk with Rick thrown out on Miranda or anything else. Of course I am going by now having heard both sides on it. It's another desperate effort because there is a LOT in this case they are worried about imo against their client.

I guess we shall see. Well actually we won't see sh*t but I think all know what I mean. Nothing there for our viewing... I'm against Gull on that decision.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Is he sane though? Is anyone sane who kidnaps two young girls and murders them with such brutality, like he did, then just goes back to normal life, working in CVS and playing pool in his local bar while all hell breaks loose in his community. Can any of us explain it? I sure cannot.

I think so, they are evil. But sane. But I guess anyone could make this argument on every single soul that commits murder. There must be something different in them than the rest of us who would not cross that threshold but why does that have to be insanity? Why can't it be superiority, lack of morals, evil, what I want or desire goes? And so on? Cunning? Ego filled? Rules don't apply to them? Wanting to outwit others or make the rules and run things themselves? Control? Over someone weaker? Play a game with LE?

WE can't fathom being that way or doing such and then yes standing by a pic of BG while out in your local bar but I don't see that as insanity at all... I see it as ha ha. By the perp. Catch me if you can or do you even all know you dufuses (his thoughts possibly)...

Do you think CB is insane? Or was Bundy?

I just don't see it that way. Of course they are DIFFERENT than us but insane? They all know exactly what they're doing I imo. Not necessarily meaning he is CB or Bundy but just giving some examples. Is Rader insane? He loved to flaunt and taunt.

I think RA has put on one he77uva and act. Well to some I guess...

And on a different note on the same subject, if there was a defense there, they'd be using it. However, that's assuming anyone thinks the D every did their homework to begin with. I don't think there is one though.

And what "is" sane? It's a human concept and created standard. And in many cases it is used as an attempted out which usually fails.

The fact he did this and then played pool and lived life simply makes him more evil to me. Allegedly did, of course.

I don't see him as one bit that he or his D have tried to portray. He comes across as some average everyman, as MOST do, as Rader did. Just the local pharmacist, CVS guy, with a wife, and a kid and lived down the block...

I don't know. I just don't see him the same or the sane thing the same on this one I guess. It's n excuse anyhow. Decision after decision after decision was made and planning done. No murderer like that is comprehensible to how any of us would think nor is it what we'd ever do but because we don't get it doesn't make them insane imo. I lack the words and we aren't talking of probably the exact same things but he knows and knew exactly what he was doing in my opinion. For whatever selfish reasons or fantasies and deciding to indulge such because no one is as important as he is in his normal life act as to what he really is inside. Is Chad Daybell insane? I don't think so, not for a minute.

Don't have it in me right now nor the time nor the words. They're all about them Honestly I don't think I'd find the words anyhow because we can't fathom being that way but they take delight in it and delight in fooling people as well and it's all about them. I don't consider that insane. I see him differently and I don't think most do but no one did with Dennis Rader either. Average man, kids, wife, LOCAL everyman, church going, just your seemingly normal guy... NONdescript, going to work every day, raising kids with a wife...

I could be wrong. But this man is an actor. Probably has been his entire life.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I worked with some Reserves in my time working with the US Navy. They would often come to the UK for their two weeks annual training and I sometimes got involved working with them. Once I took three down to a ship visit in Portsmouth docks, for example. Obviously they were Navy National Guard, presumably.

Yeah I do think any of the branches of Reserves have some annual training. I know the norm is one weekend a month but then I think they have to do one annual thing as well. Can't recall. What we (at least for most imo) hear of most is Army National Guard and I have known tons who have done that. Less familiar with the rest and perhaps they'd involve a bit more with more travel, unsure. Air and navy of course because you are taking to air and taking to ship but it is still like part time and Reserve. No expert just known a ton who did Army National Guard.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Regarding the trial there are only going to be five seats reserved for media so I guess they will be pool reporters. I don't know how they will select the five either. Does anyone know how they do it?

it's in her order which I read but it wasn't the part I was focusing on the most. So don't quote me but seemed to me even their seats are first come first serve every day. I'd HOPE not and maybe media can get together and ensure the same ones get in each day and then share with all. Again, I'm not sure I have that right but didn't seem to me one reporter could count on getting in the next day if in the day before. Maybe Olenna or someone knows more calls better? it IS in Gull's order on it. I may have that all wrong.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Plus, if anybody took the phone away and then brought it back, why would they leave that video on it?

Exactly. Just go take evidence back, incriminate self, risk being caught going back, etc. Makes no sense they'd take back a phone with the video on it or take it back at all or risk it. Just throw it out somewhere then. I mean seriously duh as to being one really one dumb perp then. No? On top of it it has him going back in any hour from when taken to bringing back is DARK. Those of us who knows February in winter states know this. This was all done in daylight hours but the perp goes back in the full pitch of dark to find his way, the bodies and put the phone underneath the girl/s, etc.? I'm sorry to diss it but it iso very far fetched. And powers it on no less and risks that as well as whatever flash light, head light, car and car headlights and parking and walking he must have done AFTER the girls were already KNOWN to be missing and people had been looking for them? I'm sorry but if anything like this is what the D is going to try to sell, I find it pretty ridiculous.

Yeah here's my video on Libby's phone LE. I nicely brought it back for ya to find so you can find me.

This is all again defense claims anyhow. I don't put much store in any of them ever, and of being the total picture--that's been learned well over not just this case but many. I wait for the full pic. To me it just shows the amount of evidence likely that they need to get rid of or counter.

We will see though I guess... Well not "see" but....

 

[GrandmaBear]

We had a serial killer here a long time ago that when he was asked why he didn't plead insane his response was that he thought that it was a given because one has to be insane to purposefully like anybody. He's not wrong.

I am guessing you mean kill anyone?

Is that insane or just thinking one smarter than all, deserving all and not abiding by the average rules of mankind? Meaning you don't murder for instance. I think in some cases it's a bit calm, cool, thought out and collected, not insane. Maybe getting excited when finally in the act but still doesn't mean insane. What some are is simply not "society's norm". And so we call such insane I guess. They just don't follow the rules or the norm. That isn't my definition of sanity or insanity. But yeah kind of what I said that anyone who murders intentionally is insane then right because who else would do such a thing...? If not insane. For me, I think society makes it where they must be so we can rest assured and feel secure in that had to be the reason--insanity. Coudln't be anything else. Not love, nor lust, nor fantasy, nor wanting to get away with something and prove they could, not evil or a myriad of other reasons... EGO for one and self indulgence at the expense of others and their lives.