LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I'm not speculating as to who. I'm focused on this: Is there evidence that is exculpatory? Is there evidence that supports an SODDI theory? Is there a timeline that's more likely that the State's?

All I'm doing is looking at the facts and asking if we follow Libby's phone, what are the most likely scenario(s) that explain Libby's phone records. We don't have the internal logs, but the D and P do. We do have some new info on pings, so ... what scenarios would work? I've been through the scenarios that support the State's theory; the timeline seems too short and forced to me - and that's just MOO.

The D suggesting a later death timeline (death occurring later than the State's timeline that would be exculpatory for RA) ... tells me that the P did not provide the D with forensics that had a tight time of death window; the official window ToD does not exclude an early morning of Feb 14th death. The D suggesting a later timeline also suggests that Libby's phone log records do not exclude an early morning a Feb 14th death.

In other words, the forensic and digital facts give a very wide ToD range.

(I've read so many times that the memorial marker for the victims do not have the same date of death. One is the 13th, one is the14th. No source at the moment - I think we've all read of this anomaly before. Did families get different date-of-death reports from the coroner? Was the time of death estimated at a broad range of 12 hours so it could be either 13th or 14th? Were the victims separated during the abduction, thus different eta's of death?)

Knowing who returned the phone late ... is LE's job. Knowing if the victims may have been separated during the abduction ... also LE's job.

We know that crime scene had a great deal of staging. (Including one victim free of blood and dressed and the other's hands smeared with their friend's blood.) (Per original FM.) There are many crimes where the murderer intentionally leaves staged "messages" at the CS, in an effort to mislead. Or for their own sick satisfaction for notoriety and attention. A cellular phone has been a narrow location tool since early 2000's.

The bottom line (for me) is that ... it appears the options for the timeline are expansive, yet the State has locked itself in to 1.5 hours or less. est.
This is new information and - IMO, it's significant and explains the D's focus on raising doubt on the State's timeline.

JMHO
In regards to dates of death, essentially the family could make that call. Assumed murder date, or date found. It's actually nothing suspicious.
 
In regards to dates of death, essentially the family could make that call. Assumed murder date, or date found. It's actually nothing suspicious.

So, my questions below are not contentious, just working it out in my head ...
Family can likely determine what's on a monument. But what's on the County death record?
Do families have the ability to change or control the coroner's (County's) death record?
(I could see courtesies extended by the County to the families - "there's no definite time of death, what date do you prefer on the death certificate".)

This is one of those terrible things to think through. My heart breaks for the families that are still enduring this nightmare. And now the trial delayed to October. Good grief. 😢
 
So, my questions below are not contentious, just working it out in my head ...
Family can likely determine what's on a monument. But what's on the County death record?
Do families have the ability to change or control the coroner's (County's) death record?
(I could see courtesies extended by the County to the families - "there's no definite time of death, what date do you prefer on the death certificate".)

This is one of those terrible things to think through. My heart breaks for the families that are still enduring this nightmare. And now the trial delayed to October. Good grief. 😢
I have seen the death certificates but I cannot remember where now. Maybe it was in the big bundle of docs that was released all in one go by the P. They did have different dates and the cause of death of both was exsanguination IIRC. I had never heard of that before.

ETA Found them on Reddit. They both also say manner of death as suicide but that must be a mistake of course.



What do you mean "and now the trial delayed until October ". Have you a link for that? I certainly hope that is not true.

ETA how did you know and were able to post this so quickly at 3.41 pm?
 
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I'm not speculating as to who. I'm focused on this: Is there evidence that is exculpatory? Is there evidence that supports an SODDI theory? Is there a timeline that's more likely that the State's?

All I'm doing is looking at the facts and asking if we follow Libby's phone, what are the most likely scenario(s) that explain Libby's phone records. We don't have the internal logs, but the D and P do. We do have some new info on pings, so ... what scenarios would work? I've been through the scenarios that support the State's theory; the timeline seems too short and forced to me - and that's just MOO.

The D suggesting a later death timeline (death occurring later than the State's timeline that would be exculpatory for RA) ... tells me that the P did not provide the D with forensics that had a tight time of death window; the official window ToD does not exclude an early morning of Feb 14th death. The D suggesting a later timeline also suggests that Libby's phone log records do not exclude an early morning a Feb 14th death.

In other words, the forensic and digital facts give a very wide ToD range.

(I've read so many times that the memorial marker for the victims do not have the same date of death. One is the 13th, one is the14th. No source at the moment - I think we've all read of this anomaly before. Did families get different date-of-death reports from the coroner? Was the time of death estimated at a broad range of 12 hours so it could be either 13th or 14th? Were the victims separated during the abduction, thus different eta's of death?)

Knowing who returned the phone late ... is LE's job. Knowing if the victims may have been separated during the abduction ... also LE's job.

We know that crime scene had a great deal of staging. (Including one victim free of blood and dressed and the other's hands smeared with their friend's blood.) (Per original FM.) There are many crimes where the murderer intentionally leaves staged "messages" at the CS, in an effort to mislead. Or for their own sick satisfaction for notoriety and attention. A cellular phone has been a narrow location tool since early 2000's.

The bottom line (for me) is that ... it appears the options for the timeline are expansive, yet the State has locked itself in to 1.5 hours or less. est.
This is new information and - IMO, it's significant and explains the D's focus on raising doubt on the State's timeline.

JMHO

My opinions in response to each of your points .

1. No x 3
2. Date of death between 2.15pm 13th and 12.15pm 14th. Pings in between those times still to be verified at trial.
3. I cannot see the importance of a connection between the TOD and the phone pings. TOD has been determined by the post mortem presumably. We don't know the exact TOD.
4. Yes but this will be narrowed at trial by specifics.
5. Phone was left at the scene AFAIK. No evidence of separation of the victims. To me, the clothes of one victim being on the other suggests they weren't separated.
6. Staging and phone left at scene. Awaiting evidence from trial.
7. If there is any doubt on the timeline, it should be clarified at trial.
 
So, my questions below are not contentious, just working it out in my head ...
Family can likely determine what's on a monument. But what's on the County death record?
Do families have the ability to change or control the coroner's (County's) death record?
(I could see courtesies extended by the County to the families - "there's no definite time of death, what date do you prefer on the death certificate".)

This is one of those terrible things to think through. My heart breaks for the families that are still enduring this nightmare. And now the trial delayed to October. Good grief. 😢
Where are you getting your info on the trial being delayed? It still shows this month on mycase. The old date was October. Im guessing someone read it backwards.
 


 


Thank you!
 
So they aren't prepared and said as much. Everyone else is.

Also they ewren't arguing the 16 days allotted prior to the trial being set for May. Apparently that had been fine with them.

Were they really going to present their client at trial with a scruffy beard and mustache instead of cleanshaven?

I'm not a bit surprised. Maybe this team should have been preparing instead of doing numerous Franks memos most having nothing to do with what such is actually for nor evidence relating to such.
So more months of this pure b.s. Families get to wait again and probably if any needed to travel already had made arrangements. Same with witnesses. What does the defense care though?

Not to mention now the court has a big empty hole in its calendar. They just gave Gull a vacation if she wants one imo. And knowing the two Ds they will take a vacation instead of working on the case as the unprepared ones either.

Have more thoughts but that's enough for now.
 
So you think the O's did it?

How many on here think the D theory is true and RA is innocent, just out of interest, to try and determine what a jury would make of this?
Well you know what I think. The O theory is ridiculous and there is NOTHING to place them there and more and even if such was the case (IS NOT), RA would be there with them.

Defense can confuse and take jury down some fanciful tale of Os doing it AND NAMING them and then here will come the alibis and even then jury will realize RA was still there as was his bullet.

It shouldn't be allowed just as NM requested because there is no real basis to it or for it. IF it is allowed jury is going to have a lot more confusing fantasy to deal with but will come back to the fact RA was there, as was his bullet. Imo.

I don't know that I've seen any or many here espouse the O thing so much as believe RA may be innocent. Although one or two were stuck on it and the "runes" not sure that means they bought it or are now. Most out there I see think it is ridiculous however all the real news and SM channels running with the sh*t have mostly shut totally up about it and aren't saying "boo" about Delphi at all. Even with this news today. I'm sure Court TV will do something on it, they haven't shut up entirely but most others have.
 
That video confirms that there is no DNA evidence linking RA to the crime scene.

I agree with waiting for the trial. I'd love to see everything the prosecution has. There is DNA at the murder scene, as well as fingerprints. How far did they go investigating those. Did they do a familial DNA test? If not, it's, at best, incredibly poor investigation. At worst, it was done deliberately to protect someone.
Lol very interesting for both sides you said however, has what you want in it of course.

I'm done with watching random things on this case.
 
I'm not speculating as to who. I'm focused on this: Is there evidence that is exculpatory? Is there evidence that supports an SODDI theory? Is there a timeline that's more likely that the State's?

All I'm doing is looking at the facts and asking if we follow Libby's phone, what are the most likely scenario(s) that explain Libby's phone records. We don't have the internal logs, but the D and P do. We do have some new info on pings, so ... what scenarios would work? I've been through the scenarios that support the State's theory; the timeline seems too short and forced to me - and that's just MOO.

The D suggesting a later death timeline (death occurring later than the State's timeline that would be exculpatory for RA) ... tells me that the P did not provide the D with forensics that had a tight time of death window; the official window ToD does not exclude an early morning of Feb 14th death. The D suggesting a later timeline also suggests that Libby's phone log records do not exclude an early morning a Feb 14th death.

In other words, the forensic and digital facts give a very wide ToD range.

(I've read so many times that the memorial marker for the victims do not have the same date of death. One is the 13th, one is the14th. No source at the moment - I think we've all read of this anomaly before. Did families get different date-of-death reports from the coroner? Was the time of death estimated at a broad range of 12 hours so it could be either 13th or 14th? Were the victims separated during the abduction, thus different eta's of death?)

Knowing who returned the phone late ... is LE's job. Knowing if the victims may have been separated during the abduction ... also LE's job.

We know that crime scene had a great deal of staging. (Including one victim free of blood and dressed and the other's hands smeared with their friend's blood.) (Per original FM.) There are many crimes where the murderer intentionally leaves staged "messages" at the CS, in an effort to mislead. Or for their own sick satisfaction for notoriety and attention. A cellular phone has been a narrow location tool since early 2000's.

The bottom line (for me) is that ... it appears the options for the timeline are expansive, yet the State has locked itself in to 1.5 hours or less. est.
This is new information and - IMO, it's significant and explains the D's focus on raising doubt on the State's timeline.

JMHO
Knowng who returned the phone late .... is LE's job, your remarks is a statement of fact and it is NOT a fact ANYONE returned the phone. Having an opinion goes more like this. I think someone returned the phone and if so, it is LE's job to know WHO returned the phone late. Constant attempts to make urban legend fact for lack of a better analogy off the top of my head. You can state and asser things all you want like back with the ISC stuff too, but I will call it out that that's what you are doing. Sorry, but making statements as if fact that aren't fact I'm not going to leave stand for some gullible leader, new person or someone who comes in one day and doesn't read all, etc.

I'd also suggest lol calling the defense and offering to help them, they need it, and you could fill in for the leaking ones but putting out statements like this as fact. Is this the only site you do such on?

You talk being undecided and won't until trial and yet you do things like this. Doesn't mesh or wash. Total contradiction.

I'm glad you saw the eclipse hope every day you and everyone here has a safe and great day but doesn't mean you don't know what I mean and know I'm going to call it out. Yet you keep doing it. Why is that?

If you truly want a fair trial and haven't decided anything. These are statements showing you do and have.

Anywhooo, I also don't think the timeline is too tight at all and never have. Not that I can't see some possibilities of some things varying SOME. Always have been open to that. I for one am not sold on the accuracy of all eyewitnesses.

Hey how about a new one for everyone--here's what Tom said the other night. Like him or not doesn't matter, think about the point. IF Rick was hiding nothing and went right forward to LE, etc., did he also go to CVS and say in the next days or next day or even weeks hey, that's awful about those girls and I actually was at the trail that day and imagine that I must have been just before or there during the time the killer was etc. Did he go to the local bar and say the same? Man, I went in and gave LE all I knew and I was actually at the trails that day!! Did he? What do all of these people say? DID he tell his WIFE and DAUGHTER? I mean he went into LE so one would assume right as a local man concerned about this case and the girls he would have, no? There is NO indication all others knew about this. NOT a HINT of such.

Great points brought up like such. AND if he did tell a soul in just doing what folk would normally do discussing such a thing like whoa, I was there and went in and helped by telling them all the people I saw before I left etc., then WHY is it through all the years not a one said well you know RA was there... or to LE, etc. Anyone can make excuses about this like he was told to stay silent but no, by the DNR officer lol who'se only follow up suggestion was find out who the girls were and whose thought of its importance was so little no one else seemed to know of it and it was ignored and misfiled....?

Kind of jumping off here but there is a LOT of such types of evidence we don't KNOW the answers to that can be as damning or more so than DNA and fingerprint. THIS would be damning.

They should explore a plea for two life sentences instead of more. Imo.
 
I'm not speculating as to who. I'm focused on this: Is there evidence that is exculpatory? Is there evidence that supports an SODDI theory? Is there a timeline that's more likely that the State's?

All I'm doing is looking at the facts and asking if we follow Libby's phone, what are the most likely scenario(s) that explain Libby's phone records. We don't have the internal logs, but the D and P do. We do have some new info on pings, so ... what scenarios would work? I've been through the scenarios that support the State's theory; the timeline seems too short and forced to me - and that's just MOO.

The D suggesting a later death timeline (death occurring later than the State's timeline that would be exculpatory for RA) ... tells me that the P did not provide the D with forensics that had a tight time of death window; the official window ToD does not exclude an early morning of Feb 14th death. The D suggesting a later timeline also suggests that Libby's phone log records do not exclude an early morning a Feb 14th death.

In other words, the forensic and digital facts give a very wide ToD range.

(I've read so many times that the memorial marker for the victims do not have the same date of death. One is the 13th, one is the14th. No source at the moment - I think we've all read of this anomaly before. Did families get different date-of-death reports from the coroner? Was the time of death estimated at a broad range of 12 hours so it could be either 13th or 14th? Were the victims separated during the abduction, thus different eta's of death?)

Knowing who returned the phone late ... is LE's job. Knowing if the victims may have been separated during the abduction ... also LE's job.

We know that crime scene had a great deal of staging. (Including one victim free of blood and dressed and the other's hands smeared with their friend's blood.) (Per original FM.) There are many crimes where the murderer intentionally leaves staged "messages" at the CS, in an effort to mislead. Or for their own sick satisfaction for notoriety and attention. A cellular phone has been a narrow location tool since early 2000's.

The bottom line (for me) is that ... it appears the options for the timeline are expansive, yet the State has locked itself in to 1.5 hours or less. est.
This is new information and - IMO, it's significant and explains the D's focus on raising doubt on the State's timeline.

JMHO
At least your next statement in the same paragraph had the word "may" in it.

Yeah, we know how the victims were per the original FM but hw they were staged is certainly subject to different interpretations and not the ones or reasons the defense gave for either branches, lack of blood, etc. and I'm going to take their word for nothing.

Yes many want messages left to either mislead LE from them as the perp and point to someone else or just sick satisfacton like most SKs or many get, the sick thrill.

Cell phone stuff has become better and better through the years but there are still places and phones and varying things that don't give the same results. Also if someone is on no app with locate and so on or phone is off or no or towers not plentiful, rural, more. As it stands we are not going to know more most likely until trial which is now delayed, big surprise --not.

On the flip side MUCH can be done with them now too. Like in LISK. And with hair with NO ROOT.

Check the Morphew case and the LISK case for a lot of what such shows these days.
 
Watch it.
Exacltly. and I didn't watch that one but i've watched others he insisted would do it. More than once. I'm assuming this is a new one but not even sure of that or they are recycling what they got from the other/s.

There is sooooo much we don't know in this case. And will not until trial.
 


Thanks for finding all these. In this case I did go in and read every single link. With everything I can't always but wanted to with this. Brought many thoughts shared a few but here's another. NM filed something Monday night that he says would be incriminating was it and thinks it should be sealed... That's something I haven't seen mentioned yet but I am back on the page or two a bit catching up so maybe by now someone has.
 
Sorry everyone, I was not able to provide links for my postponement post b/c I was post-interrupted and had to attend to real world emergent issues; I did not return home until about an hour ago.

I hate post-interruptus. Thanks @Imamazed for helping out the thread.
 
Sorry everyone, I was not able to provide links for my postponement post b/c I was post-interrupted and had to attend to real world emergent issues; I did not return home until about an hour ago.

I hate post-interruptus. Thanks @Imamazed for helping out the thread.

I hope all is ok.
 

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