LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Cousin Dupree]

The spitting comment was to a cop.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The spitting comment was to a cop.

I know? And so? The DNA was his, found and he could be placed there? He never said anything different prior? It still is NOT EVIDENCE. It is a supposedly a bit mentally disabled young impressionable man who said various things. If one reads the law or listens to it by the ones that do, this is enough how? He also later said how'd he get there? Like magically? What did he say, I forget? So if you are going to count that one then you have to count his later statement and all his others.

I don't think one can even know unless we knew him and saw him and listened to him. But in my mind he makes me thing of someone many of us used to know. A mentally disabled young adult. His parents let him go to the bars and MOST knew him and watched out for him and he drank beer and was an adult but never lived alone, etc. and definitely challenged. I of course was a good one and so were my friends but he'd take up just about anything he heard. And I saw others play him and it bothered me to no end. Supposed good guys.

One time my best friend was telling me her husband was in the doghouse, and he was sitting with us. We were as MOST good ones did, including him and watching out for him. He started chuckling and he took it literally and of course if you follow me, her hub had been an arse that day or some such and she was not happy with him. He thought he was IN or SLEEPING in the doghouse.

I'm not saying this guy is like that but I am saying we don't know. The one I am talking about was very much a sweetheart. He went on the rest of the night to everyone and for week stop come about _______ sleeping in the dog house. And of course everyone who did not know the basis had not a clue what he was talking of.

This murder and this case was probably being talked of everywhere in this small area. Who knows...

That's a bit of a sidetrack and again we haven't seen him nor know to be able to guess what he takes in or understands but it is besides the point.

That sure the heck is not enough proof or evidence of anything.

It's no different than RA could say he killed the girls and then later says otherwise or later say facts that don't fit where earlier they did.

You do recall the same man saying how did he get there don't ya?

The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and has the burden but the way I understand it, if a defense wants to do a third party defense actually naming people and taking a theory and avenue, they have put on themselves the same burden. And they haven't even come CLOSE to meeting it. Car? Witnesses? Bullet? Gun? Sightings?

That's the problem with taking one on, they then put themselves in the same shoes. There needs to be enough let's just say "probable cause". And there isn't.

 

[Imamazed]

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/judge-rules-on-admissibility-of-defenses-alternative-theories-in-delphi-murders/

Judge rules on admissibility of defense’s alternative theories in Delphi murders​

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – Special Judge Fran Gull will not allow Richard Allen’s defense to present its third-party murder theory in court.
In a ruling handed down Wednesday, Gull granted most of the state’s Motion in Limine seeking to prohibit the Odinism theory from being part of the proceedings.

In her Sept. 4 order, Gull sided with the prosecution, writing that the “burden was on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing” and specific individuals cited in defense motions.

“The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence,” Gull wrote in her order. She added that the defense had “failed to produce admissible evidence” demonstrating such a nexus during hearings.

“The Court will not permit the evidence submitted by the defense in support of their arguments regarding third-party perpetrators in the trial of this cause as the probative value of such evidence is greatly outweighed by confusion of the issues and its potential to mislead the jury,” Gull wrote.

She left the door open—slightly—for the defense by writing that the court would allow evidence “to support an offer of proof at the trial if one is made by Counsel.”

Jury selection is scheduled to start on Oct. 14, with jurors being pulled from Allen County and transported to Carroll County for Allen’s trial, which is scheduled to wrap up on Nov. 15.

 

[Imamazed]

Judge orders defense can't argue their Odinism claim during Delphi Murders trial

Special Judge Fran Gull ruled that Allen's defense team of Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin failed to produce admissible evidence demonstrating a nexus between Odinism and the murders.

www.wrtv.com

 

[GrandmaBear]

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/judge-rules-on-admissibility-of-defenses-alternative-theories-in-delphi-murders/

Judge rules on admissibility of defense’s alternative theories in Delphi murders​

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – Special Judge Fran Gull will not allow Richard Allen’s defense to present its third-party murder theory in court.
In a ruling handed down Wednesday, Gull granted most of the state’s Motion in Limine seeking to prohibit the Odinism theory from being part of the proceedings.

In her Sept. 4 order, Gull sided with the prosecution, writing that the “burden was on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing” and specific individuals cited in defense motions.

“The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence,” Gull wrote in her order. She added that the defense had “failed to produce admissible evidence” demonstrating such a nexus during hearings.

“The Court will not permit the evidence submitted by the defense in support of their arguments regarding third-party perpetrators in the trial of this cause as the probative value of such evidence is greatly outweighed by confusion of the issues and its potential to mislead the jury,” Gull wrote.

She left the door open—slightly—for the defense by writing that the court would allow evidence “to support an offer of proof at the trial if one is made by Counsel.”

Jury selection is scheduled to start on Oct. 14, with jurors being pulled from Allen County and transported to Carroll County for Allen’s trial, which is scheduled to wrap up on Nov. 15.

THIS is the article I read quickly on break. And how it was put. I saw the news on YT then not used to doing on my phone but went and looked for an article to confirm then signed in and shared the news but no time to link an article.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Judge orders defense can't argue their Odinism claim during Delphi Murders trial

Special Judge Fran Gull ruled that Allen's defense team of Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin failed to produce admissible evidence demonstrating a nexus between Odinism and the murders.

www.wrtv.com

Yes the last sentence in this one says pretty much it has to be new, and actual evidence. The one above was unclear on that. What they have submitted already is not enough and was already ruled on. That is the way I understood it. They can't rehash the same hearsay, etc. lack of evidence.

 

[Tresir]

The one I read wasn't worded like this. This sounds like they can continue to argue this at trial, the way I read it in another article is IF they have proof, they can argue it come in (not what they have already shown but REAL proof, new stuff in other words, I'd say). That's how I took it. This one is worded much differently in that respect. She's already ruled on the things they submitted, argued, stated, etc. with this ruling.

Well he has no defense and it is pretty apparent he has no alibi or they'd have filed it and asked for dismissal due to alibi. This trial shouldn't take four weeks now. They are going to have to poke holes in the prosecution case and try to argue they've not proven their case. What else do they have? And I don't think they'll be successful with that, there is plenty of evidence and now a ton of confessions.

They can't fix now but they would have been wise to counsel their client in the first days to keep his mouth shut as most defense attorneys do and consider part of their job.

This is the right decision, Scott Reisch has been saying these very same things. Per the laws there has to be more than what they showed which was no placement of any of the Os there.

I think all her decisons were the right ones and not out of bias but because they didn't prove reasons for anything they requested. I do disagree in that I would not have moved RA but she did give them that one. I do not believe in his safety and let's hope they can keep him alive for the next two months.

I don't know if I knew the jury was to be sequestered. I knew they were coming from Allen County but did not know of the sequestering I don't think. That's a LONG time for them IF it goes four weeks. I just don't see how it can without the defense purposely drawing it out with irrelevant and repeat stuff. All O experts can now go and be dismissed. The O guys won't be among the witnesses for trial subpoenaed. I imagine they cannot bring in Click, etc. either unless they can somehow in around about way question say the sheriff asking if others were ever looked at in the invstigation... And NM is going to want to ensure he does not bring up Os accidentally or anything or would that open the door? I doubt he would, he'lll be glad to have the outlandish theory gone, but I mean don't slip.

Well, that does it now here comes trial... Short of them desperately attempting more motions, etc. or a stall tactic by going back to the ISC but I wouldn't but then I'm not them and they certainly would, to no avail... Who knows...

Not a good day for them or for RA so I sure hope they have a close eye on him.

Tom should be on tonight since the news is out and I'm actually done with work, home and two days off so I can actually catch a LIVE once!!!

I think she has done well. That defence would try the patience of a saint. They still have the chance for the argument if they have any real evidence a third party was involved rather than the fairy tale they came up with. I wonder if they asked RA if he did it before all those confessions. I mean why didn't he confess to them?

The jury was going to be bussed in daily so now they will be sequestered, so does that mean a Delphi or Lafayette hotel?

 

[Tresir]

The spitting comment was to a cop.

Yes but it was a hypothetical statement. He was never at the crime scene.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think she has done well. That defence would try the patience of a saint. They still have the chance for the argument if they have any real evidence a third party was involved rather than the fairy tale they came up with. I wonder if they asked RA if he did it before all those confessions. I mean why didn't he confess to them?

The jury was going to be bussed in daily so now they will be sequestered, so does that mean a Delphi or Lafayette hotel?

I wouldn't be so sure he did not confess to them, that is if he could ever reach them or had any contact with his own attorneys. He probably wanted their advice but had no contact and so he just stared spilling everywhere else. I've said it a million times, they are covering up their own failures, imo of course, and blaming everyone BUT themselves...

And you said it well, it is a fairy tale, to was blizzard and a lot of bluster and you clear that, the b.s., and it's nothingness, nothing of import. And that's what a judge SHOULD do. Honestly hey should have to go through hundreds of pages to do that but that's just more of, imo, a very unprofessional and juvenile attempt but what I think they cared about as much or more was public perception and pressure on her and look, such still exists...

Your article said they will come from and be chosen in Allen County and then the trial will be in Delphi or Carroll County. So that means they will be housed in a Delphi or area hotel imo not too far away. I do think it is the first time I heard of sequestering or I just did not recall...

I guess they could bus them daily from Allen but why if sequestered? They aren't going to be driving back and forth from home where Allen would be closer for them. If sequestered they should be near Delphi because they aren't going to be going home every night, saves on eveyone.

That too came from your article.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yes but it was a hypothetical statement. He was never at the crime scene.

Exactly. They don't have one shred of evidence.

It's like the D's hypothetical in their first FM which so many thought fact.

If any kind of b.s. circuit and made up crap were to be allowed, then say goodbye to any legal system. IF they want to give a third party defense and go there, they NEED the goods. They are putting themselves in the same spot as the P or State, they need enough probable cause and evidence. And they have NOTHING.

 

[GrandmaBear]

You are probably just up and I usually push it on my first night off before a day off and then try to sleep in but I am beyond wiped almost this time and struggling to stay up. It's only barely 11 and I am never in bed before that or midnight or later even when on a work week but I am wiped out.

We do not, as known, agree in every case, but we do for the most part in this one.

And your remark too where it is a hypothetical, very apt. They gave nothing solid despite hundreds on hundreds of pages. I'd use a red pen if judge rather than a highlighter. That's out and no substance, that's out, that's out and that's out....

 

[Tresir]

You are probably just up and I usually push it on my first night off before a day off and then try to sleep in but I am beyond wiped almost this time and struggling to stay up. It's only barely 11 and I am never in bed before that or midnight or later even when on a work week but I am wiped out.

We do not, as known, agree in every case, but we do for the most part in this one.

And your remark too where it is a hypothetical, very apt. They gave nothing solid despite hundreds on hundreds of pages. I'd use a red pen if judge rather than a highlighter. That's out and no substance, that's out, that's out and that's out....

I had a bit of a nightmare which woke me up early. I was in Central London in the dream and traffic was going crazy out of control everywhere, trains were going down the main Oxford street and carriages were becoming loose and it was such chaos that it woke me up. So thought i would check the threads LOL. Its only 5.30 a.m. here. Will be going back to sleep shortly.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I had a bit of a nightmare which woke me up early. I was in Central London in the dream and traffic was going crazy out of control everywhere, trains were going down the main Oxford street and carriages were becoming loose and it was such chaos that it woke me up. So thought i would check the threads LOL. Its only 5.30 a.m. here. Will be going back to sleep shortly.

Carriages as in with horses?

So you were back in the day??

I've been determined since the last time knowing you are six hours ahead of where I am to keep it in mind and not forget the time difference lol so I noticed right away you are either up for hours past night or up very early.

I dropped off myself, very hard week as said. Just woke up and it's 1:37 a.m. So here I am up and should have went back to sleep no nightmare, just wiped and dropped off I don't know about 9 or 10 something and awoke now. Going to go back to bed too hopefully in a bit and sleep til I wake up naturally. I intend that on every day off but don't ever manage to sleep in as I hope to.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Yes but it was a hypothetical statement. He was never at the crime scene.

How do you know that?

 

[Tresir]

How do you know that?

No evidence of any other male on the trail at that time.

 

[Tresir]

Carriages as in with horses?

So you were back in the day??

I've been determined since the last time knowing you are six hours ahead of where I am to keep it in mind and not forget the time difference lol so I noticed right away you are either up for hours past night or up very early.

I dropped off myself, very hard week as said. Just woke up and it's 1:37 a.m. So here I am up and should have went back to sleep no nightmare, just wiped and dropped off I don't know about 9 or 10 something and awoke now. Going to go back to bed too hopefully in a bit and sleep til I wake up naturally. I intend that on every day off but don't ever manage to sleep in as I hope to.

No they were fast moving train carriages so even more weird than horse carriages. Anyway, since when did nightmares make sense. I went straight back to sleep for another three hours, after posting that.

 

[GrandmaBear]

How do you know that?

Here's one for ya. They investigated the O thing years before. They found not one shred of evidence that placed them there, much less placed this mixed up, changing stories young man there, nor any of them.

But then fast forward five years or whatever it was to RA and even that many years LATER they WERE able to find evidence of RA there, from video of his car to a bullet to who knows what all, but plenty that apparently panics both him and his attorneys enough to need EVERYTHING THROWN OUT and who show complete and utter desperation over whatever all evidence it is that panics them.

YEARS later.

If the Os were there, they would have found evidence of such. They did not. Things were far fresher in those years than years later.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No they were fast moving train carriages so even more weird than horse carriages. Anyway, since when did nightmares make sense. I went straight back to sleep for another three hours, after posting that.

I figured it was some "Brit" term lol, rather than you had some dream from a time period you did not live during.

I don't even recall what I did. I stupidly stayed up but couldn't keep my eyes open after waking up and at some point went to bed for real. I know I tried to listen to something and posted but I was just wiped. It wasn't long, I know that before I gave up. Like I said, this week just entirely wiped me. I know they all do but it was beyond. I know I awoke at 1:30, not sure what time gave it up again and I just woke up now (8 a.m.) I figure I must have got at least five hours of broken up sleep, maybe more. Not sure. I had a cup of junk microwave Mac and cheese at some point. Hardly gourmet but it hit the spot lol. I've had to give up the cooking for the most part and turn to convenience in this job and life and that really bothers me.

I do have all the fixings for a BLT but just haven't gotten around to assembling one yet, that even is too much work on work days. Luckily I did make a small pot of chili last week and I had that the first days of the work week and boy did it hit the spot. Been craving such. Almost cried when I finished it lol.

To get on topic here, Gull did what a judge should do and cut through the b.s. of all the ridiculous filings and claims with nothing to back them up of the O sh*t. NM did as he should do as a prosecuting attorney and cut through such as well, filing and pointing out the law and the failure to meet the criteria.

Many of us, not all (and I mean us as in out there on the internet too), could see the very same thing all along, it just isn't there. They filed hundreds of not thousands of pages of nothing and tried to bury all and make it seem like something, but it isn't. Just as I've said all along, one big blizzard. They've done about all wrong they could. Leaked and more. Not protecting evidence, you name it.

It's no secret I often don't like defense attorneys in all cases but I've never seen ANYTHING so bad as this. The others do their jobs and cite the law and keep to the point. Then we have these whiney, corrupt and lying buffoons. We have had so many examples I lose count and am not sure how anyone could see them as otherwise.

They could have gotten some confessions tossed if they had addressed each but nope, one big blanket like all has been, throw everything out. Don't allow any of it.

They are so bad that they would not do the right thing and step down and admit to RA he needed competent lawyers. They bamboozled him into now being in a spot where he will be very hard put to claim ineffective counsel.

They fought to stay on it not for him imo but for saving of selves because they majorly failed him.

Gull's decisions imo are by the book and based on their lack of showing anything of substance, they have certainly had the chance, repeatedly and for a very long time now.

I think she DID do them a favor moving RA because I don't think she needed to do that either. She gave them that. However, he was already and going to be nearer for trial anyhow and it's not for that long.

When convicted he will be right back to prison.

These two clowns are the cause of almost everything, and their failures.

Once RA confessed even, they should have been all over getting him a deal of the best they could. If not a reduction of life sentence, a total admission of all for a prison closer to home, maybe some small something in exchange and anything else they could work. They have been combative and nasty with all others from the other side to the judge and pretty much tried to take her down and destroy her. When ALL the failures are so clearly theirs.

I don't know how anyone cannot see this.

People are falling for the stupidest b.s. these days and ignore that he put himself there and it can be corroborated. That voice alone is going to bring a guilty verdict. I've heard the match. I'm sure they have even better. The bullet, the videos, his statements, his confessions and Lord knows what they found with the searches.

They could not find sh*t to connect the Os, RL or KK years earlier in fact. But they could with RA.

The other thing Gull HAS done is kept this from turning into one big circus as they've attempted to do so. She could have stepped down with all the attacks as that first judge did. She has stayed the course and even with if I recall a personal health crisis and their b.s. on top of it.

I've not been enamored of all with her either but getting through this one for any judge and not losing it alone takes a strong one.

I am very against her lack of coverage for the public re this trial for instance.

I also don't think appeals of RA now or after are going to go far. They've pretty much already tested such... Such appeals will be tried of course.

Long one. It's my post before coffee has hit, on FINALLY a day off, first morning...

 

[GrandmaBear]

No they were fast moving train carriages so even more weird than horse carriages. Anyway, since when did nightmares make sense. I went straight back to sleep for another three hours, after posting that.

Nightmares and dreams never make full sense, agree, that's for sure... We sure go through periods. I lately have few of either, probably because I push the lack of sleep so far that when I do sleep, I zonk even though I wake up worried before alarms that I won't wake up on time for ever changing shifts and alarms.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Also the D nailed themselves in by NAMING individuals they can't place there or show any proof could have done it. They could have used a more vague this seems ritualistic defense, they could have used a "many" were looked at defense over the years as to did they do it, could it have been this person or that person. But they set themselves up for and went for a very specific third party defense and then they have to meet a burden of proof, just like the prosecution from how I understand it.

I do think their arses may be sued when this is over by BH for one... Using a specific third party defense is a high bar and has criteria that needs to be met. There is no question they failed to do that. I can think of another recent cases where similar was attempted but failed as well. With a public blitz as well...