LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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One example of a few is Baldwin asked Pat Brown so you had phone service there (near the bodies). Answer yes, I did. Long pause by Baldwin. Tom figures and makes perfect sense to make all wonder why Libby's phone wouldn't have (but they haven't even gotten to that to the jury have they yet?). I think some accounts touched on jurors asking what cell phone provider he had in the links here but I don't think the detail of Baldwin's questions were given (and this is just one).

I'm like so what.... I had a rural place and I can tell you the difference in my provider and my daughters and others. Mine was almost always GREAT, no one else's ever was. Plus the phone was under Abby's body so whateeeevvvver...

Anyhow, B needs to realize too this then can be shown can't it, that this call was really made by Pat Brown.

Just saying Tom's got a bit more detail than I've read. More too about LE, where they were, just at the scene, any out in the woods, did they have guns (of course LE has guns but we know the point there)...

Nothing gaining anything imo but thee is more detail and more mof the questions asked shared.

A lot more actually, even with other ones.

I am pretty positive I also read every link here in full so this is an informed opinion. Sometimes I can't read all of them nor have the time but I think since this has started I have read them all so I know some of what Tom is relaying I never read or heard.

Again no big ahas but D asked more questions than i'd have thought and for obviousi reasons. Which truly the answers to are no real surprise either. His phone worked, some didn't, depending on where at in woods or search. Etc. LE and guns. Well yah. Did anyone get one out... Reaching imo. But then, they gotta try.
There is nothing to suggest Libby's phone had no service. She sent that Snapchat of Abby at 2.15pm ok. It was only the fact that she was not alive to answer it when her father was trying to contact her IMO. RA pretty much had plenty of time to do what he did before DG even got there and started calling Libby and tried to find her. I think the phone data will show this and should show RA's phone in the locality too IMO. If it shows his phone leaving the area at 1.30 pm as the D maintain, that would be new info. There should be a search history on his phone showing his stock ticker monitoring, if he has nothing to hide. The phone history should show the time of him leaving too, all depending on the accuracy of phone locations at that time.

This is assuming he still had that phone in his possession or that his phone records can be retrieved. They did it with LISK so it should be possible with RA as it is only 7 years ago and only 5 years ago since his arrest.
 
It says Brown picked up his daughter at 11 am then got a call from Mears about the clothes and headed to the creek and found them. IIRC they were found about midday. I just assumed Melissa was his daughter but anyway Brown said she went and called LE. So a bit of a discrepancy somewhere as to who actually called the police.
I am going to need to go back and read @RoundPeg s link above but actually Tom gets credit for my knowing. He knew Melissa's last name and so he knew that was Becky Pattys maiden name so figures she is either an unmarried sister or sister-in-law married to a brother was his guess... She's a relative of Libby's anyhow. So no, not his daughter. I don't think to my knowledge the daughter was ever out searching with him either day. And yes this relative of Libby's did take off after knowing to call I believe and tell someone while he turned his back to what he saw and called Mullin whose number he got that morning when all were at that restaurant. So he had questions from the jury for instance about who his cell provider was because HIS phone worked near where the bodies were found. Yet, and sorry, I can't recall here but I think others had trouble getting reception like near where the clothes were found and at different points.

I will also say as I've said about rural areas and especially those with hills and valleys, etc., it is different for everyone and even if yours is great and you walk a few feet it can be lousy. Anyhow, nothing suspect there, he answered that yes, he had reception and yes he called Mullin and this should be easily in the records as to time and that such was done.

NOW I HOPE I have it right, I'm pretty sure it was after he found the bodies. Basically immediately.

I think it was also yelled they had been found (don't quote me on that) but pretty certain as there is a lot about the ones by the clothes versus him near the bodies could hear the others but they coulnd't necessarily see them.

Anyhow Tom had a lot more detail, not that he didn't have notes of his own he was unsure of. He also admitted to paying attn to the wrong things a few times and I honestlly think he was watching Allen, etc.

Anyhow the jurors are asking questions about cell phone coverage or one and if his phone worked... In that spot. I guess that would also say something about whether RA's or Libby's would wouldn't it... However, again in rural areas you can move a few feet or yards and lose all signal. Jurors ARE paying attention.

But yeah, the woman was not Brown's daughter, it was probably a sister or sister in law of Becky's out searching and out at the trials like most were, Kelsi, all of them.
 
Thanks.

Copied from the article -

In Carroll County, neighbors help neighbors.

That is what Pat Brown did, Tom Mears, and hundreds of others in the community in 2017.

Brown testified Saturday during the trial of Richard Allen that a call from Mears sent him back to the Monon High Bridge trail to help search for Abby Williams and Libby German on Feb. 14, 2017.

Allen has been charged with four counts of felony murder in the girls’ deaths.

Brown found the bodies of the girls a short time after returning to the trails. As he waited for the police, he stood with his back to the girls.

Brown first helped in the search for the girls on Feb. 13, 2017.

“I’ve known Mike (Patty) since high school,” Brown testified. “My oldest daughter is the same age as Kelsi (Siebert, Libby’s sister).

“My wife said Becky (Patty, Libby’s grandmother) posted on Facebook that the girls were missing.”

He said he called Mike, who was at the Carroll County Sheriff’s Office, to ask if the girls had been found. Hearing they were still missing, he went to the Monon High Bridge Trail to help with the search.“It was dark,” he said. “I called Tom Mears and told him to meet me there to help.”

Brown began his search at Morning Heights Cemetery on County Road 300 North; he also stopped at a neighbor’s home to see if he had seen the girls. He had not.

“I could hear people on the (Monon High Bridge) and see lights,” he said.

Brown said he searched the woods, walking along the ridge in the area behind the cemetery and traveling back to the Monon High Bridge. The ridge in the woods is “pretty steep,” he said.

He told Deputy Prosecutor Stacey Diener that the area, particularly walking down to the water, is difficult to traverse.

“In the dark, you’d probably break a leg real easy,” he said. “It’s really steep out there.”

The next morning, Brown said he called off work to continue to help with the search.

“I went to the Stone House (Restaurant) and met Tom Mears and his dad,” he said on the morning of Feb. 14, 2017. “We were drinking coffee, and then we went to the firehouse. They were talking about the search.”

Brown and Tom Mears joined the search teams, searching east of the cemetery, he said. They even checked an old cave but said it had been blasted years before.

The gentlemen returned to their homes. A short time later, Brown got a call from Mears telling him members of the search party had found something in the water.

“He said, ‘Hey, I just got a phone call from Shane Haygood, and they found something in the creek.”

Mears wanted Brown to go back to the cemetery and look past the ridge of the ravine. As Brown was searching, Haygood called him.

“He said they could see something from across the creek,” Brown said. As he made his way down the hill toward the water, Brown ran into Becky Patty’s sister.

“And that’s when we found ‘em,” he said, becoming overcome with emotion.

“I said, ‘We found them,’” Brown said through tears. “I thought they were mannequins.

“I just stood there facing away from them.

Brown said he was standing about 5-feet from the girls. He called Steve Mullin, then Delphi Police Chief and two law enforcement officers showed up quickly, he said.

Allen’s attorney, Andrew Baldwin, asked if “a bunch of policemen in full uniform” came down to the crime scene. “Yes,” Brown said. “With guns?” Baldwin asked. “Yes,” Brown said.

Baldwin attempted to ask if there were “lots of scavenger animals” in the area, but Diener objected. Gull sustained the objection.

For the first time since the trial began, there was a question for the witness from a juror. They asked, “Who was your cell phone provided?” Brown said he had service through Verizon.

Upstream​

Searcher Jake Johns testified that his boss heard about the missing girls and asked his staff if they wanted to help with the search. Johns said he and his friend Shane Haygood started their search at Riley Park and followed the Deer Creek upstream past the High Bridge, searching along the bank.

Diener asked Johns if they knew what they were looking for.

“A tie-dyed shirt,” he said. “It took us four hours. He looked at the water, and I was looking at the top side.

“We went under the bridge, and that’s when we saw some clothes in the water. It was the tie-dyed shirt.”

Johns said they could not reach the shirt as the water was waist-deep. They found a firefighter who was also searching and told him they had found a shirt. They also found a Nike shoe, he said.

Haygood called Brown to tell them of their find, Johns said.

On cross-examination, Defense Attorney Jennifer Auger asked Johns if sound traveled near the creek. “Yes,” he said.

Diener, on redirect, asked, “After Pat Brown said the bodies had been found, cold you see (the girls)?

“We could not see the girls, but we could hear Pat Brown,” he said.

Routine Day​

He said it was a “routine day” before he heard on his police radio that Abby and Libby were missing. Mullin used a map to pinpoint the locations of the High Bridge, Mears Trailhead, and where the bodies of the girls were found. He said it was a “routine day” before he heard on his police radio that Abby and Libby were missing.

He said he went to the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department to talk to dispatch after receiving the news.

“I wanted to help in any way I could,” he said.

Mullin said he spoke to the principal of Delphi Community Middle School as well as the school’s guidance counselor to help locate friends of the girls who may be able to help identify where they could be

At 2 a.m. on Feb. 14, 2017, Mullin headed home when the search had been called off for the evening.

“I still believed, given time, they would return home,” he said. “I couldn’t imagine anyone had done any harm to them.”

Jurors asked Mullin four questions. Among those, “What was the thought process when looking downstream?”

“That the girls may have fallen off the bridge,” he said. “With the height as such (60 feet), they would have been injured.”

Jurors also asked for clarity on where the bodies were found.

“North of Deer Creek and south of the cemetery,” he said. “The creek runs north and south of Moring Height Cemetery.

Family Moments

Friday, three members of Libby’s family testified: her grandmother, Becky Patty, sister, Kelsi (German) Siebert, and her father, Derrick German.

Becky Patty told the jury what a special girl Libby was. She described her as outgoing, highly involved in sports, and kind.

“She was polite, but if you were out of line, she would tell you,” Becky said. “She had more reason than I did. She was calm. That was her nature.

“She was logical. She loved crime shows. She said, ‘I’m gonna do that someday, or I’m gonna find cures.”

Libby’s great-grandmother died of COPD when she was little.

She said when Libby didn’t show up at the arranged time, she began to worry.

“I knew that wasn’t Libby, so I knew we needed to get to the trails and look for them.”

They drove around the area in case the girls walked home, and she called AT&T to try and get a location on the phone, she said.

As night fell, Becky said it was time to get more help.

“I told (Mike Patty, her husband) we need to do something. It’s gonna get dark,” she said.

The family called the police and then went to the station, where they remained until after midnight.

The next morning, they joined the search with others, she testified.

“We were walking back to our car; a friend came up and said, ‘They found them, they found them,’” she said.

She said she ran to the police and said, “You need to take me, you need to take me to Libby.” It was then, she said, that she saw her sister crying. “All she could say was, ‘I’m sorry; I’m sorry.’

“I remember sitting there, and I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t take me to them. As I was sitting there, I saw the coroner’s truck driving by, and that’s when I knew … they weren’t alive.”

As Becky shared her story, Allen’s wife and mother could be seen crying.

On cross-examination, Baldwin used the same line of questioning for each of the family members of Abby and Libby. “How was her voice?” “Was Libby outspoken?” “How was (her voice) strength-wise?” He then asked about the night of the search and if flashlights could be seen in the woods and where specifically.

Kelsi described Libby as “… more like my best friend than my sister.” “Libby was the outgoing one, she said. “She would find someone who needed someone. She was very brave.”

The girls had crossed the High Bridge before. “I crawled across it,” she said of her first attempt.

Libby had asked her sister to go with her to the bridge on Feb. 13, 2017, but Kelsi said she woke up late.

She said she loaned Abby her jacket, and Libby grabbed a swimming sweatshirt out of the backseat of her car as she dropped them off at the trail.

On Feb. 14, 2017, she continued calling and texting her sister, something she had done the previous evening. She searched with others, specifically below High Bridge.

“We went down (the hill) and to the right, she said. “Not long after, there was someone that yelled they had found the girls.”

She said the women did not know she was Libby’s sister when they shared the news.

Kelsi and Libby’s father, Derrick German, testified that the morning the girls went missing, he had made them banana pancakes before driving to Frankfort for work.

“About halfway to Frankfort (Libby) called and asked me to pick them up at High Bridge on my way back home from Frankfort,” he said. “I told her it would be a couple of hours.

“She said, ‘No problem, we’ll just do some exploring.’”

Derrick was running late and called the girls to let them know. Libby did not answer her phone. He called again when he got to the Bridge. When Libby still did not answer her phone, Derrick said he got out and began looking for the girls.

After police were called to aid in the search, German said he had to go to the police station with the rest of the family. He returned to the trail around 10 p.m. that evening.

“The left trail at High Bridge is pretty steep, so I did not go down by the water,” he said. Instead, he searched by the ravine, which runs south of the cemetery.

“It was pitch black in the woods,” he said.

He searched until 2 a.m. and then returned home. He returned to search the next morning.

“I knew something was up when my aunt came running off the trail screaming,” he said. “I could hear murmurs. “I saw the coroner go by, and I saw about 12 cop cars go by, so I went to find Kelsi.

Diener asked if the area was difficult to traverse.

“It was hard,” he said.

The final family member to testify Friday was Anna Williams, Abby’s mother.

She was emotional but found the strength to smile when Diener asked her if she was Abby’s ‘mom.

She described her daughter as “kind of shy. She was a very kind little girl, helpful, smart, funny. She loved reading.

She said Abby was involved in volleyball and was going to play softball. The Saturday before she was killed, Abby spent time with her grandfather purchasing the equipment she would need for the sport.

On Sunday, she took Abby to the park, where she met up with Libby. On the way home, the girls had worked it out so Abby could spend the night with Libby.

“If she had asked to go across the bridge, would you let her?

“Absolutely not,” she said.

She found out Abby was missing after seeing three missed calls from Becky.

“I told my coworker; they just called me. I don’t know what these girls are up to, but it’s probably nothing.”
Okay. Just catching up. This one has a TON of what Tom shared from his notes. And this one says right out that was Becky's sister. THis one is FAR more detailed than most we'd seen prior and so was Tom's.

Is this the link RP did that I said I was going to go back and look at after catching up/ I didn't see the fact that Brown called Mullin but he did at some pointin the searching and again I'm pretty sure it was upon finding the girls. At the same time Becky's sister went running, yelling and calling. It was terrible I'm sure for them both. Just as it was with Becky only finding out what that means when she saw the coroner pass and a ton of LE responding, etc...
 
Thanks.

Copied from the article -

In Carroll County, neighbors help neighbors.

That is what Pat Brown did, Tom Mears, and hundreds of others in the community in 2017.

Brown testified Saturday during the trial of Richard Allen that a call from Mears sent him back to the Monon High Bridge trail to help search for Abby Williams and Libby German on Feb. 14, 2017.

Allen has been charged with four counts of felony murder in the girls’ deaths.

Brown found the bodies of the girls a short time after returning to the trails. As he waited for the police, he stood with his back to the girls.

Brown first helped in the search for the girls on Feb. 13, 2017.

“I’ve known Mike (Patty) since high school,” Brown testified. “My oldest daughter is the same age as Kelsi (Siebert, Libby’s sister).

“My wife said Becky (Patty, Libby’s grandmother) posted on Facebook that the girls were missing.”

He said he called Mike, who was at the Carroll County Sheriff’s Office, to ask if the girls had been found. Hearing they were still missing, he went to the Monon High Bridge Trail to help with the search.“It was dark,” he said. “I called Tom Mears and told him to meet me there to help.”

Brown began his search at Morning Heights Cemetery on County Road 300 North; he also stopped at a neighbor’s home to see if he had seen the girls. He had not.

“I could hear people on the (Monon High Bridge) and see lights,” he said.

Brown said he searched the woods, walking along the ridge in the area behind the cemetery and traveling back to the Monon High Bridge. The ridge in the woods is “pretty steep,” he said.

He told Deputy Prosecutor Stacey Diener that the area, particularly walking down to the water, is difficult to traverse.

“In the dark, you’d probably break a leg real easy,” he said. “It’s really steep out there.”

The next morning, Brown said he called off work to continue to help with the search.

“I went to the Stone House (Restaurant) and met Tom Mears and his dad,” he said on the morning of Feb. 14, 2017. “We were drinking coffee, and then we went to the firehouse. They were talking about the search.”

Brown and Tom Mears joined the search teams, searching east of the cemetery, he said. They even checked an old cave but said it had been blasted years before.

The gentlemen returned to their homes. A short time later, Brown got a call from Mears telling him members of the search party had found something in the water.

“He said, ‘Hey, I just got a phone call from Shane Haygood, and they found something in the creek.”

Mears wanted Brown to go back to the cemetery and look past the ridge of the ravine. As Brown was searching, Haygood called him.

“He said they could see something from across the creek,” Brown said. As he made his way down the hill toward the water, Brown ran into Becky Patty’s sister.

“And that’s when we found ‘em,” he said, becoming overcome with emotion.

“I said, ‘We found them,’” Brown said through tears. “I thought they were mannequins.

“I just stood there facing away from them.

Brown said he was standing about 5-feet from the girls. He called Steve Mullin, then Delphi Police Chief and two law enforcement officers showed up quickly, he said.

Allen’s attorney, Andrew Baldwin, asked if “a bunch of policemen in full uniform” came down to the crime scene. “Yes,” Brown said. “With guns?” Baldwin asked. “Yes,” Brown said.

Baldwin attempted to ask if there were “lots of scavenger animals” in the area, but Diener objected. Gull sustained the objection.

For the first time since the trial began, there was a question for the witness from a juror. They asked, “Who was your cell phone provided?” Brown said he had service through Verizon.

Upstream​

Searcher Jake Johns testified that his boss heard about the missing girls and asked his staff if they wanted to help with the search. Johns said he and his friend Shane Haygood started their search at Riley Park and followed the Deer Creek upstream past the High Bridge, searching along the bank.

Diener asked Johns if they knew what they were looking for.

“A tie-dyed shirt,” he said. “It took us four hours. He looked at the water, and I was looking at the top side.

“We went under the bridge, and that’s when we saw some clothes in the water. It was the tie-dyed shirt.”

Johns said they could not reach the shirt as the water was waist-deep. They found a firefighter who was also searching and told him they had found a shirt. They also found a Nike shoe, he said.

Haygood called Brown to tell them of their find, Johns said.

On cross-examination, Defense Attorney Jennifer Auger asked Johns if sound traveled near the creek. “Yes,” he said.

Diener, on redirect, asked, “After Pat Brown said the bodies had been found, cold you see (the girls)?

“We could not see the girls, but we could hear Pat Brown,” he said.

Routine Day​

He said it was a “routine day” before he heard on his police radio that Abby and Libby were missing. Mullin used a map to pinpoint the locations of the High Bridge, Mears Trailhead, and where the bodies of the girls were found. He said it was a “routine day” before he heard on his police radio that Abby and Libby were missing.

He said he went to the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department to talk to dispatch after receiving the news.

“I wanted to help in any way I could,” he said.

Mullin said he spoke to the principal of Delphi Community Middle School as well as the school’s guidance counselor to help locate friends of the girls who may be able to help identify where they could be

At 2 a.m. on Feb. 14, 2017, Mullin headed home when the search had been called off for the evening.

“I still believed, given time, they would return home,” he said. “I couldn’t imagine anyone had done any harm to them.”

Jurors asked Mullin four questions. Among those, “What was the thought process when looking downstream?”

“That the girls may have fallen off the bridge,” he said. “With the height as such (60 feet), they would have been injured.”

Jurors also asked for clarity on where the bodies were found.

“North of Deer Creek and south of the cemetery,” he said. “The creek runs north and south of Moring Height Cemetery.

Family Moments

Friday, three members of Libby’s family testified: her grandmother, Becky Patty, sister, Kelsi (German) Siebert, and her father, Derrick German.

Becky Patty told the jury what a special girl Libby was. She described her as outgoing, highly involved in sports, and kind.

“She was polite, but if you were out of line, she would tell you,” Becky said. “She had more reason than I did. She was calm. That was her nature.

“She was logical. She loved crime shows. She said, ‘I’m gonna do that someday, or I’m gonna find cures.”

Libby’s great-grandmother died of COPD when she was little.

She said when Libby didn’t show up at the arranged time, she began to worry.

“I knew that wasn’t Libby, so I knew we needed to get to the trails and look for them.”

They drove around the area in case the girls walked home, and she called AT&T to try and get a location on the phone, she said.

As night fell, Becky said it was time to get more help.

“I told (Mike Patty, her husband) we need to do something. It’s gonna get dark,” she said.

The family called the police and then went to the station, where they remained until after midnight.

The next morning, they joined the search with others, she testified.

“We were walking back to our car; a friend came up and said, ‘They found them, they found them,’” she said.

She said she ran to the police and said, “You need to take me, you need to take me to Libby.” It was then, she said, that she saw her sister crying. “All she could say was, ‘I’m sorry; I’m sorry.’

“I remember sitting there, and I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t take me to them. As I was sitting there, I saw the coroner’s truck driving by, and that’s when I knew … they weren’t alive.”

As Becky shared her story, Allen’s wife and mother could be seen crying.

On cross-examination, Baldwin used the same line of questioning for each of the family members of Abby and Libby. “How was her voice?” “Was Libby outspoken?” “How was (her voice) strength-wise?” He then asked about the night of the search and if flashlights could be seen in the woods and where specifically.

Kelsi described Libby as “… more like my best friend than my sister.” “Libby was the outgoing one, she said. “She would find someone who needed someone. She was very brave.”

The girls had crossed the High Bridge before. “I crawled across it,” she said of her first attempt.

Libby had asked her sister to go with her to the bridge on Feb. 13, 2017, but Kelsi said she woke up late.

She said she loaned Abby her jacket, and Libby grabbed a swimming sweatshirt out of the backseat of her car as she dropped them off at the trail.

On Feb. 14, 2017, she continued calling and texting her sister, something she had done the previous evening. She searched with others, specifically below High Bridge.

“We went down (the hill) and to the right, she said. “Not long after, there was someone that yelled they had found the girls.”

She said the women did not know she was Libby’s sister when they shared the news.

Kelsi and Libby’s father, Derrick German, testified that the morning the girls went missing, he had made them banana pancakes before driving to Frankfort for work.

“About halfway to Frankfort (Libby) called and asked me to pick them up at High Bridge on my way back home from Frankfort,” he said. “I told her it would be a couple of hours.

“She said, ‘No problem, we’ll just do some exploring.’”

Derrick was running late and called the girls to let them know. Libby did not answer her phone. He called again when he got to the Bridge. When Libby still did not answer her phone, Derrick said he got out and began looking for the girls.

After police were called to aid in the search, German said he had to go to the police station with the rest of the family. He returned to the trail around 10 p.m. that evening.

“The left trail at High Bridge is pretty steep, so I did not go down by the water,” he said. Instead, he searched by the ravine, which runs south of the cemetery.

“It was pitch black in the woods,” he said.

He searched until 2 a.m. and then returned home. He returned to search the next morning.

“I knew something was up when my aunt came running off the trail screaming,” he said. “I could hear murmurs. “I saw the coroner go by, and I saw about 12 cop cars go by, so I went to find Kelsi.

Diener asked if the area was difficult to traverse.

“It was hard,” he said.

The final family member to testify Friday was Anna Williams, Abby’s mother.

She was emotional but found the strength to smile when Diener asked her if she was Abby’s ‘mom.

She described her daughter as “kind of shy. She was a very kind little girl, helpful, smart, funny. She loved reading.

She said Abby was involved in volleyball and was going to play softball. The Saturday before she was killed, Abby spent time with her grandfather purchasing the equipment she would need for the sport.

On Sunday, she took Abby to the park, where she met up with Libby. On the way home, the girls had worked it out so Abby could spend the night with Libby.

“If she had asked to go across the bridge, would you let her?

“Absolutely not,” she said.

She found out Abby was missing after seeing three missed calls from Becky.

“I told my coworker; they just called me. I don’t know what these girls are up to, but it’s probably nothing.”
Okay, yes it is from what she linked that she said had a lot more in it. I see that now.

I know darned well over a full week of this I am not going to probably stay up on it but now I have found that Tom is present so that will help if all I can do is watch one thing every night. I haven't even been able to look but whoever did the article here, was far more thorough than some, they could almost be taking from Tom's show lol and notes. A few things differe they don't have but other than that, yes, it was Becky's sister or some relative of Becky's. Just for one.
 
There is nothing to suggest Libby's phone had no service. She sent that Snapchat of Abby at 2.15pm ok. It was only the fact that she was not alive to answer it when her father was trying to contact her IMO. RA pretty much had plenty of time to do what he did before DG even got there and started calling Libby and tried to find her. I think the phone data will show this and should show RA's phone in the locality too IMO. If it shows his phone leaving the area at 1.30 pm as the D maintain, that would be new info. There should be a search history on his phone showing his stock ticker monitoring, if he has nothing to hide. The phone history should show the time of him leaving too, all depending on the accuracy of phone locations at that time.

This is assuming he still had that phone in his possession or that his phone records can be retrieved. They did it with LISK so it should be possible with RA as it is only 7 years ago and only 5 years ago since his arrest.
I did see somewhere not all that long ago that someone said the phone was off. I can't recall who, and I mean back when, but it could well be one of the many involved in local department, other, thought so or they thought that at the time or one did.

I've been going to mention my phones recently. I have two right now because my one I really don't want to chane numbers on as it's in all my things is really not the best of the two phones right now so I've gravitated more to one I had that was newer but I'd never used much with a different number. I don't need to explain but I had my mom get me one for when I was trying to seel my home on my own and had my daughter put it on FB and did an ad or two elsewhere. I did not want my known number to anyone in the ads. This is a year or two ago but I've had the newer phone ever since, just never used it.

To get away from that explanation and sidetrack. I take both to work with me every single day now. I take the newer better one into work because we use our phones a LOT at work to look up things for customers (should't we be provided one and paid for that....?) and my one was getting really bad with things like that. So I leave that one in my car but I bring it along because it';s the number all friends and family have and I want my grandkids to be able to reach me or family, etc., my bill accounts, etc. And I check it every break. I simply have no changed over yet and I really don't want to lose that number and have to redo it with everyone and everything.

Anyhow again, sidetracking a bit. I always leave it where I click off. I don't power it down but where you make the screen bo black and nothing goes on again until you sign in or use it...

And I've noticed every single time I get in my car, break or end of day, within seconds that phone sends off some kind of notification or several. I think the smallest movement triggers it...

And I may be way off and it has nothing to do with this but for all intents and purposes my phone is not powered down but is on INERT. As I've always understtood it. And depending on settings most will do that on their own after how long if you don't leave it in that INERT mode. But it gets woken every time I get in my car or seems to.

So I don't know what the deal is with all of this other than as most can expect, I doubt we are getting the facts from the defense just something selective and I am also guessing the expert from the P will explain it all.

I personally doubt her phone was ever powered off, I don't think he ever saw it or looked for it quite honestly, jmo. But of course I don't know that. And what I'm talking about may have nothing to do with it, but that phone was either INERT or Libby put it in some power saving mode because and into INERT because IF this really happened it had charge. And I think location and having a body on top of it definitely could have affected pinging, etc. PLUS providere, towers, and like I said even a few feet away in a rural setting but also you can not have towers and dthen in the very same spot etc them for a brief period of time.

I don't know sh*t about how it all works and you said a week ago maybe when we were talking about what we most are anticipating in this trial that the cell phone stuff was a big one and I agree, it is.

And nothing I'm saying may even apply but I'm saying if a couple of deer even came near or ran past near, that phone may have triggered with any slight nearby movement. Because mine seems to.

I'd also add one more thing--and that's that the D wanted everything from L's phone excluded... So it's kind of like their mental health thing... They want to claim mental health but won't go down the innocent by reason of path or provide records willingly but they want to use it...

SAme with L's phone, they talk of it firing up at was it 4 a.m. and receiving messages or some such but then they at the same time want all from the phone excluded. ALL. Anything sh edid on it...

Hmmmmm....

yet they claim no way does their guy look like BG so why would they want her video excluded if they think it proves such? But not just that, they wanted all form her phone thrown out.

It is probably a broken record by me but I think all of us realize they always have tried to BLANKET everything, not selectively ask to at least throw these ten confessions out. Or let's limit RA's records to certain years (in response to not them asking to have things thrown out but when P was after them), they wanted all confessions thrown out, the case, all results from a search warrant, all interviews and so on.

They've never just went at key things on their own to get what they could thrown out. It's all been a blanket approach.

Imo NO judge is EVER going to do that, now if you want to argue each thing and point you might have a chance. They never ever have. I also don't think any appeals court is going to see that any differently.

Now I'm wandering a bit so I shall stop.

The D has been majorly worried about ALL of everything... There must be a reason and I'm waiting for that...

They like to talk now to the jury as if they don't have a case, however, then why not just have gone at the lack of one, why the need to have all thrown out... Or not seen. L's phone records beyond the video and the video. RA's mental health records, yet they want to use such...

Yah. Full stop.

My last comment will be I'm sure the D will probably present a few experts that will try to say or interpret the phone stuff differently and that's what turns into a battle of the experts. Personaly, I don't think theirs is going to win out for them but we shall see.

We are not into any of the meat of this yet. Not even close.
 
Trying to finish Tom, he was into his last page of notes when I quit last night or was it this morning, again i've already said it, but they quit early on Saturday because Gull said next witness for the P is going to be lengthy so whoever is first up tomorrow, when I won't get to watch, is going to a much longer witness...
 
So probably last one tonight. Tom in all the time I've watched him (been quite some time now) actuallky razzes Gull and makes a bit of fun of her quite a bit but Is fair.

I am in the chat part now of his show and he said she is very kind and considerate to the horse and you know, that really says a lot. Since attending he can see that. As to their needs, what they may need, etc.

So just a bit of an aside and most judges are the bit i've ever seen because that is really what it comes down to. And I don't mean in bIas either, I mean these are the people giving up their time, they do believe in their civic duty, etc.

He's actually there now. He tried to attend one other time but the hearings got delayed.
 
I am going to need to go back and read @RoundPeg s link above but actually Tom gets credit for my knowing. He knew Melissa's last name and so he knew that was Becky Pattys maiden name so figures she is either an unmarried sister or sister-in-law married to a brother was his guess... She's a relative of Libby's anyhow. So no, not his daughter. I don't think to my knowledge the daughter was ever out searching with him either day. And yes this relative of Libby's did take off after knowing to call I believe and tell someone while he turned his back to what he saw and called Mullin whose number he got that morning when all were at that restaurant. So he had questions from the jury for instance about who his cell provider was because HIS phone worked near where the bodies were found. Yet, and sorry, I can't recall here but I think others had trouble getting reception like near where the clothes were found and at different points.

I will also say as I've said about rural areas and especially those with hills and valleys, etc., it is different for everyone and even if yours is great and you walk a few feet it can be lousy. Anyhow, nothing suspect there, he answered that yes, he had reception and yes he called Mullin and this should be easily in the records as to time and that such was done.

NOW I HOPE I have it right, I'm pretty sure it was after he found the bodies. Basically immediately.

I think it was also yelled they had been found (don't quote me on that) but pretty certain as there is a lot about the ones by the clothes versus him near the bodies could hear the others but they coulnd't necessarily see them.

Anyhow Tom had a lot more detail, not that he didn't have notes of his own he was unsure of. He also admitted to paying attn to the wrong things a few times and I honestlly think he was watching Allen, etc.

Anyhow the jurors are asking questions about cell phone coverage or one and if his phone worked... In that spot. I guess that would also say something about whether RA's or Libby's would wouldn't it... However, again in rural areas you can move a few feet or yards and lose all signal. Jurors ARE paying attention.

But yeah, the woman was not Brown's daughter, it was probably a sister or sister in law of Becky's out searching and out at the trials like most were, Kelsi, all of them.
That account I quoted was misleading and just shows the differences regarding the reporting. It was someone called Melissa anyway.

It's just annoying that after waiting all this time for the case to come to court, we have to rely on piecemeal reporting, rather than follow the court proceedings ourselves. Sorry for any wrong interpretations I made there.
 
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Pat Brown was with Melissa Marchand who ran off to call police. This is a straightforward account of Day 2 testimonies plus a link within the article to Day 1, as well.

 
So probably last one tonight. Tom in all the time I've watched him (been quite some time now) actuallky razzes Gull and makes a bit of fun of her quite a bit but Is fair.

I am in the chat part now of his show and he said she is very kind and considerate to the horse and you know, that really says a lot. Since attending he can see that. As to their needs, what they may need, etc.

So just a bit of an aside and most judges are the bit i've ever seen because that is really what it comes down to. And I don't mean in bIas either, I mean these are the people giving up their time, they do believe in their civic duty, etc.

He's actually there now. He tried to attend one other time but the hearings got delayed.
Horse? What horse?
 
That account I quoted was misleading and just shows the differences regarding the reporting. It was someone called Melissa anyway.

It's just annoying that after waiting all this time for the case to come to court, we have to rely on piecemeal reporting, rather than follow the court proceedings ourselves. Sorry for any wrong interpretations I made there.
I am ticked every single day we can't watch this and as I always say it isn't JUST for the reason I/we want to see it either. I just think it's wrong and the public has a right to know what is going on in our system and to see it. Of course back in the "olden days" there were not the options there now, but they exist now and have for some time and it's time they get with it and start being accountable to the people and public. I mean she did not allow an overflow room, voice recorders or ANYTHING.

I can watch the BEST coverage and I still sit there knowing the person was there and could see it and is trying to portray it to us but it isn't the same at all.

I'm annoyed too, irked, ticked, pizzed off over it and shall remain that way.

I don't know if the account you quoted was misleading, I don't recall but I guess as we go and we have barely started, we will likely see what sources seem to be better than some others. It was a Melissa but she is Becky's sister. And they weren't together but encountered each other and then were. I'd guess once the clothing was found that people searching started focusing on a maybe more narrowed down area once they heard that.

You know Tom even had a few times, he was like what was he referring to with his notes and it just shows the struggle they are all having and that just irritates me again. I'm a broken record but again, why couldn't she herself or the court do a VOICE even recording each day and give them all a freaking tape? There is absolutely nothing about that that is risky or any riskier than letting all who attend report from memory each day.

We've but had a taste. One day and then a short half a day. This week is going to test them all royally.

I was watching something yesterday at break, didn't see it all, but two reporters I believe from the same channel, NBC or maybe the local affiliate? The W one, not sure... And the female reporter coudn't get a seat until afternoon and then he didn't have one so they both were giving accounts, even to each other, of different witnesses, because only one in each case saw certain ones. It's absolutely ridiculous.

When I am trying to be more fair, I guess my thought is she (Gull) just is taking absolutely NO CHANCES of anything going wrong after all this in this case, BUT I'm a true believer of lkac of info breeds more speculation and false rumor. However, to be fair we did see how many won't play by the rules of any kind anyhow--how many cameras, etc. did they have to confiscate? And it is people like that (MSM even) and the ones who wrecked it when she did allow cameras (talk has it it was Court TV) that help cause this and are going to make it worse in the future imo and ruin it further.

Anyhow, I can complain about it as I have and will again for sure LOL but it doesn't change it, sigh... I guess one thing it will show us is who does the best when they can't rely on staff and devices and she to rely on their own memories, notes and/or working as a team to cover something this big better than others...

If I lived in IN and Gull was on the ballot, I might truly not vote for her due to this decision on coverage. However, on the other hand, I would because she has actually really had one heckuva case and bunch of b.s. to handle and has done so instead of going running like the predecessor...
 
Pat Brown was with Melissa Marchand who ran off to call police. This is a straightforward account of Day 2 testimonies plus a link within the article to Day 1, as well.

this too says he picked up his daughter at 11 and then got a call and so I can see where any account could leave someone thinking the daughter was with him when he went back to search. it isn't reven reporters faults really, it I just one of those sentences that if one didn't know she didn't feel well and he picked her up and took her home, you'd assume maybe she was with him.

I gather as well that, not covered that much, Baldwin is asking a lot of questions about voices including about Libby's and Abby's voices to their family members... And their ways. And of course what the searchers could hear, etc... Some are noticing what seems to be a focus on even the girls' voices. For instance, Abby's mom said generally her daughter's voice was high.

Anyhow, that and some other things, there were more questions asked of some than has been covered in most news too. I get it, and I mean they are giving fuller accounts in most cases than the hearings were, but they aren't going to cover every last thing and that's where people like Tom who will go nightly with ALL his notes do that. I don't think thought any others are, like Aspen, MS. He ran into Lawyer Lee and met her in line and said she seemed nice but I'd be surprised if she is doing an every night show either and I seriously doubt she is. She does plan on attending throughout. And some will come to it after and when they finally get time to sit down and do such.

He's going to probably be pushed on time to attend and then do such each night and get back the next day for weeks, etc. He already said the hand was cramping with taking notes fast as one can.
We are going to get coverage but it will be nothing like seeing or hearing it all except for those that try to cover it all and we won't in real time by a long shot, but he is trying to do that.

I HOPE to keep up with all his nightlies and read what is said or linked here and that's probably the most I will manage.

This week should start getting into a lot of the bigger stuff I'd imagine. And whoever today's witness is, and think the next two are, is/are to be lengthy witnesses as to time on the stand...
 
Horse? What horse?
Heck if I know. What the he77? The only time I've thought about a horse in this case is when I'm thinking I'm beating a dead horse to keep going on about the lack of cameras, etc. over and over again. I don't know if the computer did that or I did. There are totally normal words it won't let me type or not capitalize that I don't want capitalized, etc.

Of course I meant the jury lol. Not spelled anything close to alike nor have any similar meanings...
 
Listening to more of the chat part of tom's this morning and yes, Brown's phone worked five feet from the bodies and that had a juror asking what company he had, or Gull asking. Etc. And as Tom said, Libby's phone was AT&T he believed. Brown's was Verizon per him.

I can tell you which one worked better at our location, and by the way it was the same in our campground location, totally different county, different rural location, and mine worked better than any of our adult kids who were all things like AT&T, etc. and I was Verizon.

I don't know that that means anything.

However, my other point is yes, he called Mullin I'm pretty sure from there on finding the girls and there will be record of this I'd bet on. While the sister of Becky took off to probably 1) get away from what she saw; 2) to tell others and relay it; and 3) to call people from her phone. I THINK yelling was also perhaps going on once able to that they found them. So all a bit simultaneous...
 
Tom says, if correct, RA's daughter has not been there so any thought in the sketch artist stuff that a couple are the daughter and her husband is likely incorrect.

I would think they'd be called, at least the daughter, to the stand, but perhaps will only do that when called and not be present otherwise.

he says RA's mom, wife, a woman he thinks is wife's sister as looks a lot like her... Two or three other women not sure who they are on their side he thinks. Mike and Becky and Kelsi and Libby's mom were there, and an aunt, and I'm thinking they may mean Becky's sister same one who was searching. Then for Abby he thinks on Saturday, it was her mom's parents/so Abby's grandparents and he didn't think Anna was there that day.

And you know that brings me again back to lack of coverage or live coverage or recording. FAMILY members should be able to see when they can or remotely etc. if not able to attend and some often are in other states (any case, not just this one), can't face it every day, etc.
 
Okay. Here's some nitty gritty. Tom is only booked through another week at the moment and is giving the issues about deciding.

First he stood in line since the night before to get in the first day, etc. Cold too., people started lining up at 8 the night before, he got there at 9 or 9:30 I think he said. the NIGHT before. And he got in, BUT then no one knew for the afternoon session all would have to requeue and might not get back in. Pretty freaking ridiculous. I have already heard something similar from the two reporter fromt the same channel. Once in, there is not even a guarantee for the rest of the day or after break.

So the first time he was in line for like 11 hours and got in for the first day but that was only 9 a.m. to noon after all of that. Then he tried to sleep in his car at lunch, and then he got back in line for the second half and the person in front of him was the last person let in...

This IS ridiculous!!!!!

So he is saying if he was guaranteed to get in, or even get back in each day, he'd maybe stay but he's undecided. he said so many are appreciating his covering it more fully and being there and doing nightlies that he'd like to but you can even be guaranteed once in you will be in for the whole day.

I mean Gull really did it up with this one didn't she...

He's not decided yet but I get it, you can stay and go and stand in line forever but then you aren't guaranteed and then once in your place can't be counted on if you want it all day.

FLIPPING RIDICULOUS. of course he isn't traditional media but I heard an account of the same from media. The one was in in the morning but couldn't get back in in the afternoon, God forbid the go report or get some lunch or pee. I am taking that to mean only if they themselves stay in their seat will they have such for the afternoon.

Yeah, I'm still and again going on about these decisions on coverage. It is even beyond what we thought.

Well I have to work but a full day head of trial for those that can follow today.
 
Anyhow he is booked for this full first week yet and going to see how it goes and how getting into both the morning and afternoon sessions this week goes before deciding if staying for all. Can't blame him. Sounds pretty ridiculous.
 
Listening to more of the chat part of tom's this morning and yes, Brown's phone worked five feet from the bodies and that had a juror asking what company he had, or Gull asking. Etc. And as Tom said, Libby's phone was AT&T he believed. Brown's was Verizon per him.

I can tell you which one worked better at our location, and by the way it was the same in our campground location, totally different county, different rural location, and mine worked better than any of our adult kids who were all things like AT&T, etc. and I was Verizon.

I don't know that that means anything.

However, my other point is yes, he called Mullin I'm pretty sure from there on finding the girls and there will be record of this I'd bet on. While the sister of Becky took off to probably 1) get away from what she saw; 2) to tell others and relay it; and 3) to call people from her phone. I THINK yelling was also perhaps going on once able to that they found them. So all a bit simultaneous...
Yes one of the other witnesses on the other side of the creek said he could hear Pat Brown across the creek. That is interesting to know that sound carries easily from the CS across the creek to the bridge. I think this indicates that whatever happened that day, happened quickly, as later people on the trails and bridge heard nothing and neither did Libby's father when he got there to meet them. It was a very well concealed spot too, which RA must have been very familiar with to lead them there IMO.
 
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Yes one of the other witnesses on the other side of the creek said he could hear Pat Brown across the creek. That is interesting to know that sound carries easily from the CS across the creek to the bridge. I think this indicates that whatever happened that day, happened quickly, as later people on the trails and bridge heard nothing and neither did Libby's father when he got there to meet them. It was a very well concealed spot too, which RA must have been very familiar with to lead them there IMO.
Sound is often directed by the wind. When the wind is from the south, I can hear the traffic and trains. When the wind is from the north, I can't hear either.
 
Sound is often directed by the wind. When the wind is from the south, I can hear the traffic and trains. When the wind is from the north, I can't hear either.
What if there's no wind?

Sound carries more across water. So across the creek for example as there are no trees.

I live near two military defence areas but they are both between 10 or 20 miles away in different directions, across a large open stretch of sea. The noise of guns and bombs travels across this water regardless of wind direction and then you hear an echo as it bounces back when it hits against hills and cliffs. Sound waves are similar to waves/ripples when you drop a stone in water and they go in a circle. Traffic noise may be different, as it comes from moving objects as well.
 
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