Who is the LONG ISLAND SERIAL KILLER? *ARREST JULY 2023*

Who is the Long Island serial killer? This is a general discussion thread about this terrifying case.

Who is the Long Island Serial Killer?

The Long Island serial killer (also referred to as LISK, the Gilgo Beach Killer or the Craigslist Ripper) is an unidentified suspected serial killer who is believed to have murdered 10 to 16 people over a period of nearly 20 years.

www.crimewatchers.net

MEMBER'S ONLY DISCUSSION/DOCUMENTS: https://www.crimewatchers.net/threa...other-sensitive-information.3498/#post-226869

 

[GrandmaBear]

Age 36 is not later in life to have a baby IMO. (If she is 95 and he is 59 that is only 36 years different.)

I think the risk of a Down's syndrome child is greater with older mums.

Nowadays it isn't but back then I'd beg to differ, that was almost considered past childbearing years or more risky. I was born around his time (ugh) but my mom was 20 years younger than my dad. Of course in particular Catholics some kept going and yes over the years it was though risky past 30 even somewhat and Down's Syndrome and other things definitely and so forth. The pill came about as an option to sterilization formerly about the only thing other than abstinence. In comparison until maybe the last decade it was thought not wise to go past 30. I have a sister that took that to total heart and I've seen others do the same.

I'm not saying even that it means anything and of course it isn't unheard of BUT he could have been a tagalong as I've said. One child they had and years behind that he comes along unexpectedly. There are only two here from what I've heard. Or the parents didn't marry until in their 30s or have kids until mid 30s or some such. It isn't unheard of no doubt but we only have a two child family here and his dad died when he was 11? And what was he? Some aerospace engineer per Crybaby? We could have parents who were just focused more on careers and married and had kids later in life. I don't know but am curious.

He goes for awhile in life too and one marriage before he has one child.

To put it simply he seems to hate women.

I suspect there is some root to this all. Not an EXCUSE but a root. Some resentment here somewhere, some abuse, some lack of something. Again not an EXCUSE but some reason he could go this far... At its most simple I guess he could have also been a spoiled rotten brat and prostitutes were beneath him but why the need to kill.

I don't know and much we don't know yet but I just suspect these things are going to come into play at least with psych experts etc.

We don't even know about his dad's death. Why is that? It shouldn't take long for people out there to dig that up. Was it natural causes? Expected? Not expected? For some one with the career his dad had it had to be known about and an obit and articles published one would think...

 

[Guess Who]

Nowadays it isn't but back then I'd beg to differ, that was almost considered past childbearing years or more risky. I was born around his time (ugh) but my mom was 20 years younger than my dad. Of course in particular Catholics some kept going and yes over the years it was though risky past 30 even somewhat and Down's Syndrome and other things definitely and so forth. The pill came about as an option to sterilization formerly about the only thing other than abstinence. In comparison until maybe the last decade it was thought not wise to go past 30. I have a sister that took that to total heart and I've seen others do the same.

I'm not saying even that it means anything and of course it isn't unheard of BUT he could have been a tagalong as I've said. One child they had and years behind that he comes along unexpectedly. There are only two here from what I've heard. Or the parents didn't marry until in their 30s or have kids until mid 30s or some such. It isn't unheard of no doubt but we only have a two child family here and his dad died when he was 11? And what was he? Some aerospace engineer per Crybaby? We could have parents who were just focused more on careers and married and had kids later in life. I don't know but am curious.

He goes for awhile in life too and one marriage before he has one child.

To put it simply he seems to hate women.

I suspect there is some root to this all. Not an EXCUSE but a root. Some resentment here somewhere, some abuse, some lack of something. Again not an EXCUSE but some reason he could go this far... At its most simple I guess he could have also been a spoiled rotten brat and prostitutes were beneath him but why the need to kill.

I don't know and much we don't know yet but I just suspect these things are going to come into play at least with psych experts etc.

We don't even know about his dad's death. Why is that? It shouldn't take long for people out there to dig that up. Was it natural causes? Expected? Not expected? For some one with the career his dad had it had to be known about and an obit and articles published one would think...

My mom was nearly that age when she had me and close enough to that same time and while not common, it was far from uncommon. Especially from the families that had lots of kids.

 

[GrandmaBear]

My mom was nearly that age when she had me and close enough to that same time and while not common, it was far from uncommon. Especially from the families that had lots of kids.

I agree. But they didn't have a big family. He has one brother or so we've heard. I also come from an older dad, not mom, and have four older sibs or had (two are passed). But it's not what I'm saying really. It isn't unheard of and wasn't. And I'm sure Mel will pipe in as being an only and what age her parents are, I knew all that with you, with her, with me as I was saying it, etc.

My sister and I came along because my dad's first wife died young and my mom had no children of her own. I certainly am not judging it. I'm wondering in HIS case but I too come from a larger family, blended but larger. And we all know families from the era (and it is exactly my era, I think you are younger) that had even a dozen natural kids because again no birth control, just going with it, etc. and if the parents had a decent marriage and ahem slept together, there was going to be a pregnancy each year BUT that isn't the case in his family. Of course there could have been reasons or difficulty getting pregnant, etc. and I'm NOT INTERESTED IN ALL THAT just more so how he felt growing up and IF he was perhaps a tagalong, etc. or kids were incidental to the parents and so forth...

My aunt had two in her 40s which WAS very unusual and those two and her older boys are I think 20 plus years apart. This aunt WANTED to do that and her doctor and all others thought it was pretty darned risky and I think those two are four years apart so we go from somewhere in the 40s to late 40s.

But again that's a subject in itself. I said in my original post it wasn't unheard of etc. even as you said with larger families and I mentioned Catholics, same thing I meant, they didn't do birth control and while I come from a family of eight some of them had 12 or more. I sure don't envy those that did. But again it isn't what I'm getting at. I am wondering at the two that were had here and we don't know his brother's age or his dad's age but supposedly mom is 95. And he kind of repeated the pattern. His daughter is what 25, 2i6? And her grandma is 95. Wow. My great grandparents were younger than that. on BOTH sides and my dad was 39 when he had me.

 

[RoundPeg]

My mom was nearly that age when she had me and close enough to that same time and while not common, it was far from uncommon. Especially from the families that had lots of kids.

I'm 60. My mom is 97. I'm lost on what assumptions are being made on geriatric pregnancies (which is what they're called now). My daughter had at least one geriatric pregnancy and the baby is showing no criminal tendencies lol.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'm not trying to take it into a yes it isn't unheard of thing, I said that already. I am talking of what was the deal in his family. And mom made it through to thirty what was it before having him in an era where birth control was just coming to be etc. and no other kids and it also depends on his brother's age but there were years there was either no sex until she was older or years after. If parents had an active sex life there was a kid every or or for sure every two. I'd really like to know the brother's age for this very reason.

And I'm just saying it can make or be evidence of a not close marriage.. I care less about the details other than how it pertains to this perp. Also he had two marriage and one child and he is 59 and seems to be a serial killer. He also had his daughter in his mid 30s. Again not unheard of but pretty similar to his folks...

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'm 60. My mom is 97. I'm lost on what assumptions are being made on geriatric pregnancies (which is what they're called now). My daughter had at least one geriatric pregnancy and the baby is showing no criminal tendencies lol.

That certainly is not what I am getting at at all. And have tried to explain. Never heard of a geriatric pregnancy in my life nor made connections between having a child in older years that has criminal tendencies I have also explained further. I am wondering about HIM and his parents and if he was a tagalong etc.

Hope it's in humor because I certainly was saying no such thing. I had uncles the same age as my brothers. My mom's mom was closer in age to my dad than my mom. I certainly am not saying things that relate to anything like that.

I have no killers in mine, nor do you, nor does @Guess Who etc. HE though IS allegedly one and they DO have one in their family. I'm not even saying the family did it, because I don't believe in excuses by childhood, I am wondering how he FELT and how he was raised, treated, etc.

 

[GrandmaBear]

his mom and dad weren't very sexually active if no problem reproducing let's just put another fact that way. or there'd be more than two children from those years. and that's indicative of perhaps not a close relationship that he grew up with until all of eleven years of age.

 

[GrandmaBear]

IF they were even a couple or married or together when dad died. We don't know that either.

 

[Guess Who]

I agree. But they didn't have a big family. He has one brother or so we've heard. I also come from an older dad, not mom, and have four older sibs or had (two are passed). But it's not what I'm saying really. It isn't unheard of and wasn't. And I'm sure Mel will pipe in as being an only and what age her parents are, I knew all that with you, with her, with me as I was saying it, etc.

My sister and I came along because my dad's first wife died young and my mom had no children of her own. I certainly am not judging it. I'm wondering in HIS case but I too come from a larger family, blended but larger. And we all know families from the era (and it is exactly my era, I think you are younger) that had even a dozen natural kids because again no birth control, just going with it, etc. and if the parents had a decent marriage and ahem slept together, there was going to be a pregnancy each year BUT that isn't the case in his family. Of course there could have been reasons or difficulty getting pregnant, etc. and I'm NOT INTERESTED IN ALL THAT just more so how he felt growing up and IF he was perhaps a tagalong, etc. or kids were incidental to the parents and so forth...

My aunt had two in her 40s which WAS very unusual and those two and her older boys are I think 20 plus years apart. This aunt WANTED to do that and her doctor and all others thought it was pretty darned risky and I think those two are four years apart so we go from somewhere in the 40s to late 40s.

But again that's a subject in itself. I said in my original post it wasn't unheard of etc. even as you said with larger families and I mentioned Catholics, same thing I meant, they didn't do birth control and while I come from a family of eight some of them had 12 or more. I sure don't envy those that did. But again it isn't what I'm getting at. I am wondering at the two that were had here and we don't know his brother's age or his dad's age but supposedly mom is 95. And he kind of repeated the pattern. His daughter is what 25, 2i6? And her grandma is 95. Wow. My great grandparents were younger than that. on BOTH sides and my dad was 39 when he had me.

We didn't have a big family, either. Just two kids. I have many family members close to my age with parents that were in their 30s and I went to school with many that had parents even older than mine.

 

[Guess Who]

his mom and dad weren't very sexually active if no problem reproducing let's just put another fact that way. or there'd be more than two children from those years. and that's indicative of perhaps not a close relationship that he grew up with until all of eleven years of age.

Many couples had fertility issues then, too. Why is this an assumption that they didn't have sex? I don't get it. My sister and I were 10 years apart and my kids are 10 years apart.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Maybe dad was into prostitutes too. Who knows. All I know is two kids over we don't know how many years of mom and dad together. Heck I'm not even sure we know that they were ever married. Just this kind of thing I am wondering about. I guess we could all share our own details but that isn't the point, he is the serial killer and I'm talking of the era. Yes small families were generally indicative of a few things, maybe problems with getting pregnant, maybe problems with delivery, etc. would be he reason for that, otherwise it would be indicative of a not close relationship and to put it bluntly intercourse with your husband and not have a child every year or so unless there were issues. And then you'd likely have none, not two. It also could be a brief relationship of a few years.

Wasn't a problem in my family, my mom and dad I think (know) had a very healthy relationship and she was glad for birth control when it became available... My sister and I are about a year and a half apart, us last two and there would probably be how many more if not for birth control and it became available right about such time.

But again I'm not debating all that, I am wondering about his issues and his family.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

Is five hours too long ago:

 

[GrandmaBear]

Many couples had fertility issues then, too. Why is this an assumption that they didn't have sex? I don't get it. My sister and I were 10 years apart and my kids are 10 years apart.

I'm pretty sure you aren't my age. I'm not talking of people with fertility problems and if not mistaken think I said UNLESS that. We are talking of a serial killer who killed PROSTITUTES and looked up torture porn, pedo porn and more. Clearly he has something warped in him when it comes to women AND rape, etc. He comes from an era when there was NO birth control to speak of other than abstinence or sterilization. People with fertility problems were also largely screwed in that era and didn't end up having two kids.

Psychologists will definitely center for years to decades on looking at these things when they start to be known or come out. The man may be warped just in his own right but chances are his childhood helped SHAPE him as they sometimes find. HE77 we don't even know how his mother supported him and his brother after his dad died. We also don't even know that he tells the truth of his dad being an aerospace guy, etc. OR that he was even present in their home or married to their mother. I've heard none of this confirmed have you?

You can go ahead and turn my words from my very first post about this on what I meant to our own family examples, etc. but we aren't the ones with an arrested and charged serial killer in our families. I am simply taking my era and what was going on at the time and trying to intuit his childhood with two children and not more, how long they were married, IF they were married, etc.

My mother was excited when the pill came along and don't get me wrong she loved us. My aunt and uncle loved each other but let me tell you she was not getting pregnant again and there were few ways not to. He77 all women I think were excited and the Catholic women I'm sure many were jealous. Different generation but I had a sister who married Catholic and converted and she could NOT use birth control. Again all of this has NOTHING to do with other families, I am wondering about these things with HIS.

I also know you know that and are having fun at this and that's fine but letting you know I'm well aware of the fact it's intentional

There is the possibility with his that his mother had himself and his brother and then came the pill. That's what happened in my family. My sister and I are a year and a half apart which is very similar to many families one about that often at least for years on end before that. The older four in my family had a different mother, she died at 30 and my dad then married my mother. They are one year apart three of them with the youngest of those three being two plus years apart I think and of course allow for nine months of pregnancy in all. Of course there was no birth control in those years. Well, sterilization.

You're too young to remember what I do and I can remember much talk of it and the effect. Most families we knew? We were the last children and most of us were the youngest unless someone missed a pill and we saw that too. I can name families (won't name them, I mean know of many). Before that, with no problem with fertility, if there was a long gap, you can about bet there was no sex. Often for THAT reason. And people KNEW that was a pretty safe bet. With certain types of men it probably sent them elsewhere, to prostitutes maybe. And that's what we have here with a son. So to me it is certainly something to wonder about. They are a two child family because it was right at that time birth control came along with access here in the US a few years after Crybaby (at least where we were) or....

I am the age that most families around us in our community of people's last children or more so, my sister is, all right in that range as women started getting on birth control over those years. And then a few families had a tagalong... Catholic families kept growing but others stopped growing. And from thereon parents could pretty much plan how many for the most part and then stop having kids.

Crybaby Shrek has serious twisted issues. Maybe all this has nothing to do with it but he sure doesn't do normal. Well he does. He got married and had one kid. And spent most of his time elsewhere and seeking out prostitutes AND then killing them. With the little known, there is a lot of centering on his dad dying so far by psychs. I think of the era because I know the era and years after. I think it hit emu right away and myself that he is our age basically.

And I know you are not our age.

We are the tail end/fringe of the BABY BOOM. Uhm, why do you think that is?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Man just give her a day or two and she gets and does the best shows. She is so thorough and goes through all things and sources and has her own and pulls the best things from all and then puts it together so well.

 

[GrandmaBear]

She does such a great job. She has footage outside the home of the search, drone footage and so much more. Some was provided by a viewer of hers that went that was of the area. A Suffolk County truck that is tow and recovery with a wrapped vehicle on it, and more. Didn't know counties had trucks like this, I don't think ours does but who knows.

When one can't keep up or watch everything, she is sooo good to watch for a thorough put together show on all that matters.

 

[RoundPeg]

The News & Reporter has obtained a search warrant that was executed in relation to property owned in Chester County by accused New York Serial killer Rex Heuermann.
The warrant listed a dark green 2002 Chevrolet Avalanche as a "person, place or thing" to be searched. The truck is registered to Rex's brother Craig Heuermann of Rippling Brooke Drive, Chester and was subsequently removed from the property. The warrant states that the truck is believed to have "contraband, evidence or instrumentalities regarding the charge of...murder in the first degree (New York State), murder in the second degree (New York State), patronizing a person for prostitution in the third degree (New York State) and conspiracy to commit said offenses." The vehicle, once obtained, was to be transported to Suffolk County, NY and searched forensically. Authorities began surveillance of the Rippling Brooke Drive location at 10:50 p.m. on July 13 (shortly after Rex Heuermann was arrested in New York) and the warrant said authorities knew the vehicle was present at the location, with state and federal authorities aiding the Chester County Sheriff's Office in taking custody of it. The truck is listed as having been taken into custody.
Under "property sought" on the warrant, authorities put a lengthy list of items, many of which are listed as "trophies" which are personal items belonging to murder victims. That was to include their phones, articles of clothing, jewelry, identification, notebooks, ledgers, Bibles, personal effects and or photographs or recordings depicting the victims. Also sought were forensic and/or trace evidence, including DNA obtainable through fingernails, toenails, animal hair or fur, human hair and human skin fibers, bodily fluids as well as any latent fingerprints and palm prints. These things can be found on "furniture, mattresses, carpets, rugs, flooring, animal cages, crates, litters, playpens, beds, towers, steps (or) clothing." Electronic devices or computers in all their forms are listed on the warrant, along with any records, whether they be physical or electronic in nature. Other property sought is "any documents relating to the recent occupation/renting/tenancy/purchasing of known instrumentalities utilized in the designated offenses." This could include mail, bills or other similarly situated documents.Broadly, the warrant also mentions "any of the known instrumentalities involved in the commission of the designated offenses including...burlap (the remains of at least one of Heuermann's alleged victims was discovered wrapped in burlap), camouflage burlap fabric, 'jute-like' fabric, hunting blinds, restraints, belts, textile yarns, polyester fibers, cotton fibers," or any variety of tape. Other "trophy" items are listed separately, including condoms, cut distal ends of black leather belts, devices utilized to stamp letters onto leather goods, knives, scissors, cutting implements and "Bounty paper towels specifically from the Bounty Modern Print Collection." Firearms, magazines, cases, ammunition, bullet fragments and shell casings were listed as were "locked rooms, storage areas, vaults, cabinets, safes, closets, containers (including strong boxes, desks, drawers, suitcases, briefcases, boxes, hidden compartments or other such enclosures where items can be kept, hidden or secreted."
The warrant was signed on Friday.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ySynjcPqbtjC8FL4DwuUPdH6m4LyQeY6LET4zfzjiZd6WRKEBCp42VrU5dHFtmmQl&id=100063574780393&mibextid=9R9pXO

 

[Kimster]

Re Delphi, not as far as I know but he confessed to her and his mother over the phone so she may be a witness for the prosecution because of that.

Then she can’t be compelled to testify because they’re married. In this case, they can subpoena RHs wife, once she becomes his ex, all day long.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Then she can’t be compelled to testify because they’re married. In this case, they can subpoena RHs wife, once she becomes his ex, all day long.

She can choose to though. That is if she gets her head on straight. Not a nice comment but I mean come on she needs to realize she has to ptorect herself whether she stands by him OR NOT or all can be lost if it isn't already.

Clarifying that this post is about Richard Allen's wife, not the serial killer in this thread.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The News & Reporter has obtained a search warrant that was executed in relation to property owned in Chester County by accused New York Serial killer Rex Heuermann.
The warrant listed a dark green 2002 Chevrolet Avalanche as a "person, place or thing" to be searched. The truck is registered to Rex's brother Craig Heuermann of Rippling Brooke Drive, Chester and was subsequently removed from the property. The warrant states that the truck is believed to have "contraband, evidence or instrumentalities regarding the charge of...murder in the first degree (New York State), murder in the second degree (New York State), patronizing a person for prostitution in the third degree (New York State) and conspiracy to commit said offenses." The vehicle, once obtained, was to be transported to Suffolk County, NY and searched forensically. Authorities began surveillance of the Rippling Brooke Drive location at 10:50 p.m. on July 13 (shortly after Rex Heuermann was arrested in New York) and the warrant said authorities knew the vehicle was present at the location, with state and federal authorities aiding the Chester County Sheriff's Office in taking custody of it. The truck is listed as having been taken into custody.
Under "property sought" on the warrant, authorities put a lengthy list of items, many of which are listed as "trophies" which are personal items belonging to murder victims. That was to include their phones, articles of clothing, jewelry, identification, notebooks, ledgers, Bibles, personal effects and or photographs or recordings depicting the victims. Also sought were forensic and/or trace evidence, including DNA obtainable through fingernails, toenails, animal hair or fur, human hair and human skin fibers, bodily fluids as well as any latent fingerprints and palm prints. These things can be found on "furniture, mattresses, carpets, rugs, flooring, animal cages, crates, litters, playpens, beds, towers, steps (or) clothing." Electronic devices or computers in all their forms are listed on the warrant, along with any records, whether they be physical or electronic in nature. Other property sought is "any documents relating to the recent occupation/renting/tenancy/purchasing of known instrumentalities utilized in the designated offenses." This could include mail, bills or other similarly situated documents.Broadly, the warrant also mentions "any of the known instrumentalities involved in the commission of the designated offenses including...burlap (the remains of at least one of Heuermann's alleged victims was discovered wrapped in burlap), camouflage burlap fabric, 'jute-like' fabric, hunting blinds, restraints, belts, textile yarns, polyester fibers, cotton fibers," or any variety of tape. Other "trophy" items are listed separately, including condoms, cut distal ends of black leather belts, devices utilized to stamp letters onto leather goods, knives, scissors, cutting implements and "Bounty paper towels specifically from the Bounty Modern Print Collection." Firearms, magazines, cases, ammunition, bullet fragments and shell casings were listed as were "locked rooms, storage areas, vaults, cabinets, safes, closets, containers (including strong boxes, desks, drawers, suitcases, briefcases, boxes, hidden compartments or other such enclosures where items can be kept, hidden or secreted."
The warrant was signed on Friday.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ySynjcPqbtjC8FL4DwuUPdH6m4LyQeY6LET4zfzjiZd6WRKEBCp42VrU5dHFtmmQl&id=100063574780393&mibextid=9R9pXO

Bounty Modern Print Collection paper towels. Interesting. However, the chances of recovering such probably would have been better way back when these crimes occurred but who knows...

Thoughts by anyone of the devices utilized to stamp letters onto leather goods? It would seem along with parts of belts that maybe he was leaving a signature??? Maybe each time?

Then they found the one with the letters W H which it IS said there is a William I believe. Was that his father. Was this all being done in the name of his father and then he left the real belt? Am I thinking wrong here??? WTH?

I find it odd that nothing yet is known about his father other than he died when he was 11. I certainly haven't come across anything and people have had some time to dig now... Granted I haven't had a lot of time, has anyone else heard anything?

Not a surprising list in the search warrant but these are two things that jumped out at me as notable...

 

[Tresir]

Interesting. If you click on the first picture in this, I did to see it bigger, it takes you to Fox News but and while a similar article, way more pictures. In one the daughter has a different sweater on or jacket. Is this the son? Carrying A & W root beer it looks like. I could go into the pictures some but that's the surface side of people, me included, that want to discuss the nitty gritty sometimes. Wife has a cane. Victoria likes mixing colors, etc. I don't think it's even been confirmed that the son is a stepson has it? Daughter changing top sweater or adding one, etc. Dumb stuff like what is the box she is carrying, what did they buy? He didn't get the root beer at Best Buy did he? Anyhow, the piddly stuff that probably doesn't matter but that is gotten into just as most, myself included, have gotten into how Lori Vallow looks, whether she has access to makeup, how bad her jail lipstick is and how she curls her hair etc.

I say all that to come to the couple of bigger points here (but Fox does have more pics of them) and more of an article.

First, in one of the articles or both, whatever, it says all were at home in Massapequa when officers came as Rex was taken down or just after ensuring he couldn't call or warn anyone, simulatneous almost, coordinated. Why? I mean I guess I am wondering if both adult children still lived at home and the wife too and this was not unusual? I never would have thought this likely that all would be there. I figured it more likely close to the time or day, they were all found, taken in to be told what was about to occur and telling and ensuring where all were and bringing them together as his arrest was executed about the same time. That would explain them all being home and we had no reason I know of to even think the son or daughter lived there.

Second, her hairs were found INSIDE the camo? That is the other takeaway I have. I believe both articles said this. But I think the article linked here was taking most of their article from Fox, etc. Clearly the linked one sensationalizes a bit and made the headline, etc. to hint at was she involved. Maybe more than a bit.

As to the divorce, yeah, she'd better be covering herself and saving anything she can and just due to the hairs, distancing herself from him with a clear divide. Do I believe they haven't talked? No. And didn't it say uncontested? And that could save assets to help with his defense, assets that should maybe go to victim settlements...

If all of them lived at home together and always have then I have a different set of questions and leaning than I would if not. All were at home when cops showed up... I do think again this could have been coordinated so that would be the case, but no one knows...

The bit I quoted said that she wasn't at home when the murders were committed. The police have already determined this, I guess, so he was home alone.

"investigators stated that she had been traveling to Maryland, New Jersey, and Iceland during the suspected murders of the sex workers"

I thought her hair was inside the camo and actually on the tape around the body/bodies.