Crimes by the Justice System and Police

GrandmaBear said:
Oh boy. Thought there was one post here and see there's more.

Lol.

I crashed early, I ached.

Here's the interesting one. Steven Avery. Proved wrongly convicted and innocent supposedly but then later he committed a similar crime. Curious to see what you think of that one @Cousin Dupree . My daughter even saw that one and asked me what I thought. IT was my home state. Did prison turn him into what they falsely accused him of being?

I'm serious. Not being sarcastic in any manner. That's a strange one.

Of course there will always be things we never heard nor never know. I always try to remember that. Even with discovery,etc. or FOIA, some things just aren't allowed in, etc. But that's a different subject. I don't mean it to relate to this and is a bit of a sidetrack. But what I mean is like juvenile records and other things. Former crimes. Etc. Another subject though so I'll leave that there. Coffeed up now. Seeing chiro this afternoon.
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I don't know much about Avery's original conviction, but I'm certain he killed that woman.
 
Cousin Dupree said:
I don't know much about Avery's original conviction, but I'm certain he killed that woman.
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It's pretty interesting. Been a long time since I've watched it but did see it many times but back when. Some think the cops somehow framed him the second time too. I don't see how they could have without some believing in a beyond fantastic bunch of things.

It makes one wonder too about whether he was truly innocent the first time although he was cleared after some time in prison... And then he stupidly loses his freedom killing her. It's almost beyond comprehension but is a good example I think of do we really know...

I kept thinking did he think he was immune and now could do such because they'd cleared him... It's almost beyond belief. I can't fathom why he'd do such a thing if he wasn't someone who already did such things and was that way but again he was cleared of the first. Eventually.

If you don't know of it and don't want to watch it, give a read. I'm sure wiki and other places likely have the story too.

He was no choir boy whatsoever. DNA cleared him plus he was supposedly 40 miles away with alibis. The woman who picked him out of a lineup as her attacker I believe even apologized to him if I recall, thinking she must have had it wrong. I tell you, I don't know... He then turned around and carried one out all the way through murder... I think if they got something wrong it may well have been his release and exoneration. It's a tough one to fathom.

I read just a bit of this. Didn't seem to have all like the woman asking forgiveness(!) but then I didn't read it all as I've seen it more than enough times.

Steven Avery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Tresir said:
They are two examples you are always quoting.

Which cases on this thread do you want us to look at? It seems you havent read them all by your responses.
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What? This thread is about a few things. Railroaded people are part of it. Are you saying that Logan was Railroaded? Do you think the WM3 weren't Railroaded?
 
Cousin Dupree said:
What? This thread is about a few things. Railroaded people are part of it. Are you saying that Logan was Railroaded? Do you think the WM3 weren't Railroaded?
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Tresir speaks very well for herself so I can only guess, and she can correct me if wrong, but I think we all know, or most do, you think RA was wrongfully accused and RL should have been prosecuted. In all niceness, you've made that abundantly clear.

Just an educated guess as to what she meant. Again, she can say for herself but that's the way I took her post. Just about cases you think wrongdoing went on in.

And my gues is you know that too, the way it was meant.

But again I may be wrong and she can set us straight on what she meant. Not speaking for her but that's how I took it.
 
GrandmaBear said:
Tresir speaks very well for herself so I can only guess, and she can correct me if wrong, but I think we all know, or most do, you think RA was wrongfully accused and RL should have been prosecuted. In all niceness, you've made that abundantly clear.

Just an educated guess as to what she meant. Again, she can say for herself but that's the way I took her post. Just about cases you think wrongdoing went on in.

And my gues is you know that too, the way it was meant.

But again I may be wrong and she can set us straight on what she meant. Not speaking for her but that's how I took it.
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No, I don't know that. Yes, I think RL wasn't fully investigated. It seems that you and Tresir believe that framing RA would require too many people to lie for the investigation. Fifteen people called the tip line when the video was released identifying RL as bridge guy.

When a reporter asked him to repeat "Down the hill" he changed his pitch on the word hill.

He deliberately asked his cousin to lie for him. According to the cousin it was the first time RL had ever asked him to do so. Without the lie he's more than capable of having done the crime.

The police stated that more than one person was involved and then walked that back after RA'S arrest.

I also think that some people don't understand how someone can be manipulated, psychologically, into confessing. RA was held in a way no other prisoner had been before or since.

All of that is extremely hinky to me. The FBI thought the Odinism clues deserved greater investigation, but they were asked to abandon the case.

I'm pointing out that it's very easy to get a lot of people to lie. There are multiple examples of that here. In the WM3 case, policeman were asked to go back and rewrite their reports so it would fit the time-line they had to have in order for it to make sense. None of them admitted to doing that
I'm sure the DA was aware of this, but just wanted it to be solved in a way people would believe it.

The kid who confessed has about a 70 IQ. When he would say something that conflicted with the narrative they needed, they'd ask him to rethink it.

The only reason Baldwin agreed to go along with the Alford plea is because they could kill Echols at anytime.

Baldwin wanted to go all the way in exonerating them.

So I don't understand the point of bringing up the WM3. It seems as if she believes they are guilty.

My point is that it's not hard to get a lot of people to lie for an investigation. The same thing is true for the Karen Read case, IMO.

Even when proven factually that they made a mistake or deliberately fudged the evidence, DA's are loath to admit it.

I'll provide proof of that in my next post.
 
People should watch this whole thing. It's 21 minutes. However, if you want to see how loathe prosecutors are to admit mistakes. I was going to point to important times in the video, but they are too numerous. There is even one example from the WM3 case. So I'll just flag the most aggregious one: 10:57 - 11:28.

WARNING: FOUL LANGUAGE!!

 
Cousin Dupree said:
No, I don't know that. Yes, I think RL wasn't fully investigated. It seems that you and Tresir believe that framing RA would require too many people to lie for the investigation. Fifteen people called the tip line when the video was released identifying RL as bridge guy.

When a reporter asked him to repeat "Down the hill" he changed his pitch on the word hill.

He deliberately asked his cousin to lie for him. According to the cousin it was the first time RL had ever asked him to do so. Without the lie he's more than capable of having done the crime.

The police stated that more than one person was involved and then walked that back after RA'S arrest.

I also think that some people don't understand how someone can be manipulated, psychologically, into confessing. RA was held in a way no other prisoner had been before or since.

All of that is extremely hinky to me. The FBI thought the Odinism clues deserved greater investigation, but they were asked to abandon the case.

I'm pointing out that it's very easy to get a lot of people to lie. There are multiple examples of that here. In the WM3 case, policeman were asked to go back and rewrite their reports so it would fit the time-line they had to have in order for it to make sense. None of them admitted to doing that
I'm sure the DA was aware of this, but just wanted it to be solved in a way people would believe it.

The kid who confessed has about a 70 IQ. When he would say something that conflicted with the narrative they needed, they'd ask him to rethink it.

The only reason Baldwin agreed to go along with the Alford plea is because they could kill Echols at anytime.

Baldwin wanted to go all the way in exonerating them.

So I don't understand the point of bringing up the WM3. It seems as if she believes they are guilty.

My point is that it's not hard to get a lot of people to lie for an investigation. The same thing is true for the Karen Read case, IMO.

Even when proven factually that they made a mistake or deliberately fudged the evidence, DA's are loath to admit it.

I'll provide proof of that in my next post.
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You are making wrong assumptions. Dont tell me what i believe, if you don't mind.

So we can only bring up cases you want us too? I thought you would want the WM3 case on here as it is your pet case. I don't know enough about it to discuss it though.

I will await the KR decision in her second trial and we can discuss that on her thread anyway if you think there are miscarriages of justice in that one.

Same with RA - he has been convicted and can apoeal if there are anomalies. You know I disagree about RL and he was removed as a POI after the property search.

What else do you want to discuss ?
 
Tresir said:
You are making wrong assumptions. Dont tell me what i believe, if you don't mind.

So we can only bring up cases you want us too? I thought you would want the WM3 case on here as it is your pet case. I don't know enough about it to discuss it though.

I will await the KR decision in her second trial and we can discuss that on her thread anyway if you think there are miscarriages of justice in that one.

Same with RA - he has been convicted and can apoeal if there are anomalies. You know I disagree about RL and he was removed as a POI after the property search.

What else do you want to discuss ?
Click to expand...

I didn't put words in your mouth. I said it SEEMS like...

I don't understand what you're trying to say? I'm saying that wrongful convictions happen A LOT. What are you trying to say?
 
Cousin Dupree said:
What? This thread is about a few things. Railroaded people are part of it. Are you saying that Logan was Railroaded? Do you think the WM3 weren't Railroaded?
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RL was a POI, then was no longer one after the search. Probably because his gun didnt match the bullet found, which nobody knew about then.

As i said, i don't know enough about the WM3 to discuss that one and i dont have time to take on any more cases at present, but will look at a specific case if you particularly want me to.
 
Cousin Dupree said:
I didn't put words in your mouth. I said it SEEMS like...

I don't understand what you're trying to say? I'm saying that wrongful convictions happen A LOT. What are you trying to say?
Click to expand...
You just seem to want to pick a fight over nothing. I'm not trying to say anything. I am saying it. Why did you tag me initially if you didn't want me to comment?

I mentioned some cases, some of which are already on this thread and now you are having a go at me for some reason.
 
Tresir said:
You just seem to want to pick a fight over nothing. I'm not trying to say anything. I am saying it. Why did you tag me initially if you didn't want me to comment?

I mentioned some cases, some of which are already on this thread and now you are having a go at me for some reason.
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If you aren't trying to say anything, then why are you posting?

I'm trying to show you and GBear that wrongful convictions happen A LOT. You two SEEM to believe otherwise. That's my point.

I'm not having a go at you. I'm trying to show you that Wrongful Convictions are ordinary.
 
Cousin Dupree said:
If you aren't trying to say anything, then why are you posting?

I'm trying to show you and GBear that wrongful convictions happen A LOT. You two SEEM to believe otherwise. That's my point.

I'm not having a go at you. I'm trying to show you that Wrongful Convictions are ordinary.
Click to expand...
Because you tagged me FFS. Don't tag me if you don't want comments. Also you are wrong - i do believe wrongful convictions happen and that is what appeals are for. I do not, however, believe that wrongful convictions are ordinary. Do you have percentages, for example that would prove that statement? Eg 1 in 100, or 50% for example.
 
Guess Who said:
Maybe because they aren't allowed to lie to suspects.
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Not sure about that. But they sure cannot lie in court or it would be perjury and prison. Are your stats available? Maybe by state?

ETA I found this to start with. Between 2% and 10%.

thehighcourt.co

33 Startling Wrongful Convictions Statistics [2024 Update]

Between 2% and 10% of convicted individuals in US prisons are innocent. Let's check out the latest wrongful convictions statistics.
thehighcourt.co thehighcourt.co
 
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Cousin Dupree said:
No, I don't know that. Yes, I think RL wasn't fully investigated. It seems that you and Tresir believe that framing RA would require too many people to lie for the investigation. Fifteen people called the tip line when the video was released identifying RL as bridge guy.

When a reporter asked him to repeat "Down the hill" he changed his pitch on the word hill.

He deliberately asked his cousin to lie for him. According to the cousin it was the first time RL had ever asked him to do so. Without the lie he's more than capable of having done the crime.

The police stated that more than one person was involved and then walked that back after RA'S arrest.

I also think that some people don't understand how someone can be manipulated, psychologically, into confessing. RA was held in a way no other prisoner had been before or since.

All of that is extremely hinky to me. The FBI thought the Odinism clues deserved greater investigation, but they were asked to abandon the case.

I'm pointing out that it's very easy to get a lot of people to lie. There are multiple examples of that here. In the WM3 case, policeman were asked to go back and rewrite their reports so it would fit the time-line they had to have in order for it to make sense. None of them admitted to doing that
I'm sure the DA was aware of this, but just wanted it to be solved in a way people would believe it.

The kid who confessed has about a 70 IQ. When he would say something that conflicted with the narrative they needed, they'd ask him to rethink it.

The only reason Baldwin agreed to go along with the Alford plea is because they could kill Echols at anytime.

Baldwin wanted to go all the way in exonerating them.

So I don't understand the point of bringing up the WM3. It seems as if she believes they are guilty.

My point is that it's not hard to get a lot of people to lie for an investigation. The same thing is true for the Karen Read case, IMO.

Even when proven factually that they made a mistake or deliberately fudged the evidence, DA's are loath to admit it.

I'll provide proof of that in my next post.
Click to expand...
I've heard it.

And I agree with some things, not all nor do I go for a blanket thing.

Did they make Allen or Read place themselves at the scene or were they really there. That's NOT guilt and I get that but it is major right out of the gate. There ate things that just can't be taken away. I'm also not going to compare the two because they are very different and that would again be doing a blanket thing.

As I said @Tresir can speak for herself quite well but i took the list to mean various cases you think had the wrong person. I'd have to go back and look and it's been a day. I was taken off work for another two days and am extremely sore. More so than I even knew. Just not been an easy day.

I am not going to speak to the WM3 as I don't know the details well enough. I do know it is one you cite a lot and are passionate about. And again, I am certainly not saying such never happens. AND when it truly does, it is disgusting, beyond unfair and as wrong as things can get.

Again though, you sound here like all prosecutors are like this, won't admit mistakes and you name it. I beg to differ and that's a blanket statement.

I'm not going into Ron Logan, we've been through it many a time.

I do think investigators and small departments, etc. really need to step up and some need to be far better trained and have more help and even funding. It's a far different world these days.

I mentioned looking at Avery. It was interesting to me that you said he killed the woman because I expected you to say otherwise quite honestly and that he was framed both times, etc.

I see with RA what I don't think you do. Or I feel I do. And many do who did not join the attempted train of the defense BS. Many changed their opinions when attending trial who honestly were the other way or on the fence.

I HATE that the investigation was far from perfect and there certainly were issues. But it's obvious to me. And you don't have to agree of course. It became obvious to many at trial. And overall, I trust juries. It's a big weight and most take it very seriously.

There's a lot I don't like about our system as well.

In our case, the verdict came back second degree and not first, the choice was given. Of course we weren't completely happy and I can't tell you hearing first not guilty, about blew us away, as we worried what would come next, another not guilty? But then we got a guilty. It's a terrible thing. I will never forget it of course. Or the absolutely joke of a sentence. Things swing both ways... It's not all unfair to the accused and to no one else. DAs etc. aren't all dirty. And so on.

We will NEVER agree on RL, RA or Read. And that's okay. But I am convinced on those of my opinion. As are you most likely. And it isn't from bs, it's from looking at what is actually there.

And I do think they overcharged Read for what the case was.

I stay out of that one mostly as you know.

Murdaugh, have you ever even been in that one? I sure don't disagree there is corruptness and power and things that still go on in some areas. Arbery, OMG. A few southern racists, thinking they had power and were somebody, then the DA, etc.

I hope you get I don't think such doesn't happen but I sure don't see it in every case or look at them through that kind of filter, each and every one.

you can see what some of these defenses are doing these days I'd think? Strip it all away and that's where I come down to. Clear the blizzard effect I think I've called it.

Idiots run the world and the systems. I've also said that more than once. Probably a lot. Some have never lived a real day of life as most of us have in a real world.

I don't disbelieve there has been wrong sh*t or railroading ever. But again, I don't blanket it. I've seen some darned good prosecutors, judges, LE, and again try to strip away the b.s. in the cases that have such. And it is what I would do as a juror. From both sides.

Please don't take me wrong, but you are bringing this wrongful thing to every case lately. And I'm not going to. It's a passion of yours but it's not true in every case.

As far as RL too, I could put up a channel that probably said the same. In fact I am the one who probably shared a couple of them that I can hardly stand any longer as their true colors came out later.

Not everything is some huge conspiracy is all I'm saying. And some love it when many are willing to go down that road and not see the other things.

We aren't going to agree on some of these and I'm not going to go into them thinking such, any case.

I woke up at 3 a.m. sore as all heck and this is what you get lol. Or around that hour.

We are not going to see eye to eye on some ever.

The last thing I'll add is that stating an opinion on here or discussing is not necessarily where I'd land as a juror in some cases. But I'm not on the jury, that weight would be far different. But there are some that I definitely would land in the same spot. Delphi is one of them. Because it's all there. As many saw who were NOT sure until away from the b.s. and hearing it all. JUST my opinion.

I texted Mel and have had no response. I am worried. Today I am going to reach out further hopefully. On a totally different note.

Do you have any contact or way to do so? Just want to know she's okay of course.
 
Tresir said:
Not sure about that. But they sure cannot lie in court or it would be perjury and prison. Are your stats available? Maybe by state?

ETA I found this to start with. Between 2% and 10%.

thehighcourt.co

33 Startling Wrongful Convictions Statistics [2024 Update]

Between 2% and 10% of convicted individuals in US prisons are innocent. Let's check out the latest wrongful convictions statistics.
thehighcourt.co thehighcourt.co
Click to expand...

How many is too many? I think one is too many. They're destroying people's lives.
 
Tresir said:
Not sure about that. But they sure cannot lie in court or it would be perjury and prison. Are your stats available? Maybe by state?

ETA I found this to start with. Between 2% and 10%.

thehighcourt.co

33 Startling Wrongful Convictions Statistics [2024 Update]

Between 2% and 10% of convicted individuals in US prisons are innocent. Let's check out the latest wrongful convictions statistics.
thehighcourt.co thehighcourt.co
Click to expand...
My state is notorious for suing to keep proven wrongfully convicted people IN prison.
 
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