LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

1581272168478.png

Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


1581272119747.png


 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can only point you to the man and woman killers like Fred West and his wife also the Moors murders Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Both of those couples where depraved masochistic sexual murderers and abusers and it was almost worse because a woman was involved. I think I previously mentioned the Soham murders too from not too long ago where his girlfriend gave him a false alibi. It does happen.
Oh there have been some no doubt. Majority though is men and even when a woman is also involved, it is with a man as you say here. And some few other cases where say a woman offs three hubs it is generally something like poison and it is for money. Not sex, control, pedo things/children and so on. I am definitely not saying thee haven't been any but some things are predominantly male/men and again I am not man bashing, I just think there has to be reasons for this. And I'm also sure this has been studied and there are opinions and answers out there galore perhaps but it just came to mind this morning on the Os and other things and even how it is mainly men that join radical groups and such or supremacy groups.

I just don't think as a female, I can understand what is in males that gets them or kicks off something, I don't have the words. And I'm not saying good men know either but they may know the parts and drives and needs or deprivation, ego, whatever it is that can launch these things or get some other guy passing all boundaries.. Again I don't have the words.

And I'm not looking to go down some rabbit hole or continue this on this thread. Just something I was pondering.

Maybe a big part comes back to the well know things that women are allowed and freer emotionally to express and therefore have that kind of outlet. And some other things...There is a huge lack of empathy of course and in many cases a severe disregard and hatred of women and so forth. The pedos are BEYOND my comprehension as is the total self first and indulgence and lack of a bit of remorse for their evil acts.

Enough of that, again I don't have words. And don't really want to go there. I also was just trying to think of the victims this morning and I just can't understand how anyone could do this (not just this crime) but so many/all but this one, we get away from it, all becomes as in every case defendant driven/focus there. I am not saying us here or we shouldn't be, that is just what happens and I wouldn't call it numb but focusing on the perp and finding the perp helpsl put the awful details out of mind somewhat (well without old D outing them all/some) but I guess I just stopped in all this madness and took a few minutes to think (not too far, I can't handle thinking of too much of what they went through) of just what an EVIL HEINOUS INHUMAN person could do such as this. I don't ever need to now every detail we know enough but far from all and it is horrible. They were human young girls that someone did this to and that just kind of took me to the man that did it, what kind of man could do such a thing and then I wondered about it almost always being men and what allows them to go so FAR.

And that's enough on that from me.

RA is not convicted but I have my opinion of course and if he is the perp, one needs to REALIZE that what this man did was not like hum some not HUGE AWFUL DEVASTATING thing to two families, to two children with their entire lives ahead, to their OWN community.

And what the families have to deal with with the BS going on now is so UNFAIR.

Anyhow long work day another coming tomorrow, I guess I need to kind of hit one long one and unwind my thoughts some.

I think for some other time a thread on this and looking at it some might be interesting, not that I personally will ever get to, but I've put enough of it here and don't want to continue it, derail, etc. even though it is/was related in a way/is.

I will end the subject with saying for anyone who thinks they have the right guy, and I do, and I think you do, you have to look at and remember this crime to know the kind of monster and manipulator, liar, con artist, SK type, heinous, game playing, evil individual RA is if the man who did this. That is why I look at the things he does, like weight loss, going gaunt, seeming to be weak, etc., the timing and so many other things and I see a Dennis Rader for instance... This is WHO HE IS under the married man with one child guise just some pharm tech, likes his beer... This is why I don't see this "poor soul"... Yes he has rights. So DID those poor girls but they have none after death and their families sure don't either.
 
just a sharing. I'd never seen this detective's channel before. He's calm, sensible, down to earth. A palate cleanser. I like that. :chillin:



FYI: Detective Ken Mains - you may have heard of him.


TLDR;
for this short crime scene commentary, Mains considers only the Franks Memo's written crime scene descriptions
(he ignores D's interpretation/commentary ... focus on CS as described)
Mains hasn't dug into this particular case, but keeps an eye and stays above the fray.
He recorded this session b/c he did read the FM given crime scene info had been revealed ...and recorded what he took note of from the CS description.

With caution, Mains shares his impressions such as the following:
  • severely mentally disturbed person would come to mind
  • yes one person could have done this
  • (yes more than one person could have done this as well)
  • cult activity would come to mind - and would require much more investigation
  • obviously he'd prefer to see the crime scene photos himself
  • would want all immediate/early investigative written reports from initial/original professional crime scene team members, responders, etc.
  • would want all written reports from autopsy
  • would not want to see any report after LE puts forth RA (due to loss of objectivity at that point)

Main makes no comments with regard to timeline.

Interesting.

I'm intrigued. It is very cautious but rightly so as he doesn't have it all but pretty much says what it would take to have enough to say more.

You know me I love as he should, that he ignores the D's interpretation and commentary. That isn't even a knock on the D, that is what any professional and hopefully a lot of people DO because of course there is an agenda, to save their client, and a bias and a purpose and it doesn't make a bit of it fact.

Severely mentally disturbed I'd hope doesn't mean insane. Because the person/s clearly did know what he/they were doing. Also a severely mentally disturbed person does not fit one bit with a GROUP or more than one so they kind of cancel each other out...
 
I have seen a couple of videos from this guy (the beginnings only) and he seems to be a reasonable source. This link lists a lot of sources regarding the case and KK case so if anyone wants to look at, for example, the PCA for KK it is here plus a lot of other items.

I've seen him but have not encountered his things for a long time, maybe the dumb way YT doesn't throw up the right suggestions. I don't get Scott Reisch's stuff either any longer and I am subscribed.

I don't know about all here but I saw all there was, I think, on Kline. Probably last year was it? MS had a lot but yes, much of it is out there. It is lengthy for anyone who hasn't but it is INTERESTING. Frustrating and a ton of it is not directly tied to Delphi but then you hit where they do come to Libby, etc.

I haven't seen Gavin Fish in some time but from what I recall he was good, measured, as you say reasonable. I am now wondering though if I unsubscribed for some or if I liked him still because for some reason I never get a suggestion of his videos but then YT is always changing their algorithms, TICKS Me off.

There are a lot of good ones out there and even if you don't like videos, many DO put up whole libraries of all docs to access in a case AND many pay to get them and file FOIA requests. And again if you aren't video type (I was the same way) there are some that read the documents and search the court records like daily and you can do your dishes while hearing them read the docs and just listen.

Anyhow yeah, I"ve watched him, been awhile though and I seem to recall I thought him good. He may not pop up as much just do to number of subscribers or something. Again YT stuff/algorithms.
 
I've seen him but have not encountered his things for a long time, maybe the dumb way YT doesn't throw up the right suggestions. I don't get Scott Reisch's stuff either any longer and I am subscribed.

I don't know about all here but I saw all there was, I think, on Kline. Probably last year was it? MS had a lot but yes, much of it is out there. It is lengthy for anyone who hasn't but it is INTERESTING. Frustrating and a ton of it is not directly tied to Delphi but then you hit where they do come to Libby, etc.

I haven't seen Gavin Fish in some time but from what I recall he was good, measured, as you say reasonable. I am now wondering though if I unsubscribed for some or if I liked him still because for some reason I never get a suggestion of his videos but then YT is always changing their algorithms, TICKS Me off.

There are a lot of good ones out there and even if you don't like videos, many DO put up whole libraries of all docs to access in a case AND many pay to get them and file FOIA requests. And again if you aren't video type (I was the same way) there are some that read the documents and search the court records like daily and you can do your dishes while hearing them read the docs and just listen.

Anyhow yeah, I"ve watched him, been awhile though and I seem to recall I thought him good. He may not pop up as much just do to number of subscribers or something. Again YT stuff/algorithms.
After posting the link I realise he charges $3 to download a document just to let everyone know.
 
I hope the SC takes note of this. If RA keeps his original lawyers then we should not need the 10 month delay that new lawyers would need . Not only that but as they have now said they will do it pro bono, it will also save the state some money. RA wants to keep them too so it's a no brainer really. The bird should get the bird.


ETA from the link.

The Indiana Public Defender Council said on Friday the Indiana Supreme Court should step in and reinstate Allen’s original attorneys.

The council filed a brief with the court, arguing their removal wasn’t handled properly and has the potential to undermine the case.

As a final point, although this brief focuses on statutes and procedures designed to protect the independence of defense counsel, we should not lose sight of the person most affected. Public defenders do extraordinary, life-changing work every day in courtrooms around the state. Mr. Allen was pleased with the work of his initially appointed public defenders. Mr. Allen and the public that funds his defense should be entitled to more than vague and broad concerns about “gross negligence” and that a judge “cannot and will not allow these attorneys to represent you . . . . I can’t do it, sir. I just can’t.” Record Vol. 2, p. 26.
Such statements do not engender confidence in the criminal justice system for criminal defendants, many of whom believe that appointed counsel is not a “real lawyer” but a “public pretender” or a lawyer who works for the State. When followed, the statutes and decisional law outlined above provide some means to dispel these misconceptions. When not followed, the trust and rapport developed during a full year of intensive representation is lost—and Mr. Allen is left to wait nine additional months incarcerated in the Department of Correction under conditions that he and his counsel of choice have stated undermine his ability to prepare his defense
The filing reads.
 
Last edited:
I hope the SC takes note of this. If RA keeps his original lawyers then we should not need the 10 month delay that new lawyers would need . Not only that but as they have now said they will do it pro bono, it will also save the state some money. RA wants to keep them too so it's a no brainer really. The bird should get the bird.


I find that last part offensive! :nope:
 
I find that last part offensive! :nope:
It was a joke. Bird = Gull. Getting the bird = the sack. Cannot believe you are offended at that. Especially with all that you post.

So you would rather the defense get the bird and RA has to be in jail another year before the trial even starts, just because of how she sacked his state appointed lawyers? First of all I think she overstepped her authority and secondly it's a police matter so, if anything the police should have dealt with it, not her.
( Maybe LE are still dealing with it, for all we know.)

Just so you know -

get the bird in British English

a. to be fired or dismissed.
b. (esp of a public performer) to be hissed at, booed, or derided.

Collins Online Dictionary | Definitions, Thesaurus and Translations › ...

GET THE BIRD definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

 
Last edited:
I hope the SC takes note of this. If RA keeps his original lawyers then we should not need the 10 month delay that new lawyers would need . Not only that but as they have now said they will do it pro bono, it will also save the state some money. RA wants to keep them too so it's a no brainer really. The bird should get the bird.


ETA from the link.

The Indiana Public Defender Council said on Friday the Indiana Supreme Court should step in and reinstate Allen’s original attorneys.

The council filed a brief with the court, arguing their removal wasn’t handled properly and has the potential to undermine the case.
That's what I've been saying all along. Gull wasted no time removing the defense, appointing new defense, and canceling and rescheduling his trial.
 
It was a joke. Bird = Gull. Getting the bird = the sack. Cannot believe you are offended at that. Especially with all that you post.

So you would rather the defense get the bird and RA has to be in jail another year before the trial even starts, just because of how she sacked his state appointed lawyers? First of all I think she overstepped her authority and secondly it's a police matter so, if anything the police should have dealt with it, not her.
( Maybe LE are still dealing with it, for all we know.)

Just so you know -

get the bird in British English

a. to be fired or dismissed.
b. (esp of a public performer) to be hissed at, booed, or derided.

Collins Online Dictionary | Definitions, Thesaurus and Translations › ...

GET THE BIRD definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary


It was a joke. :giggling:
 
I hope the SC takes note of this. If RA keeps his original lawyers then we should not need the 10 month delay that new lawyers would need . Not only that but as they have now said they will do it pro bono, it will also save the state some money. RA wants to keep them too so it's a no brainer really. The bird should get the bird.


ETA from the link.

The Indiana Public Defender Council said on Friday the Indiana Supreme Court should step in and reinstate Allen’s original attorneys.

The council filed a brief with the court, arguing their removal wasn’t handled properly and has the potential to undermine the case.

Ahh ... - to bird, as in to fly away!

This is the Amicus Brief from last week! After submitting their motion, The SCION immediately granted the Public Defender Council's request as an interested party to join RA's review of Gull THE BIRD's decisions and RA's motion to BIRD THE BIRD and to keep his original defense counsel.

When THE BIRD submits her responses, I've been wondering if more Amicus Briefs will come from other interested groups - i.e. that represents Indiana Prosecutors, or Indiana Judges.

Should SCION make a decision upon review ... they'll be making some clarifying case law that puts all BIRDS in a cage - to some more specific degree.
 
Ahh ... - to bird, as in to fly away!

This is the Amicus Brief from last week! After submitting their motion, The SCION immediately granted the Public Defender Council's request as an interested party to join RA's review of Gull THE BIRD's decisions and RA's motion to BIRD THE BIRD and to keep his original defense counsel.

When THE BIRD submits her responses, I've been wondering if more Amicus Briefs will come from other interested groups - i.e. that represents Indiana Prosecutors, or Indiana Judges.

Should SCION make a decision upon review ... they'll be making some clarifying case law that puts all BIRDS in a cage - to some more specific degree.
In the UK we also have the term 'doing bird' which means to serve a prison sentence. Thought to come from 'birdlime" cockney rhyming slang for doing 'time' subsequently shortened to 'doing bird'.
 
Some notes from the Franks Memo and exhibits. (from LE depositions.)

There's sometimes speculation that LE is holding back info related to finger prints, DNA or phone/computer/electronic evidence, or RA being in a cult or social platform, or knowing the other POIs LE has investigated. These things look to be answered via the Ligget & Holeman depositions (referenced in the FM).

According to Liggett & Holeman recent depositions (testimony under oath) in Aug 2023 (p. 129 FM):

Tony Liggett
testified that: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.

Jerry Holeman testified that: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. No data extracted from Richard Allen's phone connects him to the murders. No data extracted from Libby's phone connected Richard the murders. There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case. There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders. There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen's computers that connects him to the murders. There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.

- Above sourced from the Franks Memos files and supporting docs files - these 2 depositions.




JMO

 
In the UK we also have the term 'doing bird' which means to serve a prison sentence. Thought to come from 'birdlime" cockney rhyming slang for doing 'time' subsequently shortened to 'doing bird'.

Ah. then it's "bird", as in caged bird? Not "to fly away" bird?

This is why I didn't major in English; it's a very difficult language. :giggle:
 
Some notes from the Franks Memo and exhibits. (from LE depositions.)

There's sometimes speculation that LE is holding back info related to finger prints, DNA or phone/computer/electronic evidence, or RA being in a cult or social platform, or knowing the other POIs LE has investigated. These things look to be answered via the Ligget & Holeman depositions (referenced in the FM).

According to Liggett & Holeman recent depositions (testimony under oath) in Aug 2023 (p. 129 FM):

Tony Liggett
testified that: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.

Jerry Holeman testified that: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. No data extracted from Richard Allen's phone connects him to the murders. No data extracted from Libby's phone connected Richard the murders. There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case. There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders. There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen's computers that connects him to the murders. There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.

- Above sourced from the Franks Memos files and supporting docs files - these 2 depositions.




JMO



So basically, other than his confessions, (Questionable confessions) they got nuthin'.
 
So basically, other than his confessions, (Questionable confessions) they got nuthin'.
To be fair, we know they have RA's statements as to his park visit, including the bridge, and what he wore to the park and stuff, a gun, the bullet/casing.

They don't seem to have the physical/forensic type of evidence that helps make all the circumstantial evidence bring home a guilty verdict. They'll need to bring that rumored smoking meow.
 
To be fair, we know they have RA's statements as to his park visit, including the bridge, and what he wore to the park and stuff, a gun, the bullet/casing.

They don't seem to have the physical/forensic type of evidence that helps make all the circumstantial evidence bring home a guilty verdict. They'll need to bring that rumored smoking meow.

No DNA in a crime like this? Was there any other unidentified DNA?
 
I just started listening to this. I just woke up, and hopefully they'll run the Brian K. special on CourtTV again or put it on YouTube.

 

Forum statistics

Threads
2,999
Messages
238,444
Members
953
Latest member
dayday
Back
Top Bottom