LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Tresir]

Among other things, the 2nd Writ seeks the re-instatement of the old D (Allen requests his preferred counsel be reinstated).

To consider old D reinstatement, the SC would review Gull's assessment of "gross negligence" by the old D, including her facts/process/deliberation/decision that led to her removing the old D.

(The summary section of Allen's 2nd Writ lists the decisions Allen's requested from the SC.)

Ok, thanks, I understand now - that is Defence requesting their reinstatement against her findings of gross negligence. The gross negligence presumably being leaving Crime Scene photos laying around on a conference room table for 7 weeks.

 

[Tresir]

Wishing everyone some very lovely, peaceful & joyful Holidays ...
see you in the New Year 2024!

You too.

 

[Olenna]

Ok, thanks, I understand now - that is Defence requesting their reinstatement against her findings of gross negligence. The gross negligence presumably being leaving Crime Scene photos laying around on a conference room table for 7 weeks.

Yes and technically, that is Allen requesting the D's reinstatement - reversing Gull's decision to dump the D.

Gull describes that "gross negligence" is not one event but several events; she suggests these disparate events cumulate to = gross negligence.


(Don't forget (also in papers) Baldwin/Rozzi met with Allen to apologize and explain the leak, the potential negatives of crime scene photo release, the LE investigation on the leak, disclosed the D's potential conflicts in the event of an ongoing leaks investigation, asked him if he had any concerns, ask if he still wanted to continue with them, Allen signed a waiver of conflicts over the leak investigation arise. )

 

[GrandmaBear]

I totally get how the jailhouse confession would derail folks interest in points of RA's defense. Jailhouse confessions on tape ... unless those confessions contain new facts and/or detail that only the murderer would know ... are not terribly useful.

And I hope this case's NEW Judge is not a lazy passive aggressive lip-curling eye-rolling wimp.

And I'd hope his new attorneys have heard of a password, a door, a lock and remember attorneys should have ethics and know how to ensure confidentiality. LMAO.

If she's passive aggressive, what is your professional diagnosis of Baldwin? Rozzi, that's tougher, give it to me? And how about your diagnosis of their buddies the leaker and the suicider?

And I'd really like a pro diagnosis of the people that become Os. And then one of the ones who do versus wannabe Os. And how many murders in IN that could be put down to a group O thing or have been prosecuted, etc.?

Sorry. Lol. I've probably rolled my eyes. I don't know that I've ever curled my lip. If i have it was deserved I'm sure. And quite possibly I knew more of their b.s. than others did to who I did it to.

I have used the terms passive aggressive and narcissistic.. I don't generally and don't like blanket diagnoses but felt I lived with such and the words fit. But you're doing it to a woman you don't know and I'd like you instead to diagnose Allen? And his old D? Because that's one for the history books....

 

[GrandmaBear]

The SC determined most of the 1st Writ was mute given Gull got off her lazy arse and fixed her docket ... (not without shamelessly laying blame on her court clerk) so that the SC was able to dismiss/opine without a hearing.

IMO, the fact that that the SC has set a hearing for the 2nd Writ rather than issuing a ruling without a hearing ... means there's law to interpret and SC believes it's their job to do so.

Oh yeah, Westermann had a relationship and was a prime source for Murder Sheet ... and ... his wife filed for divorced last month, so ... there's a few things more we have learned about him. (Didn't mean to "ignore" that.)

I'm sorry. Did you just wave your magic wand, refer to most of my post as "irrelevant" and then call me naive? LOL!! It's okay, I deserve it.
It's true, you know little about me. You're sweet for thinking I'm nice, though. That's a relief!

reference: You'll enjoy reading the SC 2nd Writ docket - Allen's first motion with exhibits that contain admissions of Gull's exparte discussions w/ Prosecution. It's all posted earlier on this thread - mid October, I beleive.

You've explained many times that if you just feel someone isn't worth your trust, you're self-exempt from considering what they say. Kinda reminds me of your take on Gwenyth. But to be honest, when one's argue thusly: "I don't trust anything they say, so I am not taking that into account" ... that is not an argument. I'm just sayin'.

As for "passive aggressive" - here's the common behaviors; IMO Gull has exemplified each of these; she plays games and she's unfit for her critical role.
True, I'm hard and I'm persistent on this point and that is b/c it's women like Gull in the workplace that give powerful women leaders everywhere a bad rep.
These are back-stabbing toxic personalities that are unproductive, erode teams, and damage the workplace. How?
Just look at what's happened to Gull's Court! It is absolutely ridiculous.



Hey, gran, in this post I just quoted you started with "good post Tresir" and ended with "Olenna, you ignore a lot of things but please find me stuff you already put on the thread b/c I think I read something about exparte but I can't remember".

Good news - last I heard the SC arguments are recorded and they can be listened live on line ... or listened after the fact - link is at the Indiana SC website, and I'll pop a link in here as we get closer.

Lol. I'd still like a diagnosis on Old D and more...

I knew nothing about the relationship and Westerman divorce so thanks for sharing that as that seems significant....

You are nice. Well at times. And naive. At times. As am I.

And I don't pretend to know all and no, if I don't like someone, or think they are a liar, etc., I don't automatically discount what they say.. I take the whole enchllada.

I'll agree that a LOT of judges can be misconstrued but they also have to control their parties and courtroom. And some abuse it. Some go too far. BUT she was put in by the State. Not saying it still could not be. But you assume all and more on her but don't even look at or judge the D side of this.

I don't care in any personal way. I mean Gull is not my mommy, my cousin or my gf. But your lack of looking at Old D and their antics makes me think Gull is your mommy who wasn't there for you. Not trying to be nasty, I just don't think you look at it without bias. Honestly I just want justice and like in national politics, I think both sides are the same and suck honestly, and I hope it isn't the case here. The D has had so many mishaps and you name it, t isn't even funny. I think it would try the patience of any judge.

I'm all for a clean slate and have said it before, of both judge and public defenders. i'd never necessarily trust though it wasn't one side or another putting who they want in place which would remain to be seen.

Of course no offense, I really enjoy the back and forth and debate. You called me naive but I'm going to say you have an axe to grind with Gull which seems to blind you to all else. Lol.

Sad part is it all is about everyone but the victims and it always is.

I am honest when I say nothing personal at all. I hope all is well and you are enjoying and will the upcoming holidays. And I do enjoy a good and feisty debate. And that's a fact. I don't get much time for such or find it much when I do get time.

I would agree with others too that maybe it is all a mess and at worst, all need to go. Defense and judge.

But I have said it before and will again, Old D should NOT be part of this. Their client confessed and I honestly think they couldn't have it. Jmo.

 

[GrandmaBear]

MW's wife is divorcing him? That seems harsh if all he did was wander in to a room and see some pics that he photographed to show a mate.

Makes me think it is more serious. Has he been charged with anything? Eg contempt of court as a minimum.

This is all news to me. And seems to point in a certain direction. Imo. Wow. A suicide with one of the chain and a divorce with the other...

 

[GrandmaBear]

I don't think I knew this but Westerman has been charged with the class A misdemeanor of conversion. This is appparently the equivalent of the common law crime of theft. The crime took place on Oct 5th according to the Law and Crime article, however, that seems incorrect if you see my ETA below. That suggests it happened in August.

Man charged over evidence leak in Delphi murders case that led to removal of defense attorneys

"I observed printed copies of photo evidence on the conference room table," a sworn statement reads. "I took pictures of a few of them."

lawandcrime.com

"Bartholomew County Prosecutor Lindsey Holden-Kay unsealed the charge on Wednesday, according to The Republic, a local newspaper that serves the Columbus, Indiana, region. Holden-Kay is a special prosecutor assigned to the case and will prosecute the charge in Johnson County."

ETA the article above links The Republic article also dated 22 Nov. That article appears to state that the offence took place a couple of months before Oct 5th. See below.

"On Oct. 9 at around 4 p.m., Westerman contacted Baldwin to meet with him, and shortly after they met at Baldwin’s office. Westerman reportedly confessed to Baldwin that had used his phone to take photos of crime scene photos from the Delphi case. The photos were in a conference room at Baldwin’s office, the affidavit shows.

Westerman also allegedly said he had done so a few months earlier and shared them with the individual. Police later learned that the individual had shared the photos with the Texas man, who then shared them with YouTube creators and podcasts, according to the affidavit."

Here is link from the L & C article that takes you to the sworn affidavit from the ISP officer who interviewed Westerman.

"A sworn statement in an affidavit of probable cause attached to the charging document obtained by Indianapolis-based ABC affiliate WRTV offers more details about the theft."

In my opinion a Baldwin enabled and approved "theft" and plan. Nada has changed my mind on that yet and this just makes me more sure of it.

 

[Olenna]

And I'd hope his new attorneys have heard of a password, a door, a lock and remember attorneys should have ethics and know how to ensure confidentiality. LMAO.

If she's passive aggressive, what is your professional diagnosis of Baldwin? Rozzi, that's tougher, give it to me? And how about your diagnosis of their buddies the leaker and the suicider?

And I'd really like a pro diagnosis of the people that become Os. And then one of the ones who do versus wannabe Os. And how many murders in IN that could be put down to a group O thing or have been prosecuted, etc.?

Sorry. Lol. I've probably rolled my eyes. I don't know that I've ever curled my lip. If i have it was deserved I'm sure. And quite possibly I knew more of their b.s. than others did to who I did it to.

I have used the terms passive aggressive and narcissistic.. I don't generally and don't like blanket diagnoses but felt I lived with such and the words fit. But you're doing it to a woman you don't know and I'd like you instead to diagnose Allen? And his old D? Because that's one for the history books....

LOL. This is fun.
I'm betting you'd never eyeroll wearing a robe holding a gavel from the bench in front of national cameras ... She's not doing that intentionally. She's all simmering emotion up there. She needs yoga and deep breathing training.

It's my sense that Gull works from fear which is expressed through disdain. Her inability to unemotionally manage her Court - even the clerk - suggests this case is just too much for her to handle. I don't envy her. I get there's good reason for fear. Whoever is the Judge this case must endure, must be up for the public interest/spotlight/harsh criticism. It's intimidating. Gull sat on the bench reaching out/leaning on the P to opine on the old D. That was incredibly unprofessional and inappropriate. Next we see Gull trying to make her Court environment more supportive with the move to replace old D with her known, local colleagues/friends. That's clearly seeking relief from her discomfort on the bench.

I expect the SC won't rule on emotion or personality but the outcomes and appearances of these things; they'll rule on facts and they'll judge ethics, conflicts, impartiality, integrity, fairness and on top of all that ... the appearance of all those things.

I hope the new D has been released from ordered psych counseling for rage in the workplace.

I can't help you with Allen; not enough info.
He's a vet.
He self medicates w/ alcohol.
Might be an alcoholic.
He has a loving relationship with his wife and his mother.

From the above, you've got him figured for a CSA serial killer.
For me, that's a huge leap.
And per nationally known profiler takes on RA ... also a huge leap.
I can help you with this:
Prison confessions on the phone to family members under medication and/or duress ... if later denied rather than reinforced with confessions to one's counsel or other authority ... are frequently overcome in court. Official Westville prison abuse reports speak louder than RA's medicated phone calls.

Baldwin's a creative turned litigator. Read his website. He explains his mission and approach well. (I know a few litigators similar to Baldwin.)
Rozzi's a technician. (my favorite type of lawyer)
Neither of the above are toxic personalities.

I've made it clear that it's absurd to discuss RF accusing him of criminalities etc. He's not a POI nor a witness. He's a victim. They have rules around these threads about attacking victims.

Listen to Murder Sheet's interview with Westerman. He's one attention-needy guy trying to live vicariously through Baldwin. Basic, easy, childish stuff.

Murder Sheet worked overtime to get immunity for their buddy Mark, the REAL leaker. Mark, the dude that actually sent crime scene photos to tons of vloggers. It might be more interesting to do a psych profile on Murder Sheet for having that creep as their source for Delphi.

The gangs posing/covering/"loyalty-bonding" as an O-brotherhood - some of them POIs in the Delphi case - some of them already in prison or out with time served for other violent crimes - are gang members. Garden variety criminals. Simple stuff. See motorcycle gang. What's to diagnose?

Murders "staged" as something else ... such as a fire ... or like a ritual ... are just murders. It's not that complicated. Purpose is to distract/confuse the investigation/truth. Sometimes it works such that figuring out the motive ... getting to the truth ... is quite complicated. But you already know this.

I have to go be nice and not naughty now. 48 hours should do it, right? Hope you enjoy your celebrations ever so much Gran!

 

[Olenna]

Lol. I'd still like a diagnosis on Old D and more...

Gull is not my mommy, my cousin or my gf. But your lack of looking at Old D and their antics makes me think Gull is your mommy who wasn't there for you. Not trying to be nasty, I just don't think you look at it without bias. Honestly I just want justice and like in national politics, I think both sides are the same and suck honestly, and I hope it isn't the case here. The D has had so many mishaps and you name it, t isn't even funny. I think it would try the patience of any judge.

CBM and BBM.

Wow, that's (bbm) naughty and not at all nice. I won't tell Santa, but you best hope he's busy working on the reindeer's reins and missed this post.

My goodness. My mother was a saint and devoted mother of a huge family and so many grandchildren and lived to give her love and support to all of us for 97 years and I cannot believe you just took the liberty of insulting her life's work as the bestest and most supportive mom on the planet ... in hopes of insulting and belittling me. Wow that's nuts. Go back and read what you wrote. Oh, you must be so embarrassed. I forgive you. And don't worry, it didn't work.

 

[Tresir]

Yes and technically, that is Allen requesting the D's reinstatement - reversing Gull's decision to dump the D.

Gull describes that "gross negligence" is not one event but several events; she suggests these disparate events cumulate to = gross negligence.


(Don't forget (also in papers) Baldwin/Rozzi met with Allen to apologize and explain the leak, the potential negatives of crime scene photo release, the LE investigation on the leak, disclosed the D's potential conflicts in the event of an ongoing leaks investigation, asked him if he had any concerns, ask if he still wanted to continue with them, Allen signed a waiver of conflicts over the leak investigation arise. )

Well they would say that wouldn't they? I just don't believe them. I think they have been scrabbling to cover there a*ses to avoid disbarrment JMO.

 

[Tresir]

LOL. This is fun.
I'm betting you'd never eyeroll wearing a robe holding a gavel from the bench in front of national cameras ... She's not doing that intentionally. She's all simmering emotion up there. She needs yoga and deep breathing training.

It's my sense that Gull works from fear which is expressed through disdain. Her inability to unemotionally manage her Court - even the clerk - suggests this case is just too much for her to handle. I don't envy her. I get there's good reason for fear. Whoever is the Judge this case must endure, must be up for the public interest/spotlight/harsh criticism. It's intimidating. Gull sat on the bench reaching out/leaning on the P to opine on the old D. That was incredibly unprofessional and inappropriate. Next we see Gull trying to make her Court environment more supportive with the move to replace old D with her known, local colleagues/friends. That's clearly seeking relief from her discomfort on the bench.

I expect the SC won't rule on emotion or personality but the outcomes and appearances of these things; they'll rule on facts and they'll judge ethics, conflicts, impartiality, integrity, fairness and on top of all that ... the appearance of all those things.

I hope the new D has been released from ordered psych counseling for rage in the workplace.

I can't help you with Allen; not enough info.
He's a vet.
He self medicates w/ alcohol.
Might be an alcoholic.
He has a loving relationship with his wife and his mother.

From the above, you've got him figured for a CSA serial killer.
For me, that's a huge leap.
And per nationally known profiler takes on RA ... also a huge leap.
I can help you with this:
Prison confessions on the phone to family members under medication and/or duress ... if later denied rather than reinforced with confessions to one's counsel or other authority ... are frequently overcome in court. Official Westville prison abuse reports speak louder than RA's medicated phone calls.

Baldwin's a creative turned litigator. Read his website. He explains his mission and approach well. (I know a few litigators similar to Baldwin.)
Rozzi's a technician. (my favorite type of lawyer)
Neither of the above are toxic personalities.

I've made it clear that it's absurd to discuss RF. He's not a POI nor a witness. He's a victim. They have rules around these threads about attacking victims.

Listen to Murder Sheet's interview with Westerman. He's one attention-needy guy trying to live vicariously through Baldwin. Basic, easy, childish stuff.

Murder Sheet worked overtime to get immunity for their buddy Mark, the REAL leaker. Mark, the dude that actually sent crime scene photos to tons of vloggers. It might be more interesting to do a psych profile on Murder Sheet for having that creep as their source for Delphi.

The gangs posing/covering/"loyalty-bonding" as an O-brotherhood - some of them POIs in the Delphi case - some of them already in prison or out with time served for other violent crimes - are gang members. Garden variety criminals. Simple stuff. See motorcycle gang. What's to diagnose?

Murders "staged" as something else ... such as a fire ... or like a ritual ... are just murders. It's not that complicated. Purpose is to distract/confuse the investigation/truth. Sometimes it works such that figuring out the motive ... getting to the truth ... is quite complicated. But you already know this.

I have to go be nice and not naughty now. 48 hours should do it, right? Hope you enjoy your celebrations ever so much Gran!

Before you go, do you have a link or copy of the Westerman MS interview? I couldn't find it on their website when I looked a couple of weeks ago.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Yup. I thought I posted this development. Sorry if I didn't. I'll put the investigator's affidavit here below in quotes.

FWIW, This is why I think the leak investigation stopped w/ Westermann.
LE's not interested in Baldwin/Rossi for this crime; this affidavit and the charges themselves assert that Baldwin was "robbed".

(Apologies for spelling westerman with 2 nn's in previous postings.)

I fail to see how anyone can read this and not see it for what it is and what is obvious. And now Baldwin was either on the phone or meeting with a client with door closed. Mitchy stopped by routinely to vist with STAFF AND BALDWIN and wandered I guess around the office and conference room and premises. This is a friend and FORMER employee RIGHT who never passed the bar but went to law school and who Baldwin routinely bounced case thoughts and strategies off of right? I am SORRY but DUH. This sh*t is so obvious it is not even funny. Oh yah his door was closed. I just happened by. Staff didn't stop me (who I often stopped by to visit with too)) as I wandered around and case photos just happened to be out and I don't know if he was meeting with a client or on a call but his door was CLOSED, etc., etc. etc. It is a NO BRAINER.

And then we have Rozzi playing very dumb and maybe he was but I don't think so. I won't go as hard on him because it is harder to be sure but these men had a plan and it is soooooo obvious of how and where they were going to take this case. Soooo very obvious.

The entire Westerman Baldwin office thing is clear. Rozzi I will let slide but I don't believe he was clueless either, just less evidence of it. This was their TICKET.

Imo ANYONE who believes the Westerman Baldwin thing is not thinking or is gullible as all he77.

It is sooooooo very clear. Man it is like the mob having the one who does the hits... A step or two away and if anything happens they claim it was them and take the fall. Just as Westerman did//is doing.

And then he channeled it and routed it as planned. And suicide guy KNEW HE would be the one to take the fall and the previous two in the chain, Baldwin and Westerman would PUT IT ON HIM and he was on his own and on one would believe him. Who can't see this?? It is soooo obvious

That is--IF it was truly suicide. I mean he could rat so maybe it wasn't...

If I were MW's wife, I'd get the he77 out too. And FAST.

 

[Olenna]

Before you go, do you have a link or copy of the Westerman MS interview? I couldn't find it on their website when I looked a couple of weeks ago.

Here ya go!

The Delphi Murders: A March 2023 Interview with Alleged Delphi Leaker Mitch Westerman


have fun.

I haven't listened to this since we learned more about MW's involvements via court papers, affidavits, extra-marital affair, theft, arrest, divorce, and best friend's suicide, etc.

I won't listen again b/c it's real long slog.

But when I first listened, I left the podcast feeling like this Westerman dude ... is just off. I can't even believe he was anything more than ... maybe ... filings paralegal.

Here, MW is stream of consciousness, repetitive, disorganized, unable to close a point, sounds a bit manic or high as a kite ... and it's no wonder he never passed the bar.

You may find yourself understanding why I find Westerman so, so very odd and given his downhill trajectory since this interview, I wonder if he's been decompensating. Makes me think Baldwin eased him out of the firm, sighed in relief, and certainly never assigned him some super secret crime photo mission ... but Baldwin continued to accept his social relationship if Westerman visited, continued to chat shop as Westerman tells MS - legal theories etc..

The losses/stresses Westerman experienced since this MS interview: no more legal career, lost reputation, lost marriage, lost friend and colleague (Baldwin), and now he's charged with a crime.

Finally, I think it's completely illogical - for so many reasons - that the old D thought they needed to leak crime scene photos.

BUT ... if one MUST entertain that theory ... for argument's sake ...

One must then ask ... if ... you're a highly respected, well-known and successful criminal defense attorney at the peak of your career arguing the most high profile trial of your career ... and ... you decide ... to break some laws and deliver to a long list of random non-journalist vloggers devastating crime scene photos (against a gag order). AND, for such a sensitive secret and illicit crime scene photo leak mission ... you choose a dude you just got out of your firm, who is having personal stress, having an affair, seeks attention, overshares, who chooses another vet (also with emotional problems) as a middleman for said secret mission ... and then expect everything to work out swell?

Yeah, this seems a silly plan, and it's just one reason that I don't think so about an old D conspiracy.

I have a bunch of other reasons, but I'll leave it there for now and look forward to your thoughts after listening to this odd "interview".

 

[GrandmaBear]

LOL. This is fun.
I'm betting you'd never eyeroll wearing a robe holding a gavel from the bench in front of national cameras ... She's not doing that intentionally. She's all simmering emotion up there. She needs yoga and deep breathing training.

It's my sense that Gull works from fear which is expressed through disdain. Her inability to unemotionally manage her Court - even the clerk - suggests this case is just too much for her to handle. I don't envy her. I get there's good reason for fear. Whoever is the Judge this case must endure, must be up for the public interest/spotlight/harsh criticism. It's intimidating. Gull sat on the bench reaching out/leaning on the P to opine on the old D. That was incredibly unprofessional and inappropriate. Next we see Gull trying to make her Court environment more supportive with the move to replace old D with her known, local colleagues/friends. That's clearly seeking relief from her discomfort on the bench.

I expect the SC won't rule on emotion or personality but the outcomes and appearances of these things; they'll rule on facts and they'll judge ethics, conflicts, impartiality, integrity, fairness and on top of all that ... the appearance of all those things.

I hope the new D has been released from ordered psych counseling for rage in the workplace.

I can't help you with Allen; not enough info.
He's a vet.
He self medicates w/ alcohol.
Might be an alcoholic.
He has a loving relationship with his wife and his mother.

From the above, you've got him figured for a CSA serial killer.
For me, that's a huge leap.
And per nationally known profiler takes on RA ... also a huge leap.
I can help you with this:
Prison confessions on the phone to family members under medication and/or duress ... if later denied rather than reinforced with confessions to one's counsel or other authority ... are frequently overcome in court. Official Westville prison abuse reports speak louder than RA's medicated phone calls.

Baldwin's a creative turned litigator. Read his website. He explains his mission and approach well. (I know a few litigators similar to Baldwin.)
Rozzi's a technician. (my favorite type of lawyer)
Neither of the above are toxic personalities.

I've made it clear that it's absurd to discuss RF. He's not a POI nor a witness. He's a victim. They have rules around these threads about attacking victims.

Listen to Murder Sheet's interview with Westerman. He's one attention-needy guy trying to live vicariously through Baldwin. Basic, easy, childish stuff.

Murder Sheet worked overtime to get immunity for their buddy Mark, the REAL leaker. Mark, the dude that actually sent crime scene photos to tons of vloggers. It might be more interesting to do a psych profile on Murder Sheet for having that creep as their source for Delphi.

The gangs posing/covering/"loyalty-bonding" as an O-brotherhood - some of them POIs in the Delphi case - some of them already in prison or out with time served for other violent crimes - are gang members. Garden variety criminals. Simple stuff. See motorcycle gang. What's to diagnose?

Murders "staged" as something else ... such as a fire ... or like a ritual ... are just murders. It's not that complicated. Purpose is to distract/confuse the investigation/truth. Sometimes it works such that figuring out the motive ... getting to the truth ... is quite complicated. But you already know this.

I have to go be nice and not naughty now. 48 hours should do it, right? Hope you enjoy your celebrations ever so much Gran!

I want to come back to this one because I don't have the time OR the energy right now. And it is a good debate lol. Which I enjoy even knowing it is also SAD as heck as there are real victims.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say here but totally disagree with other parts. It isn't a food post but you are up there with me in long, long, long posts. I read them when I get a moment and know my thoughts on every paragraph in response but by the end am overwhelmed. Don't get me wrong, I post some long ones too and that's what I likely do to others.

Right now I want to respond with points but now have to go how far back up to read again.

And it's funny because in this one, I agree with a lot of what you said and yet disagree with a lot of other things.

Let me scroll back up and try to keep track. Well at least Gull is robed and not naked as Libby was.

I've seen a lot of judges, men, in robes that dwarf them in the Good Old Boys kind of club.

I'm tired and it is after midnight, 2 a.m. but who is RF, i am drawing a blank.

Any female judge in this country or any state for that matter is under a need to prove something with the Good Ol Boys managing to hang on.

None of which should affect justice but it does, just as politics do these days, position and office. We get a rare one that may really care but they are still stuck in the power and politics that rule.

Admit it, you have a real hard on with Gull but a pass with Baldwin, etc. no?

In all lightness and a he77 of a debate and discussion. I am just talking now and really need to go back pu and read your post because I have responses to every paragraph and some in total agreement and some in disagreement but I'm tired and it is as long as my former food posts lol.

You have a hard on for Gull and okay. But you have a total pass for Old D and Westerman, etc. Why? And then Allen as well, another topic.

A loving relationship with mom and wife>> Seriously? I see HIM as passive aggressive. Your term.

Are we having fun yet lol? I hope I get a chance to read and respond to all you said and I read it but am just beyond right now.

And then there is Mitch of course and Allen and Baldwin and Rozzi and... and.... I truly think they need diagnoses...

Aside from the debate, I wish you a Merry Christmas. It sure isn't personal, I enjoy the debate and discussion. I hope I find time to go back and read this one and respond because I have a lot of responses to all of it, and even some agreement.

 

[Olenna]

I fail to see how anyone can read this and not see it for what it is and what is obvious. And now Baldwin was either on the phone or meeting with a client with door closed. Mitchy stopped by routinely to vist with STAFF AND BALDWIN and wandered I guess around the office and conference room and premises. This is a friend and FORMER employee RIGHT who never passed the bar but went to law school and who Baldwin routinely bounced case thoughts and strategies off of right? I am SORRY but DUH. This sh*t is so obvious it is not even funny. Oh yah his door was closed. I just happened by. Staff didn't stop me (who I often stopped by to visit with too)) as I wandered around and case photos just happened to be out and I don't know if he was meeting with a client or on a call but his door was CLOSED, etc., etc. etc. It is a NO BRAINER.

And then we have Rozzi playing very dumb and maybe he was but I don't think so. I won't go as hard on him because it is harder to be sure but these men had a plan and it is soooooo obvious of how and where they were going to take this case. Soooo very obvious.

The entire Westerman Baldwin office thing is clear. Rozzi I will let slide but I don't believe he was clueless either, just less evidence of it. This was their TICKET.

Imo ANYONE who believes the Westerman Baldwin thing is not thinking or is gullible as all he77.

It is sooooooo very clear. Man it is like the mob having the one who does the hits... A step or two away and if anything happens they claim it was them and take the fall. Just as Westerman did//is doing.

And then he channeled it and routed it as planned. And suicide guy KNEW HE would be the one to take the fall and the previous two in the chain, Baldwin and Westerman would PUT IT ON HIM and he was on his own and on one would believe him. Who can't see this?? It is soooo obvious

That is--IF it was truly suicide. I mean he could rat so maybe it wasn't...

If I were MW's wife, I'd get the he77 out too. And FAST.

Y'all are really into this conspiracy theory aren't you?

It's getting way too silly for me. Baldwin's not going to throw his illustrious career away at it's height to distribute crime scene photos to a bunch of no-body bloggers; pictures that he's already described in painful precise detail and diagrams in the Frank's memo. (Now THAT would be malpractice.)

Also, what's the risk/benefit here? Are these low-life bloggers paying hundreds of thousands for the photos? What gives?

THERE IS NO UPSIDE.

C'mon. Lawyers are not mobsters and this crap is NOT what lawyers do.

Most importantly, LE has closed this investigation.

We have beat this one to death. Go listen to the Westerman interview. He's nuts.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Here ya go!

The Delphi Murders: A March 2023 Interview with Alleged Delphi Leaker Mitch Westerman


have fun.

I haven't listened to this since we learned more about MW's involvements via court papers, affidavits, extra-marital affair, theft, arrest, divorce, and best friend's suicide, etc.

I won't listen again b/c it's real long slog.

But when I first listened, I left the podcast feeling like this Westerman dude ... is just off. I can't even believe he was anything more than ... maybe ... filings paralegal.

Here, MW is all stream of consciousness, repetitive, undisciplined unorganized, repetitive in some parts unable to close a point, sounds like he's high as a kite ... and it's no wonder he never passed the bar.

You may find yourself understanding why I find Westerman so, so very odd that it makes sense that Baldwin got him out of the firm, sighed in relief, and never gave him any work, let alone some super secret crime photo mission ... but Baldwin continued to accept his social visits knowing the man was decompensating and his world was falling apart.

I mean look at what Westerman destroyed after this MS interview:
law career, reputation, best friend, marriage, beloved colleague (Baldwin), and now he's charged with a crime.

I think it's not a stretch to say MW needs a diagnosis and meds/counseling.

Finally, I think it's completely illogical - for so many reasons - that the old D thought they needed to leak crime scene photos.

BUT ... if one MUST entertain that theory ... for argument's sake ...

One must then ask ... if ... you're a highly respected, well-known and successful criminal defense attorney at the peak of one's career arguing the most high profile trial of your career ... and ... you decide it's essential to leak to break some laws and to deliver to a long list of random non-journalist vloggers devastating crime scene photos (against a gag order). AND, for such a sensitive secret and illicit crime scene photo leak mission ... you choose a dude you just fired, who is clearly afflicted with vocal diahrrea if not some type of mania, who is making a mess of their life, regularly show poor judgement, is having an illicit affair, who seeks attention and cannot stop talking ever, who chooses another vet with massive emotional problems as middleman for said secret mission ... and then expect everything to work out swell?

Yeah, this is just one reason that I don't think so.

I have a bunch of other reasons, but I'll leave it there for now and look forward to your thoughts after listening to this odd "interview".

Huh? And what??

I admit I am tired and need to go to bed.

Believe me I want to respond to this one and the other.

I didn't even hit this case thread until now as I was trying to catch up on others and knew it would take time.

Westerman is "off" but you always forgive Baldwin and so forth. If he is off that is MORE reason to not allow him full access to his office.

Just a day or two ago you were citing Westerman as if what he says is truth, that Baldwin knew nothing, etc. and he "stole" unbeknownst to Baldwin. Bu talking like what he said or told LE was gospel.

Man I wish I had a life and more time because you and I could really go at it right now,, I have so much to say to your last posts. Civilly and good naturedly of couse.

No matter what happens or what you find out though, Gull is the problem and you excuse the men... No?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Y'all are really into this conspiracy theory aren't you?

It's getting way too silly for me. Baldwin's not going to throw his illustrious career away at it's height to distribute crime scene photos to a bunch of no-body bloggers; pictures that he's already described in painful precise detail and diagrams in the Frank's memo. (Now THAT would be malpractice.)

And Baldwin's not putting his trust in a dude he just fired, who's marriage is in crisis, and who's no longer able to work in the legal field.

Also, what's the risk/benefit here? Are these low-life bloggers paying hundreds of thousands for the photos? What gives?

THERE IS NO UPSIDE.

C'mon. Lawyers are not mobsters and this crap is NOT what lawyers do.

Most importantly, LE has closed this investigation.

We have beat this one to death. Go listen to the Westerman interview. He's nuts.

I don't do conspiracy. I don't follow anyone. Baldwin and an illustrious career? Lol. I mean he wouldn't be the first to lose it or have a midlife crisis, get on some substance or have a wannabe a somebody moment. You say that while Gull has a very good history and record. You go one side with that. @Imamazed pointed that out. Do Baldwin or Rozzi deserve theirr reputaions wecked? Does she? Who really threw all the sh*(t? You are very one sided in this.

His ILLUSTRIOUS career? He still chooses this. And they chose their actions Or lack of LOCKS. And poor choice in FRIENDS.

No?

I've said wipe the slate with all if need be. You though can only see it with total bias one way.

And what is really disgusting is politics and holding office is the thing beyond ever before over justice.

And yeah, anyone who is not seeing how far gone it has went is naive.

And Baldwin had some illustrious career? So did GULL. No???

I've seen many a judge and attorney who the page will say that about but anyone local will know better.

Why is it with you that Baldwn, etc. is illustrious when Gull too had had a he77 of a record and is as well?

You aren't unbiased. I'm not either. I'm fine with both thrown out. You aren't though.

Baldwin is corrupt.and crooked imo. Maybe he wasn't always. Maybe he justifies it as righting wrongs and the only way to fight back. Or maybe he just wants more and this case is his ticket where he is a somebody...

You ask why someone would risk an illustrious career??? Well then why would you allow some ex employee free reign and access to your LAW office and all rooms? I mean come on. Duh.

It is soooooooooo obvious.

Illustrious career yeah and thinking this case will skyrocket him. But then but then his client who it was too much trouble to travel and go see confessed like FIVE TIMES.

I love the debate but you only see one side. Gull has had a great career too but I'm fine with all removed if necessary. You only have a hard on for her and want her removed and the old D put back. Very one sided.

All in again good debate but I disagree and boy I wish I had more time as I really want to respond to your earlier post.

In the meantime

 

[GrandmaBear]

Y'all are really into this conspiracy theory aren't you?

It's getting way too silly for me. Baldwin's not going to throw his illustrious career away at it's height to distribute crime scene photos to a bunch of no-body bloggers; pictures that he's already described in painful precise detail and diagrams in the Frank's memo. (Now THAT would be malpractice.)

And Baldwin's not putting his trust in a dude he just fired, who's marriage is in crisis, and who's no longer able to work in the legal field.

Also, what's the risk/benefit here? Are these low-life bloggers paying hundreds of thousands for the photos? What gives?

THERE IS NO UPSIDE.

C'mon. Lawyers are not mobsters and this crap is NOT what lawyers do.

Most importantly, LE has closed this investigation.

We have beat this one to death. Go listen to the Westerman interview. He's nuts.

He's nuts and Baldwn allows him free access to his office, his rooms and staff. Uh-huh.

Well then Baldwin is a really stupid atty to allow a nutso like Westerman free reign. Oh gee.

Fill me in on the fired part and divorce part etc. as just today I see that from you trying to justify it. I had no clue.

Now Baldwin fired him?

I'd say wife has gotten smart, get the HE77 OUT.

Lawyers are not mobsters and it isn't what lawyers do? Have you met many, used any or followed this world and news??? Come on.

Yah. All lawyers are ethical and golden. I beg to differ. Sorry but that's really naive.

Love ya lol and the debate but just sayin'...

 

[Olenna]

Just a day or two ago you were citing Westerman as if what he says is truth, that Baldwin knew nothing, etc. and he "stole" unbeknownst to Baldwin. Bu talking like what he said or told LE was gospel.

clipped by me - quick point to make

yes.

Okay, look.

I reject the idea that Baldwin relies on a decompensating dude he fired months and months ago for a secret dangerous mission as sheer nonsense.

Here's the broad perspective:

By all appearances, Baldwin is a social extrovert type guy with a big personality and a big heart. READ HIS WEBSITE.

Westerman is no catch for a law firm. Here's a vet that worked his way through law school , got through and graduated, but can't pass the bar. I probably would not hire a project like Westerman. To hire this kind of guy into your firm as a paralegal - is an act of kindness, empathy, community service, patriotism, and faith. And that's okay. Westerman never progressed beyond paralegal. MS interview sounds like Westerman lost interest in even trying to pass the bar. Wants out of the law biz. The MS interview confirms Westerman is no longer working in the law. (Note: Non-descript as to what work MW does now.) Westerman sounds like he misses Baldwin.

YET here's the weird thing: Westerman (apparently) keeps visiting Baldwin.
This isn't Baldwin visiting Westerman.
Is this Baldwin being supportive, (I wonder?)

IMO, Baldwin released Westerman with the understanding Westerman was a friend and he could visit anytime. Westerman moved out of town. New job. But Westerman took the visiting condition seriously and they still talk shop.

So, he regularly visits Papa Baldwin, tells Baldwin he's visiting his girlfriend. (Note: While he's married.) (IMO, Westerman has a TMI tendency.)
MS says Marc showed them screen shots - Screen shots where RF suggests Baldwin consults w/ Westerman on RA case.

Bullhockey, IMO that Baldwin expects Westerman to leak. For me, it seems like Westerman is decompensating with all this oversharing.
For me it is incredulous that Baldwin would leak the crime scene photos to a bunch of loser vloggers as some sort of case jackpot.
And it's even more incredulous that Baldwin would task the dude he released from his firm to oversee a leak operation that brings even more unvetted bozos into a secret circle.

PS. What's up w/ believing when RA confesses but not believing when Westerman does????? LOLOL

It's crazymakin' this case! JMHO

 

[Tresir]

I am getting there could be something else that we don't know. RF is the guy who committed suicide. I am not aware that the investigation against the leak or even the suicide has been closed so if anyone has a link showing that, it would be appreciated.

I am pretty sure that Gull is an award winning judge from my memory when I looked into her record, because I was surprised.

I didn't know RA was a vet too. So he has something in common with MW and RF and the O's, I guess.

Is RA a SK? He is the suspect in a double murder at age 56 so he could also have hitherto unknown prior victims. Why did they move from Peru to Delphi, I wonder? Are there any unsolved murders in The Peru area?

Probably enough questions for now, anyway.