LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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IMO the technical argument would be that the confessions were involuntary, which would be another civil rights issue.
To some degree we've seen the D bring in coercive arguments ... and RA's (temporary) mental condition.

Amendments 5th and 14th would be in play
BBM the 5th Amendment rights - enlarged is the one considered related to involuntary confession one.

Fifth Amendment
This is like everything else, there is no evidence of coercement. I think there may well have been an ultimatum by his wife, etc. Where does this come from? Allegations and smoke and mirrors again right? Just opinion then.
 
Olenna has a good theory. I read somewhere that he said that they threatened him and/or his family if he didn't confess. I don't want to look for it again. Go back in this thread, it's there somewhere.

As far as not having any proof that these are racist Odinists, you need to know a lot more about the American history of racism. I have no trouble believing they are racists. I'd bet dollars to donuts they are.
In the Franks memo I believe there was conjecture that way that they made seem like fact on the page but then in a footnote said he never said any such thing and this was their assumption, it was widely talked about how odd and dumb even this was. Wasn't that the deal?

I don't know of a thing that has ever said Allen himself said this. And you apparently don't have a link or know it either.

Hitler had masses killed. The Klan killed. We all know this. It's fact. Now show me that a few IN guys claiming to be Os and a couple of guards ever did any such similar things?

Don't talk to me about racism. And Abby and Libby were WHITE. Arbery had racism and you know my opinion and position in that case. And even the McMichaels and Roddy were likely not KKK but just a group of racist beer drinking southern guys who set out to intimidate and not kill and thought they'd have some fun intimidating as a group against one they felt beneath them. That's racism.

There is NOTHING like this in this case. Just some weak rumor that Abby's mom dated someone outside of their race and that means these guys NAMED who can't be placed there did this to not just Abby but to Libby too? Why didn't they go after her mom or the guy?

C'mon emu that's weak. Plus you know I know racism as I've shown strongly that I do in other cases. YOU are all over the place on these cases. Now I suppose it is Ron Logan, Kline and the guards and the Os named and are torn about RA?
 
The WA Popo and PBS? Florida and Maryland?

I'm in the real world 'lenna, it isn't the same everywhere. Connect the dots for me in this case then. And tell me how it removes Allen?

Sorry but I'm not going to sidetrack into Hitler and the Klan based on a bunch of hooey from I think the worst examples of lawyers I have ever seen and believe me, that is saying a LOT as I've seen some corrupt or lousy ones.
 
I can't speak for @Olenna but I have had trouble with this whole thing from the beginning. Now I've heard (It's in this thread) that they don't have his DNA at the scene. I wonder if there's any foreign DNA that can't be explained right now.

It would be a pretty impressive trick for him to do everything he, allegedly did alone, without leaving his DNA behind.

My personal theory is that there are some bad cops in the local force that have manufactured some evidence. I'd say that includes eliciting the confessions. But for his saying he was there, they have nothing else. There is some evidence, again, go back in this thread, that the muddy/bloody witness may not have said that. It's also possible they don't exist.

I also wonder why they won't release his med reports to the defense. That is highly unusual. If he's on any prescriptions regularly we should know if he's getting those. We should also know about all of the other meds he's been given and when and why.
I too think there may be bad cops and DNR guys or some such and corruption in Delphi. The logical answer is someone made sure ALLEN who ADMITTED he was there and was a "tip" was NEVER LOOKED AT for years or asked for an alibi or anything else. THAT is what doesn't make sense.

To frame him is a ridiculous thought. Think about what it would take. And they were just lucky he was there so they chose him. And found the bullet back WHEN and fast forward how many years AND it is a match to his gun. And he HIMSELF says no one else ever used it or would have it.

If you have to come up with reasons for more than two or three things then it is almost impossible that it is the case.

This isn't the JFK assassination. And huge powers that be.

No time and impressive trick? Do you think Kohberger is innocent and framed too? Four people in shorter time. DNA as far as we know so far only on the sheath of the knife.

I don't know. I guess we will find out one day or will we? Questions may always remain.

I would remind all that we don't have a CLUE what else they may have found. Defense is the only one all over the place filing and publicly. Prosecution is not going to share and doesn't share with the public. Defense does it for a reason.
 
Lol you know I am going to disagree with this one don't ya?

A logic mixer. Throw in some common sense and no way.

That Franks memo is ridiculous and full of even stupid footnotes that this did not really happen kind of remark but we are just saying what if... RA never said so... Etc.

As far as a local jury, I would about bet locals know this O stuff isn't huge Hitler type of stuff and it's just "local guys" being whatever versus the ridiculous thoughts and conspiracies some in our nation have made of it.

They CANNOT take Allen away from being there and they CANNOT place an O there.

A logic shaker? I think it would land the other way than what you think unless someone thinks THAT way and falls for such.

I want to reiterate, all just discussion and I disagree. Nothing meant as a personal affront in any way.

Love debate.

to quickly clarify my meaning:
white nationalists are fascists, as was Hitler.
skinheads are fascists, as was Hitler.
KKK are fascists, as was Hitler.
If the local boys are white nationalists ... Hitler is their daddy. (so to speak).

If the local boys are just kids joining gangs with rituals that don't mean much to them except cool dressing and tats and patches ... well let's hope they grow out of that stuff quickly ... b/c the grown-ups running those gangs are recruiting and training white nationalists

No argument from me that RA was there, came forward, they had BG on tape, they had descriptions from others at the park ... and NO ONE CARED about RA for years! That matters (in court), we'll get to the bottom of it. Did they ruled out RA that first round b/c no eye-witnesses pointed to a 5'5" dude? Was RA's too short in stature for the eye-witness descriptions? Was RA too short for the BG video? That BG video had been 6 ft Ron Logan for 5 years and suddenly ... Ron's dead and suddenly, BG is now 5'5" RA. That's not evidence, it's a magic trick, an illusion. BG is whoever LE wants him to be at any moment.

I also think if the video was a shoe-in for RA, we'd know it by now.

Just sharing doubts, as I said, can't make decisions until the P lays out the journey and the story and answers for all the former BG suspects while ignoring RA. They're welcome to convince me at trial! I'd be a real pain in the neck jury b/c I want to consider EVERYTHING!! :D

JMHO
 
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Surely after RA files appropriate releases, following prescribed admin process, the prison(s) would release his med reports to his chosen attnys.

If RA gave permissions to Old D, Old D may have received these medical records.
But I don't think medical records could be handed over to New D (and I don't think Gull could compel they'd be given to New D) ... without RA's express release (again) to the New D.

At the moment, the timeline described by P is a challenge for me to swallow; they gave RA a timeline that perhaps a Ranger or Seal Team mission member could execute. Sure, RA was in the reserves, but he wasn't trained THAT way, nor in that kind of physical shape.

And that's just :cowcouch:
I am pretty sure Old D has the records and knowledge. It is the P who has not been allowed to get them. No?

So what is your opinion on the Kohberger case and the short time frame he had to kill four U of ID students?

We don't know the facts in Delphi. All we know is defense theory as to the death of the girls and their claim of no way. When prosecution responded which they did to the Franks motion, they did not touch that stuff but stuck to the law and points needed instead of filing some thousands of pages of a response and attachments. Defense theorizes in it amongst a ton of other things. You don't take a position right or a side and are content to wait and see? I don't see that at all. And you take defense allegations on as if they are truth. You definitely show a position.

I've hidden behind the cow couch myself. If we ever find ourselves both behind it, I hope we don't end up duking it out but... Lol.
 
You said it "the O-Theory" is just that - a theory which can be ditched at the drop of a hat at any time. Nothing much to choose between them at this moment in time, which puts Old D in front by a nose, simply because they are who RA wants.
I'm not so sure on this one. It is one issue I really wait to see the decision on. Allen cannot choose his public defenders nor can any defendant as I understand it. And it was only after they were "fired" OR withdrew (debatable too with one) that they said they'd work as private attorneys pro bono.

I have an opinion on it of course but the ISC's decision on that and this circumstance is going to be new case law to cite in future cases imo.

Personally I think the fact they did this or offered this after the fact should null it.

But we will see. I don't think we will see a decision or at least the reasons for it tomorrow (I believe neither, it will come later with all of that), but we will be able to judge the arguments, how effective they seem and if citations on cases relate or are the most current, etc.

I agree the O theory is ridiculous. And if there is anything corrupt it is just the opposite of what some think imo.

How long had these guards had O patches would be one thing I'd like to know.... Along with a lot of other things... Like why Allen was never looked at seriously and followed up on in all these years... We all now the "story" of it but for real...
 
I am pretty sure Old D has the records and knowledge. It is the P who has not been allowed to get them. No?

So what is your opinion on the Kohberger case and the short time frame he had to kill four U of ID students?

We don't know the facts in Delphi. All we know is defense theory as to the death of the girls and their claim of no way. When prosecution responded which they did to the Franks motion, they did not touch that stuff but stuck to the law and points needed instead of filing some thousands of pages of a response and attachments. Defense theorizes in it amongst a ton of other things. You don't take a position right or a side and are content to wait and see? I don't see that at all. And you take defense allegations on as if they are truth. You definitely show a position.

I've hidden behind the cow couch myself. If we ever find ourselves both behind it, I hope we don't end up duking it out but... Lol.

not following kohberger or anything else at this time. :cowcouch:

I look at defense points as the bringin' the doubt arrows they are - to bring doubt!! Can they bring doubt? Maybe ... and that's their theory. Yeah it's a maybe they can bring doubt with the FM theory from me. Did LE lie? uh oh! C'mon LE fight back!

Does that mean I support the D? Poppycock!! It means I'm watching the game, the tennis, the chess board, etc.

Can prosecution overcome it? We'll see! They haven't had a chance yet... But their PCA was - IMO - weak sauce. What else are they bringing?

They did respond to the FM; ignored the FM. You see that as cool, I see it as ... the focus of the P on the case they need to make in front of them.

I think it's funny how frustrated y'all get with someone who sits in the middling and can appreciate the arguments of both sides ... and likes to see you're arguments (obviously or I'd not be here) and likes to share stuff too.

Just relax. You don't need to stuff me in a square or round hole. Okay?
 
How long had these guards had O patches would be one thing I'd like to know.... Along with a lot of other things... Like why Allen was never looked at seriously and followed up on in all these years... We all now the "story" of it but for real...

there ya go. We agree on these items!!
 
Still, of all the terms rooted in European paganism contained in the court filing, Odinism is the one experts today said hints most strongly at affiliations with white supremacy. It is rarely used in Europe.
“There's a thing to keep in mind with Odinism. That is that has, from the beginning, been associated with the white supremacist interpretation of [Nordic paganism]. So, there are very few people who call themselves Odinists who don't admit to some level of sympathy for white supremacy,” said Nordvig.

This gives you an idea of how and why Odinism is turned into a white supremecy thing. They can organize under a mantle of "religion" and have meetings.
Anything as far as sacrifices and murders by such in IN?

I could compare this to like bikers who are or were members of Hell's Angels or the Uglies. Doesn't mean all are the same and it sure doesn't mean some don't put on the patch or claim to be.

How many murders have been put down to them in IN and who are the REAL involved members and do they go after white children?

Right there along with lack of any O being at the trails loses me completely. I could more easily believe aliens from outer space did it as who knows maybe they are invisible where earthlings are not.
I understand you are not saying any of that, I am responding to the issues. You surprised me a few months back when you said I think you do think Allen is guilty and your issue is with where hie is housed and how he is treated.

And so again I can understand that, I just don't have reason or cause yet to think the same.

I'd also like to add even if he did this to these children, which I believe he did, I can get to where I could say kill him or lock him up with perverts and throw away the ke[y BUT I truly don't want him beaten or abused or tortured but I don't have a single reason to think he is. I WANT him to stand trial and be alive to do so and pay for his deeds. It is another reason I want him safe and it has been a year and he has not been murdered or suicided has he?

I know you don't like that he is in a prison but can you at least see that it has been a year and no one has taken him out nor has he killed himself? I really do believe it is a lot of allegations and smoke and mirrors without substance.
 
The WA Popo and PBS? Florida and Maryland?

I'm in the real world 'lenna, it isn't the same everywhere. Connect the dots for me in this case then. And tell me how it removes Allen?

Sorry but I'm not going to sidetrack into Hitler and the Klan based on a bunch of hooey from I think the worst examples of lawyers I have ever seen and believe me, that is saying a LOT as I've seen some corrupt or lousy ones.

You can read Gma Bear, when you have time. So many article, above I told Tresir my google prompt key words - the responses exploded and largely technical reports and lawsuits.

I don't want this thread to think that I think that Indiana is currently a White-Supremecist-KKK haven; because I don't.
So, I chose articles that show this issue is a national experience - a phenomenon with correction officers ... it's a brotherhood and if you're a correction officer, you have to brotherhood up. Pick a side. One or the other. One side ... the white guard side ... is ODINIST.

*****

Reminds me ... a little bid ... of the bellman in the honorable old hotel I worked in long ago. OMG they were Irish Mafia and no one that wasn't Irish could ever be a bellman. They made BANK!!! They had their own union, bargained on their own ... throughout the city, ever doorman a Irish man. You couldn't get in the union if you weren't Irish and you couldn't get a bellman job if you weren't in the union.

You don't have to like old D and you're welcome to think they're hooey; but - in spite of your protestations - turns out - they're absolutely not making this Odinism in the Prisons stuff out of whole cloth ... which is the point of my links on the topic.

Don't worry. You can deny it all ya want. I don't care. LOL.
 
Thanks @Olenna and @RoundPeg For the pasta.

I still fail to see any motive for Odinists/Asatruists to slaughter two white teenage girls.
I just reached this post but already said the same. It is just another thing of too many to explain. With Hitler it was Jews. With the Klan it was black folk. So how and why do racists that are the same allegedly by some come to kill two white teen girls and are the same or similar? It's a stretch on its own but with everything else it is a ridiculous conspiracy theory to explain all.
 
I just reached this post but already said the same. It is just another thing of too many to explain. With Hitler it was Jews. With the Klan it was black folk. So how and why do racists that are the same allegedly by some come to kill two white teen girls and are the same or similar? It's a stretch on its own but with everything else it is a ridiculous conspiracy theory to explain all.

Hold on.

White Supremicists don't take any oath not to kill white people. They kill white people too.
They form gangs, are widely known to run drugs in Indiana, viciously compete with other drug gangs, burning people in their own homes for retribution seems to be one popular sport these gangs play in areas surrounding Delphi.

Warning - Speculative Theory here:
The girls' murder - motive is not race. Not CSA. It's something else entirely ... and the staged crime scene was a type of messaging ... for some purpose that the D needs to figure out if they want anyone to buy in.

Don't shoot the translator/speculator. LOL :cowcouch:

Also, I'm speculating based on activities reported in the Franks Memo and from reading about the local fires near Delphi and from listening to the girls family members who admit there's a deep connection to drug running with both girls' family members. (The ones they - reportedly - Didn't live with; the ones that -reportedly - avoided the press, that didn't participate in interviews, the ones the grandparents won't let the kids be with.)

All speculation and noodling about how the D thinks they're going to give that Franks Memo wings.
 
I just reached this post but already said the same. It is just another thing of too many to explain. With Hitler it was Jews. With the Klan it was black folk. So how and why do racists that are the same allegedly by some come to kill two white teen girls and are the same or similar? It's a stretch on its own but with everything else it is a ridiculous conspiracy theory to explain all.

The Klan hated blacks, Catholics, Jewish people, all non WASPS. They didn't stick to just blacks.
 
BBM

It is not definitely from his sig sauer. That's a popular misconception. The markings found on the bullet aren't the same as matching bullets that have been fired. It's not a cinch match like a bullet. It's interesting, but not conclusive. I'm not aware of it being used in any other trial. Has it ever passed voire dire?

Maybe nothing was found at his house. We don't know.

His vehicle driving by the Hoosiers store is not evidence he killed anyone.

The muddy bloody witness might exist, but a name doesn't mean that. Has anyone talked to them, other than the cops? What the person said is in serious doubt. If he was in fact muddy and bloody, why can't they find any evidence of that in his car? It's been several years, but I've seen many documentaries on evidence. Blood seeps into tiny areas that aren't washed. If he in fact had been that muddy and bloody I'd think someone other than a passer by would have seen him.

He has a Blue Carhart Jacket, is it the same one from 2017?

If he was smart he would have sold that car after cleaning and bought another one.

Lack of his DNA

A crime scene that would be very hard for one person to do alone in the amount of time he had.

The Odinist theory is just as believable, at this time, of the theory he did it alone.

I am not accepting what the prosecution is saying without question. If he is being railroaded, he wouldn't be the first one in this country.

The lack of his DNA is a HUGE sticking point for me. Also, the theory he did it alone is hard to believe for me.

This is an article from when the Odinist theory came out. Here are a couple of interesting things:

Court docs reveal horrifying new claims in killing of 2 young girls in Delphi, Indiana

"Early on in the investigation, authorities consulted with a Purdue University professor concerning what resembled possible Odinism signatures left behind at the crime scene, the defense attorneys wrote. But that angle was "essentially abandoned" after the professor told law enforcement "it was not Odinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime," as stated in the filing.


According to the memorandum, as of Sept. 7, the investigators claim they can't identify who the purported professor is, have no reports from the purported professor and have indicated they may never be able to figure out who the person is."

Here is more about the mystery professor being identified and what he said:


The article is on an MSN connected website, so that's why the funny link, but works.

From the article:

According to our sister station at WTHR, Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett swore under oath on Aug. 8, 2023, that a professor at Purdue did not believe sticks on the bodies were Odinist symbols. The defense went on to say that Prosecutor Nick McLeland allegedly told the defense the prosecution was unable to identify the professor on Sept. 6, 2023.

Read the Delphi murders investigation timeline here

Allen’s attorneys then claimed that State Trooper Jerry Holeman said in the months after the girls’ murders that the professor, identified as Jeffrey Turco, told him it was, “not Odisinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime,” and officials abandoned the cult theory.

Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

The defense claims that the prosecution has sent countless hard drives, flash drives, and discs with hundreds of pages of paperwork between Sept. 8 and Sept. 27. It claims the interview with Turco was on a thumb drive delivered on Sep. 27, and was only marked with the professor’s name and not his title.


In the court documents, Allen’s attorneys claimed several people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early in the investigation without reason.

The defense claimed one of the people, allegedly cleared by investigators early in the investigation, had social media posts with imagery that matched what the defense claims were pagan symbols at the crime scene. Upon seeing the images, an Indiana State Police investigator allegedly requested another interview be done with the potential suspect, but Allen’s defense attorneys do not believe officials ever followed up.
I still don't buy it. The guys they name have alibis and Libby has him recorded on her phone. He's toast.
 
I just addressed this myself. More than once I think. Not sure, I'm tired.

I said similar about some guys they named that can't be put at the site and two guards they can't place there nor connect to the named gusy in the communities. And as far as Hitler and the KKK talk about generalizing and we KNOW murders occurred related to both. We know NO SUCH thing about the ones named in the memo nor about the guards. Talk about a leap and generalizing.

You and I as we know by far don't always agree but imo you are seeing this one for exactly what it is and making very good points Tresir.

I'll be watching tomorrow. I have as always a lot of things to take care of but am going to watch this regardless. I have the next two days off and only hope I can take care of what I need to on Friday or at least put out the fires.

Let's all who can even though watching come in and comment shall we? During?
I probably won't be able to watch live but will catch up after.
 
Hold on.

White Supremicists don't take any oath not to kill white people. They kill white people too.
They form gangs, are widely known to run drugs in Indiana, viciously compete with other drug gangs, burning people in their own homes for retribution seems to be one popular sport these gangs play in areas surrounding Delphi.

Warning - Speculative Theory here:
The girls' murder - motive is not race. Not CSA. It's something else entirely ... and the staged crime scene was a type of messaging ... for some purpose that the D needs to figure out if they want anyone to buy in.

Don't shoot the translator/speculator. LOL :cowcouch:

Also, I'm speculating based on activities reported in the Franks Memo and from reading about the local fires near Delphi and from listening to the girls family members who admit there's a deep connection to drug running with both girls' family members. (The ones they - reportedly - Didn't live with; the ones that -reportedly - avoided the press, that didn't participate in interviews, the ones the grandparents won't let the kids be with.)

All speculation and noodling about how the D thinks they're going to give that Franks Memo wings.
So now you are attacking the girls' parents? That speculation is way out of order and probably against the rules.
 
not following kohberger or anything else at this time. :cowcouch:

I look at defense points as the bringin' the doubt arrows they are - to bring doubt!! Can they bring doubt? Maybe ... and that's their theory. Yeah it's a maybe they can bring doubt with the FM theory from me. Did LE lie? uh oh! C'mon LE fight back!

Does that mean I support the D? Poppycock!! It means I'm watching the game, the tennis, the chess board, etc.

Can prosecution overcome it? We'll see! They haven't had a chance yet... But their PCA was - IMO - weak sauce. What else are they bringing?

They did respond to the FM; ignored the FM. You see that as cool, I see it as ... the focus of the P on the case they need to make in front of them.

I think it's funny how frustrated y'all get with someone who sits in the middling and can appreciate the arguments of both sides ... and likes to see you're arguments (obviously or I'd not be here) and likes to share stuff too.

Just relax. You don't need to stuff me in a square or round hole. Okay?
I don't think anything about this is remotely funny or that anyone wants to stuff you in a hole, so no worries there.
 

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