LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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Ok so you don't have any actual evidence that the two Wabash Odinist guards are KKK or Hitler lovers and drugged the inmate in order to get him to confess. That's what I thought.

Much like the Old D's SODDI defence, who have no actual sightings of their chosen Odinists on the trails that day at all, or any physical evidence they were there either.

lol. That's what you want? Sorry to disappoint.

Bummer but ... we're all just waiting for trial, see what evidence is brought.
 
lol. That's what you want? Sorry to disappoint.

Bummer but ... we're all just waiting for trial, see what evidence is brought.
I want justice for these two girls and their families. Not a bunch of smoke and mirrors. We know what hard evidence the prosecution has but the defence have just been making it up as they go along and I am disappointed that he may not even get a robust defence from these clowns.
 
Just to clarify my earlier post...

You can talk about Christianity AS IT RELATES TO THE CASE. Just like you can talk about Odinism or anything else as they relate to the case.
But what we're not going to do is argue about what the bible says about criminals or punishments or whatever. Or who believes which part of the bible applies more. Or who needs to re-read the bible. Or literally anything else. Personal opinions about how you feel your religion relates are not necessary.
 
I want justice for these two girls and their families. Not a bunch of smoke and mirrors. We know what hard evidence the prosecution has but the defence have just been making it up as they go along and I am disappointed that he may not even get a robust defence from these clowns.

interesting.

True that the D and the P are NOT held to the same standards of PROVING a case.
However any Evidence from D or P and their experts ARE held to same standards - ostensibly by a fair and unbiased Judge.
My thinking - in this case - we're still waiting on evidence from both sides at this point and smoke/mirrors won't be admissible.

IMO, both sets of D like the O-Theory and both sets of D are experienced, well-respected criminal attorneys with more than 40 years experience on each team more than capable of bringing a robust defense. One slight concern I had was whether Gull's home-town D-team would capitulate to Gull's preferences ... but with their first motion, that worry (for me) has evaporated.

Judge is there to call balls and strikes throughout the arguments ... Judge is not there to take out one team entirely (especially not at the behest of the other team) ... because she objects to their flashy verbose style.

We'll see tomorrow, and as a good sport, today is "Make the Hat You Can Eat tomorrow if necessary Day"
 
I haven't heard that RA has revoked his confessions, has anyone else got any info on that yet?

IMO the technical argument would be that the confessions were involuntary, which would be another civil rights issue.
To some degree we've seen the D bring in coercive arguments ... and RA's (temporary) mental condition.

Amendments 5th and 14th would be in play
BBM the 5th Amendment rights - enlarged is the one considered related to involuntary confession one.

Fifth Amendment
 
Have you got a link for that and how they were coerced and by whom? Has he withdrawn the confessions?

FWIW - I'm thinking possibly that confessions were DUI. (delivered under the influence) ...
We won't know until related evidentiary hearing covers that topic if the confessions are admissible.

Olenna has a good theory. I read somewhere that he said that they threatened him and/or his family if he didn't confess. I don't want to look for it again. Go back in this thread, it's there somewhere.

As far as not having any proof that these are racist Odinists, you need to know a lot more about the American history of racism. I have no trouble believing they are racists. I'd bet dollars to donuts they are.
 
And yeah comparing such to anyone like Hitler or the KKK is over the top. Old D would love that though as it is just the kind of thing they'd hope for and intended for those that fall for this.

I think what is so disgusting is to me it is all so obvious and to you but fueled by Old D and a whole lot of people and news out there, a number fell for all this like and forgot the causes and issues like confessions, then leaks and a suicide and Old D focused on and more and went with every single thing the Old D did to divert and sn*wball.

Thankfully the ISC didn't treat it like some life and death situation or fall for the attempts and the public bluster, because it is not life and death. And a whole lot of b.s. occurred to fuzz it all. To no avail to date thank God.

I think Old D is both dangerous in their ways and not the best educated attorneys either unless they pursue the wrong course of action in the wrong way intentionally.

We can cite many things but just for one, why did they not try to substitute Gull. Why did they not deal with and talk to the holding facility, the prison, to accommodate their needs or about their concerns? That's obvious too as to the most likely answer. They wanted and needed to cause a stir and wanted it public. Over and over.

I am willing in almost all matters to change an opinion but there is LITTLE to NOTHING that can change my opinion about Old D. I think less than the lowest about them and think (and only did this over time and seeing through it) they are scum. Both. But most particularly and specifically Baldwin.

Well, if I have it right, the ISC arguments are tomorrow is that right?

A Plethora of Prison Correctional Officer Consultations available on google ... come join the real world. ;)

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/white-supremacist-prison-guards-work-with-impunity-in-florida


https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/01/17/maryland-prison-lawsuit-white-gang-correctional-officers/
 
I think to say this about the prison guards with no evidence they are versions of skinheads/Hitler/KKK etc is wrong.

So you think racist white nationalists killed the girls? Have I got that right? You believe the "race trader" theory?

I think the lawyers saw the patches and came up with the ridiculous Odinist theory themselves and leaked the crime scene photos accidentally on purpose to get the press coverage for their theory. It worked and they got their coverage. Judge Gull was right to give them the chance to stand down for the leaks. Remember they also leaked evidence to a guy who had a case against the Carroll County Sheriff. How convenient there were two such "accidents". Now the new D are taking it up because they have no other defence either.

I can't speak for @Olenna but I have had trouble with this whole thing from the beginning. Now I've heard (It's in this thread) that they don't have his DNA at the scene. I wonder if there's any foreign DNA that can't be explained right now.

It would be a pretty impressive trick for him to do everything he, allegedly did alone, without leaving his DNA behind.

My personal theory is that there are some bad cops in the local force that have manufactured some evidence. I'd say that includes eliciting the confessions. But for his saying he was there, they have nothing else. There is some evidence, again, go back in this thread, that the muddy/bloody witness may not have said that. It's also possible they don't exist.

I also wonder why they won't release his med reports to the defense. That is highly unusual. If he's on any prescriptions regularly we should know if he's getting those. We should also know about all of the other meds he's been given and when and why.
 
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Ok so you don't have any actual evidence that the two Westville Odinist guards are KKK or Hitler lovers and drugged the inmate in order to get him to confess.

In fact you don't even have any examples from Indiana, just Maryland and Florida.

That's what I thought.

Much like the Old D's SODDI defence, who have no actual sightings of their chosen Odinists on the trails that day at all, or any physical evidence they were there either.
Here's some info on Indiana.

 
I can't speak for @Olenna but I have had trouble with this whole thing from the beginning. Now I've heard (It's in this thread) that they don't have his DNA at the scene. I wonder if there's any foreign DNA that can't be explained right now.

It would be a pretty impressive trick for him to do everything he, allegedly did alone, without leaving his DNA behind.

My personal theory is that there are some bad cops in the local force that have manufactured some evidence. I'd say that includes eliciting the confessions. But for his saying he was there, they have nothing else. There is some evidence, again, go back in this thread, that the muddy/bloody witness may not have said that. It's also possible they don't exist.

I also wonder why they won't release his med reports to the defense. That is highly unusual. If he's on any prescriptions regularly we should know if he's getting those. We should also know about all of the other meds he's been given and when and why.

Surely after RA files appropriate releases, following prescribed admin process, the prison(s) would release his med reports to his chosen attnys.

If RA gave permissions to Old D, Old D may have received these medical records.
But I don't think medical records could be handed over to New D (and I don't think Gull could compel they'd be given to New D) ... without RA's express release (again) to the New D.

At the moment, the timeline described by P is a challenge for me to swallow; they gave RA a timeline that perhaps a Ranger or Seal Team mission member could execute. Sure, RA was in the reserves, but he wasn't trained THAT way, nor in that kind of physical shape.

And that's just :cowcouch:
 
Surely after RA files appropriate releases, following prescribed admin process, the prison(s) would release his med reports to his chosen attnys.

If RA gave permissions to Old D, Old D may have received these medical records.
But I don't think medical records could be handed over to New D (and I don't think Gull could compel they'd be given to New D) ... without RA's express release (again) to the New D.

At the moment, the timeline described by P is a challenge for me to swallow; they gave RA a timeline that perhaps a Ranger or Seal Team mission member could execute. Sure, RA was in the reserves, but he wasn't trained THAT way, nor in that kind of physical shape.

And that's just :cowcouch:

SHE'S BEHIND THE COUCH!!! :laughing:
 
interesting.

True that the D and the P are NOT held to the same standards of PROVING a case.
However any Evidence from D or P and their experts ARE held to same standards - ostensibly by a fair and unbiased Judge.
My thinking - in this case - we're still waiting on evidence from both sides at this point and smoke/mirrors won't be admissible.

IMO, both sets of D like the O-Theory and both sets of D are experienced, well-respected criminal attorneys with more than 40 years experience on each team more than capable of bringing a robust defense. One slight concern I had was whether Gull's home-town D-team would capitulate to Gull's preferences ... but with their first motion, that worry (for me) has evaporated.

Judge is there to call balls and strikes throughout the arguments ... Judge is not there to take out one team entirely (especially not at the behest of the other team) ... because she objects to their flashy verbose style.

We'll see tomorrow, and as a good sport, today is "Make the Hat You Can Eat tomorrow if necessary Day"
You said it "the O-Theory" is just that - a theory which can be ditched at the drop of a hat at any time. Nothing much to choose between them at this moment in time, which puts Old D in front by a nose, simply because they are who RA wants.
 
Here's some info on Indiana.

Can you copy pasta the relevant bits because

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Can you copy pasta the relevant bits because

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Pasting relevant bits that pertain to Indiana.

Odinism has been around, in the American far-right white supremacist world for decades, but with different strata in regards to whether some folks just get a tattoo of these gods or symbols, or if they fully adhere to it,” Levin explained.
In the early 2000s in Indiana, a racist skinhead group called the Vinlanders Social Club, who identified as Odinists, formed in Indiana. That grew to be one of the largest and most hardcore, racist skinhead groups in the country. But, by the mid 2010s, membership had largely filtered out. Still, others remain entrenched in the state's prison system.
 
Pasting relevant bits that pertain to Indiana.

Odinism has been around, in the American far-right white supremacist world for decades, but with different strata in regards to whether some folks just get a tattoo of these gods or symbols, or if they fully adhere to it,” Levin explained.
In the early 2000s in Indiana, a racist skinhead group called the Vinlanders Social Club, who identified as Odinists, formed in Indiana. That grew to be one of the largest and most hardcore, racist skinhead groups in the country. But, by the mid 2010s, membership had largely filtered out. Still, others remain entrenched in the state's prison system.
Odinism is fairly common among white supremacist prison gang members in Indiana. You've got two large gangs, the Indiana Aryan Brotherhood and the Saxon Knights present in the Indiana prison system. It gets a little complicated, because religious groups in prison can get certain privileges like meetings and so forth. And so some people claim to be of a particular religion without necessarily wholeheartedly believing in it," said Dr. Mark Pitcavage, who a historian and authority on extremism in the United States with the Anti-Defamation League.
He, too, reiterated not all Norse paganists are white supremacists. The overall desire for white supremacists to claim facets of European paganism as a philosophical harbor for racist beliefs took off in earnest in the mid 19th century, as European states sought to reclaim a sense of shared national identity and reached back to a perceived - often erroneous - shared heritage to do so. Symbols were an easy way to do that.
"White supremacists like symbols, they borrow or symbols from a lot of different places, or create their own symbols, and then use them in a variety of ways. And that includes, but it's not limited to Norse pagan symbols," Pitcavage said.
Despite the prevalence of terms referenced now by U.S.-based white supremacist groups, Nordic, heathen or broadly European pagan belief systems do not reflect the racist ideals of the organizations now coopting their symbolism.
“This kind of Nordic mythology fit in well with groups who talked about conquering, and being a warrior for your cause, and your homeland, and your race. So, it really was bastardized and then exploited in a new toxic venom,” Levin said.
By World War II, leaders of the Third Reich would often incorporate symbolic elements of European paganism into nationalistic ideologies to the extent that it was “relevant for them to do”, according to Dr. Matthias Nordvig, who is a professor specializing in pre-Christian Nordic mythologies at University of Colorado Boulder’s Nordic Department.
 
Can you copy pasta the relevant bits because

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No pasta, Some Vinlander; hope this helps:


'Odinism': How white supremacists co-opt pagan symbols to further racist agendas in the United States​

White supremacists have long had a tendency to steal, then subvert, the original meaning of symbols and runes used by peaceful, pagan religions worldwide.


Author: Madison Stacey
Published: 6:23 PM EDT September 19, 2023
Updated: 10:12 AM EDT September 21, 2023

INDIANA, USA — Throughout the entirety of a gruesome 132-page document that saw defense attorneys working to shift blame for the Delphi murders out of suspect Richard Allen’s hands into those of a cult of Nordic pagans, the word Odinism appears dozens of times.
It is a term anchoring a new theory put forth by Allen’s attorneys, Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi, that contends, in part, that Abigail Williams and Liberty German were “ritualistically sacrificed” by a group of white supremacists entrenched in a Nordic pagan cult.

Evidence of this so-called Odinist involvement, Allen’s attorneys claimed in a filing released on Monday, could be found in a reported rash of runic symbols discovered at the crime scene, and in an alleged contingency of Odinist law enforcement officers now keeping watch over Allen at Westville Correctional Facility.

But, what does ‘Odinism,’ or Odinist, actually mean?
Broadly, the word refers to a belief system that centers Odin, the Norse god of war and death. That a seemingly ancient term rooted in the beliefs of medieval European pagans would show up in a document filed by attorneys in a Carroll County courthouse does not come as a shock for scores of civil rights advocacy organizations keeping tabs on white supremacist organizations throughout the United States.

Hate groups have been pulling symbols, words and ideologies rooted in European pagan belief systems to advance racist beliefs for decades. Criminologist and civil rights attorney Dr. Brian Levin has won awards for his experience tracking hate groups and extremism at California State’s Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism and said, throughout nearly 37 years of continual work in that space, he receives requests to define Odinism about once every three years.

Those first inquiries about ‘Odinism’ first began in the mid-1970s when, Levin explained, a widespread renewed interest in earth centered, pre-Christian belief systems percolated throughout the United States. White supremacist groups sought to realign themselves with more contemporary subcultures.
“Odinism has been around, in the American far-right white supremacist world for decades, but with different strata in regards to whether some folks just get a tattoo of these gods or symbols, or if they fully adhere to it,” Levin explained.

In the early 2000s in Indiana, a racist skinhead group called the Vinlanders Social Club, who identified as Odinists, formed in Indiana. That grew to be one of the largest and most hardcore, racist skinhead groups in the country. But, by the mid 2010s, membership had largely filtered out. Still, others remain entrenched in the state's prison system.

"Odinism is fairly common among white supremacist prison gang members in Indiana. You've got two large gangs, the Indiana Aryan Brotherhood and the Saxon Knights present in the Indiana prison system. It gets a little complicated, because religious groups in prison can get certain privileges like meetings and so forth. And so some people claim to be of a particular religion without necessarily wholeheartedly believing in it," said Dr. Mark Pitcavage, who a historian and authority on extremism in the United States with the Anti-Defamation League.


He, too, reiterated not all Norse paganists are white supremacists. The overall desire for white supremacists to claim facets of European paganism as a philosophical harbor for racist beliefs took off in earnest in the mid 19th century, as European states sought to reclaim a sense of shared national identity and reached back to a perceived - often erroneous - shared heritage to do so. Symbols were an easy way to do that.

"White supremacists like symbols, they borrow or symbols from a lot of different places, or create their own symbols, and then use them in a variety of ways. And that includes, but it's not limited to Norse pagan symbols," Pitcavage said.

Despite the prevalence of terms referenced now by U.S.-based white supremacist groups, Nordic, heathen or broadly European pagan belief systems do not reflect the racist ideals of the organizations now coopting their symbolism.

“This kind of Nordic mythology fit in well with groups who talked about conquering, and being a warrior for your cause, and your homeland, and your race. So, it really was bastardized and then exploited in a new toxic venom,” Levin said.
By World War II, leaders of the Third Reich would often incorporate symbolic elements of European paganism into nationalistic ideologies to the extent that it was “relevant for them to do”, according to Dr. Matthias Nordvig, who is a professor specializing in pre-Christian Nordic mythologies at University of Colorado Boulder’s Nordic Department.

“It was more language and symbolism that could signal to the general population that we represent this thing as Germanic heritage. And they did the same thing with Christianity, and used the churches in Germany to spread their propaganda,” Nordvig said.
Still, of all the terms rooted in European paganism contained in the court filing, Odinism is the one experts today said hints most strongly at affiliations with white supremacy. It is rarely used in Europe.

“There's a thing to keep in mind with Odinism. That is that has, from the beginning, been associated with the white supremacist interpretation of [Nordic paganism]. So, there are very few people who call themselves Odinists who don't admit to some level of sympathy for white supremacy,” said Nordvig.
The word "folk" or "folkish" also hints at ties to white supremacy groups.

A more complicated term is Asatrú, which also pops up in the Carroll County filing. That term refers to the general worship of Nordic gods and goddesses, and Asatrú has been officially recognized as a religion in Iceland since 1972.
In tracking whether certain groups have ties to white supremacist organizations, Nordvig said he tends to find European references to Asatrú are talkinga bout the original, European pagan belief system. Those groups are often not racist.
However, references to Asatrú in the United States are more likely to have ties to white supremacist groups. The use of the word Asatrú by white supremacists has prompted many of pagan faiths to do away with the term altogether.

“I have seen in recent years that people who identify with more liberal ideology lean towards Norse paganism as a term, and shy away from Asatrú, because as they say, it has been tainted by being co-opted by different white supremacist, and extreme right organizations. But, on the other hand, in Europe, Asatrú is the common term. In Europe, if you say Asatrú, people would not necessarily associate that with any form of extremism," Nordvig said.

Allen's attorneys claim several people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early on in the investigation without reason.
"Law enforcement’s failure to actively pursue the obvious links between the crime scene and Odinism is confounding," Allen's defense team wrote in the filing.

Allen’s defense team claimed lead investigators involved in the Delphi murder investigation consulted with a Purdue professor concerning what resembled, according to them, pagan symbols possibly Odinist in nature that were left behind at the crime scene, no later than February 2018.
 
Can you copy pasta the relevant bits because

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Reference #18.e847b5c.1705529232.91ae0b5b
Still, of all the terms rooted in European paganism contained in the court filing, Odinism is the one experts today said hints most strongly at affiliations with white supremacy. It is rarely used in Europe.
“There's a thing to keep in mind with Odinism. That is that has, from the beginning, been associated with the white supremacist interpretation of [Nordic paganism]. So, there are very few people who call themselves Odinists who don't admit to some level of sympathy for white supremacy,” said Nordvig.

This gives you an idea of how and why Odinism is turned into a white supremecy thing. They can organize under a mantle of "religion" and have meetings.
 

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