LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Tresir]

I can't speak for @Olenna but I have had trouble with this whole thing from the beginning. Now I've heard (It's in this thread) that they don't have his DNA at the scene. I wonder if there's any foreign DNA that can't be explained right now.

It would be a pretty impressive trick for him to do everything he, allegedly did alone, without leaving his DNA behind.

My personal theory is that there are some bad cops in the local force that have manufactured some evidence. I'd say that includes eliciting the confessions. But for his saying he was there, they have nothing else. There is some evidence, again, go back in this thread, that the muddy/bloody witness may not have said that. It's also possible they don't exist.

I also wonder why they won't release his med reports to the defense. That is highly unusual. If he's on any prescriptions regularly we should know if he's getting those. We should also know about all of the other meds he's been given and when and why.

They do have his bullet at the scene though so maybe there are fingerprints or DNA on that, but it definitely came from his Sig Sauer weapon and noone else's.

As for lack of his DNA he was pretty much covered up but perhaps the girls DNA was found at belongings at his house eg on a souvenir.

They have his vehicle on the Hoosier store video too. They have recorded confessions from Westville which had nothing to do with cops from Carroll County.

I do suspect there is something weird in his medical records. Eg perhaps he is an alcoholic or addicted to something. (He works in a pharmacy.) Something is strange here eg eating his lawyers' paperwork, and his demeanour early on. I think that could be down to guilt.

I did hear the dead cat DNA rumour because neighbours witnessed his back garden and fire pit being dug up.

The muddy/bloody witness does exist. I have seen all the witness names in an unredated PCA.

We will just have to wait till trial to see all the evidence. Is it likely he went into an identity parade for the witnesses? Do they still do those?

 

[Tresir]

Thanks @Olenna and @RoundPeg For the pasta.

I still fail to see any motive for Odinists/Asatruists to slaughter two white teenage girls.

 

[RoundPeg]

Thanks @Olenna and @RoundPeg For the pasta.

I still fail to see any motive for Odinists/Asatruists to slaughter two white teenage girls.

I was just addressing your remark there was nothing provided about Indiana.

I have no clue why white supremacists would slaughter white girls, either.

 

[Olenna]

Thanks @Olenna and @RoundPeg For the pasta.

I still fail to see any motive for Odinists/Asatruists to slaughter two white teenage girls.

I was just addressing your remark there was nothing provided about Indiana.

I have no clue why white supremacists would slaughter white girls, either.

Me either, can't see any motive to slaughter 2 teenage girls ... But ...

Why do they need motive?
Does RA need motive?

 

[Tresir]

Me either, can't see any motive to slaughter 2 teenage girls ... But ...

Why do they need motive?
Does RA need motive?

RA motive would be sexual (he took a souvenir allegedly) and he is unhinged. Eg his behaviour in jail eating papers and wasting away. LE could have voice analysis, they have him and his voice on camera and his vehicle on camera plus the witness times that he was seen.

I found the unredacted Search warrant and PCA plus other documents. Here's a link. It states he killed them while attempting to kidnap them.

WANE 15
https://www.wane.com › sitesPDF
Delphi Docs 2022


An individual by the name of Betsy Blair, was returning to the trails to finish her walk. Betsy. Blair is seen on video at Hoosier Harvestore on 300 North ...
88 pages·4 MB

 

[Olenna]

RA motive would be sexual (he took a souvenir allegedly) and he is unhinged. Eg his behaviour in jail eating papers and wasting away. LE could have voice analysis, they have him and his voice on camera and his vehicle on camera plus the witness times that he was seen.

I found the unredacted PCA. Here's a link.

WANE 15
https://www.wane.com › sitesPDF
Delphi Docs 2022


An individual by the name of Betsy Blair, was returning to the trails to finish her walk. Betsy. Blair is seen on video at Hoosier Harvestore on 300 North ...
88 pages·4 MB

Thanks @Tresir

 

[Olenna]

We will just have to wait till trial to see all the evidence. Is it likely he went into an identity parade for the witnesses? Do they still do those?

Good Question - nothing I've seen suggests that RA was picked out of lineups by eye-witnesses.
It makes sense that they'd do that.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

They do have his bullet at the scene though so maybe there are fingerprints or DNA on that, but it definitely came from his Sig Sauer weapon and noone else's.

As for lack of his DNA he was pretty much covered up but perhaps the girls DNA was found at belongings at his house eg on a souvenir.

They have his vehicle on the Hoosier store video too. They have recorded confessions from Westville which had nothing to do with cops from Carroll County.

I do suspect there is something weird in his medical records. Eg perhaps he is an alcoholic or addicted to something. (He works in a pharmacy.) Something is strange here eg eating his lawyers' paperwork, and his demeanour early on. I think that could be down to guilt.

I did hear the dead cat DNA rumour because neighbours witnessed his back garden and fire pit being dug up.

The muddy/bloody witness does exist. I have seen all the witness names in an unredated PCA.

We will just have to wait till trial to see all the evidence. Is it likely he went into an identity parade for the witnesses? Do they still do those?

BBM

It is not definitely from his sig sauer. That's a popular misconception. The markings found on the bullet aren't the same as matching bullets that have been fired. It's not a cinch match like a bullet. It's interesting, but not conclusive. I'm not aware of it being used in any other trial. Has it ever passed voire dire?

Maybe nothing was found at his house. We don't know.

His vehicle driving by the Hoosiers store is not evidence he killed anyone.

The muddy bloody witness might exist, but a name doesn't mean that. Has anyone talked to them, other than the cops? What the person said is in serious doubt. If he was in fact muddy and bloody, why can't they find any evidence of that in his car? It's been several years, but I've seen many documentaries on evidence. Blood seeps into tiny areas that aren't washed. If he in fact had been that muddy and bloody I'd think someone other than a passer by would have seen him.

He has a Blue Carhart Jacket, is it the same one from 2017?

If he was smart he would have sold that car after cleaning and bought another one.

Lack of his DNA

A crime scene that would be very hard for one person to do alone in the amount of time he had.

The Odinist theory is just as believable, at this time, of the theory he did it alone.

I am not accepting what the prosecution is saying without question. If he is being railroaded, he wouldn't be the first one in this country.

The lack of his DNA is a HUGE sticking point for me. Also, the theory he did it alone is hard to believe for me.

This is an article from when the Odinist theory came out. Here are a couple of interesting things:

Court docs reveal horrifying new claims in killing of 2 young girls in Delphi, Indiana

"Early on in the investigation, authorities consulted with a Purdue University professor concerning what resembled possible Odinism signatures left behind at the crime scene, the defense attorneys wrote. But that angle was "essentially abandoned" after the professor told law enforcement "it was not Odinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime," as stated in the filing.


According to the memorandum, as of Sept. 7, the investigators claim they can't identify who the purported professor is, have no reports from the purported professor and have indicated they may never be able to figure out who the person is."

Here is more about the mystery professor being identified and what he said:

MSN

The article is on an MSN connected website, so that's why the funny link, but works.

From the article:

According to our sister station at WTHR, Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett swore under oath on Aug. 8, 2023, that a professor at Purdue did not believe sticks on the bodies were Odinist symbols. The defense went on to say that Prosecutor Nick McLeland allegedly told the defense the prosecution was unable to identify the professor on Sept. 6, 2023.

Read the Delphi murders investigation timeline here

Allen’s attorneys then claimed that State Trooper Jerry Holeman said in the months after the girls’ murders that the professor, identified as Jeffrey Turco, told him it was, “not Odisinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime,” and officials abandoned the cult theory.

Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

The defense claims that the prosecution has sent countless hard drives, flash drives, and discs with hundreds of pages of paperwork between Sept. 8 and Sept. 27. It claims the interview with Turco was on a thumb drive delivered on Sep. 27, and was only marked with the professor’s name and not his title.


In the court documents, Allen’s attorneys claimed several people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early in the investigation without reason.

The defense claimed one of the people, allegedly cleared by investigators early in the investigation, had social media posts with imagery that matched what the defense claims were pagan symbols at the crime scene. Upon seeing the images, an Indiana State Police investigator allegedly requested another interview be done with the potential suspect, but Allen’s defense attorneys do not believe officials ever followed up.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

FBI agent believed clothing taken and bodies 'staged' in Delphi murders search warrant request

In citing reasons for the search warrant, an FBI agent said pieces of one of the victim's clothes were missing and that it appeared the girls' bodies were staged.

www.wthr.com

The title pretty much says what I've been believing. The FBI believes the bodies were staged.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The tattoo, the patches, the claims of "odinism" - are symbols for "I AM PROUD TO BE A FACIST WHITE NATIONALIST"
or ... "HITLER IS MY DADDY"

I don't think it's a small thing to parade that around on your face as a prison guard, considering the racial makeup of the prison population.
It's intentional, cruel, and ignorant, IMO.

I've lost patience with explanations suggesting this type of odinism display is = to paganism.
It's not.

True pagans should be livid to have their religion co-opted by what we all know to be skinheads (the 1990's version of this crap), the 1940's sons of Hitler and the 1890-1980's KKK variations.

JMHO

I've come close to losing patience with all of this based on nothing more for the most part than an intended blizzard effect to take the focus off what defense and defendant have done. Confess. Leak. More. One excuse and claim. Then another.

It will be good to move on from all of this. Too bad tomorrow will not end with a decision more than likely.

It is good we don't all have to agree because we clearly don't but it seems to me most do on certain things. That Allen did it. That the leak was intentional and planned. That he confessed. You may not but not all agree.

It's probably the most active case thread but in a way it is stuck until things proceed and are decided and mostly we all keep at the same things, you included. I spend days away from it to try to keep up which I barely can on other cases because mostly we are rehashing the same things, you included.

I care but I'm a bit bored with it and I don't even have time to keep up and be bored BUT what I mean is nothing is going to change until more is either proven or decided. For probably any of or most of us.

Hitler we know had people killed. The Klan we know killed people. There is not ONE shred of evidence any Delphi IN Odinist or any who supposedly are or claim to be from either Delphi or the surrounding areas ever sacrificed or killed anyone. That's the difference. That is a huge difference.

I am not into the comparison. Nor grouping such or grouping anyone. Some may be just playing with being such a thing or claiming they are (not murdering, just part of such a belief or group as that) and then many tie it to the things in prisons and what does that have to do with the ones named in the Franks motion living free and living lives? They aren't inmates.

There's a whole lot of tying sh*t together here which is what D wants. And those that fall right into it?

HITLER?? The KLAN?? Give me an example of ONE thing that the ones named OR the guards did or murders and sacrifices they are suspected for or arrested for.

That's really reaching. Imo.

But it is great we can all have differing opinions and still enjoy the debate. I do. But I do tire of it as we all, myself included, are pretty much where we are stuck at in opinions without further evidence and decisions.

It's my least favorite thread right now because of it.

And it's about the girls but the D and RA have made it all about them.

I have watched and seen from the start with them and I recall all of it. And like I keep repeating ad nauseum the reasons, the timing and what they have done as all has proceeded is a no brainer as to why.

I think I'll watch Tom Webster tomorrow. He knows as much or more about this case than most, kind of up there with the Murder Sheet although like many, have not always been aligned or okay with them. Tom has the feed and show up ready for notification and I find him different, unique and a bit refreshing with all this talked to death stuff that is all any of us have been able to do for the last how long.

As always, no offense intended. I enjoy debate. Until it gets to be where we all are just stuck on the same things as nothing changes or proceeds. I skipped a few posts already tonight as I could see it was just more whatever.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'm never really sure how many confessions they have. This has grown its own wings. My own feelings on the confessions differ from yours, though. I think, most likely, they will be admissible. We know there has never been a competency issue formally accepted by the court, let alone a hearing. Now what the jury believes when they hear them may be a different matter.

My whole issue is his pre trial treatment.

I heard five and not in SM gossip. I can't recall but it came from LE or an LE source on a retired LE show. Pretty sure. Those five confessions could have been three in one call to his wife and one to his defense and one to his mother, hard to say. Of course I am not going to say I can verify it but I tend to believe it from where I heard it.

I don't always recall where I heard something but I only accept it into my thoughts as likely fact if the source gives me reason to.

As I stated last night, I can understand your position on his being in a prison and his pretrial treatment. Where I differ is I don't see any proof or reason to or enough fact or reason to go there. I WILL change my opinion if I ever do.

The defense at this point has absolutely no credibility to me. Man if I had time and did not work, I'd do a timeline showing timing and their first claim, then changing claim and so much more.

Anyhow, I think hearing the confessions as you say or the jury hearing them will show a lot and I wish we could as I think it would help with context and more too.

Personally I think and speculate wife and possibly mom were on him for what this has done to their lives to tell THEM the truth and the phone calls and even prior ones may show that. They aren't going to support him without the truth, that kind of thing and his confessing if he did it and then making a deal or confessing and doing right to LE. And I think Old D could not have it when they found out. Of course that is MY speculation.

I don't care if they move him to county but I do truly believe it will be new issues, not better and more problems and that he is safer elsewhere. That is really and truly what I think. Can that change? Of course. For me I've just seen no reason to change my thought on that yet. I trust they didn't put him in county for a good reason and when I think of that I also think of the male judge who recused himself. I think there are reasons we don't know of.

 

[GrandmaBear]

The presumption that forum members should "disclose what side they're on" - even the idea that there's a requirement to take a side - is antithetical to robust discussion.

I tend to be analytic and curious and I'm comfortable remaining open-minded until I feel it is reasonable (or necessary) to take a position. Here on the Delphi forum, we're just watching early proceedings in a trial - not even yet at evidentiary hearing stage - haven't reached the poking about/challenging the presented facts stage to know if they are strong or weak or good or bad facts ... etc.. I'm not taking sides. Don't let it become a problem for you.

With regards to ANY Defense SODDI-Theory - it's all about developing the SODDI theory such that it's plausible and supports the D's reasonable doubt argument in the whole. The D's role is to raise reasonable Doubt in the jury's mind; I take the view that forum emotions and beliefs (and that of others who follow a case) as to who killed the girls - are irrelevant. Because we're not the jury.

This is Indiana; the jury of peers will bring their personal experiences to consideration of the "O-Theory" in rural Indiana. Jury members will have some understanding with regard to regional criminal gangs, ("brotherhoods?"), drug runners, and those devoted to white nationalism make ignorant use of Odinism symbolism. I don't know, but I tend to think it's a big factor here.

As to any "ridiculous"-ness about both the Old D and the new D's theories - this theory will be tested and facts sussed out at trial. That's not happened yet, and IMO presumptions about whether or not that theory has legs are premature.

With regard to the Old D and Gull's removal of them ... and who's right/wrong or guilty of something that's not acceptable zealous defense lawyering ... are on the docket tomorrow in Supreme Court.

As to the documented and tolerated existence of White Nationalist correction officers throughout the US prison ... I can offer source upon article upon fact. (It's pretty interesting, IMO). If interested, there's mountains of evidence and research to read about it. I've posted such article in this thread before. I just grabbed yet another 2 articles; below are recent investigative journalism articles from the WashPo and from PBS. (Used google search term: "white nationalism and correction officers") I realize you're not in the States and American persistent, rampant racism and fans of fascism in pockets throughout the US ... isn't necessarily something you'd be familiar with.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/white-supremacist-prison-guards-work-with-impunity-in-florida




https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/01/17/maryland-prison-lawsuit-white-gang-correctional-officers/








JMHO

Lol discussing a crime without saying you have a leaning one way or another to a side would be pretty dull imo and discussing the reasons for having such or even for swinging back and forth which some of us do. I've done it. I've seen emu do it and believe every side from one day to another. So we can't do that in a forum or it is a worthless discussion? And there's no robust discussion?

Imo there is no discussion then to speak of.

Are we the detectives, the court, the ISC and the rulers and players in the case? Of course not.

As busy as this thread is, it is dull in some ways as there is not much new and you stick to your stuff and come in with more and more of it, I stick to my opinion, Round Peg is only concerned about his pretrial treatment which is understandable and emu has changed throughout since Allen's arrest as to his opinion. Nothing wrong with any of that. Imo.

You say your open minded, analytical and don't take sides yet you compare a few men never placed or seen at Delphi and a couple of guards to the Klan and Hitler.

That's very much generalizing and judging.

I don't know. If you want discussion, I'd say you have it. I enjoy discussion and debate.

It isn't robust maybe as YOU are not on the inside nor are we and we don't know any more than we know.

At least tomorrow there will be new stuff for discussion. I bet right now though there will be no instant decision.

We all differ and by the way I don't consider the Washington Post nor PBS great news sources. They are agenda driven although who knows, maybe on White Nationalism, the Klan, the Os and Hitler, they are on the spot. Lol.

Anyhow, clearly we all differ and that leads to discussion BECAUSE we all do. I for one like that part.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Good grief. READ MY POST, it's 2 lines. Here, I'll quote myself:



IMO, Mcl wants those med reports b/c he'd like to know sooner (he's motioned the Court and been denied) - rather than during the evidentiary hearing - what facts will be useful to D and perhaps not so helpful to P as to the recorded confession.

I did READ YOUR POST dear. You said in your opinion and you were thinking, I think part of this disappeared since I read it at break today... Or I'm tired. There was part that said you were thinking... And another paragraph where the big gap is. You didn't quadruple space, you took out the part I was going to respond to. Lol.

 

[Olenna]

I've come close to losing patience with all of this based on nothing more for the most part than an intended blizzard effect to take the focus off what defense and defendant have done. Confess. Leak. More. One excuse and claim. Then another.

It will be good to move on from all of this. Too bad tomorrow will not end with a decision more than likely.

It is good we don't all have to agree because we clearly don't but it seems to me most do on certain things. That Allen did it. That the leak was intentional and planned. That he confessed. You may not but not all agree.

It's probably the most active case thread but in a way it is stuck until things proceed and are decided and mostly we all keep at the same things, you included. I spend days away from it to try to keep up which I barely can on other cases because mostly we are rehashing the same things, you included.

I care but I'm a bit bored with it and I don't even have time to keep up and be bored BUT what I mean is nothing is going to change until more is either proven or decided. For probably any of or most of us.

Hitler we know had people killed. The Klan we know killed people. There is not ONE shred of evidence any Delphi IN Odinist or any who supposedly are or claim to be from either Delphi or the surrounding areas ever sacrificed or killed anyone. That's the difference. That is a huge difference.

I am not into the comparison. Nor grouping such or grouping anyone. Some may be just playing with being such a thing or claiming they are (not murdering, just part of such a belief or group as that) and then many tie it to the things in prisons and what does that have to do with the ones named in the Franks motion living free and living lives? They aren't inmates.

There's a whole lot of tying sh*t together here which is what D wants. And those that fall right into it?

HITLER?? The KLAN?? Give me an example of ONE thing that the ones named OR the guards did or murders and sacrifices they are suspected for or arrested for.

That's really reaching. Imo.

But it is great we can all have differing opinions and still enjoy the debate. I do. But I do tire of it as we all, myself included, are pretty much where we are stuck at in opinions without further evidence and decisions.

It's my least favorite thread right now because of it.

And it's about the girls but the D and RA have made it all about them.

I have watched and seen from the start with them and I recall all of it. And like I keep repeating ad nauseum the reasons, the timing and what they have done as all has proceeded is a no brainer as to why.

I think I'll watch Tom Webster tomorrow. He knows as much or more about this case than most, kind of up there with the Murder Sheet although like many, have not always been aligned or okay with them. Tom has the feed and show up ready for notification and I find him different, unique and a bit refreshing with all this talked to death stuff that is all any of us have been able to do for the last how long.

As always, no offense intended. I enjoy debate. Until it gets to be where we all are just stuck on the same things as nothing changes or proceeds. I skipped a few posts already tonight as I could see it was just more whatever.

It's okay to take a break!!! It's good to take a break!!
I do!!!
I've also watched Tom Webster!! I like him; he leans prosecution, but he's honest about it.
Everybody: Be well!!

 

[GrandmaBear]

Ok so you don't have any actual evidence that the two Westville Odinist guards are KKK or Hitler lovers and drugged the inmate in order to get him to confess.

In fact you don't even have any examples from Indiana, just Maryland and Florida.

That's what I thought.

Much like the Old D's SODDI defence, who have no actual sightings of their chosen Odinists on the trails that day at all, or any physical evidence they were there either.

I just addressed this myself. More than once I think. Not sure, I'm tired.

I said similar about some guys they named that can't be put at the site and two guards they can't place there nor connect to the named gusy in the communities. And as far as Hitler and the KKK talk about generalizing and we KNOW murders occurred related to both. We know NO SUCH thing about the ones named in the memo nor about the guards. Talk about a leap and generalizing.

You and I as we know by far don't always agree but imo you are seeing this one for exactly what it is and making very good points Tresir.

I'll be watching tomorrow. I have as always a lot of things to take care of but am going to watch this regardless. I have the next two days off and only hope I can take care of what I need to on Friday or at least put out the fires.

Let's all who can even though watching come in and comment shall we? During?

 

[GrandmaBear]

I haven't heard that RA has revoked his confessions, has anyone else got any info on that yet?

No. However under Old D's control he'd probably agree to that if they told him to.

 

[GrandmaBear]

take 2 motions to transfer and 1 Franks memo plus dash of exhibits some shadow of doubt by a local jury and then shake in a logic mixer.

Lol you know I am going to disagree with this one don't ya?

A logic mixer. Throw in some common sense and no way.

That Franks memo is ridiculous and full of even stupid footnotes that this did not really happen kind of remark but we are just saying what if... RA never said so... Etc.

As far as a local jury, I would about bet locals know this O stuff isn't huge Hitler type of stuff and it's just "local guys" being whatever versus the ridiculous thoughts and conspiracies some in our nation have made of it.

They CANNOT take Allen away from being there and they CANNOT place an O there.

A logic shaker? I think it would land the other way than what you think unless someone thinks THAT way and falls for such.

I want to reiterate, all just discussion and I disagree. Nothing meant as a personal affront in any way.

Love debate.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I want justice for these two girls and their families. Not a bunch of smoke and mirrors. We know what hard evidence the prosecution has but the defence have just been making it up as they go along and I am disappointed that he may not even get a robust defence from these clowns.

Well said. If Allen gets Old D I agree with lawyers who say he needs to sign something agreeing to no appeals as to ineffective counsel, etc.

I don't know if I've ever though less of defense attorneys or any and believe me, I have some pretty poor opinions of more than a few but these take the cake.

 

[Olenna]

They do have his bullet at the scene though so maybe there are fingerprints or DNA on that, but it definitely came from his Sig Sauer weapon and noone else's.

As for lack of his DNA he was pretty much covered up but perhaps the girls DNA was found at belongings at his house eg on a souvenir.

They have his vehicle on the Hoosier store video too. They have recorded confessions from Westville which had nothing to do with cops from Carroll County.

I do suspect there is something weird in his medical records. Eg perhaps he is an alcoholic or addicted to something. (He works in a pharmacy.) Something is strange here eg eating his lawyers' paperwork, and his demeanour early on. I think that could be down to guilt.

I did hear the dead cat DNA rumour because neighbours witnessed his back garden and fire pit being dug up.

The muddy/bloody witness does exist. I have seen all the witness names in an unredated PCA.

We will just have to wait till trial to see all the evidence. Is it likely he went into an identity parade for the witnesses? Do they still do those?

nice explanation of what's in your logic shaker!
Thank you!

 

[GrandmaBear]

interesting.

True that the D and the P are NOT held to the same standards of PROVING a case.
However any Evidence from D or P and their experts ARE held to same standards - ostensibly by a fair and unbiased Judge.
My thinking - in this case - we're still waiting on evidence from both sides at this point and smoke/mirrors won't be admissible.

IMO, both sets of D like the O-Theory and both sets of D are experienced, well-respected criminal attorneys with more than 40 years experience on each team more than capable of bringing a robust defense. One slight concern I had was whether Gull's home-town D-team would capitulate to Gull's preferences ... but with their first motion, that worry (for me) has evaporated.

Judge is there to call balls and strikes throughout the arguments ... Judge is not there to take out one team entirely (especially not at the behest of the other team) ... because she objects to their flashy verbose style.

We'll see tomorrow, and as a good sport, today is "Make the Hat You Can Eat tomorrow if necessary Day"

Smoke and mirrors sure dominated the public though didn't it, for how long? Intentionally imo for that very reason.

Any of us could be wrong and have to eat our hat and I'm willing to WITH evidence. Yes, you were all about new D appointing her buddies and how unfair and corrupt but just look now. I give you credit for admitting to being very off base it seems on that one.

I do the same. WITH real proof and evidence, I will change an opinion, not with smoke and mirrors.

By the way Gull did decide for defense at times, like with the med records. That's never mentioned by you when she has.

I don't know that tomorrow will be eat your hat day. We will hear arguments I think more than see evidence and I don't think we will see a decision tomorrow. Do you? They will expedite it and decide and announce right away on an exigency basis? I don't.