LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Tresir]

There's a good reminder question at the end of Tom's show someone mentioned and taht's how Kathy Allen has nothing on her FB from like December of 2016 to June of 2017. I find that very interesting when reminded of it. Weight, hair, dress, voice, things she was commenting on on which days as to what was going on in life, I mean WHY/ Most would take ALL DOWN....

I'll make a bet--I bet she also didn't get on there and share that her hub confessed to her.

@Tresir You now how Tom does different backdrops well his backdrop in this show is St. Michael's Mount, Cornwall UK!

I noticed the UK backdrop. Lake Tahoe was the previous one right?

So you think she knew? I bet she has deleted those posts. No way did she not post on FB for six months. Or they were taken as evidence.

 

[Tresir]

Reading further now. I see you found it. Well no, you didn't as now I see this refers to the days after. This was talking April to June BUT again who was interviewing by then and this was two months after by then. Also it is what defense claims, haven't seen a response yet. If even true, maybe they had like two or something. Who knows with the way facts are skirted and omitted in defense filings.

I thought that room wasn't used after the first week as the investigating team moved somewhere else. If we think about it, that's why the machine carried on recording for days until it was discovered.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I noticed the UK backdrop. Lake Tahoe was the previous one right?

So you think she knew? I bet she has deleted those posts. No way did she not post on FB for six months. Or they were taken as evidence.

I don't know. It would depend on when she deleted them but I can think of a number of things they might show and I think they likely show something. It sure isn't something you'd worry about if convinced your guy is innocent imo. And most people take down their entire FB, not a selected period of it...

 

[GrandmaBear]

I thought that room wasn't used after the first week as the investigating team moved somewhere else. If we think about it, that's why the machine carried on recording for days until it was discovered.

That's kind of what I'm saying, it's the defense so one knows it isn't as big as made out and they are leaving something out like there were NO or FEW interviews where they are talking at that point in time or something. It's never the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth. Ever. Haven't seen it yet so no reason to buy it now.

 

[Tresir]

I gave Grizz maybe ten minutes before I saw she, after falling silent like most forever, now with new fodder was going beyond again as was her chat. It was ridiciulous. INot even sure I made it that long. I don't do DD either. Gave them a couple of shots and I don't like them, him particularly.

I'm watching Tom, unsure if I will get through all tonight. He asked why when defense is asking for parity and pay for their helpers, they failed to mention or ask for pay for MW lol. Seriously though same had already crossed my mind and why didn't they?

I'll stick with the most level headed least biased one.

I''m not far in yet, he is more covering the filings and such thus far and not discussing yet.

I have the gist of the day as to what's was handled and where it stands, did that on break.

I read Tresir's articlle about the scuffle.

Here's what I took from that and from the Youtube guy who hugged mom, etc. and that is that Rick's mom and wife are apparently still supporting him after he confessed to them. I assume this as I doubt they are there to see him hanged. I'll be nice and not give my opinion of the two of them if supporting him. It wouldn't be a milk toast one or reserved if I did.

Going back to Tom. Will wait and see how all shakes out but nothing about this is going to get any better, that's entirely obvious but then who ever thought otherwise...

I find a few statements in things filed pretty stupid again already. I'll wait though. And they circle their real issues. The bullet, the confessions and so on. Just ask your client why don't you? Or by what he told doctors and any mental health evaluator and so on.

Something else I'm not sure I know that I've already heard with only a few minutes with Tom it was the defense's two helpers that went to the prison the day he confessed and gave him docs/evidence or whatever, it was not B & R... Neither or not either... Perhaps I did, can't recall. Not surprised though.

One thing remains very clear and obvious to me (imo) and that's that there's something we don't know or more than one thing that they need gone. I've thought so all the way back to the FM where the intent is to get the search warrant eliminated and all that came from it. I see it now in just having heard a few filings, not all of which are even anything about such...

Everything, all they've been doing, ever leak, the FM, the ISC, everything is imo with one intent and that's to derail it all.... I could go into that alone in detail but won't.

Speedy trial is another move of course when they needed to do something but I don't think for one minute they are ready for it IF they can't derail it and IF what should be allowed in is allowed in.

I also don't believe for a minute they believe RA innocent. And I think they are the ones trying to cover their failure to their client, he confessed due to them imo and then they coudln't have that.

Anyhow, back to Tom. I'll wait on the rest until I hear him.

Oh he also asks if defense has even deposedor interviewed the Os themselves or the professor yet. Anyone know? THey go on about all but have they actually talked to them?

I haven't heard that they have interviewed them. I would imagine they are pretty mad they have been accused of the murders though. I don't think the defense would have any powers to interview them, would they? I think they would be told to have sex and travel.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I haven't heard that they have interviewed them. I would imagine they are pretty mad they have been accused of the murders though. I don't think the defense would have any powers to interview them, would they? I think they would be told to have sex and travel.

At first I thought when I read this, of course defense can depose or interview them but then it hit me yeah, they are not parties and so forth, nor are they prosecution called witnesses and so on. And yeah, the bunch isn't probably going to volunteer to talk to the defense after what they did to them. I suppose it would take supboenaes and I'm not sure if a juge would have to sign off on them or not... I had several subpoenaed served once several years ago (not my personal case but someone close) and it was a family case BUT no judge needed. The lawyer representing "our" side drafted them, the Clerk had to stamp them, or whatever and then I had my boss at the time serve them as it was something the office I worked at did on occasion. We totally blindsided the other side at the last minute which is neither here nor there but I am positive we needed no judge's approval or signature, just has to state what the records were needed for. They were financial and we didn't even need to know who, so we hit every bank in the person's county and route to work requesting if they had an account and to provide the records and we hit pay dirt.

I also was called once to be deposed by defense, maybe a better example, before a trial, and then was called to trial as well, I am pretty sure by a subpoena with each. It was for a gf's major injury case. I did NOT want to help or talk to the defense but I went, and went up on the stand at trial too.. They took this one all the way, she had a major one and never settled. IT MAY have been prosecution I was there for on that one, not sure. Either way defense deposed me and imo got nothing helpful from me for their side because the facts weren't on it and I told the truth. So an educated guess is IF prosecution or LE has interviewed someone in relation to this case, then defense would have the right to subpoenae them and do the same? As I think that's what happened to me... I was no party to the action of any kind but I was a witness to events that happened the night of my gf's accident.

I'm kind of recalling some old things and remembering and talking through this so yes, I think they'd have the right to subpoena for deposition AND for triial. The same with the professor who Tom queried too with all their claims of what he thinks (which professor says is mistaken) have they even talked to him themselves yet?

 

[Tresir]

At first I thought when I read this, of course defense can depose or interview them but then it hit me yeah, they are not parties and so forth, nor are they prosecution called witnesses and so on. And yeah, the bunch isn't probably going to volunteer to talk to the defense after what they did to them. I suppose it would take supboenaes and I'm not sure if a juge would have to sign off on them or not... I had several subpoenaed served once several years ago (not my personal case but someone close) and it was a family case BUT no judge needed. The lawyer representing "our" side drafted them, the Clerk had to stamp them, or whatever and then I had my boss at the time serve them as it was something the office I worked at did on occasion. We totally blindsided the other side at the last minute which is neither here nor there but I am positive we needed no judge's approval or signature, just has to state what the records were needed for. They were financial and we didn't even need to know who, so we hit every bank in the person's county and route to work requesting if they had an account and to provide the records and we hit pay dirt.

I also was called once to be deposed by defense, maybe a better example, before a trial, and then was called to trial as well, I am pretty sure by a subpoena with each. It was for a gf's major injury case. I did NOT want to help or talk to the defense but I went, and went up on the stand at trial too.. They took this one all the way, she had a major one and never settled. IT MAY have been prosecution I was there for on that one, not sure. Either way defense deposed me and imo got nothing helpful from me for their side because the facts weren't on it and I told the truth. So an educated guess is IF prosecution or LE has interviewed someone in relation to this case, then defense would have the right to subpoenae them and do the same? As I think that's what happened to me... I was no party to the action of any kind but I was a witness to events that happened the night of my gf's accident.

I'm kind of recalling some old things and remembering and talking through this so yes, I think they'd have the right to subpoena for deposition AND for triial. The same with the professor who Tom queried too with all their claims of what he thinks (which professor says is mistaken) have they even talked to him themselves yet?

The Professor guy said that Odinists don't sacrifice and BH, PW et al are not going to admit in court that they did it are they? They don't even have their phones at the scene as there are only 3 phones in the area over a 3 hour period, not 4 or 5 phones there at 2.15 pm. I cannot see how the D can bring up there alternate theory with no evidence.

 

[Tresir]

I don't know. It would depend on when she deleted them but I can think of a number of things they might show and I think they likely show something. It sure isn't something you'd worry about if convinced your guy is innocent imo. And most people take down their entire FB, not a selected period of it...

That's why I think LE may have taken that whole six month period.

 

[Tresir]

Law and Crime interview Joe and Bob about the recent day in court, the "lost" interviews, the bullet, the geofence data....

19 minutes long.

 

[RoundPeg]

03/20/2024

Order Issued On March 15, 2024, the Court entered a Courthouse Management and Decorum Order for Hearing March 18, 2024, at 9:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. The final paragraph of the Order states, "Any violation of this Order and any conduct the Court finds disruptive of the proceedings is punishable as direct contempt of Court and will result in a term of imprisonment and permanent exclusion from the Courtroom, the Courthouse, and all future proceedings." Paragraph 5 of the Order states, in part, "members of the public are ordered to conduct themselves in such a fashion as to limit disruption to the offices, personnel, and patrons of those offices." The Court recessed the morning hearing at approximately noon. The Court observed a member of the gallery, later identified as Richard Snay, becoming animated and somewhat vocal with Courtroom Security, who admonished him to sit down. At approximately 12:10 p.m., Court Security observed Snay and David Noe engaged in conversation on the first floor, that ultimately became heated. Court Security advised them to be civil and leave the building. Court Security removed both participants from the building and observed a verbal altercation between them on the sidewalk and surrounding areas of the Courthouse. The Court finds the conduct of Richard Snay and David Noe to be in direct violation of Paragraph 5 of the Decorum Order, and therefore, permanently excludes Richard Snay and David Noe from all future proceedings in this cause. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/20/2024

 

[GrandmaBear]

The Professor guy said that Odinists don't sacrifice and BH, PW et al are not going to admit in court that they did it are they? They don't even have their phones at the scene as there are only 3 phones in the area over a 3 hour period, not 4 or 5 phones there at 2.15 pm. I cannot see how the D can bring up there alternate theory with no evidence.

Yeah he said that but defense quotes him with things he does not think yet as Tom wondered, have they even interviewed/deposed him after yelling about it lol? Probably not as they know when he would say but then we wouldn't necessarily know. I kind of doubt it.

There weren't any Os there as we know. They can't place them and even if they could, they can't remove Allen. It's such b.s. and this is what things have gotten to where sh*t that doesn't matter defense yells for but they like Prior in Daybell don't test, it, talk to the person, do anything with it, etc. anyhow when they get it. It's ridiculous and gone too far and it's nothing but smoke.

I've seen your phone texts and as you know don['t faithfully come to this thread and hadn't had time so unsure of where that comes from or what you are questioning but the gist I've seen I don't think it's a big deal. I think I responded to one a few days back but am not up on it to now enough to say anything for sure.

I think I recall talk of why Kelsey's or dad's, etc. don't show? Do I have that right? Aren't they just talking of unknown ones and a certain time frame?

Again, I'm not up on it enough.

It doesn't worry me thoughf from what I have read. I think again we are hearing selective intended things and not the rest of what is known.

Yeah these days howi D can bring up anything but imaginary placement of people no one saw and who weren't there is really where it is shown what is allowed has gone too far. I dont' know that it was allowed, they just did so and made sure it was publicly seen and made a big splash and even involved outright accusing people.

What's even more scary is how many don't see that and have went down the road of anything is okay or should be without limitation.

 

[GrandmaBear]

That's why I think LE may have taken that whole six month period.

Yeah, I think there's a LOT we don't know. TONS. Prosecution stays zip lipped even when they'd probably love to blow defense out of water with facts. They act responsibly. I almost wish they'd share a few things to blow them up but I don't want the case compromised by far more so.

LE most definitely I imagine has that stuff from supportive wife of confessing murderer's FB but it doesn't mean they deleted it. She likely deleted it but when...? And what did it contain? This was Valentine's basically. What did she post about this time frame? Did he bring her roses and take her out to a nice dinner or was he busy.... So much could be in it. Was she away like CB's wife...? Are there tons of family videos with his voice... And his facial appearance, beard, weight and such at that time....? So many things that are possible, I could go on and on with possibilities...!

Here: Totally made up by me but going by the types of posts we know of of hers, what could be there WITHOUT he knowing a thing at that point....

"Daughter had day off school and I was off so she and I went to the big city shopping. Boyi did we find the deals. Rick said he was going to get a project done and then maybe going to go take a walk at the trails and enjoy the nice day. We got home late and lo and behold he was doing laundry! My man might learn yet! I was impressed. And he had DINNER in the works! He seemed stressed out and not really focusing probably because he learned how trying to multitask those household chores can do that!"

Lol, yes what do those months of days and THE day hold that was on her FB....

"Silly men I don't get it. He knew I had just washed his jacket but he was washing that too..."

Of major interest imo is she took down the months before the murder...

I used to do FB and had taken hiatuses from it here and there just as I have here when life and time, etc. made it necessary. That isn't what this is here though. This is an intentional deletion of the exact time period. And not of all.

One thing Plunder does that is so smart is the minute a case breaks she sees or takes an interest in, she finds what she can on SM and goes in and takes pictures of posts and such on the people's pages before they disappear or the people can know to delete or get to it and before things blow up. Of course this case was back when and it depends on which case you become aware of and when you learned to start doing this. Average people who do such or go look at their FBs should do the same.

Of course hopefully LE has ALL OF IT. I doubt there is anything like "My husband killed two girls!" on her FB pages but there is stuff or videos or info that she KNOWS would incriminate and not help. Even of his appearance...

 

[Tresir]

03/20/2024

Order Issued On March 15, 2024, the Court entered a Courthouse Management and Decorum Order for Hearing March 18, 2024, at 9:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. The final paragraph of the Order states, "Any violation of this Order and any conduct the Court finds disruptive of the proceedings is punishable as direct contempt of Court and will result in a term of imprisonment and permanent exclusion from the Courtroom, the Courthouse, and all future proceedings." Paragraph 5 of the Order states, in part, "members of the public are ordered to conduct themselves in such a fashion as to limit disruption to the offices, personnel, and patrons of those offices." The Court recessed the morning hearing at approximately noon. The Court observed a member of the gallery, later identified as Richard Snay, becoming animated and somewhat vocal with Courtroom Security, who admonished him to sit down. At approximately 12:10 p.m., Court Security observed Snay and David Noe engaged in conversation on the first floor, that ultimately became heated. Court Security advised them to be civil and leave the building. Court Security removed both participants from the building and observed a verbal altercation between them on the sidewalk and surrounding areas of the Courthouse. The Court finds the conduct of Richard Snay and David Noe to be in direct violation of Paragraph 5 of the Decorum Order, and therefore, permanently excludes Richard Snay and David Noe from all future proceedings in this cause. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 03/20/2024

Good job. Isn't RS one of the leak guys? Presumably this will mean they cannot attend the whole of the case in Carroll County, right?

 

[Tresir]

Yeah he said that but defense quotes him with things he does not think yet as Tom wondered, have they even interviewed/deposed him after yelling about it lol? Probably not as they know when he would say but then we wouldn't necessarily know. I kind of doubt it.

There weren't any Os there as we know. They can't place them and even if they could, they can't remove Allen. It's such b.s. and this is what things have gotten to where sh*t that doesn't matter defense yells for but they like Prior in Daybell don't test, it, talk to the person, do anything with it, etc. anyhow when they get it. It's ridiculous and gone too far and it's nothing but smoke.

I've seen your phone texts and as you know don['t faithfully come to this thread and hadn't had time so unsure of where that comes from or what you are questioning but the gist I've seen I don't think it's a big deal. I think I responded to one a few days back but am not up on it to now enough to say anything for sure.

I think I recall talk of why Kelsey's or dad's, etc. don't show? Do I have that right? Aren't they just talking of unknown ones and a certain time frame?

Again, I'm not up on it enough.

It doesn't worry me thoughf from what I have read. I think again we are hearing selective intended things and not the rest of what is known.

Yeah these days howi D can bring up anything but imaginary placement of people no one saw and who weren't there is really where it is shown what is allowed has gone too far. I dont' know that it was allowed, they just did so and made sure it was publicly seen and made a big splash and even involved outright accusing people.

What's even more scary is how many don't see that and have went down the road of anything is okay or should be without limitation.

Bringing forward the Reddit map again. Note the yellow trail lines.



Libby and Kelseys Dad's phone was shown on that map as two yellow lines. He did not arrive until after 3 PM and did not go anywhere near the crime scene. He walked the wrong way first, saw FSG then turned back and only walked as far as the start of the bridge then went back to the Mead parking area to meet up with his sister. Apart from Libby and Abbey and RA, there were really relatively few people on the trails. Just the three girls, (who were leaving as RA arrived) and the one female witness who saw RA on the bridge and then saw Libby and Abbey who she passed on their way to the bridge.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Bringing forward the Reddit map again. Note the yellow trail lines.



Libby and Kelseys Dad's phone was shown on that map as two yellow lines. He did not arrive until after 3 PM and did not go anywhere near the crime scene. He walked the wrong way first, saw FSG then turned back and only walked as far as the start of the bridge then went back to the Mead parking area to meet up with his sister. Apart from Libby and Abbey and RA, there were really relatively few people on the trails. Just the three girls, (who were leaving as RA arrived) and the one female witness who saw RA on the bridge and then saw Libby and Abbey who she passed on their way to the bridge.

Sorry I'm at a loss as to what the map means. Probably because I haven't followed along well or much with the phone thing. Appreciate your attempt but I'm looking at something Greek to me lol or am just so darned overdone and tired as always.

with the little bit I do know or understand I'm not worried about the phone thing and think it more smoke or will be satisfactorily answered. Id probably have to look at where this started with what was said to follow and don't have it in me right now. as always too, i've spent too much time online this morn with the Soto press conference (total dud) and more.

You'll get to the bottom of the phone thing, I'm sure lol. You have it in you to dig. I lost mine some time back and following isn't always that great with some either, depending on what it is.

I was just saying in another thread I am no tech or phone person lol and freely admit it.

 

[Tresir]

Sorry I'm at a loss as to what the map means. Probably because I haven't followed along well or much with the phone thing. Appreciate your attempt but I'm looking at something Greek to me lol or am just so darned overdone and tired as always.

with the little bit I do know or understand I'm not worried about the phone thing and think it more smoke or will be satisfactorily answered. Id probably have to look at where this started with what was said to follow and don't have it in me right now. as always too, i've spent too much time online this morn with the Soto press conference (total dud) and more.

You'll get to the bottom of the phone thing, I'm sure lol. You have it in you to dig. I lost mine some time back and following isn't always that great with some either, depending on what it is.

I was just saying in another thread I am no tech or phone person lol and freely admit it.

Think of it as a map of movements of people rather than their phones. The yellow lines on the map is where DG walked when he arrived to pick up the girls. The red circle is a 100 yard circle around the crime scene. The cemetery is shown on there and the two nearest neighbours, one of which is RL. In that red circle apparently there were only 3 phones.
One of those phone would be Libby's. Who did the other two phones belong to? RA ? Who else ?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Think of it as a map of movements of people rather than their phones. The yellow lines on the map is where DG walked when he arrived to pick up the girls. The red circle is a 100 yard circle around the crime scene. The cemetery is shown on there and the two nearest neighbours, one of which is RL. In that red circle apparently there were only 3 phones.
One of those phone would be Libby's. Who did the other two phones belong to? RA ? Who else ?

Now that is clarification. I thought I'd read in skimming posts this week or maybe it was that famiily's phones did not show, ex. Dad, grandparents, Kelsey. That threw me off.

Well if one is not RA''s then he lied or tossed his phone before the circle about the stock ticker thing. That would be incriminating in and of itself. So there could be one or two. aRe you sure they haven't already identified Libby's and RA's for lack of a better way to put it and these are there remaining unknown phones? I'm not up on or don't recall what this stems from or what was said.

ASSUMING T:HEY have and there is only one unknown phone or two if RA lied and the number is not known of the phone he had, isn't that the claim, that these aren't known? Like I said I followed somewhat but really was not up on the phone thing nor went into he links.

So let's just say if it isn't unknown phones (since I don't know, did not follow?) they are Libby's and RA's? That leaves one is that what you are saying? Or are none of the three confirmed or defense claims such? Where knowing them the answers were provided and are known....

I truly am not up on this. So if only a third phone in the circle is a question then that could be a phone Abby had that we don't know about, a burner phone of RA's, a phone of someone like KK.

I didn't pick up this week the rare time I skimmed where it was only three and in this circle. Maybe I started out seeing what you at first too were not sure of and then you dialed in and I didn't see that.

I freely admit I'm a bit clueless on this topic as I said.

Your explanation though as to the map cleared that all up. So the phones were in the circle around the bodies? And it is narrowed to three? It isn't three additional beyond the likely or obvious expected ones? One could well be RA's and one Libby's (and defense sure wont put it that way) so there may be only one?

I probably saw the beginning of what you wondered and not what you came to determine. I don't do this thread full on, gave up long ago although at least some things aren't still being gone on about.

Many agree on some things and not on others or it was that way. And that's okay. Until things are put out as fact and no imo or speculation that aren't. Jmo. There ya go.

For instance I never exclude generally 100 percent and I hadn't 100 percent excluded RL except NOT as BG. I came to though and I wonder why he is low on my radar any longer as being involved in any way. Others were there first excluding him before I and saying let the man RIP. I can entertain anything reasonable and possible but not far fetched-- but in the very surety he was involved lint these last months and what we know now led me to the reasons I saw that he was likely not. So the very effort convinced me otherwise. Or pretty close anyhow. I never ever go 100.

Never have I believed here he was BG. I entertained it back in the day and others as well. Every person even JT thread came up with by people that could be, this case has been something else. I compared looks , I compared voices, I think anyone who has followed from early on has.

BUT NEVER HAVE I SAID that's dead ringer for a voice until one on RA that I SHOULD HAVE SAVED or find and share again. I said it in this thread but have no clue how to seacha and find.

Anyhow definitely a heated one with varying opinions and some falling for or to be nice saying they see the truth of what defense says, etc. while prosecution stays silent as they do in most cases and abide by not compromsing the investigation. I can't imagine how much the human side wants to throw back and show the public. Defense takes advantage of that and most prosecutions don't engage or fall into it. I agree and disagree with that.

Anyhow, I am sidetracking or going on in rare time to catch up with any cases. Although I do manage. Saw the Carlee Russell thing for instance. SAw most of Harmony's justice even though I had to watch the trial after a long day or before because it was thankfully recorded.

Anyhow, back to the initial thing. You explained the map to where I understand so now is it know that the three phones in the circle are or aren't RA's, Libby's and so? Or not known and these are three extra phones?Again I admit to not being up on it.

Thanks for the clarification though. It did tell me why I did not get about the map before you explained.

 

[Tresir]

Now that is clarification. I thought I'd read in skimming posts this week or maybe it was that famiily's phones did not show, ex. Dad, grandparents, Kelsey. That threw me off.

Well if one is not RA''s then he lied or tossed his phone before the circle about the stock ticker thing. That would be incriminating in and of itself. So there could be one or two. aRe you sure they haven't already identified Libby's and RA's for lack of a better way to put it and these are there remaining unknown phones? I'm not up on or don't recall what this stems from or what was said.

ASSUMING T:HEY have and there is only one unknown phone or two if RA lied and the number is not known of the phone he had, isn't that the claim, that these aren't known? Like I said I followed somewhat but really was not up on the phone thing nor went into he links.

So let's just say if it isn't unknown phones (since I don't know, did not follow?) they are Libby's and RA's? That leaves one is that what you are saying? Or are none of the three confirmed or defense claims such? Where knowing them the answers were provided and are known....

I truly am not up on this. So if only a third phone in the circle is a question then that could be a phone Abby had that we don't know about, a burner phone of RA's, a phone of someone like KK.

I didn't pick up this week the rare time I skimmed where it was only three and in this circle. Maybe I started out seeing what you at first too were not sure of and then you dialed in and I didn't see that.

I freely admit I'm a bit clueless on this topic as I said.

Your explanation though as to the map cleared that all up. So the phones were in the circle around the bodies? And it is narrowed to three? It isn't three additional beyond the likely or obvious expected ones? One could well be RA's and one Libby's (and defense sure wont put it that way) so there may be only one?

I probably saw the beginning of what you wondered and not what you came to determine. I don't do this thread full on, gave up long ago although at least some things aren't still being gone on about.

Many agree on some things and not on others or it was that way. And that's okay. Until things are put out as fact and no imo or speculation that aren't. Jmo. There ya go.

For instance I never exclude generally 100 percent and I hadn't 100 percent excluded RL except NOT as BG. I came to though and I wonder why he is low on my radar any longer as being involved in any way. Others were there first excluding him before I and saying let the man RIP. I can entertain anything reasonable and possible but not far fetched-- but in the very surety he was involved lint these last months and what we know now led me to the reasons I saw that he was likely not. So the very effort convinced me otherwise. Or pretty close anyhow. I never ever go 100.

Never have I believed here he was BG. I entertained it back in the day and others as well. Every person even JT thread came up with by people that could be, this case has been something else. I compared looks , I compared voices, I think anyone who has followed from early on has.

BUT NEVER HAVE I SAID that's dead ringer for a voice until one on RA that I SHOULD HAVE SAVED or find and share again. I said it in this thread but have no clue how to seacha and find.

Anyhow definitely a heated one with varying opinions and some falling for or to be nice saying they see the truth of what defense says, etc. while prosecution stays silent as they do in most cases and abide by not compromsing the investigation. I can't imagine how much the human side wants to throw back and show the public. Defense takes advantage of that and most prosecutions don't engage or fall into it. I agree and disagree with that.

Anyhow, I am sidetracking or going on in rare time to catch up with any cases. Although I do manage. Saw the Carlee Russell thing for instance. SAw most of Harmony's justice even though I had to watch the trial after a long day or before because it was thankfully recorded.

Anyhow, back to the initial thing. You explained the map to where I understand so now is it know that the three phones in the circle are or aren't RA's, Libby's and so? Or not known and these are three extra phones?Again I admit to not being up on it.

Thanks for the clarification though. It did tell me why I did not get about the map before you explained.

I think they have identified them but aren't saying. 3 phones could be Libby, RA, and RL for example.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think they have identified them but aren't saying. 3 phones could be Libby, RA, and RL for example.

I've got too many cases and videos and info in cases crammed in right now to think clearly but the defense made a deal of this right? That's how the subject came up? I watched Tom's video only days ago and already forget a lot and have two other cases and a lot of their info swirling in my head. I stuffed in quite a bit on them yesterday.

If so, yes, I'd assume prosecution knows and defense is just doing their usual. If I am recalling this right and that's the deal?

Two phones are easily Libby's and RA's if RA is telling the truth about having a phone with. Even seven years ago was any perp so dumb as to take their phone withi to a murder though? Other than his stock ticker remark, we wouldn't necessarily think or know he had one with (if true0.

I am taking you to mean then these are three phones which include Libby's and possibly RA's and not three OTHER phones besides theirs? For some reason I thought I first took either your posts or maybe what the defense said as they were unknown phones and so I took that initially as OTHER phones than theirs. I.e, we are talking three total, not five or six?

Sorry, just trying to get it straight in my head and as I said I didn't follow the phone stuff and kind of skipped it at first and didn't know if I'd get back to it.

So in that case, yes, one has to be Libby's. Can you remind me of the time this is, is it a set period/range of time? One presumably is RA's. So it certainly does not align with some group of Odinists. RL I guess is possible as is an accomplice IF there was one, like KK. It isn't likely but maybe is possible the girls had another one, just a thought, that RA took... I'm not leaning here BUT considerin what they were doing online, the fact Abby hid some things from her mom and apparently LIbby was doing the same with talking to the AS profile and such, they or one could have had what we hear of with teens, another phone. Again, just a thought.

I think there are things the prosecution has that RA and the defense are worried about. The fact they can say anything and omit other facts while prosecutions largely have to (wisely for the most part but) stay silent I think is a really imperfect part of the system. It is defenses that whine about pretrial publicity and influeneced jury pools yet in almost every case they are the ones trying to sway the public via news, and in this case, leaks while the prosecutions stay silent.

I guess there's the slimmest possibility someone lost or dropped a phone in recent days.

I'm not seeing anything to alarm in this and like you said, they likely know.

Am I following things correctly, I certainly may not be. Let me know if not.

 

[Tresir]

Now that is clarification. I thought I'd read in skimming posts this week or maybe it was that famiily's phones did not show, ex. Dad, grandparents, Kelsey. That threw me off.

Well if one is not RA''s then he lied or tossed his phone before the circle about the stock ticker thing. That would be incriminating in and of itself. So there could be one or two. aRe you sure they haven't already identified Libby's and RA's for lack of a better way to put it and these are there remaining unknown phones? I'm not up on or don't recall what this stems from or what was said.

ASSUMING T:HEY have and there is only one unknown phone or two if RA lied and the number is not known of the phone he had, isn't that the claim, that these aren't known? Like I said I followed somewhat but really was not up on the phone thing nor went into he links.

So let's just say if it isn't unknown phones (since I don't know, did not follow?) they are Libby's and RA's? That leaves one is that what you are saying? Or are none of the three confirmed or defense claims such? Where knowing them the answers were provided and are known....

I truly am not up on this. So if only a third phone in the circle is a question then that could be a phone Abby had that we don't know about, a burner phone of RA's, a phone of someone like KK.

I didn't pick up this week the rare time I skimmed where it was only three and in this circle. Maybe I started out seeing what you at first too were not sure of and then you dialed in and I didn't see that.

I freely admit I'm a bit clueless on this topic as I said.

Your explanation though as to the map cleared that all up. So the phones were in the circle around the bodies? And it is narrowed to three? It isn't three additional beyond the likely or obvious expected ones? One could well be RA's and one Libby's (and defense sure wont put it that way) so there may be only one?

I probably saw the beginning of what you wondered and not what you came to determine. I don't do this thread full on, gave up long ago although at least some things aren't still being gone on about.

Many agree on some things and not on others or it was that way. And that's okay. Until things are put out as fact and no imo or speculation that aren't. Jmo. There ya go.

For instance I never exclude generally 100 percent and I hadn't 100 percent excluded RL except NOT as BG. I came to though and I wonder why he is low on my radar any longer as being involved in any way. Others were there first excluding him before I and saying let the man RIP. I can entertain anything reasonable and possible but not far fetched-- but in the very surety he was involved lint these last months and what we know now led me to the reasons I saw that he was likely not. So the very effort convinced me otherwise. Or pretty close anyhow. I never ever go 100.

Never have I believed here he was BG. I entertained it back in the day and others as well. Every person even JT thread came up with by people that could be, this case has been something else. I compared looks , I compared voices, I think anyone who has followed from early on has.

BUT NEVER HAVE I SAID that's dead ringer for a voice until one on RA that I SHOULD HAVE SAVED or find and share again. I said it in this thread but have no clue how to seacha and find.

Anyhow definitely a heated one with varying opinions and some falling for or to be nice saying they see the truth of what defense says, etc. while prosecution stays silent as they do in most cases and abide by not compromsing the investigation. I can't imagine how much the human side wants to throw back and show the public. Defense takes advantage of that and most prosecutions don't engage or fall into it. I agree and disagree with that.

Anyhow, I am sidetracking or going on in rare time to catch up with any cases. Although I do manage. Saw the Carlee Russell thing for instance. SAw most of Harmony's justice even though I had to watch the trial after a long day or before because it was thankfully recorded.

Anyhow, back to the initial thing. You explained the map to where I understand so now is it know that the three phones in the circle are or aren't RA's, Libby's and so? Or not known and these are three extra phones?Again I admit to not being up on it.

Thanks for the clarification though. It did tell me why I did not get about the map before you explained.

Yes I think they have 3 phones registering in that circle between hours from like midday to 5 pm or something like that so one could be RL going to the dump, one could be RA and one could be Libby's phone. I guess we won't know until trial.

Also, the D challenged the search warrant and wanted it thrown out so there is a lot of evidence found in that search that they don't want allowed. From what I remember, I think those items would be

1. The Sig Sauer handgun matching the ejected bullet from the crime scene.
2. Many phones were found and listed as taken away from the premises. Hopefully one of those will be his "stock ticker" phone. He could also have had more than one phone with him that day.
3. A bullet found in a keepsake box on a dresser.
4. Some items of clothing from the crime scene were missing and I think they found some during the search.
5. The Blue Carhardt jacket.
6. Boots and gloves.
7. His car and carpet from car.


There's probably more but that is all I can think of for now.