LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

No wonder no one's talking of it, most of us won't waste our time reading it and anyone who did knows the ridiculous content.

 

[Tresir]

Well we have disagreed before and sometimes we just need to agree to disagree. I see no hint nor reason to think a deal will result in this case. Rick may have been and be even yet willing to take a life without parole sentence or some such and not go through trial but his attorneys, wife and mom are not on board imo. I don't think he WANTS what is in the evidence known to the public. He likely knows by now his wife and mom may well know and have remained by him so perhaps quit worrying about that but maybe he too with that out of the way wants to go to trial and make no deal.

I'm curious what you think prosecution would offer for a deal of a man who slaughtered two female teenagers in cold blood...? And why you'd think they'd give much if at all? It isn't UP to Rick. They can say we aren't interested in ANY deal.

Perhaps if he confessed ALL and took two life sentences without parole for the murders, MAYBE they'd dismiss anything else. And of course the girls' family can weigh in and add a lot of weight but it isn't up to the victims, it is up to the prosecutor/s and even then a judge doesn't have to approve a deal the two sides made either. Smart prosecutors do listen to the victims' families but they don't have to abide by whether they agree to or reject any deals.

I'd point out again even if both sides agree, a judge doesn't have to rubber stamp it either and they don't like Gull so why would they risk that...? Of course any judge too would be dumb too to go against an agreement by all parties...

For all these reasons, I see no deal unless he agrees to life on both girls murders without parole and owns up. I don't think they'd consider any less. The prosecution.

It also goes against everything they are saying and doing, he didn't do it remember? So why would he make a deal if he didn't?

Yeah, we just disagree on this point which is okay.

I thought that P had already offered a deal but they wanted RA to forego appeal rights so it didn't fly. Didn't we already read that at some point? Also RA wrote to the warden requesting a plea deal, didn't he? So that's twice at least it has been mentioned.

Re the prisoner refusing to attend court - I realise now they were talking about Baston and not RA and the Sheriff left without him. For some reason the D are criticising Judge Gull for that.

From the WRTV link that Ima posted -


"DELPHI — Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen say they will call Judge Frances Gull as a defense witness in a future hearing.

RELATED | Reinstated Richard Allen attorneys request disqualification of special judge (wrtv.com)

In a Tuesday filing, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull will be asked to testify on the credibility of a Carroll County Sheriff's Office (CCSO) report.


According to the attorneys, in the June 2023 report, Judge Gull allegedly told a CCSO Deputy that they could ignore a
subpoena for Westville Correctional facility inmate Robert Baston, who was supposed to testify about Allen's abusive treatment in prison.

Gull's order "left Mr. Allen without crucial evidence for the hearing, thereby subverting justice for him," the defense said.

However, in a May 2023 order, Judge Gull denies telling the CCSO to ignore the subpeona.

In fact, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull stated that, “The decision by the Deputy to leave without the witness was his and was not directed by the Court.”

Now, the lawyers are asking Judge Gull to testify that the report, approved by Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby, was in fact false.

"Given that Judge Gull is the only individual who knows that she did not direct the CCSO office to ignore the subpoena and leave Mr. Baston at Westville (despite the contrary assertions in the CCSO report) she has become a witness to Tobe Leazenby’s truthfulness and to the fact that the information contained in CCSO’s report is false," the defense wrote.

The defense plans to call Judge Gull as a witness at a future hearing."

Anyway, I think D are just clutching at straws now. I'm looking forward to this July pre trial conference, when these points will presumably be dealt with.

Glad you had a good weekend but it sounds like it rushed by too quickly.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I thought that P had already offered a deal but they wanted RA to forego appeal rights so it didn't fly. Didn't we already read that at some point? Also RA wrote to the warden requesting a plea deal, didn't he? So that's twice at least it has been mentioned.

Re the prisoner refusing to attend court - I realise now they were talking about Baston and not RA and the Sheriff left without him. For some reason the D are criticising Judge Gull for that.

From the WRTV link that Ima posted -


"DELPHI — Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen say they will call Judge Frances Gull as a defense witness in a future hearing.

RELATED | Reinstated Richard Allen attorneys request disqualification of special judge (wrtv.com)

In a Tuesday filing, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull will be asked to testify on the credibility of a Carroll County Sheriff's Office (CCSO) report.


According to the attorneys, in the June 2023 report, Judge Gull allegedly told a CCSO Deputy that they could ignore a
subpoena for Westville Correctional facility inmate Robert Baston, who was supposed to testify about Allen's abusive treatment in prison.

Gull's order "left Mr. Allen without crucial evidence for the hearing, thereby subverting justice for him," the defense said.

However, in a May 2023 order, Judge Gull denies telling the CCSO to ignore the subpeona.

In fact, Allen's attorneys say Judge Gull stated that, “The decision by the Deputy to leave without the witness was his and was not directed by the Court.”

Now, the lawyers are asking Judge Gull to testify that the report, approved by Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby, was in fact false.

"Given that Judge Gull is the only individual who knows that she did not direct the CCSO office to ignore the subpoena and leave Mr. Baston at Westville (despite the contrary assertions in the CCSO report) she has become a witness to Tobe Leazenby’s truthfulness and to the fact that the information contained in CCSO’s report is false," the defense wrote.

The defense plans to call Judge Gull as a witness at a future hearing."

Anyway, I think D are just clutching at straws now. I'm looking forward to this July pre trial conference, when these points will presumably be dealt with.

Glad you had a good weekend but it sounds like it rushed by too quickly.

It did rush by too quickly and honestly they were only here for about 24 hours but we packed a lot into that time. They got her Saturday I forget what time, 10? And left Sunday at noon. Had the flea market not been rained out, they would have come a few hours earlier to attend that. Forgot to mention my sister made and brought some rhubarb scones and man were those good. I still have one more left.

RA can say to the warden he wants a plea deal but the warden has no such power to make plea deals. Is RA really this clueless about the legal system?a He has to deal with the prosecution. So I don't take that as meaning he would be offered one plus he can say he wants one all he wants, doesn't mean they are interested in giving him one...

As to them offering him one and him having to give up appeal rights, I don't recall that so can't say whether you are right or wrong on that. The man stupidly confessed before having a deal so he didn't leave himself much to bargain with imo...

Yes, they claim Gull told Leazenby if the prisoner said he wasn't coming and was going to fight with the guards to leave him. Gull denies directing the other guy, forget the name, to leave him. So B & R claim then if Gull is truthful, then Leazenby has to be lying and she is the only one who can testify to that. There by she is a witness and can't be the judge in the matter. Or that's the gist of it anyhow. And of course from there, they go on for 21 pages into all sorts of tiresome things and the usual mess of mistakes and spelling errors lol.

Tom had a lot of good points to this if you want to give him a listen.

They are tiresome, I am sick to death of them quite honestly and nothing can make me want to read a pleading of theirs. It was bearable going through it with Tom but still the same old sh*t had to listen to from them.

Of course it is not okay for a subpoena to be ignored but the prisoner was refusing They also can't say what Baston would have said on the stand. As always, they go into nothing but conjecture. There's also been a lot of prisoners refusing to attend court and their own hearings and trials lately and they are not forced to do so and if anyone had forced Baston in my opinion then we'd be hearing yelling about HIS rights and treatment imo. Whether Gull said leave him or not, to me, also isn't an order to the guard but whatever. I think it's a bunch of usual b.s. when as always they should be preparing for the CASE.

All the motions will be heard is it the end of July I think two days are scheduled. Let's see if defense is ready THIS time. After that it goes, August, September and then OCTOBER is here and they'd better be preparing for trial, smdh.

I'll tell you I have no desire to see a plea deal here. The girls deserve full justice and I want to see the trial and how well both sides do their job and all the evidence.

The absolutely maybe dumbest thing they've ever said was in this filing. Gull called NM a ding dong over a bathroom break. If I recall it right she mentioned taking a lunch break then since he needed the bathroom. B or R didn't want a lunch break but she gave one anyhow. Then at another time they wanted to confer with RA in the hall re the speedy trial and Gull let them but she didn't call him a Ding Dong and so I guess that means she's partial to NM?!! Or some RIDICULOUS thing. So now I guess they feel a need to be called a Ding Dong or they aren't special to Gull like NM. SERIOUSLY this sh*t is in this filing towards the end of it. Tom had a wisecrack or two about that you can be sure one of which was to the effect of they've devolved into arguing about ding dongs instead of representing their client. I tell ya, no one can make this sh*t up and they must enjoy being laughingstocks is all I can figure!

 

[Tresir]

JustI realised I have posted that info from WRTV twice. Sorry about that.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

When anything of importance happens, I'll start following again. The trial should be interesting.

 

[GrandmaBear]

When anything of importance happens, I'll start following again. The trial should be interesting.

I so agree. I didn't think the prosecution filing or the defense filing, etc. were new nor interesting either....

Happy to hear you are taking this approach.

Actually there was something in there you may have found interesting and that is the chain of custody the D wants on a handful of items of evidence, the bullet being just one of I believe four they mentioned... So perhaps these are he only pieces of evidence which you'd run with if you saw it imo OR the defense wants us to believe that...

 

[Tresir]

When anything of importance happens, I'll start following again. The trial should be interesting.

I guess we have about a month till the pre trial hearing, unless anything else happens like D taking Gull to the ISC again.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I guess we have about a month till the pre trial hearing, unless anything else happens like D taking Gull to the ISC again.

The way I understand the ISC more or less said don't bother us again lol, not that that would necessarily stop the D.

I not nicely I guess but deservedly call them bozos but I'm wondering if I should change it to Ding Dongs which they actually wish to be called and one whined that he was not called a Ding Dong.

Just once I'd like something to proceed and to see that they can actually be prepared to argue all their own motions and the P's responses and their motions. I'm not holding my breath. The taste of two we've seen of it they did as they do in their filings and seguewayed and wandered all over off track. They pretty much delay or avoid such each and every time, blaming it on something, to not go forward with a hearing, etc.

IF for any reason these get delayed, all these hearings on all the motions is what I'm talking at the end of July, then I'd say be prepared for the trial not to go forward in October and that they have no intent of seeing that happen (the D). Jmo. Not to mention the clock would be ticking, just August, September, then trial.

 

[Tresir]

The way I understand the ISC more or less said don't bother us again lol, not that that would necessarily stop the D.

I not nicely I guess but deservedly call them bozos but I'm wondering if I should change it to Ding Dongs which they actually wish to be called and one whined that he was not called a Ding Dong.

Just once I'd like something to proceed and to see that they can actually be prepared to argue all their own motions and the P's responses and their motions. I'm not holding my breath. The taste of two we've seen of it they did as they do in their filings and seguewayed and wandered all over off track. They pretty much delay or avoid such each and every time, blaming it on something, to not go forward with a hearing, etc.

IF for any reason these get delayed, all these hearings on all the motions is what I'm talking at the end of July, then I'd say be prepared for the trial not to go forward in October and that they have no intent of seeing that happen (the D). Jmo. Not to mention the clock would be ticking, just August, September, then trial.

Maybe we can just call them Dongs LOL. I know the ISC said that but they take no notice and seem to do what they like anyway. I still think there will be a deal and the D are just spinning their wheels here.
(Ha ha - D is for Dongs from now on.)

 

[GrandmaBear]

Maybe we can just call them Dongs LOL. I know the ISC said that but they take no notice and seem to do what they like anyway. I still think there will be a deal and the D are just spinning their wheels here.
(Ha ha - D is for Dongs from now on.)

Lol. They have become for me permanent bozos. I have thought that so much and said it enough it has become the descriptor and will be hard to shake. But I can go with that, although I may in my mind keep the Ding part because it is like ding, ding, ding puddingheads will you ever have a light bulb moment and you GET IT and the brain start working... There are times I think some of it intentional but no one could want to look this dumb...

Entirely agree they'll do what they like anyhow and then look like the slapped down little boys again and some will feel sorry for them after they get excited that they filed with the ISC or some such.

I am going to struggle to get the ding dong or dong thing in my head. Every time I type ding dong or when I heard it, I then think the witch is dead.... Wizard of Oz or then I think of Twinkies and Ho Hos, etc... LMAO.

It was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in a court filing, him wanting to be called a Ding Dong by Gull because NM was....

Once again I feel sorry for RA having stuck himself with these two. I don't see how anyone can help but feel that way. Jmo.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Tom is on live. I NEVER catch a live but for the first time ever have a week of days and not all over the place shifts so home at 4 or 5 all week (next week back to normal) and I believe for the first time he is going to take callers for discussion.

 

[GrandmaBear]

So I never finished the live linked above. I was tired and didn't get through. So watching more tonight as never got back to it.

A good point he made. Someone mentioned how not only does defense want the bridge video not allowed in but NOTHING FROM Libby's phone.... He responded to that and while talking came to also realize and mention in discussing it RA's phone/s and etc. and how since they want all from the search warrant thrown out, that would effectively throw out anything of RA's too, from car GPS, to car, to phones, to you name it. They want EVERYTHING not allowed in or thrown out.

I've said for months that they have real problems and something is in the evidence and MORE than one thing imo that has them really concerned but I felt this was a really good point, they are trying to get rid of EVERYTHING. I can't recall the basis or if they gave one for getting rid of Libby's phone evidence or the BG video but I can't imagine any solid basis for it. It's not HIS phone, etc. and they needed no search warrant for such and so on. This is my take the last parts here.

He also was asked about the Ding Dong thing lol. I've already said plenty on that and how absolutely stupid they look putting that in a court filing as if they are jealous Gull called NM a ding dong but never called Rozzi one at any time...He filled in viewers that dind't know about it and then added that remember, they wanted all things Gull said about them in other things removed from the record that insulted them or whatever, and now here they are whining they weren't called Ding Dongs... HOW does anyone take these attorneys seriously?

He also commented on with all these confessions (30 or more) he didn't change his PLEA to guilty, the clearly wanted to confess and so change your plea no? Well I know the answer to that, his attorneys would not let him and that alone makes them unethical attorneys and that was after the fact of his confession to wife and mom but also he never was in contact with them or had contact with them to consult prior to that!

HOW can anyone defend these defense attorneys? I don't understand it. We have seen nothing but total unprofessionalism, not doing their job and stupid sh*t in so many filings and if anyone has not acknowledged the stupid sh*t long before this, the DING DONG remark should take the cake. The Hostess Cup Cake. Or I guess the Ding Dong. What KIND OF attorneys put something like this in a COURT FILING.

And we all know if she had called Rozzi (or B) a Ding Dong what they'd be whining then...Personally maybe they want to be called such sot hey can say SEE how she insulted us...

There is NOT ONE part of me that thinks the D will be ready or want to go in October either....They'll wait for the hearings at the end of July and decisions AND I would not doubt they wont' even be prepared to go on those...

 

[Tresir]

Not much happening at present so a little recap of this PC in 2022 and what was said about the suspect at that time. This was approx only 18 months before RA was arrested and he would have been around 44 or 45 at the time of the murders.

Seven mysteries in 'Delphi murders' after teens found dead on Valentine's Day

MYSTERY continues to surround the so-called Delphi Snapchat murders, nearly five years on from the killings of two teenage girls in Indiana who were found dead near a train track back in 2017. The …

www.thesun.co.uk

'KILLER IN THE ROOM'​

More than two years after the audio clip was released, Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter held a press conference to unveil a new composite sketch of the suspected killer.
During the conference, Carter said police believe the killer has local ties and shockingly claimed that the killer could even be sat in the room with them.
"Directly to the killer, who may be in this room: We believe you’re hiding in plain sight," Carter said. "We've likely interviewed you or someone close to you."

Carter added that investigators believe the suspect was between 18 and 40 years old, but likely looks much younger than his age.
"We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.
He did not take answers during or after the press conference, however his remarks at the time seemed to indicate that cops believed they were close to zeroing in on the suspect.
"We are confident you have told someone what you have done. Or at the very least, they know because of how different you are since the murders," he said.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Not much happening at present so a little recap of this PC in 2022 and what was said about the suspect at that time. This was approx only 18 months before RA was arrested and he would have been around 44 or 45 at the time of the murders.

Seven mysteries in 'Delphi murders' after teens found dead on Valentine's Day

MYSTERY continues to surround the so-called Delphi Snapchat murders, nearly five years on from the killings of two teenage girls in Indiana who were found dead near a train track back in 2017. The …

www.thesun.co.uk

'KILLER IN THE ROOM'​

More than two years after the audio clip was released, Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter held a press conference to unveil a new composite sketch of the suspected killer.
During the conference, Carter said police believe the killer has local ties and shockingly claimed that the killer could even be sat in the room with them.
"Directly to the killer, who may be in this room: We believe you’re hiding in plain sight," Carter said. "We've likely interviewed you or someone close to you."

Carter added that investigators believe the suspect was between 18 and 40 years old, but likely looks much younger than his age.
"We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.
He did not take answers during or after the press conference, however his remarks at the time seemed to indicate that cops believed they were close to zeroing in on the suspect.
"We are confident you have told someone what you have done. Or at the very least, they know because of how different you are since the murders," he said.

Once RA was arrested looking at some things in hindsight can seem to take on new significance. I remember feeling in that presser that they knew who but did not have enough, or were trying to convince of that, that he was local, could be watching or in the room, etc. I also recall other remarks through the years and one was the indication that someone was covering for the killer, like a wife, a parent of an adult child, etc.... And that when thinking about RA takes on a new significance. However, all of it may mean nothing and is just what they went towards and felt the killer to be and profiling stuff and wanted the pressure to seem that way....?

They'd have us believe it was all a screw up by Doolin and that the tip and interview notes were misfiled but I know you think it possibly otherwise and they've known but kept a lid on it right? However, if that's the case, they take a real risk in lying about such and I don't think they can do so even to protect the investigation and certainly not at the point defense gets all info as well...

Anyhow, he was hiding in plain sight...

So most of these hearings on motions are set for the end of July. Just once I'd like to see defense has prepared and done their job and these actually go forward. I swear I haven't seen a real bit of representation out of them yet as far as addressing the case itself and proceeding on motions and so on. If they do, I'm predicting right now that it will be a sideways all over the place thing in the hearings on the defense side, more likely I'm seeing another kink trying to be thrown in or delay. I also don't know what could possibly come next after being jealous of not being called a Ding Dong. They regress even worse over time... JMO of course.

We already most of us said were going to have had it if this trial didn't go off the last time and it didn't. Now we will see if it goes off in October. If it doesn't and they find some other things when they've used all imo already and had too many chances, I will be convinced of what I already am. And that's that there's a lot of evidence and if admitted, they know what the result is going to be and they have no defense unless all is ruled inadmissible and I don't see any reason most of it would be. Jmo.

And they still won't have prepared and done their job imo IF INDEED it does go forward.

I don't even hold my breath on this one any longer or count on anything proceeding and that includes the late July motion hearings...

 

[RoundPeg]

I know. We have both linked and provided it LOL. Over 30 confessions !!!! This will not go to trial - I am predicting right now that he will take a plea.

I have some time on my hands so here I am.

What do you think the prosecution might offer as a plea deal?

 

[GrandmaBear]

I know I'm not being asked but if the prosecution feels they have a strong case, I don't see them offering anything but life in prison times two, whether consecutive or concurrent. I also haven't seen a thing that hints they are even willing to offer him a deal. He may have asked the warden for one but as we know, the warden doesn't have any power to make deals.

On top of that the defense attorneys have shown no hint of looking for a deal even if RA wanted one which I don't agree with on their part.

This was a heinous and cruel double slaying of children and no DP is on the table, what deal could possibly be made that either side would agree on...

MAYBE if RA doesn't want all known or heard he would accept two life sentences with dismissal of other charges/ Do they still have the kidnapping, etc. on the table, I can't recall...

We saw recently in the Rounds case how imo the mom and dad got (drawing a blank on the name right now of the defendant) ________ to give up the son's body in exchange for a deal. That had to be hard as it COULD let a murderer out back on the streets but she is pushing on that after the deal to not parole him and I'm sure will be there every step when and if that occurs AND the judge came down on him as hard as he could and also stated that he had no more power to do more due to the deal but for any parole board to look at his lack of remorse, etc.

It isn't up to the family but I guess A & L's families could push or agree to deal just to END this but they also know where their kids are unlike how it was in Rounds.

Maybe they'd agree to some liberty in prison or a certain prison if he would admit guilt...?

I'm not sure. What do you think? Do you think there's a possibility of such?

I don't know that there is much mutual bargaining position between the sides although apparently RA WANTED to and DID admit guilt and asked for a deal of some sort... However, that seems to have been squashed or him reconvinced by his attorneys.

This is arguably one of the best followed and known cases in the country and has been for years, even perhaps outside of the country. It was HEINOUS and the brutal taking and controlling and murdering of two young school girls.

Of course, not all has went perfectly like when it comes to missing that RA was there at the trails for five years...

However, it has seemed to me the prosecution has been ready to go and try this case each and every time some stunt or delay is pulled to stall it. And RA is became very worried, imo, of the evidence he saw the defense had someone drop off hence his confessions to wife and mom. I find that telling. And the defense is trying to squash every single thing there is, also worried imo.

It's just my opinion. Curious as to the opinion of others.

I agree with @Tresir quite a lot in this case, more than we do on some, pretty close to same page here a lot of the time but I don't really follow her thinking there will be a deal. I've seen absolutely no hint the prosecution is willing to offer one, the only thing we have is RA writing the warden about such and again, that isn't who you talk to for a deal. I'm sure if the defense wanted to ask for one or barter, the prosecution might listen but if something ridiculous would reject it without even thinking twice, imo and so would the family, imo.

No one wants these girls' killer ever back out in society, again imo.

I'm trying to look at this subject in a fair way. These sides don't even TALK where in most cases, defense and prosecution do talk. That's hard for the public to sometimes understand but they do when it comes to some things and what can be agreed on and as to hearings, delays, discovery, etc. So that's just another thing that I think would make a deal unlikely. B & R aren't going to approach the prosecution BUT I do think if RA wanted such, it would be their job to do so, with regard to a deal.

I'll stay away from my opinion on that...

I think @Tresir is not going to be on til later and so I took have a rare moment or two so just offering thoughts on this. This day off is flying by way too fast.

I should add just as I was about to close that IF RA was going to admit guilt, it may open a door... I mean that's big and so many never will but they aren't going to give him some light sentence in return AND they may well have clear indication of his guilt and not need it which is likely why he lost it and told his wife and mom. And NOW there are a the confessions on top of it that we have not seen which may be very clear as to dates and times and more and the info in them that HE DID DO THIS, and so do they even need him to admit guilt, they may have plenty already so why deal.

Kind of like a jury verdict, I'd like to make a guess here. The only deal would result from his admitting guilt, taking life without parole sentences or at least until he is 80 or 90 AND the only thing he'd really gain would be the trial not going public and all learning the facts of this case that we don't yet know or his wife and mom and family, etc. not going through such. Even then, the info will come out but he'd save them the months, years and trial which imo will still be attempted to be aborted in October by the defense.

It is jmo based on what I see. What do you think?

To make a weaker deal than that, for the P to do so, it would be the family pushing for it or the P thinking the case isn't strong. And I've seen on sign of that, all I ever see is one side ready to go and the other side nowhere close and panicked.

I don't say this to even put down the defense (which I do and have done) but because it seems clear there is just stuff they do NOT WANT KNOWN or to come out. And the same with RA.

You know on one hand they say that video and voice is so clearly not RA so why then do they want Libby's recording and all on her phone not allowed in? It should HELP their client then no? You'd WANT it then no? Unless something very obviously incriminating to their client is on it... Do we even KNOW if anything else was on that phone from that day, etc....? Other than the BG minutes we've seen....? I don't think we do... That just gave me some food for thought...

People run on both sides of this but I don't think it can be denied the P has been very tight with not releasing much and SO have the authorities in the years of PC and searching for the killer... They were criticized plenty for not releasing more and assumed they didn't have more now is what some are doing... This case has hardly had a THING YET where anything more would come out as defense keeps sidetracking things...

Anyhow, now I am wandering some so will stop. Swept my floor and want to mop it yet. Made some sauce. Etc. Work days go by with a minute seeming like an hour and days off go by with a day seeming like one second.

Happy 4th by the way!

 

[RoundPeg]

I'd be satisfied with a plea that includes 2 counts of murder, LWOP, drop everything else (charges). If the prosecution offers to the defense, they have to run it by RA. Question is, would Gull approve it?

I may have missed it, but I don't remember anything in court papers about RA asking the warden for a plea deal.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'd be satisfied with a plea that includes 2 counts of murder, LWOP, drop everything else (charges). If the prosecution offers to the defense, they have to run it by RA. Question is, would Gull approve it?

I may have missed it, but I don't remember anything in court papers about RA asking the warden for a plea deal.

I don't know that it is in papers but I believe it has been referenced in papers recently or is it just still a rumor? As far as him wanting a deal from the warden? I tend to think it was in a prosecution filing but I CERTAINLY could be wrong with all that's went on in this case.

I'd agree on the plea deal, I can't see anything less. On pretty much the same page on that, noting less. Yes defense has to run it by RA and should not sway or influence him, imo. Judges, even with what you or some or any may think of Gull, are kind of in a bit of a hot seat if they don't approve a deal AGREED to by both sides if not a ridiculous deal. I don't see where she wouldn't agree to two counts, LWOP and be happy to leave this case behind her.

We may not agree on everything but do on a lot here. I think most want this tried and done other than the defense. That's how it looks to me anyhow. No matter the opinions, I don't think she enjoyies this or needs it, it's been nothing but issue after issue.

Other than that, and not even sure on that your opinion, I'd agree with what you said. Judge has the final word but again I don't see any judge going against a deal like that nor do I see the families having a problem with it. Although of course one can't speak for any of them and perhaps there is something about seeing it through. If it was a number of years with a chance of parole, I'd say they could well have issue with it.

I feel for them. It isn't the same but is. We went THREE years with delays, traveling for a hearing only to find out canceled or rescheduled, etc. They've been whatever it is, the five without it solved and now an additional number and no signs still that it will proceed. It may be scheduled to but I'm not counting on it. However that's not unique to any murder case or even case, I comment on it probably and nauseum, the delays in almost every trial for years on end.

I do think I have never seen the defense prepared yet but am not here to argue that if you or anyone disagrees. I think they've asked for some of what they've gotten. I also can see where Gull may be looked at as biased however I look at what she is dealing with as to the defense. So those are areas many of us don't agree maybe. And all we can do is go by how we see it.

But this post is about any possible plea deal, not do debate on things we might disagree on. I don't see why anyone would refuse two counts and LWOP and no chance of getting out. Well except for the defense and RA maybe. What does he gain except not putting his family through trial or having more info come out? I guess though he'd only have a murder conviction to appeal but with a deal would he or would they want he give up the right for appeal...

Even though the DP has no teeth in most states any longer that still have it, it does provide a bargaining chip and there isn't that here. So I guess overall I still don't see a plea bargain being struck unless RA just wants it over and to admit to it and lose the other charges. Also we wouldn't know if this offer has already been made... Doubtful but they wouldn't have to share it.

To @Tresir again I'm just not seeing where she thinks this will end in one. Or that such is on the table. But then I don't do a lot of other sources and I know some do and she does. I used to but no longer other than YT. No FB, no Reddit, I don't do Twitter, etc. So I may be out of the loop on that quite possibly.

I'm not being very productive today. I've gotten done mostly what I needed to and not much extra as always. Day isn't done yet though so still might get at least one or two more things done lol. We shall see.

Did you get a four day weekend? Most did I know. Not here. I wish. I could really use one without any plans or obligations.

 

[RoundPeg]

I don't know that it is in papers but I believe it has been referenced in papers recently or is it just still a rumor? As far as him wanting a deal from the warden? I tend to think it was in a prosecution filing but I CERTAINLY could be wrong with all that's went on in this case.

I'd agree on the plea deal, I can't see anything less. On pretty much the same page on that, noting less. Yes defense has to run it by RA and should not sway or influence him, imo. Judges, even with what you or some or any may think of Gull, are kind of in a bit of a hot seat if they don't approve a deal AGREED to by both sides if not a ridiculous deal. I don't see where she wouldn't agree to two counts, LWOP and be happy to leave this case behind her.

We may not agree on everything but do on a lot here. I think most want this tried and done other than the defense. That's how it looks to me anyhow. No matter the opinions, I don't think she enjoyies this or needs it, it's been nothing but issue after issue.

Other than that, and not even sure on that your opinion, I'd agree with what you said. Judge has the final word but again I don't see any judge going against a deal like that nor do I see the families having a problem with it. Although of course one can't speak for any of them and perhaps there is something about seeing it through. If it was a number of years with a chance of parole, I'd say they could well have issue with it.

I feel for them. It isn't the same but is. We went THREE years with delays, traveling for a hearing only to find out canceled or rescheduled, etc. They've been whatever it is, the five without it solved and now an additional number and no signs still that it will proceed. It may be scheduled to but I'm not counting on it. However that's not unique to any murder case or even case, I comment on it probably and nauseum, the delays in almost every trial for years on end.

I do think I have never seen the defense prepared yet but am not here to argue that if you or anyone disagrees. I think they've asked for some of what they've gotten. I also can see where Gull may be looked at as biased however I look at what she is dealing with as to the defense. So those are areas many of us don't agree maybe. And all we can do is go by how we see it.

But this post is about any possible plea deal, not do debate on things we might disagree on. I don't see why anyone would refuse two counts and LWOP and no chance of getting out. Well except for the defense and RA maybe. What does he gain except not putting his family through trial or having more info come out? I guess though he'd only have a murder conviction to appeal but with a deal would he or would they want he give up the right for appeal...

Even though the DP has no teeth in most states any longer that still have it, it does provide a bargaining chip and there isn't that here. So I guess overall I still don't see a plea bargain being struck unless RA just wants it over and to admit to it and lose the other charges. Also we wouldn't know if this offer has already been made... Doubtful but they wouldn't have to share it.

To @Tresir again I'm just not seeing where she thinks this will end in one. Or that such is on the table. But then I don't do a lot of other sources and I know some do and she does. I used to but no longer other than YT. No FB, no Reddit, I don't do Twitter, etc. So I may be out of the loop on that quite possibly.

I'm not being very productive today. I've gotten done mostly what I needed to and not much extra as always. Day isn't done yet though so still might get at least one or two more things done lol. We shall see.

Did you get a four day weekend? Most did I know. Not here. I wish. I could really use one without any plans or obligations.

No, I didn't. I'm taking today off. I worked yesterday, will work a little tomorrow, and have Sunday off. Then again, I freely admit I like to work.

 

[GrandmaBear]

No, I didn't. I'm taking today off. I worked yesterday, will work a little tomorrow, and have Sunday off. Then again, I freely admit I like to work.

Oh I love to work and most of my life was office management, I just don't like at this age being on my feet all day. I could go back to the other I'm sure but then there are other things that come with that, including starting over with benefits and you name it and that's not somewhere I am at or can do at the moment. Also the older you get if you find yourself where you thought you and a hub were heading to retirement and he tells you you can quit your job and then you find out his mid life b.s., well I guess it just depends on your age and life and what life throws at ya.

I love to work and I love the people I work with and where I work.

I also know the value of time off and family.

On top of that I worked at home for years from a job I started at a physical office, 20 years, and helped change them to the work at home model long before most did such.

I'm not anti work, Clearly. I am anti life and work balance. I did enough of that when my kids were young and I wished I could have more balance. And now am wishing it again to be able to see my mom and grandkids more etc. Working weekends when kids are in school doesn't allow for rmuch time, what when tired at night and dark at 4 in the winter?

So I guess it all just depends.

Bringing that all back to the thread, as I am going off topic, and speaking of work, I still want to know what RA's work schedule was that day and week and the story and events as known from the wife and daughter. If there WOULD be any plea deal I'd wait for all the info to be released unless IN doesn't do that. It was a given everywhere as far as I ever knew not so many years back but things seem to have changed a lot in some areas. They won't sometimes give out discovery and investigation stuff UNTIL done and then all can be released for the most part.

Which is why things like the Epstein thing being held for years and the Shannon Gilbert 911 call etc. in the LI case are so outrageous that it takes how long and is kept back... If they are NOT doing anything on it, then give it up and give it out. You are supposed to be accountable to the public and are a public servant. Man where do you see that recognition any longer that they are in office to serve the public. Ha ha.

But again starting to kind of sidetrack like the work thing did here.

I think when the trial here was recently to go off and did not, it was the end of the rope for the families, jmo, but then they had to as happens go through such and face it again but I think it is overdue for them by far and all the public and the ridiculousness to be done and thought it was time with the last one and I don't think B & R will want it going off in October either... I hope I'm wrong. People had had it before the last scheduled time and have of course differing opinions, some coming from the defense blizzard. It is past time it just gets tried and the evidence seen. Jmo.

Next week my two days off are half shot. I am having a survey done of the home I own in another state. I have someone that will be there for it but I feel I should be so probably a one day back and forth. I hate that. Trying to handle things in two different states when you can't be there is its own fun. Not.

I've had actually a pretty relaxed day. The patio door is open, the cats are happy, my sister finally made the flea market where my daughter sells and some contact back and forth there. More I should get done, I only just now filled the mop bucket but it's a pretty darned nice day.

A bit boring on YT and people around on here pretty nonexistent when I check while doing a lot of others things. Been pretty quiet. But that's okay too. Needed. Watched a bunch of nonserious Canadian mom and her kids and what she packs for lunches and cooks etc. Sometimes just mundane and normal is nice.

Do you think this trial will go off in October, again to wind myself back here?