LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[RoundPeg]

Yes, it is in my post about the MH specialist interviewing him.

Aha!

 

[GrandmaBear]

Oh boy. While I am somewhat undecided if they should be allowed this ridiculous defense, this is the kind of thing the families and all attending are going to have to listen to. Sounds like much about the crime scene was talked of as the reporter puts it and pictures and such.

The families did attend which I figured, we did, one is compelled to, one needs to as hard as it is to go through it all.

I still think the entire theory is ridiculous and they have ABSOLUTELY no way of placing any of these people at the scene. I truly think a couple of cases with these recent ludicrous defenses if allowed are taking things way too far, but I also don't want to see this overturned on appeal if convicted. Imo the defense has nothing else and this is what they came up with or they will have no defense.

Naming again it sounds like these alternate suspects which also bothers me since there is absolutely no proof they have a SINGLE tie to these crimes. Defense says this is a white supremacy group, and that too makes little sense with the murders of two white teenaged girls. NO ties at all imo that can be shown. It is a stretch and made up out of almost nothing because SOME dumb cops fell into this theory. IMHO.

They have their expert there, offered the FB post (they want $12,000 because they had to take a trip to go get) and mention what the ex wife of the "man" said. All stuff we have heard before.

I am still watching. Just paused to comment on part of it. Haven't heard talk of the argument from the P yet other than their expert says the blood on the tree is a transfer stain coming from one of the victim's hands. Something to think about is I doubt an O expert (like the defense's I assume) knows sh*t about forensic evidence of blood spatter or transfer.

Oh and I guess the ex wife testified.

Here:

 

[GrandmaBear]

When still married, ex told her he knew who killed the girls, 2018 I believe she was told that. Uh huh. And that she needed to keep her mouth shut or she'd be killed. Okayyyy. This sounds really ridiculous to me, I'm sorry. Now they start on P argument that NONE of them can be tied to Delphi, OR the crime scene on the day of the murders.

@Cousin Dupree Sorry but they talk alternate suspects but not a single mention of RL.

 

[GrandmaBear]

And that too is why I think it should not be allowed. There is NOTHING tying these men to this crime. An ex wife and that is similar to an ex re RL too with bitter grapes probably and probably deserved. The had to have parachuted in, and what is it they claim, FOUR of them, teleported or some such maybe through Chad Daybell's portal they rented, etc. Personally I think there is PLENTY of reason to deny it, I think a sounder basis than what they have should be needed to accuse others and go to trial doing so but then, I don't know, let them flounder with it although I am sure it will sidetrack into how LE did not follow up on the ridiculous thing and more but then it will also be countered with alibi, but will definitely take the trial and jurors into a morass of again claims I see little basis for.

I'd bet in almost any murder case that tips come in that are ludicrous, maybe well meant even, with someone thinking their ex did it, something some idiot said because it is their area and a known crime and talking drunk or big, etc.

Last night in watching what is his name on L & C on the LISK case, Jesse maybe? He was saying since Heuermann's arrest, LE has received 7,000 tips and how they have to vet each and every one. You know I am sure in every case some of them are disgruntled exes, internet sleuths who saw some post on one of these O pages, psychics and you name it. But God forbid they don't keep going down a path that clearly is not the case here and then you have SOME cops that think it is the case when there is little supporting it.

And then the defense went with FOUR men right if I recall? And named them and again with absolutely no basis to place one much less all there. Some talk of none of RA's DNA, prints, etc. being there but we haven't been through trial yet and maybe the girl/s was found on something of his but now we have four that can't even be explained how they got there or why the four came together to do this or anything else. And again, white supremacy supposedly, and the girls were white.

We've hashed all that to death but to come back to the point, I don't think there is enough basis to allow them this BUT they did not deal for their client, do their homework, there is no defense imo they have otherwise, let him work a deal (confess and ask for one), and so on. I think to allow it is to go down a slippery slope in cases and defenses and just asking for rmore of such BUT then maybe let them hang themselves with it which may actually deter from some doing such?

I mean I don't know if there is basis for one or all of these men to sue after trial is over (probably could try now) but I'd almost think so... There is NOTHING here. I doubt the drawing is that spot on to the scene but even if it is, heck WE were hearing things back from the first and rumors of the scene. I'm sure in the local area in Delphi they were and that talk was rife AND rumors abounded. Three were HOW many people looking for these girls when found?

Personally from what I've watched and heard, matching the drawing to the scene, and the ridiculous thing about antlers is not even close to how it was and that "F" alleged "F" is not an "F" either imo. I haven't seen anything but it has been put out by those that supposedly did or some such or it is in the Frank's thing or something because a rendering has been seen.

And so, I don't know why, as my opinion is strong that such should not be allowed but then I am wondering if it wouldn't be better to go with it and let them totally lose it by offering such a theory with no to little basis. NONE. An ex. Just big talk by her hub to her. And again I doubt their expert is anything but an O or paganism expert, no forensic expert.

Oh the other thing is it was by water. OMG. DARN it that there was water anywhere nearby.

Curious as to what others think on if best to allow this, or not allow it. Will likely get few responses but for one or two if that but asking.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I forgot I was not done with this, the reporter played a news thing by another reporter and that ended and I was thinking it was ended but now it went back to the male reporter.

Okay so they are back to coercement by LE. Defense needs to make up its mind seriously. Re the confessions. 61 confessions are likely not coerced or due to a psychotic break. But WHICH is it? Of three different things they claim. Oh, I get it, we have a chain. He is isolated, incarcerated, treated wrongly, given or not given meds, then starts breaking down and I am just speculating here on what they are going to claim since they are all over the place, then coercion is going on on top of it and that is what happened right? For all 61.

Last I knew I thought they were sticking more to the mental break than coercion but guess not. But then maybe short term quick reporting does not cover all. That is what happens when not publicly aired in this day and age, misconceptions and never hearing or seeing all to know is going to occur.

Anyhow, I guess I am not done with it yet.

 

[GrandmaBear]

One last thing so right at the end they have some legal analyst on and she says and so if you get two theories (uhm I wouldn't say the prosecution case is a "theory" there is evidence) the jury will be instructed when weighing both possibilities that the one that makes the defendant innocent is the one if they can't decide they have to go with or some such. HUH?

I can only guess that means if the P has not proven their case or you can't decide then you have to go the other way, because you don't have enough proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it does NOT mean you accept the alternative theory of those men being guilty?! Very confusing way to put it if that is what she means and it is unclear what she means. I'm not sure what she means but she makes it sound like accepting one theory or the other (again P case is not a theory, it was enough for charges, etc.) means you believe the other one or are saying the other is true? What kind of junk is that? Wasn't a bad news thing until that.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'm still waiting for explanation of having to travel unnecessarily to get a FB post and it costing $12K.

I don't think I'm going to hear one. Haven't yet.

AND what happened to the other motions?? Search warrant, Holeman discussion/interview, etc. ?????

COME ON REPORTERS.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I am 20 minutes in.

NOW it is actually being touched on with regard to them wanting what was on Libby's phone.

Susan Hendricks was at the hearings. RA turned around and glared at them many a time, her and the family, etc.

As to the phone, first I've heard about it from these hearings, wondered what happened to some of these motions, they want it out because the discovery was handed over too late. The D I mean.

Baldwin was waving a crime scene photo they could all see at times and family warned other family look away.

If true, and I see no reason to think otherwise because I think this man is a cunning monster, the looking directly in the eyes and glaring at family, and her, when turning around is very telling.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Finally. Listening to people who see him as I do.

Glaring and staring at the family. Again if true, and I see no reason not to believe it.

He is evil.

I've compared him to CB/LISK. That is my feeling on him. I don't say it a lot because one can't know for sure, but I have said it here. This man is a monster.

They mention about his inability to control himself and some other things.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Boy, this is pretty good actually.

Nancy is saying how his attorneys have not schooled Allen on how to behave. Well no surprise there is it?

Glaring at Libby's grandma! More.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Man, I have to say this is a relief in a way. There has been so MUCH POOR RA sh*t and finally someone seeing him as I think he is. And it being SAID. It is how I've always seen him BUT the whole being fair and the I think agenda and most things put out had me mentioning it but not all of the time as to what I THINK HE IS.

HE IS a MONSTER.

And the family has to sit and deal with this and his glaring at THEM.

I mean if this is untrue Becky Patty could say otherwise so I'm taking it as fact AND IT FITS WHO I THINK HE IS.

His wife and mom need to get a clue. Imo. Assuming of course they are not a monster enabler/s.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Nancy thinks they shouldn't try to suppress the defense theory. Interesting too because I have just come to think maybe it is better to let them play their b.s. and watch them fail. They are saying too what I had said back here a few posts, and I thought so, if they put on a theory that strongly, they are taking on a burden of proof that they don't need to take on. LET THEM.

I mean this is a Nancy type of show and such but boy she is getting better and so are her shows. Imo. As to not being so whatever, I lack the right words...

FINALLY someone is talking and doing a show and it is not ALL poor RA stuff, believing O stuff, and more. Defense and their "people" on the internet sharing false sh*t, etc.

I don't go much for these kinds of channels but the OTHER side of this is in great NEED of being shown.

 

[GrandmaBear]

And yes one is saying they need to PICK a theory and reasons and stick to them. If that does not explain the defense, I don't know why does. Something else I keep saying. Or it is this reason, but then maybe it is that reason, etc.

Nancy called RA an IDIOT lol. More than once.

I don't know what it is, this was just NEEDED.

The defense has been the ones using the internet and media to put out b.s.

Nice to hear the OTHER side of this I guess.

 

[Tresir]

And that too is why I think it should not be allowed. There is NOTHING tying these men to this crime. An ex wife and that is similar to an ex re RL too with bitter grapes probably and probably deserved. The had to have parachuted in, and what is it they claim, FOUR of them, teleported or some such maybe through Chad Daybell's portal they rented, etc. Personally I think there is PLENTY of reason to deny it, I think a sounder basis than what they have should be needed to accuse others and go to trial doing so but then, I don't know, let them flounder with it although I am sure it will sidetrack into how LE did not follow up on the ridiculous thing and more but then it will also be countered with alibi, but will definitely take the trial and jurors into a morass of again claims I see little basis for.

I'd bet in almost any murder case that tips come in that are ludicrous, maybe well meant even, with someone thinking their ex did it, something some idiot said because it is their area and a known crime and talking drunk or big, etc.

Last night in watching what is his name on L & C on the LISK case, Jesse maybe? He was saying since Heuermann's arrest, LE has received 7,000 tips and how they have to vet each and every one. You know I am sure in every case some of them are disgruntled exes, internet sleuths who saw some post on one of these O pages, psychics and you name it. But God forbid they don't keep going down a path that clearly is not the case here and then you have SOME cops that think it is the case when there is little supporting it.

And then the defense went with FOUR men right if I recall? And named them and again with absolutely no basis to place one much less all there. Some talk of none of RA's DNA, prints, etc. being there but we haven't been through trial yet and maybe the girl/s was found on something of his but now we have four that can't even be explained how they got there or why the four came together to do this or anything else. And again, white supremacy supposedly, and the girls were white.

We've hashed all that to death but to come back to the point, I don't think there is enough basis to allow them this BUT they did not deal for their client, do their homework, there is no defense imo they have otherwise, let him work a deal (confess and ask for one), and so on. I think to allow it is to go down a slippery slope in cases and defenses and just asking for rmore of such BUT then maybe let them hang themselves with it which may actually deter from some doing such?

I mean I don't know if there is basis for one or all of these men to sue after trial is over (probably could try now) but I'd almost think so... There is NOTHING here. I doubt the drawing is that spot on to the scene but even if it is, heck WE were hearing things back from the first and rumors of the scene. I'm sure in the local area in Delphi they were and that talk was rife AND rumors abounded. Three were HOW many people looking for these girls when found?

Personally from what I've watched and heard, matching the drawing to the scene, and the ridiculous thing about antlers is not even close to how it was and that "F" alleged "F" is not an "F" either imo. I haven't seen anything but it has been put out by those that supposedly did or some such or it is in the Frank's thing or something because a rendering has been seen.

And so, I don't know why, as my opinion is strong that such should not be allowed but then I am wondering if it wouldn't be better to go with it and let them totally lose it by offering such a theory with no to little basis. NONE. An ex. Just big talk by her hub to her. And again I doubt their expert is anything but an O or paganism expert, no forensic expert.

Oh the other thing is it was by water. OMG. DARN it that there was water anywhere nearby.

Curious as to what others think on if best to allow this, or not allow it. Will likely get few responses but for one or two if that but asking.

I think Gull will likely have a hearing just for the F motions. They could even bring in BH and PW to answer these ridiculous accusations. I mean how did they even get there and leave without being seen? Teleportation? That is the way to deal with it so that time at trial will not be wasted on it.

Regarding RL, I came across this article that explains his whereabouts that day and confirms he was not a suspect.

Man admits to driving to dump on day Delphi teens were found murdered on his property

DELPHI, Ind. -- (WXIN) -- Ron Logan admitted to a Carroll County judge that he violated probation in late February by driving to a county dumpsite on the day two young Delphi girls were found murdered on his land.

truecrimenews.com

@Cousin Dupree - Please note first sentence copied from the article.

"Logan is not considered a suspect in the killings.

The 77-year-old man was on probation for a 2014 Operating While Intoxicated conviction and was found to be a Habitual Traffic Offender.

His high-profile locally and in news reports about the killings coincided with not only the trip to the Carroll County Waste Transfer Station but also an admitted visit to a restaurant in Tippecanoe County, where Logan was spotted drinking alcohol in violation of his probation.

Logan was jailed and held without bond one month ago.

“We allege that he violated those conditions of his probation by drinking, by having access to his vehicle which he wasn't supposed to have and by driving while he's adjudicated as a habitual traffic violator,” said Deputy Prosecutor Jerry Beam after Logan accepted a guilty plea. “There would have been evidence and/or testimony about his driving to the transfer station and also to the fact that he consumed alcoholic beverages at the Americus Pizza King.” "

FULL STORY: Man admits to driving to dump on day Delphi teens were found murdered on his property - WXIN

 

[GrandmaBear]

Menacing. No shame.

 

[Tresir]

Here is another article about the hearing.

https://cbs4indy.com/indiana-news/judge-approves-transfer-of-richard-allen-to-county-jail-new-details-about-delphi-murders-released/

DELPHI, Ind. — For a year and nine months, accused Delphi double killer Richard Allen has languished inside two state prisons, locked in solitary confinement, officials said, for his own safety, while awaiting trial for the killings of Abby Williams and Libby German near the Monon High Bridge in Carroll County in 2017.

At the end of three days of marathon pretrial hearings in a Delphi courtroom, Judge Fran Gull ruled affirmatively on the first motion to be heard this week. Allen’s defense team asked that he be moved from the custody of the Indiana Department of Correction back to the responsibility of Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett.

Liggett led the five-and-a-half year investigation to put the suspected killer behind bars; Allen’s attorneys wanted him housed closer to home in anticipation of his trial this fall. Gull ultimately approved the transfer.

Safekeeping order at center of hearings​

Earlier this week Allen’s attorneys argued that their client’s “safekeeping” 200 miles away at the IDOC’s Wabash Valley Correctional Facility south of Terre Haute was hardship as his team tried to build his defense and a possible violation of the defendant’s constitutional rights.

On the witness stand Tuesday, when asked about remanding Allen back to his custody, Sheriff Liggett said, “I don’t care where he’s at. He can’t be with mine,” citing the potential danger the accused killer would experience from other inmates in the tiny Carroll County Jail.

This week, during his hearings, Allen has been housed at and transported from the Cass County Jail in Logansport, hometown of his lead defense attorney Bradley Rozzi.

The court learned the Cass County Jail would be able to accommodate Allen for the rest of his pretrial incarceration.

It was Allen’s pretrial detention that was subject of intense testimony during hearings in Carroll Circuit Court this week.

While an Indiana State Police investigator said he listened to more than 60 phone calls of Allen confessing to his alleged role in the killings of the two girls Feb. 13, 2017, outside of Delphi, an IDOC contracted psychologist testified that the accused man was suffering from a mental illness breakdown at the time of those confessions in the spring of last year due to his incarceration conditions.

Defense touts Odinism theory​

The attorneys spent two days presenting evidence to Judge Gull in an attempt to allow them to tell jurors about a potential third-party defense that would pin the murders on a group of men who practice Odinism, a pagan Nordic religion, in Carroll County.

One of those men is the father of Abby’s older boyfriend at the time of her death.

The man’s ex-wife testified that the father told her Abby was targeted by the group because one of her relatives was suspected of dating a person of color.

Dr. Dawn Perlmutter, a recognized subject matter expert in the field of ritualistic crime investigations, testified that some offshoots of Odinism are racist in nature and engage in “magical thinking” contrary to typical linear western thought, that imbues objects like sticks and locations such as wooded areas and bodies of water with supernatural powers to control human life events.

A noted author who literally wrote the book on ritualistic crime, Perlmutter said, “This crime scene is a textbook for ritualistic murder.”


She was followed to the witness stand by two retired police officers who were part of the task force assembled by Indiana State Police to investigate the Delphi killings and who testified that they were convinced a group of Vinlanders, practitioners of Odinism, from Delphi and Rushville, carried out the killings as part of a ceremony.

The prosecution countered with its own evidence that there was no evidence linking the group to the murders and that runes and blood markings on trees were simply evidence of the struggle during the killings or an attempt by the murderer to cover his tracks.

The defense team is seeking Judge Gull’s approval to bring the Odinism theory before jurors in an attempt to sow the seeds of reasonable doubt once the trial begins.

New details about murders​

Without spelling out exactly what Allen may have said in his purported confessions, Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland asked Perlmutter what her response would be if she learned that the defendant “said that the intent was a sexual assault,” and “said that the branches were there to cover the girls’ bodies,” not an example of symbolic runes as the defense argues.

As a blood spatter expert revealed details of the crime scene and the conditions of the girls’ bodies upon discovery the day after they disappeared, some persons in the courtroom, including the victims’ families, choked back tears.

Details included cutting wounds on the throats of the victims and Abby’s body found wearing Libby’s clothes.

One retired detective grew emotional on the stand as he viewed a photograph of the crime scene and said, “There’s sticks on Abby,” and, “It sucks.”

A state police detective confirmed an unspent .40 caliber handgun round was found on the ground beneath the bodies of one of the victims.

Prosecutors are expected to present expert testimony linking that round to a gun discovered in Allen’s house.

While investigators believe Abby and Libby were abducted at 2:14 p.m. on that Monday and dead within 18 minutes, the defense claims Libby’s cell phone was quiet for more than 12 hours before suddenly turning on again and receiving text messages at 4:30 the next morning, some seven hours before the bodies were discovered in a wooded area along Deer Creek.

The defense has sought to pin the blame for the killings on the father of Abby’s boyfriend, arguing the man claimed he was working out at a fitness center in Logansport at 2 a.m., twelve hours after the girls vanished, but was in reality attending to the moving of the bodies in Carroll County.

While the defense and the prosecutor trotted out bits and pieces of evidence that expected to be raised at trial in October, Judge Gull took several motions under advisement.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think Gull will likely have a hearing just for the F motions. They could even bring in BH and PW to answer these ridiculous accusations. I mean how did they even get there and leave without being seen? Teleportation? That is the way to deal with it so that time at trial will not be wasted on it.

Regarding RL, I came across this article that explains his whereabouts that day and confirms he was not a suspect.

Man admits to driving to dump on day Delphi teens were found murdered on his property

DELPHI, Ind. -- (WXIN) -- Ron Logan admitted to a Carroll County judge that he violated probation in late February by driving to a county dumpsite on the day two young Delphi girls were found murdered on his land.

truecrimenews.com

If you get a chance, watch the Nancy Grace one I just put up. I am still watching it. You will find it worth it imo. Nice to hear who RA really is imo. And calling things like they are. And they think, she and a few, that the P should LET the defense have the O thing. I was starting to think the same...

Libby's phone is touched on and more where I've heard little about that in these days of hearings from news.

I know RL did not do this and I believe they confirmed he is not a suspect. Lol emu should read that, not me.

Yeah either news which I've not been ALL that impressed with has not shared whether the other motions were heard OR if they will be scheduled for another time.

Read the few comments under Nancy's (it is pretty recent) and the one about cameras and Gull is a good one worth reading. A few idiots in there though, defense trolls imo or people that fall hook, line and sinker.

 

[GrandmaBear]

On another note totally, if anyone actually watches instead of just listening to Nancy's show, I am seeing a TON of pictures of the girls I have never seen before. I love that. TONS.

Victim and family rights have gone by the wayside if indeed there ever really were that many. I know. The stupid things we could NOT do versus what the other side could do was maddening.

 

[GrandmaBear]

OMG. Laughing out loud. Nancy says it is this and that, Odinists mixed with white supremacists, and some other dude did it and they put it all in a blender and then take what comes out and use it LOL. I am getting to where I think the defense should be allowed this ridiculous defense because I think it will backfire.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Many of them at various times on different things throughout the show talk of how the defense needs to pick ONE thing or ONE reason re this or re that and STICK with it. No sh*t lol.

You know, re the glaring, did he has some things towards Libby's grandma or family...? Or Libby? I mean no real reason to think that, just wondering. I mean from what we do know Libby was probably treated worse... NOT that both weren't because they were.

Of course anything with an evil POS like this may be a show and intended to divert. Like maybe that is what he told his wife and mom as his motive (rather than a worse one) so he is trying to make it look that way as we know they were likely there too. Haven't heard that but they have been there before...

In what did I watch this morning one of the last couple, that an empty courtroom was shown and is that the courtroom here? Because there was no split or aisle between seats. Just several rows of one length all next to each other with no split for one side and the other. That would be awful imo and is a terrible set up.