Found an additional source re Day 3 of hearing.
From the link -
CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. (WANE) – Delphi murder hearings continued into a third day Thursday, unveiling new details of the case including that the girls’ throats were slit and Judge Gull’s motions to vacate the safekeeping order.
Attorneys wrapped the arguments from yesterday’s motions this morning to suppress comments that Allen had made when he was in the Westville Correctional Facility.
Allen was sitting quietly at the table with his defense attorneys. Occasionally, he would put his right hand on his head and eyes. He frowned and scoffed a few times when the prosecution was making their final arguments.
Delphi murders: Former warden testifies about Allen’s alleged confession in day 2 of hearings
The rest of the morning focused on testimony from an expert in Odinism and ritualistic killings. The defense is trying to link the killings of the girls to Odinism and third-party suspects.
Expert speaks on ritualistic killing
Dawn Perlmutter, an expert on ritualist symbols and killings took the stand on Day 3 of the trial. She testified there were 7 indicators of a ritualistic killing including:
- The place of the killing was outdoors.
- February 14 is a sunup to sundown Odinistic sacrificial holiday
- The symbolism of the sticks and body positions were consistent with Odinistic Runes
- Body positioning
- Atypical blood pattern
Other indicators included that the cause of death according to Perlmutter was that the girls’ throats were slit with a sharp object. Perlmutter also said that the murder weapon, a ceremonial knife was a part of the case, but the official weapon is not known in the case.
“In my opinion, this was a textbook ritual murder. It has all the elements listed there,” Perlmutter testified. Perlmutter also testified that she was positive that the sticks were placed in a ritualistic manner and not with the intention of covering up or hiding the body.
When asked by the prosecution, “If the defendant made a statement that the branches were there and he tried to cover the bodies with them, would that change your mind,” Perlnutter said no.
Prosecutor McClure noted that Perlmutter was paid to testify and has no official blood splatter training.
The prosecutor also pointed out that Perlmutter went on CourtTV and said that the killing was a ritual killing last November. But she testified today she did not see any evidence or any crime scene photos until this April. The prosecutor pointed out she made the determination that Libby and Abby were ritualistically killed on CourtTV before seeing evidence in the case.
Previously Richard Allen was linked to the case through
the shell of one unfired round of .40 ammunition. In the probable cause affidavit used to bring murder charges against Allen, the Indiana State Police state the round was found “
between the bodies of Victim 1 and Victim 2 was forensically determined to have been cycled through Richard Allen’s Sig Sauer Model P226.”
During day three, the defense showed crime scene photos to the expert and the judge. The photos were not facing out toward the audience. Attorneys talked in detail about the position of the girls’ bodies and sticks put on top of them.
A big part of Thursday’s argument was whether blood found on a tree was painted on as a ritual symbol or not. A blood expert said it was the result of a bloody hand on a tree, not a painted symbol.
The defense has previously tried to connect Brad Holder and several others to the killings saying it was an Odinistic ritual. Brad Holder’s ex-wife testified in court, that the god Odin protects children and Odinists wouldn’t hurt kids. She also testified, describing that Holder had a fight with a friend about a ritual in the woods by the water that went wrong.
The defense tried to link several different people to the killings through Odinism, but the prosecution argued that there is, no “direct evidence” that is admissible in a trial to demonstrate that.
Thursday’s Motion
On the third day of the case, Judge Fran Gull granted the motion to vacate the safekeeping order, meaning that Richard Allen will not be going back to the Wabash Valley Correctional facility within the Department of Corrections. Allen will now be in the custody of the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department.
Sheriff Tony Liggett told WANE 15 that he would not say whether Allen would be held in Carroll County or in the Cass County Jail, which is where he had been staying during the hearing this week.
Under the safekeeping order, Allen had to be in solitary confinement which the Carroll County Jail cannot accommodate. Now that the safekeeping order is lifted Sheriff Liggett said that Allen does not necessarily have to be in a cell by himself and behavior dictates where someone is housed.
When Judge Gull removed the safekeeping order Allen gave a visible sigh of relief in the courtroom.
All other motions are still under consideration by Judge Gull, including the state wanting the defense to be prohibited from mentioning Odinism and a list of third-party suspects in the trial. Gull did not give a timeline for a ruling, but lots of evidence was presented by both sides, giving her much to review.
Video above shows Richard Allen being escorted out of the courthouse.
Thursday’s trial brought many emotional moments.
A former Indiana State Police Detective cried on the stand after a picture of the girls at the crime scene was shown to him. When he was asked to identify the scene, he broke down saying, “it’s tough, it sucks.”
The families of Abby and Libby also got emotional during the testimony of a blood pattern expert. The expert graphically described pools of blood, all from Libby, and how it indicated that she was still moving after the cuts were made to her neck.
After 12 hours in court Thursday, there appeared to be an issue with the attorneys at the Judge’s bench. It is unclear exactly what that disagreement was, but it was put on the record that they would discuss it later.
Is this everything in the video or is there more and I need to watch it?
I've mentioned it before but will say again it is a huge discredit to their expert that she TESTIFIED that she never saw any crime scene photos until APRIL BUT stated this was a ritual killing on Court TV in NOVEMBER. That was a great trap by the prosecutor in my opinion. So the defense went after an expert seen on Court TV about the case who had already said that. Interesting... This is going to be a real problem with the jury imo.
I guess she can say she made such a determination of almost no info but Valentine's Day being some O thing and the fact it was outdoors. Big deal.
In fact the D has real problems here that don't match these things. Their witness, the ex wife, said Os DON'T KILL CHILDREN.
And THEN the defense is trying to claim the girls did not die when they did and my guess is from all said around this subject (but again far from perfect reporting) that that reason is because of Libby's phone coming on at 4 or something the next morning. WELL their EXPERT says the O day on Feb 14th is form sunrise to sundown, this was NOT then in that period of time but the D's own words. And yet their expert ignores this and other things as well.
They have had so many contradictions throughout all they've done it is pretty ridiculous and it makes their chances here pretty nil I think. Take a look at Scott's if you get a chance, he doesn't see enough cause for them to be allowed the O theory. He had a lot interesting to say imo but it wasn't long, just the first segment of many cases in his show.
I wonder if Gull will put out some decisions as they come or just wait until she has them all completed and then issue them all.
Permutter (what a name) said the weapon is unknown and I have wondered if the detective who said it was a box cutter was referring to RA saying it was. If so, reporters failed again here. Now if it were Nate, he'd be explaining it and answering questions every single night. Not so with any of these.
RA may want to watch his behavior as to the scoffing and such. NO JUDGE tolerates such generally. From ANYONE. Think Lori's flipping behavior in many hearings and smirkiness, etc. It won't necessarily be said in a public way, sometimes it is right to the defendant or whoever or their attorney to control their client, otherwise, said privately or the atty themselves admonishes their client. We can be these two won't.
He breathed a sigh of relief about the safekeeping order being vacated. RA. A "visual" one, whatever that is. I hope he realizes he is not not under any measures to keep him safe as it was said he is now in the gen pop isn't he? I saw that somewhere earlier. And we know somewhere fairly local because it was also about family and attys being able to see him more easily without as much travel and so on. If anything happens to him, I know where I am going to place the blame.
But also, does he realize he will be here no longer than maybe two months, maybe three? Once convicted he goes back to some serious high security prison.
Gull is covered, as is the P, and as is the sheriff. They have said many, many times the reasons for keeping him where he was. She gave in finally and again if ANYTHING happens to him here or they complain about anything or have some new stories of things going on to explain something, then it will be squarely on the D imo. I know I won't listen to anything else. In the meantime at least that one is off the table.
You know I had been thinking maybe Gull should allow them their defense but Scott changed my mind back and it surprised me coming from him. They just don't have enough to make it a total defense or it to be allowed in. Remember when they said and RA has never been an O nor associates with any, they had to say that because they cannot remove him or his bullet. And they can't prove that either. How?
The interesting thing about moving him more local and the D wanting it is all these Os are local. And they never could relate the guards to the four men they NAMED AND ACCUSED. It is all a house of cards and hearsay.
I could say a lot more about the D and the things that they almost contradict themselves on or make things not fit that they say and then something else they do to explain something else makes the other thing they said not fit. It's mind numbing.
But that's what you have when the facts are not on your side and you have to find some way out of a HUGE case the P has and your client confessed and all of that on top of it.
I don't think they deserve kudos for it as they always should have been doing their job but hey they finally did the hearings, tried to be real lawyers I suppose, and do their job for once, had an expert and some witnesses and so on. Still clearly have not reviewed everything but hey didn't whine for another postponement.
I suspect they get some pushback from RA and family too, hey don't YOU delay this again, be ready with all you do have and you better have your part done and prepared. Just guessing. I'd sure be unhappy about such.
And then of course they blame such on the P to the family and the court and everyone else.
But anyhow...
I HOPE they are prepared to present a defense in October one way or another. Have they prepared an ALTERNATE defense to the O thing in case it is necessary? I seriously doubt it. From all we've seen, there is no reason to think they have.
I was barely with work clothes off by 10 and have to back in about 9 hours from then, to work. No way going to get sleep of more than a couple of hours on this in that short length of time. Have things to do when I get home, things to do before I go back and absolutely have to have some down time. On top of it, I got an offer on my home just as I was about to get out of my car and head into work this morning. Another low-ball but interested. With a response needed by midnight, at least that is what the put in offers, it is like you know, 24 hours. Well that's really going to work when I am right on the two shifts I just described. I certainly can't fit in a talk with my realtor. A few texts on break to verbally tell their agent I can't respond today, asked what the offer terms were, and such. So on. Then I thought I told him to counter but he didn't think I had actually said go ahead with it so he didn't so after work tonight, texted him near ten to see if he countered. And sigh, so that is going to be probably on the plate tomorrow with no sleep, no time straight back to work.
Had a big surprise, I think so did she when I ran into my property manager at work today. She was buying tables and chairs. I've never shared with her where I work until recently and have never encountered her there in the getting close to two years I've been there. I was startled and I think so was she. I asked her if the darned washing machine situation is fixed before I have to do such I another two days here again on my days off. She said it was lol.
She was actually working. She was buying chairs and tables for "National Night Out' which I always seem to be working during when they do it in the parking lot here. Hey I'd really light to talk to LE and the FD about those years of fire alarms and false alarms.... LOL. They SEEM to have STOPPED. Finally, after seriously, years.
She truly is I have said before the saving grace around here. I can't always reach her either and I don't EVEN go looking for them, it is always over some stupid thing they do or cause if I need to.
Anyhow, I am sidetracking. But I had a good and worthwhile conversation with her last week on a day off again to handle what they pushed but it was worth it.
Yes, sidetracking, could go on, but enough of that.
Just no time so packing it in and not going to be much downtime so just talking to try to relax some before back for more. And I for one need downtime after work and need it before work big time, I can cut it and make it and get more than a couple of hours sleep maybe but then I haven't destressd either and so I have to pick and choose.
Just one more very early day to get through but then have shopping just to survive at all, me and the boys. Have to plan that around shifts too ahead of time for necessities.
And now the offer stuff going on again into the next two days after tomorrow off as I can hardly even respond or deal with it during the work week. No one else's hours are the same for one. Realtors, banks, etc.
So back to the point, SORRY, should I watch this? Is there more in it than what you posted in print? Not a lot of time at the moment but will if worthwhile at some point.
en.wikipedia.org
www.crimewatchers.net
