LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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They don't have body temperature of the girls at the scene because all we've heard so far is they didn't take it.

However, we have now heard the ground was saturated with blood so they obviously were attacked and bled out where they were found. I remember at some point LE saying they may have been moved. Not so.
A lot of this was yesterday before more today but the guy said that the D went at, and he was LE, not an ME, etc. and wasn't his job, but he said they aren't going to do a rectal thermometer, because they don't, the ME needs bodies untouched, and as we know SA exams were done. The D, I forget which one but B or R then asked about armpit, etc. Again asking the wrong guy really. Now we are past a lot of this with testimony from the ones that would know more today, right? I saw a BIT at lunch, not much. Wasn't the pathologist or someone on?

I'm behind, of course, but did see a bit today.

I agree too with your second sentence. They were killed right there. And yes, bled out. These details and this trial have to be even more excruciating for the families. It sure is breaking through for me and I can get too where it is about the case and one doesn't get immune but it becomes about justice, and doesn't it always become about the accused perp?

I used to leave open some other possibilities but most have been closed out for me.. For awhile now. I think he did it, and I think he did it alone. And have for some time.
 
Even if there were flies in February, which i highly doubt, the bodies were not there long enough to get fly blown.

This link explains body temperature drop and insect stages. The absolute longest the girls could have been at the CS before discovery of their bodies was 22 hours only.


Algor mortis​


Algor mortis (from Latin algor 'coldness' and mortis 'of death'), the third stage of death, is the change in body temperature post mortem, until the ambient temperature is matched. This is generally a steady decline, although if the ambient temperature is above the body temperature (such as in a hot desert), the change in temperature will be positive, as the (relatively) cooler body equalizes with the warmer environment. External factors can have a significant influence.

Timeline of postmortem changes, with algor mortis represented by red temperature line
The term was first used by Bennet Dowler in 1849.<a href="Algor mortis - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> The first published measurements of the intervals of temperature after death were done by John Davy in 1839.<a href="Algor mortis - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a><a href="Algor mortis - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>
Yeah, they aren't an issue. I brought it up because it came up in Tom's and I'd seen no coverage of this line of questioning in anything I read and up til tonight I think I'd read every single link here. Not sure how far I will get tonight.

I guess too the point is that there are a ton of questions that are being asked that are not covered in news articles, by the D, by the P, in cross, etc. Man if I didn't work and since we can't watch it, I know who I'd be dialed into so far as the better news reports here and then I'd add Tom as my two must go tos.. That's what I'd be doing each day. And then maybe add if time looking at other things provided or reported or links.

Even though not televised or aired/live, man I wish I had just the month off because over a few days it is easy to narrow down I think what gives both kinds of the best coverage... Or which ones... Just can't keep up though so far in doing even that. Tomorrow off but have to get all necessary things done and then Friday have plans with family and then back to work again.

So I KNOW I'\m not going to see all of Tom's, etc. at minimum. And then more will go on when I'm gone on Friday as well.

And yet each day I have had a bit of an overview of the day but not the detail he gives, etc. that press doesn't.
 
The thing is that most of the witnesses were the three young girls and he himself admits to seeing them so they definitely saw him. When I was a teenager, I could not judge people's ages at all so i think that them saying 20 - 30 is a young persons guess. They definitely saw him, which gives us his arrival time. Then his stock ticker should give the approx time he was on the bridge, which we know was a similar time to when the witness saw him on the bridge, then she passed Abby and Libby very shortly afterwards. That combined with the bullet match to his gun plus the confessions should seal it IMO.
I'm not convinced they have his phone records from that many years ago. I sure hope they do, and the P as we know has kept all close to the vest and there is a LOT to come yet, but there's been no hint of if they do. I know they lucked out in LISK with being able to recover a lot from years before and both investigations share similarities--in LISK the administration and Burke back when FAILED to do their job at minimum, and in Delphi, Allen was not followed up on for how many years, tip goes lost or whatever.

it's just hard to say until we get a bombshell moment with such or the keepsake bullet, etc., etc. what they have. Or IF they could recover any of his phone records or activity particularly...

And even re other things like phone locations, LISK was in Long Island, Manhattan--NY where towers probably abounded versus Delphi... And there were probably key providers and bigger ones, hard to say. I know when I got my first cell phone and the next one or two after, in our area, bigger by 3 times probably than Delphi but fairy mostly rural part of the state, I don't think there were any choices but one provider. Don't know that any of this means anything but there's been no HINT they have any of his records but they also would not have to share such with the public, they've shared little.

And that brings me to this part. SOMETHING or MANY things they have worried RA big time, BIG TIME. And his attys... It could be his phone records, it could be DNA on something at his house, all the talk has always been around HIS and HIS at the scene, even back in the F memo and O filings, etc... Or what IF a piece of clothing was found in their search of his home and property... Pictures...?

There is so much to come yet... Or the match of the keepsake bullet as you mentioned... The D avoids saying this or that doesn't exist but have always tried to make it where THIS doesn't exist... I guess we will see.

MOST of what I have been waiting for has not even come close to coming yet... How about just RA's interviews...?? And I'd still HOPE any interview his wife gave will be admitted as she'd have done so willingly even if she invokes spousal privilege now. I don't see any reporter even wondering about that or trying to get answers on it.

I hope they have the phone records of RA but I'm not counting on it, I give it a 50/50.
 
The thing is that most of the witnesses were the three young girls and he himself admits to seeing them so they definitely saw him. When I was a teenager, I could not judge people's ages at all so i think that them saying 20 - 30 is a young persons guess. They definitely saw him, which gives us his arrival time. Then his stock ticker should give the approx time he was on the bridge, which we know was a similar time to when the witness saw him on the bridge, then she passed Abby and Libby very shortly afterwards. That combined with the bullet match to his gun plus the confessions should seal it IMO.
Oh there's enough to seal it IMO, always has been. However, I think there's more. Could be wrong but waiting to see... More than what we knew had RA panicked and the defense as well is what I base that on...
 
I realize this will be going back probably for most, but Tom also has all the questions pretty much asked of the two eyewitnesses yesterday. And that article above by the guy saying they described back when all that RA is not is very misleading. Both witnesses did not say all those things. Whatsoever. And I just heard one thing that is a defense attorney doing what they always do and that's putting words in the witnesse's mouth and so the jury thinks it is truth as to what they said... The younger one never said any such thing on a few of the things and throughout, we've never heard that she said such. And she said she recalls saying no such thing. He is doing what they do and trying to make it seem as she did. It's a very common trick. Extremely common, and is almost like the D testifying to something as fact so the jury thinks it is. I should switch to tonight's video but I don't want to because huge things are being missed here or interpreted incorrectly or intentionally incorrectly by some media.

Here's another one it is as if both witnesses, the younger and the older yesterday in that little list of everytihing RA is not said exactly the same list of things and they did not. How does the younger one believe him young but then describe him as wrinkly faced, etc...?? The reporter is COMBINING as if both said all these things. And the D is putting words in the mouth as if fact. Very common tactic. Then why did you say this to LE back then. Well I didn't, then I'm pretty sure I didn't... Then the jury thinks what the D wants themt to think or hopes they do.

I'm telling you this is NOT being interpreted correctly or covered well. I want to move on to today's but Tom has so much more yesterday than ANYTHING I read and I read it all here. Traditional news just can't do the same for many reasons including more things to cover, can't do a show and go on as long as they want or need to to cover every last thing and so on.

And don't get me wrong, Tom isn't picking up on all either and is no attorney and in fact he's kind of amazed at what goes on in court but he is recounting what was asked and said. And thank God the jury is hearing It all and not counting on traditional news outlets to take the key points and get them right...

I'm just cautioning that in this one there is no choice but in others when all you do is take that coverage to think you know what is really happening and watch NO testimony when you have a moment, you are not getting anywhere near the full or correct picture. I don't get time as all know as I whine all the time about it but like in Daybell, I DID go watch Chad's kids and a few key others I wanted to see, Colby for one.

I actually watched some of, what no one would believe, testimony of a few in Read and what I saw in posts and media was very selective and as if they were not watching the same thing.

All I'm saying is he has so many questions and answers and he may not even think they are huge the difference, haven't gotten that far yet or to CROSS even, but it is glaring that the coverage is not getting it right. And that some reporters are intentionally skewing. So did he just have dirty blond hair or curly brown hair? Did they both say both of those things... Just one example of many... Boh thought him young but he was said to have a wrinkly face and something else that would indicate she thought him older but maybe being young, she thinks 30 is old. I can give examples from my childhood and a remark by one of my daughters to my mom too as to they think anyone over 21 is OLD.

I heard someone my age the other day asking one of the young managers how old her dad is now, he just had had a birthday and she was like he's really getting old and one can tell. And she (the one my age) said to her actually at this point how old is he now? And she said man he's got to be 48... I almost burst out laughing. So how OLD does she think myself and this other one asking her are?? Ancient. We are just over 60.

Just saying, youth see it different BUT I'm no sure she ever called him young, THEY said that to her and if you listen to Tom recite the questions and answers, he described him as wrinkly in her years ago description and older...

I may quit even the ones I was thinking were some pretty good articles.

And all I'm saying is don't think just following those things a true picture is being given, there's TONS of questions and answers that are not even touched on, going ONS, objections, and more.
 
I;'d love to share the comments under yesterday's video. Can't be copied though.

One said she'd love to hear Tom yell in the courtroom, that's WRONG. As he knows it isn't fact or what was said...

That's what the D is doing... And some reporters aren't much better...

Fact. You were never in Dodge. Ever.

Defense asks you how come you didn't stop to visit your mom while you were in Dodge?

Witness is like what? Answer the question please. Yes or no, or just the question, no explaining.

What just happened here? Now the jury if not wise to this D **** of all D attys has been basically TOLD by the D the witness WAS in DODGE and now they can assume her mother LIVES in Dodge...

There are those that probably think this is clever. I think it is disgusting and should never occur. And I think it assumes stupidity of he average juror and witness. And of reporters who can't see it OR just want the sensational and assumes stupidity of the public as well.

I'd better give it a break. And apologies. I'd hoped to at least catch up here. I know a bit, something about box cutter and know the pathologist was up but I don't know any of it in context. I'd hoped to catch up here and only be maybe a day behind on Tom but not going to happen. I think I better go look for something light right now, some cooking, as when I hear all that has not been covered, it is just irritating me to no end. Long week, tired and probably wrong time.

I do though want say news is not even coming close to all happening or covering it all. Just be aware of that.
 
Personally I think this is overboard and unnecssary. People want to see the trial, no one is trying to kill anyone. People who are most upset in trials are the victims' families and they are all there and have never caused an problems, etc.

I'm not sure but I'm thinking no.

It sure seems like they are going out of their way to ensure nobody can do a closer look at this case. No cameras. Turning down a lot of what the defense wants to present, and keeping things from the public eye. Hopefully, someone will get the stuff from a FOIA.

The sticks placed over the bodies are not trying to hide the bodies. If so, it would have to be an incredible idiot to do it that way.
 
Curious about what you all watched read but going to have to skip the link for now. I've seen rainbows at times in life that seem they were meant to be and very significant. Was there something like that? Meaning a sign from the girls or for the girls? Please fill me in on it. I've also seen skies clear so many times at the very right moment...
Look at the pic of the building in post # 8117. It has a rainbow over the top of it.
 
Look at the pic of the building in post # 8117. It has a rainbow over the top of it.
Okay. THANK YOU. I went back and did that.

I am not caught up and jumped to the newest page here and last posts.

Not sure I will get caught up.

I was not expecting it but beyond irritated last night. What I am hearing from full coverage is not matching the reporting. At all.
 
As far as rainbows and things like that, I've seen a ton of things in my life re loss and and timing... Skies clearing at that very moment. Rainbows. Signs. Many a time. Skies clearing and the sun coming out is one I've said to people and we've noted more times than one can count. I don't care if February, June, October, etc...
 
It sure seems like they are going out of their way to ensure nobody can do a closer look at this case. No cameras. Turning down a lot of what the defense wants to present, and keeping things from the public eye. Hopefully, someone will get the stuff from a FOIA.

The sticks placed over the bodies are not trying to hide the bodies. If so, it would have to be an incredible idiot to do it that way.
You know, I can see what you are saying and understand it. I don't agree with most of what defense wanted to present, there is a very high standard to meet for third party defense, etc. and they simply don't have anything. Even getting confessions thrown out, they probably could have with some HAD they done their job and not tried to blanket them all as they've tried to do with everything.

HOWEVER, the lack of cameras and not even archaic recording devices like a voice recorder with no internet capability is BEYOND ridiculous and I'd agree on that one. Even if it is just playing it ultra safe it is NOT a GOOD LOOK and nothing can even be shown for one side or the other as to what REALLY was said. Add to that that viewers often can't hear the questions or answers in the courtroom...

Also, though, please understand that whatever you are watching and where you are getting anything is not something to count on either. I know I sound like I go on about him and he sure is not perfect but Tom has no horse in this race. And he is covering every question and answer asked that there is and news is NOT doing any such thing. Not even CLOSE to it. I got irritated earlier as I could not believe how lacking it was and some of what it is is entirely trying to bias. I even said the other night and commented on some good reporting but it still is NOT even CLOSE to a play by play... Imagine missing 7/8 of the game!

Unless we are watching testimony and the actual every moment of a trial ourselves, and don't get me wrong, I have to count on summaries as I don't have time when they are televised, recorded or live, but never assume you are getting the full picture.

There's a reason juries aren't to watch this stupid sh*t being put out there by some and they are seeing it all, every question, every answer, demenaor and every ruling.

As far as the sticks, I'm not even going to go there to her than to say so what is your point? And why is it not RA and how do you remove him, asked many a time in the past to you? He didn't complete what he wanted to do.

I was unable last night to even try to catch up but saw some things here and there yesterday. I find the "incisions" interesting. So it sounds like this was no just random slashing... Even maybe when interrupted or felt rushed...

This was planned and fantasized.

Hey, I don't like Gull's decision either re coverage but I can tell you you are NOT getting the full questions and answers that are really going on in the courtroom. It's just like the leaks some of this coverage. And some is meant to be good coverage but it's traditional news, come on. They are politics and as the one said, tons of other things to cover, they are not about crime. Heck they don't even get half of the courtroom process. Etc.
 
NSFW Autopsy findings in Delphi murders trial shocks jury

Article from the dailymail.com site contains graphic word descriptions of the girls' fatal injuries as described to the jury today. Photos were shown to the jury, including autopsy photos, but are not in the article. Photos in the article are Bridge Guy video, the accused, and several of Abby and Libby that we have seen before where they are smiling at the camera.
Okay.... Calming or trying to...

I am working backwards as I did not get anywhere close to caught up on yesterday. On first entry into this link and read I was very upset at the sensationalism and graphic detail which I didn't expect to this extent. I almost bailed out of it. But I read it all. And it's probably more detail and accurate than many things I've read. It's still well, hitting and my thoughts are overrun by what the girls families face, are hearing and more.

Still needing to take a minute and I hate to but may have to go back to read but the man who did this, who I firmly believe to be RA, purposely made it a slow death...

God. These poor families. I have details I'll never share that I have to force out of my head when they come in because there would be no functioning in life. They have them, OMG do they EVER have them and are always going to.

While I find this sensational, it probably is a truer account of trial than most of what we are reading in most cases/reporting. I need to take a moment and go back and read it again because it was shocking and awful and I did not expect this amount of detail or graphicness. At all.
 
the parts about one man putting a hand over his mouth and other reactions definitely are sensational and awful and probably true. and it's what turned me off really quickly to where I almost quit reading... and thought of the families... and no, not of KA or RA. The girls' families.
 
It sure seems like they are going out of their way to ensure nobody can do a closer look at this case. No cameras. Turning down a lot of what the defense wants to present, and keeping things from the public eye. Hopefully, someone will get the stuff from a FOIA.

The sticks placed over the bodies are not trying to hide the bodies. If so, it would have to be an incredible idiot to do it that way.
RA is an incredible idiot to think he could get away with this. The court is just attempting to damp down any sensationalism. Its a very hard job. I would be surprised if the trial is not being video recorded for any appeal or for future use.
 
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@Tresir it also says in here the phone that RA used in 2017 was not found at his house. See how much most reporting is missing?

Now while that doesn't mean they couldn't get any phone records, I'm guessing they don't have much that way like seeing him looking at his stock ticker, pings as to where he was, etc. Man thank God he and Kathy had stocks... Sorry to all, couldn't help he sarcasm... He had stocks but had no clue what an atty for a murder charge or two or more would cost...

I am going to be really messed up on sleep, etc. but am wide awake now at the wrong time. Should go to bed but now not tired one bit...
 
RA is an incredible idiot to think he could get away with this. The court is just attempting to damp down any sensationalism. Its a very hard job. I would not be surprised if the trial is not being video recorded for any appeal or for future use.
RA is a LISK or similar. Seriously. He isn't who some feel him to be, just some clueless average man... Being wrongly accused. And I've said this way back when. Not just now...
 
this part is ridiculous. but let's remember, it is "news".

But while the state had no explanation the defense has forwarded one. Their theory is that Libby and Abby were moved, in a vehicle, and taken out of range of the nearest cell tower and only returned there in the early hours of the morning to be murdered and dumped at which time the cell phone reconnected to the network.

I'm not impressed that the state has no explanation and cecil is it? Doesn't. but if I had time to listen to Tom and catch up, I'd guess there's a lot more to this and it's not spot on.

But even if it is the defense thing is ludicrous. so yeah someone probably moved them uh huh, and even if true probably RA, so? And purposely taken out of range of any cell tower? Duh, that's ridiculous. And then brought back to that very place to be cut, killed and to bleed out.

I mean COME ON. Can anyone get on board with that? I sure can't. So did RA drive or make one of the girls, with no license, drive...? Little joy ride or some such?

The State however should have been more prepared than this but then I'm finding that coverage is not very good as to what each side is really asking, doing, etc. nor on any of it. I wish I could just catch up on Tom who pretty much is covering every question and response.

It likely isn't going to happen but I will say this, even if it is AFTER this trial is over, I WILL. It wouldn't be the first time I watched all after something was concluded.

A TON is being missed here. However, even though this article is graphic and sensational, they do say a few things others don't.
 
NSFW Autopsy findings in Delphi murders trial shocks jury

Article from the dailymail.com site contains graphic word descriptions of the girls' fatal injuries as described to the jury today. Photos were shown to the jury, including autopsy photos, but are not in the article. Photos in the article are Bridge Guy video, the accused, and several of Abby and Libby that we have seen before where they are smiling at the camera.
They are reporting that RA is "barely 5 feet" ???? What a load of bunkum. He is 5 feet 5 inches in his most recent mugshot. This just makes me mad.
 
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this part is ridiculous. but let's remember, it is "news".

But while the state had no explanation the defense has forwarded one. Their theory is that Libby and Abby were moved, in a vehicle, and taken out of range of the nearest cell tower and only returned there in the early hours of the morning to be murdered and dumped at which time the cell phone reconnected to the network.

I'm not impressed that the state has no explanation and cecil is it? Doesn't. but if I had time to listen to Tom and catch up, I'd guess there's a lot more to this and it's not spot on.

But even if it is the defense thing is ludicrous. so yeah someone probably moved them uh huh, and even if true probably RA, so? And purposely taken out of range of any cell tower? Duh, that's ridiculous. And then brought back to that very place to be cut, killed and to bleed out.

I mean COME ON. Can anyone get on board with that? I sure can't. So did RA drive or make one of the girls, with no license, drive...? Little joy ride or some such?

The State however should have been more prepared than this but then I'm finding that coverage is not very good as to what each side is really asking, doing, etc. nor on any of it. I wish I could just catch up on Tom who pretty much is covering every question and response.

It likely isn't going to happen but I will say this, even if it is AFTER this trial is over, I WILL. It wouldn't be the first time I watched all after something was concluded.

A TON is being missed here. However, even though this article is graphic and sensational, they do say a few things others don't.
In one of the things i read and/or was posted it shows an analysis of the phone and it appears that the phone received 15 texts which was when the phone registered that 4.33 a.m. update. It was very informative.

ETA it is post #8192 from Imamazed if anyone has missed it.
 
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