LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[GrandmaBear]

Sorry if these details have already been posted. I haven't fully read all of the links and documents yet.

Delphi murders: Knife likely used in killing of 2 girls on hiking trail, docs reveal

Court documents unsealed Wednesday reveal investigators believe a knife was used in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana.

www.foxnews.com

Delphi murders: Knife likely used in killing of 2 girls on hiking trail, docs reveal​

Investigators believe Richard Allen used a "sharp object" to kill Liberty "Libby" German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, Feb. 14, 2017, while the two teen girls were walking on a popular hiking trail in Delphi, court documents unsealed Wednesday revealed.

Investigators initially questioned Allen that same year after witnesses and security footage tied him and his vehicle to the crime scene.


A pair of underwear and a sock appeared to be missing from the crime scene when police arrived. Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone, which had a 43-second video showing Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Libby while a man wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. The man can be heard ordering the girls "down the hill," according to an affidavit released Wednesday.

Libby captured the video at 2:13 p.m., less than 25 minutes after she and Abigail's family members dropped them off at the trail.


Based on their investigation, authorities "believe a firearm was involved in the abduction and murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German because an unspent .40-caliber round was found between the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

Investigators also "believe a knife was used in the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

A medical examiner determined the girls died by homicide and had wounds caused by a "sharp object," court documents state.


Five years later, on Oct. 13, 2022, investigators again interviewed Allen and his wife, Kathy Allen. During that interview, Allen confirmed he had been wearing "blue jeans, and blue or black Carhart jacket with hood and that he was wearing head covering" when he was on the trail that day.

Authorities said Allen's description of his clothing that day and items that were later recovered from his home "match the description of the man seen on the bridge from the video taken by Liberty German's phone. "

Investigators executed a search warrant at the Allens' home in Delphi Oct. 13, 2022, and they recovered a blue Carhartt jacket, a SIG Sauer P226 .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun and a .40-caliber S&W cartridge in a "wooden keepsake box" from a dresser between two closets in Allen's bedroom.

The handgun recovered at Allen's home was consistent with the .40-caliber unspent bullet police located at the site of the murders in 2017.

is it just me or does calling it a sharp "object" seem odd. I would expect sharp instrument. Am I putting too much into it thinking they don't mean a knife or something on that order? Am I making too much of words? Every time I read object it bothers me for some reason.

This doesn't seem too specific on cause of death, etc. What I mean is I guess no mention that a stab to the heart killed or slicing the neck did or just blood loss did, etc. I hate saying any of these awful thoughts but I just mean this is quite basic and vague. I'm sure it will get more specific at trial though.

Not a lot about what he put the girls through either and I suspect that's going to make him look like a sick pedo. I think some think it was just the thrill of the kill which may have been a large component but I don't think it is all of it. Jmo.

I was surprised to hear the phone was found under Libby. I thought it was found somewhere like on the edge of the trail just off the path or something. It is hard to imagine that if there was any fight or anything done to Libby that the phone would still be in her hands or have went down with her, etc. or he wouldn't have seen it at some point. But then also isn't or wasn't it said or surmised the bodies were staged or posed or something...? And yet the phone was there. Hmm.

Why did I have the impression Allen went in on his own? This says this:

Investigators initially questioned Allen that same year after witnesses and security footage tied him and his vehicle to the crime scene.

WITNESSES tied him AND video footage tied his vehicle to the CRIME SCENE.

This makes it even harder to believe he could be forgot about or the info misfiled, etc. Investigators in the plural. No mention of a conservation officer, etc. WHAT is going on here? He should have been suspect numero uno and NOT forgotten about, I can't see that as even possible as plural investigators AND witnesses would have forgotten about him.

Is it POSSIBLE they've always had him in their sights and just didn't have ENOUGH...? That may be giving them too much credit though as it's basically been said it was misfiled or some such and in going through the case again, info about him was found. Did they really bungle it that badly or are they dumbing it up for some reason? Any thoughts on this?

 

[GrandmaBear]

After his calls to his mom and wife, he made no more phone calls. I also believe he didn't receive any phone calls. I have no problem believing he has true remorse, about telling his wife and mother.

I don't know if, even with a tablet, that he can receive calls can he? Prisoners shouldn't be able to and never were able to to my knowledge?

And he broke his tablet at some point, that's been said.

He may have remorse over telling the women in his life, I personally don't care if he does or not and if he does, it of course is for his own sake.

What I AM interested in is how this helps the case. Some people just don't believe he is bridge guy. I think the minority though. He was THERE, we have been through all that. I think we were all dumbfounded as we had never heard of him but now we know he was placed at the bridge by witnesses and footage way back then so nothing odd about it. The confessions are a clincher. Unless anyone truly believes the fodder that he falsely confessed due to being picked on and a mental breakdown (yeah yet you were THERE) which is really stretching things... And he didn't confess just to his wife but also his mother. Two separate calls and I wonder if on different days or not as well?

I've only heard mention of his wife in court. Not the daughter and not his parents. I find this interesting as well. I'm sure they are all suffering and broke (meaning emotionally) and I'm sorry for it but that is interesting to me. It makes me wonder if the others see him more for what he is and the wife just can't? He confessed to her numerous times. Yet she was at a hearing after that. I'm sure she isn't there to support the prosecution.

I mean maybe logistics or fear keep the daughter and his parents away or something but if you staunchly supported your adult child, that wouldn't stop you, you'd want to show it and feel people needed to see it.

There is the off chance the wife has helped LE and at their advice tried to get him to tell her the truth but there isn't any reason here to believe that that I can see. We don't even know if she was honest in the interviews of the two of them. We know little about all that honestly.

At this point what I'm most interested in is hearing the phone calls AND seeing/hearing the interview(s) of the two of them.

I feel a bit "dirty" for the interest but I have no understanding of her support for him and being in court after he confessed to her multiple times. It really makes me wonder about their relationship.

 

[Imamazed]

Is it just me or does calling it a sharp "object" seem odd. I would expect sharp instrument. Am I putting too much into it thinking they don't mean a knife or something on that order? Am I making too much of words? Every time I read object it bothers me for some reason.

I thought that was odd too. It could be the ME is calling it a sharp object because they don't know what kind of knife was used? I'm not sure but I always thought that was odd too!

He may have remorse over telling the women in his life,

I think the remorse is that he messed up telling them on the phone.

I've only heard mention of his wife in court. Not the daughter and not his parents.

I'm not sure if anyone else has been in court or not. If not it's probably because of the threats they've received and will receive if the show up in court. I don't know that its important at this point for them to show up. It will be important imo when his trial starts for the jury.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I thought that was odd too. It could be the ME is calling it a sharp object because they don't know what kind of knife was used? I'm not sure but I always thought that was odd too!

I think the remorse is that he messed up telling them on the phone.

I'm not sure if anyone else has been in court or not. If not it's probably because of the threats they've received and will receive if the show up in court. I don't know that its important at this point for them to show up. It will be important imo when his trial starts for the jury.

Yeah sharp object makes me think of more what I think of as objects and trying to think of a sharp one confounds me. I think of a sharp rock. A rock is an object. I mean a knife is too but I'd expect again something like sharp weapon or sharp instrument. Am I making too much of this? But you said too you think it odd. It could be nothing. But it also leads me to think they are confused by what it is or could be so they use the term object as they don't know whether a better known weapon or instrument, etc.? Because of the wheel well (is that what it is called?) cutting of fabric, etc. by the spare tire, I keep thinking of a tire iron but that's more something to inflict very damaging blows so then I dismiss it.

I think the same of any remorse if he has it. Just for himself.

I'm sure public opinion, threats and fear could play into their not being in court but it also could mean they do not support him and I guess that's what I wonder. A family if belief in guilt and disgusted at the actions in most cases wouldn't necessarily say so, they'd just stay out of it and away from it and not want to show support but not go out there and cause him worse either by saying so. I wonder if that's the case is all. It would be more important at trial, I agree but it is noticeable now in the sense of making one wonder. None of them, even the wife, is staunchly standing up and speaking out on his behalf though but that's not unusual given the attention on it all. I'm just admittedly curious. Probably more so about the daughter than the parents. Kids see things in their family parents don't sometimes. Often they have rose colored glasses on about a parent but just as often it is likely the opposite and they see the person one parent is where the other parent doesn't see it. And I'm sorry to think this way, I try not to, but that picture of his daughter on that bridge brings a lot of thoughts to me I won't voice here. It is a beautiful picture of her and would be in any other normal life but considering what happened on this very bridge, her clothing and her similarity to Libby is downright creepy. I don't go into that as some have out there or am set on it but it is hard to ignore. I don't mean anything about her but I DO about him and his thoughts or acts...

 

[Tresir]

I expect somewhere down the line a claim he had no idea they were recorded. I'd never believe it but I think he/they may try. I think the attorney would know that's an unbelievable claim but I wouldn't doubt Allen would claim it. This is a man who claimed he had no idea what a defense attorney would cost when he asked for an attorney after a bit. You committed a crime of a double murder and have been free for years and never worried nor considered such and he isn't young and naive. I think he is a FOX. Not a good sly one but he thinks he is. Let's not eat and get gaunt, etc. Look at how he dressed and approached these girls. Everything was so nondescript, head down some there too... Hunched, hands in pocket.

I may be wrong, but I am developing a picture of this man and it isn't the one he is portraying. It's an ACT.

Not arguing with anyone, just my instinct and all we have seen.

Maybe these things were benign but I don't think so--just think of him in front of that or those posters in the bar. Now think of his daughter on the MONAN HIGH BRIDGE in a shirt like Libby's... Add in all this other...

He thinks he is one smart dude and unfortunately, some are buying his woe is me act. I don't think he is happy don't get me wrong but it is an act. This man is a quiet control freak and cunning. He likes the games.

Again just all my opinion but I sense it pretty strongly and everything that happens or comes out only confirms it further to me.

I could be wrong of course.

So he kills two young teens and had nil remorse or mental health worries about it for 5 years. Now he has confessed he is suddenly beset with mental problems? This is because he knows he is going down for a very long time and that is what effect his guilt and confession has done to him IMO. I do not think it is because of his treatment in jail. He is going mad now he knows that everyone knows what he has done.

 

[GrandmaBear]

So he kills two young teens and had nil remorse or mental health worries about it for 5 years. Now he has confessed he is suddenly beset with mental problems? This is because he knows he is going down for a very long time and that is what effect his guilt and confession has does to him IMO. I do not think it is because of his treatment in jail. He is going mad now he knows that everyone knows what he has done.

EXACTLY. That is what I have been saying but you said it better. He never had any issue, was just living, going to his local bar, working, never a mental issue, walking amongst the people of the community in a daily life but NOW he has mental problems. And the docs that have come out just support the reason and timing of it all.

I disagree he is going mad now though lol but I know what you mean, he is desperate because he is caught and yes, all know the monster he truly is. IF he truly cares about what is thought, not so sure of that. He has all the markings of the ways of some serial killers... I think we have an act going on quite possibly. Not so sure he isn't proud of his kills and lack of capture for so many years quite honestly... Not sold on it but I think his woe is me may truly be an act...

It is minor maybe but his hunched over frame I keep seeing the same on the bridge, kind of non threatening, hunched over, hands in pockets... The comparison just keeps playing in my head. Yet you see pictures of him in the bar, shooting pool, at a family holiday in the kitchen, etc. and there is NONE of that. I don't know...But just remember and think about the pure EVIL in a person there must be AND intent to do what was done in this case... He wasn't just drunk and lost it. This was INTENTIONAL, brutal, cruel and evil.

 

[Tresir]

I expect somewhere down the line a claim he had no idea they were recorded. I'd never believe it but I think he/they may try. I think the attorney would know that's an unbelievable claim but I wouldn't doubt Allen would claim it. This is a man who claimed he had no idea what a defense attorney would cost when he asked for an attorney after a bit. You committed a crime of a double murder and have been free for years and never worried nor considered such and he isn't young and naive. I think he is a FOX. Not a good sly one but he thinks he is. Let's not eat and get gaunt, etc. Look at how he dressed and approached these girls. Everything was so nondescript, head down some there too... Hunched, hands in pocket.

I may be wrong, but I am developing a picture of this man and it isn't the one he is portraying. It's an ACT.

Not arguing with anyone, just my instinct and all we have seen.

Maybe these things were benign but I don't think so--just think of him in front of that or those posters in the bar. Now think of his daughter on the MONAN HIGH BRIDGE in a shirt like Libby's... Add in all this other...

He thinks he is one smart dude and unfortunately, some are buying his woe is me act. I don't think he is happy don't get me wrong but it is an act. This man is a quiet control freak and cunning. He likes the games.

Again just all my opinion but I sense it pretty strongly and everything that happens or comes out only confirms it further to me.

I could be wrong of course.

I cannot help thinking of him letting the family having the funeral pics for free, knowing he was responsible. Did he really have pity or remorse that prompted that?

Sorry if these details have already been posted. I haven't fully read all of the links and documents yet.

Delphi murders: Knife likely used in killing of 2 girls on hiking trail, docs reveal

Court documents unsealed Wednesday reveal investigators believe a knife was used in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana.

www.foxnews.com

Delphi murders: Knife likely used in killing of 2 girls on hiking trail, docs reveal​

Investigators believe Richard Allen used a "sharp object" to kill Liberty "Libby" German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, Feb. 14, 2017, while the two teen girls were walking on a popular hiking trail in Delphi, court documents unsealed Wednesday revealed.

Investigators initially questioned Allen that same year after witnesses and security footage tied him and his vehicle to the crime scene.


A pair of underwear and a sock appeared to be missing from the crime scene when police arrived. Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone, which had a 43-second video showing Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Libby while a man wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. The man can be heard ordering the girls "down the hill," according to an affidavit released Wednesday.

Libby captured the video at 2:13 p.m., less than 25 minutes after she and Abigail's family members dropped them off at the trail.


Based on their investigation, authorities "believe a firearm was involved in the abduction and murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German because an unspent .40-caliber round was found between the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

Investigators also "believe a knife was used in the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

A medical examiner determined the girls died by homicide and had wounds caused by a "sharp object," court documents state.


Five years later, on Oct. 13, 2022, investigators again interviewed Allen and his wife, Kathy Allen. During that interview, Allen confirmed he had been wearing "blue jeans, and blue or black Carhart jacket with hood and that he was wearing head covering" when he was on the trail that day.

Authorities said Allen's description of his clothing that day and items that were later recovered from his home "match the description of the man seen on the bridge from the video taken by Liberty German's phone. "

Investigators executed a search warrant at the Allens' home in Delphi Oct. 13, 2022, and they recovered a blue Carhartt jacket, a SIG Sauer P226 .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun and a .40-caliber S&W cartridge in a "wooden keepsake box" from a dresser between two closets in Allen's bedroom.

The handgun recovered at Allen's home was consistent with the .40-caliber unspent bullet police located at the site of the murders in 2017.

When I read 'sharp object' I immediately thought of a scalpel, as he works at a pharmacy.

This is amazing. "Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone....."

A pair of underwear and a sock appeared to be missing from the crime scene when police arrived. Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone, which had a 43-second video showing Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Libby while a man wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. The man can be heard ordering the girls "down the hill," according to an affidavit released Wednesday.

 

[Guess Who]

Alex Murdaugh, an attorney himself, said things on phone calls and then had a fit it came out. I don't believe he was clueless and I don't believe Allen was either. I think they feel that invincible or smarter or feel the system is dumb and the people who work in it.

I think it is a mix of invincibility and in Allen's case cat and mouse. i do think though with his wife it would be easy to see her threatening to not be there for him as all are talking of or wondering about her and what he has left her dealing with financially and worse and if he does not tell her the TRUTH. And even IF he knew it was recorded, he NEEDS someone on the outside.

For some reason I think of Summer's call with Lori Vallow, sisters. She CLEARLY is falling apart but Lori doesn't crack because she is COLD and knows it is recorded. Lori also was okay with her attorneys and is convinced she is god's special child. I only don't capitalize god because whatever God chose her that she has cannot be the same one I believe in. I picture Allen's wife reeling with emotion just like Summer was and up and down. I honestly don't doubt he has some human emotions for the loss of his life (meaning on the outside) and what not and it hasn't been easy but I think he likely was put on the spot by her about what about this and how do you explain this and I want to believe you but how can I... You TELL me the truth or I am done with you is how I expect it went.

Of COURSE I am speculating. We all are. Do you know what else such a type does to get their way? Threaten suicide or that they want to die. They play that as their last card with spouses etc. I stayed in my first marriage for longer than I should have because of this game. I was young. And we are all taught you don't ignore anyone saying that. Sooo maybe she was done with him and said so and wanted the truth and he said he did it and deserved to die and that he wanted to, she was leaving, he was incarcerated, etc. To get HER to worry he had a death wish.

He had to do what he had to do at the time and then figured he could get out of it, no one would ever hear it, or he would deal with the fall out when it came (others knowing he confessed).

Again just a lot of speculation by me but yeah, it will be interesting to hear the calls.

Here is a thought to chew on though, and boiling it down, if he is confessing all over the place at that time then why would he not change his plea to guilty if he was so ridden by guilt or whatever?

I think he likely had to when given the things by her or there would be a fall out there and then he had to deal with the next thing next. If his wife LEFT him and it was publicly known, of course we
d all think she'd come to realize he was guilty. He can't have that.

I am guessing Lil RIcky was between a rock and a hard place. And he also allegedly confessed to his mom. The two he likely has outside of bars to provide help or money for a private attorney, commissary, show support in court are his parents and his wife.

I find it very interesting we hear nothing of the daughter being there in support of her dad.

I know this all sounds harsh. But I believe he did this and we don't know the half of the sick things he put these girls through. We know how he approached and more. And I keep in mind the crime that was committed here. This is not some turnip who fell of the country bumpkin truck. He is not naive.

This is NOT AT anyone or even in disagreement, just kind of writing as things come of my thoughts on it. I don't want anyone taking it as addressing them because I'm not.

Libby makes me think of Tylee Ryan for some reason. Can anyone agree on that one? They both sounded like protectors and the type that would fight for someone more vulnerable or their friends, brother, etc.

I think what brings such vehemence to me is the crimes that were committed against others. And I've always felt that way even before our loss. I do not like it when things aren't fair, or justice does not prevail. Was that way as a child. I am a Libra. The scales. It has always fit me. Jsut saying, always been a thing with me.

Been a long week and a stressful one. And the day off today was as well, no relief. Sorry for going on. Guess I am right now using cases and perps as a safe outlet to go at. Maybe that's part of it.

I think it's a case of people that just can't quit talking.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I cannot help thinking of him letting the family having the funeral pics for free, knowing he was responsible. Did he really have pity or remorse that prompted that?

When I read 'sharp object' I immediately thought of a scalpel, as he works at a pharmacy.

This is amazing. "Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone....."

A pair of underwear and a sock appeared to be missing from the crime scene when police arrived. Under Libby's body, detectives found a phone, which had a 43-second video showing Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Libby while a man wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. The man can be heard ordering the girls "down the hill," according to an affidavit released Wednesday.

I just can't picture someone who committed something like this, who wanted to and followed through with such evil intent, having remorse. He has to be a type that has none to even DO such a thing doesn't he? You'd cringe at the thought otherwise. So letting them have the pictures for free was just playing nice and innocent imo. Not about remorse. I think killers who just lose their temper (some) maybe capable of remorse when the anger fades. I don't think intentional killers are for the most part. Jmo.

I thought of scalpel as well although I'd expect it to be called an instrument but yeah, it fits object too I guess. Anything does. I just think object isn't the typical term used. Heck it could be anything from a box cutter to sword, who knows... I do wonder if they have a thought. These girls were found right away almost, the next day, so autopsies should have been pretty accurate and evidence still existing. No decomp etc.

Yes, the phone is interesting. Since I imagine a fight or at least attempt by the girls and Libby for sure, the fact she had the phone yet surprises me. Terrible thoughts of their deaths all this stuff is but I wonder if she didn't manage to find it, cover it or protect it as she died. I guess it could have also been in her back pocket or something depending on whether she was face up or down. But then we have heard of the fact they were posed or whatever so I just don't know...

And were they dressed? Awful thoughts again but underwear missing. Did they find the underwear do we know? I know there was talk of some things in the creek way back when. I mean it is possible one of the girls wasn't wearing any, not unheard of if going for comfort, etc. So it would be key whether they were found. A sock is different. If a girl had one sock on she was most definitely wearing two most likely.

The underwear though of course brings a sexual component which has always been suspected and I think somewhere some time ago confirmed in some obscure not well publicized thing. I can't recall where but after wondering for years I know I came to the conclusion there was a sexual thing.

And that then means a pedo or child porn or someone lusting after underaged girls, etc. And that then comes back to thinking of Kline and a pedo ring/group for me. It is just all too uncanny. You know this was such a short period of time I just feel as if he knew they would be there or were headed there. That could come from Kline, Snapchat or something,, etc. But I also wondered back when (before we knew about Allen, long before) if the girls could have stopped somewhere with Kelsey like to get snacks, a pop, a phone card, anything.... And someone overheard them tell someone they were going to the bridge in chit chat, a clerk, anyone and someone overheard them and then headed there and yep went after them... I have no reason to think that, just one of many thoughts I've had over the years. And here he works at CVS... Or even the gas station Kline allegedly googled. Delphi isn't huge. Maybe Allen stopped there on the way to work or some such and overheard them and they had stopped for something.

I just don't think this was random. I don't think he was spending the day there and just lucked out on two girls happening to be there. He knew I believe.

He also could have been in contact with them somehow like Kline was with the Anthony Shotz thing. It has always stood out to me that Libby wiped her phone. Had she sent some creep (not knowing) pictures and he was threatening to publish them, etc. and set meet me and I'll give them back....? This IS a thing, other cases like such.

All speculation of course on my part but I think fairly educated guesses. I guess also IF there was this sexual part of this crime then they could have come on Kline by looking for anyone with sexual proclivities in the area BUT he WAS in contact with Libby. With Allen, we don't know that but we have missing underwear and these are young girls... We know at least Libby corresponded with the Shotz thing. I think sadly these girls were in over their heads and were online and did not know they were dancing with danger. Just young barely teenaged girls wanting to feel more adult, probably getting interested in things teens are like boys, etc...

The other thing that really sits with me is Allen with PICTURES or processing pictures for himself or others. Worked at both Walmart and CVS... Pedos and pictures. Maybe for his "friends" as well... A ring.

Normally in almost any case I wouldn't believe this stuff was likely but this one has things that lean towards such thoughts. A lot of them.

Just talking out loud...

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think it's a case of people that just can't quit talking.

In Murdaugh lol no doubt. The man thinks he can talk himself out of anything and b.s. anyone.

But with Allen I have the impression he is more the noncommunicative type and his wife was the talker/communicator. Strikes me as one of those silent types. And beware of those, or at least some of them. Speaking from experience. They can only talk when drunk, etc. and relaxed from it and then sometimes it is also to explode depending on their mood and level of intoxication. We know he drank.

I have this impression from things shared and it was recently even further confirmed if the case when LE or prison people said he was quiet and read and did crossword puzzles, etc. Wasn't interacting much or chatty. I honestly think his wife and mom likely being beyond upset and devastated pushed him for answers and he confessed.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Still waters run deep. And sometimes veil wicked evil. Imo. In some cases.

 

[Tresir]

is it just me or does calling it a sharp "object" seem odd. I would expect sharp instrument. Am I putting too much into it thinking they don't mean a knife or something on that order? Am I making too much of words? Every time I read object it bothers me for some reason.

This doesn't seem too specific on cause of death, etc. What I mean is I guess no mention that a stab to the heart killed or slicing the neck did or just blood loss did, etc. I hate saying any of these awful thoughts but I just mean this is quite basic and vague. I'm sure it will get more specific at trial though.

Not a lot about what he put the girls through either and I suspect that's going to make him look like a sick pedo. I think some think it was just the thrill of the kill which may have been a large component but I don't think it is all of it. Jmo.

I was surprised to hear the phone was found under Libby. I thought it was found somewhere like on the edge of the trail just off the path or something. It is hard to imagine that if there was any fight or anything done to Libby that the phone would still be in her hands or have went down with her, etc. or he wouldn't have seen it at some point. But then also isn't or wasn't it said or surmised the bodies were staged or posed or something...? And yet the phone was there. Hmm.

Why did I have the impression Allen went in on his own? This says this:



WITNESSES tied him AND video footage tied his vehicle to the CRIME SCENE.

This makes it even harder to believe he could be forgot about or the info misfiled, etc. Investigators in the plural. No mention of a conservation officer, etc. WHAT is going on here? He should have been suspect numero uno and NOT forgotten about, I can't see that as even possible as plural investigators AND witnesses would have forgotten about him.

Is it POSSIBLE they've always had him in their sights and just didn't have ENOUGH...? That may be giving them too much credit though as it's basically been said it was misfiled or some such and in going through the case again, info about him was found. Did they really bungle it that badly or are they dumbing it up for some reason? Any thoughts on this?

It sounds like they don't have the murder weapon. Otherwise they would know what it was. Was it a sharp unknown object, or a knife?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Before I forget, one last thing that I think has import and it wasn't with the recent document dump, we heard it before.

The fact that defense is trying to block his employment records. WHY???? What is so big about work records?

The easiest thought to jump to is he left work that day claiming illness or something he had to do, etc. and that would be big imo if the time fit well.

BUT also what does work have? He could have been reprimanded for something through the years... Maybe processing the types of photos for someone he shouldn't have...?

Maybe flirting with young girls...

Any other thoughts?

It seems on its face a minor thing to need to block access to or bring into a trial so why the concern?

 

[GrandmaBear]

Could have been reprimanded for pilfering or providing drugs... I think that the least likely but there is I think something they don't want known...

 

[Imamazed]

It sounds like they don't have the murder weapon.

I don't think they have the murder weapon the article I read says Law Enforcement thinks its a knife?

Delphi murders: Knife likely used in killing of 2 girls on hiking trail, docs reveal

Court documents unsealed Wednesday reveal investigators believe a knife was used in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana.

www.foxnews.com

Based on their investigation, authorities "believe a firearm was involved in the abduction and murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German because an unspent .40-caliber round was found between the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

Investigators also "believe a knife was used in the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think most of us know she is thorough and good. 118 docs released and she is one that is on such, as we see it is taking a day or two to get much of anything while channels review what they can and try to put a show together, she is pretty good at it.

I haven't had time to listen to all and won't have for a bit but what I have heard so far is good and it isn't dry doc coverage it is pulling what she feels significant, her opinion on the case and what the info means, etc.

Linking it. Worth watching although I'm not going to get too much further into it tonight myself. I'm wiped.

 

[Tresir]

I just can't picture someone who committed something like this, who wanted to and followed through with such evil intent, having remorse. He has to be a type that has none to even DO such a thing doesn't he? You'd cringe at the thought otherwise. So letting them have the pictures for free was just playing nice and innocent imo. Not about remorse. I think killers who just lose their temper (some) maybe capable of remorse when the anger fades. I don't think intentional killers are for the most part. Jmo.

I thought of scalpel as well although I'd expect it to be called an instrument but yeah, it fits object too I guess. Anything does. I just think object isn't the typical term used. Heck it could be anything from a box cutter to sword, who knows... I do wonder if they have a thought. These girls were found right away almost, the next day, so autopsies should have been pretty accurate and evidence still existing. No decomp etc.

Yes, the phone is interesting. Since I imagine a fight or at least attempt by the girls and Libby for sure, the fact she had the phone yet surprises me. Terrible thoughts of their deaths all this stuff is but I wonder if she didn't manage to find it, cover it or protect it as she died. I guess it could have also been in her back pocket or something depending on whether she was face up or down. But then we have heard of the fact they were posed or whatever so I just don't know...

And were they dressed? Awful thoughts again but underwear missing. Did they find the underwear do we know? I know there was talk of some things in the creek way back when. I mean it is possible one of the girls wasn't wearing any, not unheard of if going for comfort, etc. So it would be key whether they were found. A sock is different. If a girl had one sock on she was most definitely wearing two most likely.

The underwear though of course brings a sexual component which has always been suspected and I think somewhere some time ago confirmed in some obscure not well publicized thing. I can't recall where but after wondering for years I know I came to the conclusion there was a sexual thing.

And that then means a pedo or child porn or someone lusting after underaged girls, etc. And that then comes back to thinking of Kline and a pedo ring/group for me. It is just all too uncanny. You know this was such a short period of time I just feel as if he knew they would be there or were headed there. That could come from Kline, Snapchat or something,, etc. But I also wondered back when (before we knew about Allen, long before) if the girls could have stopped somewhere with Kelsey like to get snacks, a pop, a phone card, anything.... And someone overheard them tell someone they were going to the bridge in chit chat, a clerk, anyone and someone overheard them and then headed there and yep went after them... I have no reason to think that, just one of many thoughts I've had over the years. And here he works at CVS... Or even the gas station Kline allegedly googled. Delphi isn't huge. Maybe Allen stopped there on the way to work or some such and overheard them and they had stopped for something.

I just don't think this was random. I don't think he was spending the day there and just lucked out on two girls happening to be there. He knew I believe.

He also could have been in contact with them somehow like Kline was with the Anthony Shotz thing. It has always stood out to me that Libby wiped her phone. Had she sent some creep (not knowing) pictures and he was threatening to publish them, etc. and set meet me and I'll give them back....? This IS a thing, other cases like such.

All speculation of course on my part but I think fairly educated guesses. I guess also IF there was this sexual part of this crime then they could have come on Kline by looking for anyone with sexual proclivities in the area BUT he WAS in contact with Libby. With Allen, we don't know that but we have missing underwear and these are young girls... We know at least Libby corresponded with the Shotz thing. I think sadly these girls were in over their heads and were online and did not know they were dancing with danger. Just young barely teenaged girls wanting to feel more adult, probably getting interested in things teens are like boys, etc...0⁰

The other thing that really sits with me is Allen with PICTURES or processing pictures for himself or others. Worked at both Walmart and CVS... Pedos and pictures. Maybe for his "friends" as well... A ring.ĺ

Normally in almost any case I wouldn't believe this stuff was likely but this one has things that lean towards such thoughts. A lot of them.

Just talking out loud...

I believe the police scanner mentioned undergarments found in the river IIRC. I have always wondered if he was disposing of those to destroy DNA.

Re the pictures, he could well have been processing illegal photos, putting them onto discs for example for his own or others use. We know he processed photos for the family of the deceased. Work records could provide him an alibi so it is clear to me that he was not at work in the afternoon, at the time of the murders and that is possibly why the defence don't want the records released.

The other possibility is that he was walking in the bridge vicinity and saw Libby's pics of Abbey on the bridge in real time and it was a spur of the moment crime. Yet he would have to have had both the gun and the sharp weapon with him and been very close behind the girls, in order to catch them up.

 

[Mel70]

Could have been reprimanded for pilfering or providing drugs... I think that the least likely but there is I think something they don't want known...

I would think he would have immediately have been fired for that. That would be a liability to the company possibly. Everywhere I know says that is grounds for immediate dismissal.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I believe the police scanner mentioned undergarments found in the river IIRC. I have always wondered if he was disposing of those to destroy DNA.

Re the pictures, he could well have been processing illegal photos, putting them onto discs for example for his own or others use. We know he processed photos for the family of the deceased. Work records could provide him an alibi so it is clear to me that he was not at work in the afternoon, at the time of the murders and that is possibly why the defence don't want the records released.

The other possibility is that he was walking in the bridge vicinity and saw Libby's pics of Abbey on the bridge in real time and it was a spur of the moment crime. Yet he would have to have had both the gun and the sharp weapon with him and been very close behind the girls, in order to catch them up.

Yeah I think clothing is confirmed now and I also was thinking of the undergarment talk you mentioned that we heard of some time back and the scanner.

Re the pics also, it is a stretch in most cases to go to such thoughts but here we HAVE talk of a pedo ring, we KNOW of a dropbox and Kline (whether related or not), we KNOW of Libby's contact with Kline portray he was a male model and talk of a meeting and more. We KNOW Allen at least dealt with photos giving them free to the family for the service and going into the circle this creates, it is not a stretch at all that he was doing such a thing being able to develop photos or put on CD, memory sticks, etc. in a small local pharmacy. They are a chain but they are small as far as stores, etc. and number of employees...

Yeah it is possible he was in the bridge vicinity or the trail, etc. and saw Abby's picture by Libby hit Snapchat (I think it was) but I don't think it was spur of the moment. Of course it could be as you say but also the way he was dressed, the fact he had the weapons, his behavior, all of it just more so points to he knew they were going there and maybe for me they even intended to meet someone and as someone approached, they realized it was not who they thought it would be... For example, Anthony Shotz.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I would think he would have immediately have been fired for that. That would be a liability to the company possibly. Everywhere I know says that is grounds for immediate dismissal.

It IS but that doesn't mean each chain store etc. of any company isn't run individually in that they can cover an incident or it be explained and apolgized for and begging for another chance. They each have their own manager etc. who very well may not be the most ethical person himself or herself, etc. And the toher thing is if so, they don't put such in the records most likely. I know as you say what the rules say in almost any business but it doesn't mean that is what really goes on...

BUT I agree I don't think it is the most likely scenario of what defense is concerned about with work records, it was just an example of the things that perhaps he could have done wrong. I think photos are far more likely. And more likely than that is he left work with some excuse and then he was at the trail/bridge.