LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]



Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On Feb 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams & Liberty German were discovered in Delphi, #INDIANA. The suspect in their deaths is awaiting trial.

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant, though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." Even with a lot of media coverage, their murders remain unsolved.

www.crimewatchers.net

 

[Olenna]

FYI:
Sleuthie's delphi timeline is up. link via her twitter.

 

[Olenna]

What's the DTH documentary?

down the hill (I think that's what they call it?)

 

[GrandmaBear]

This supports exactly what I've been saying. There is no provable interaction between the two. No computer exchanges, phone exchanges, texts etc... So, how did they communicate? This article also says what I said before. KK claims to have information on the crime that the cops don't want to listen to.

It could be that it's obvious or it just might be, as I somewhat suspect, refusing to go down a certain route for some reason. It seems that the prosecution believes it's RA, alone, who did this, and nothing will sway them away from that. I don't want ONE guy who's involved, I want them all.

If RA is found not guilty the prosecution will stick to it's guns and say he got away with it and leave it alone. There are cases where it's been proven that someone is innocent and they refuse to believe it and just say he's the one who did it, he just got away with it.

I don't want a sacrificial lamb, I want the whole flock.

The filing of this case left open for Allen and others and even hinted at it. P avoided no such path and even put it in their filings the fact or change there were others.

I don't know why people get to thinking we, Joe Public, know all there is to know about a case, especially one in which so much has been sealed and certainly not shared by the P. Then they hear a bunch of whatever defense files in something longer than War and Peace and believe they know every single "fact".

You were on the KK thing as much or more than anyone and of COURSE we don't know if they found any connection or belief in how they may have communicated IF in fact it relates at all to KK. Just his plan to meet Libby though at the very same place, just that ALONE, is too much to ignore as is the interest in Kline right before they did a 180 and arrested Allen who we'd NEVER heard of.

No offense but you don't know who your flock is. Allen can't be removed as he places himself there and confessed and it was his gun. And you need RL to be BG which makes the scenarios you have not work. And somehow you can't dismiss the Os but there's NO connection or hint of a connection there to RA or RL nor can anyone place them there. You were all over the pedo ring and KK UNTIL the O thing came out.

And isn't a flock several? You think several were there or involved?

Your scenarios change with the tides and the wind but even more so they don't gel into one at all with mixed up characters and more that don't necesssarily relate. I've told you before if you just let go of RL being BG you could make some scenarios work.

As far as the P believing it is RA alone, we don't know that. They may not know or they may know but are starting with the one they have. Who knows. We don't KNOW. They did just surprise with kidnapping charges and more. Truly, we all know everything they do (we don't as some think we do) and that wasn't out of the blue after how long? Now of course that could just relate to his taking control of the girls but it could mean they think he was kidnapping them to take them or did take them elsewhere. It definitely wasn't rushed and came more than a year after RA's arrest on the iniitial charges...

THINK about that and the reason... More to come for sure as the case gets moving and the new charges do as well and more info comes out. We haven't even come close to that point yet.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Two people who knew Logan well were shown the footage of BG, indepently, to see if they thought it was Logan. Before being asked if they thought it was him, they both said it was Ron Logan.

You've shared that before and it's been talked of before to no end. One of them had a personal hard on towards RL and I think talked of his abuse and more too. Wasn't it a former gf or a few dates and he dumped her or some such. Man that was talked of years ago on forums. They went down the RL path and you know they did. And eliminated.

All that said, I can't let go of IF his land was part of it or he was how it could change scenarios here. It's hard to ignore. BUT we have absolutely no reason to connect him to RA, KK, a pedo ring, etc. Or to Os for that matter. Nor RA either. BUT RA went after these girls at the VERY place KK was supposed to meet them in that very day or two window, or at least meet Libby. THERE there is reason to wonder... With RL and Os there is not. Nada.

 

[Sunburst]

Yep and IN was one of the states who didn't have it until not that long ago.

This case is why Indiana now has a law that says DNA is taken upon felony arrest. Not conviction, arrest. The bill went through the Indiana legislature at lightning speed- less than a year. It literally flew through the bill approval process. It was introduced in March 2017 and became law in December 2017.

 

[GrandmaBear]

(This is merely thoughts I've had about this.)

They were all on RLs property and came to the hill waiting for them from there. They were forced down the hill by RL or RA (Depending on who you believe.). Watch the video I posted about RL by an FBI agent. It has everything I've learned about his possible involvement in bits and pieces over time and clarifies some things I only knew in broad terms. For instance. I had no idea how limited the search warrant for his property was. It sounds like they never checked the barn or any other areas. So a lot could've been missed.

I have no idea how many were involved in this, but I would guess at least 3.



They knew about a vehicle. I'll admit that my brother and I are car guys. We know more than the average bear* about cars on the road. Me, much more so in the past. So if you lined up a Ford Focus, Smart Car and a PT Cruiser I'd be able to pick each one out very easily. To me they don't look much alike at all. So it's hard for me to believe that those three descriptions could be applied to the same car.


I forget who said this, but somebody was wondering if he was addicted to drugs because he was a pharmacy tech. When I worked at the hospital the team I worked on had the responsibility to run the narcotics vault. It wasn't my primary job, but I had to fill in if the woman who ran it went on vacation or called in sick or on my weekend to work once a month.

Every morning the person working the narcotics vault would have to verify that EVERY pill recorded from the previous days end was still there or the missing pills were accounted for by orders from the floors. You'd have to do the same thing at the end of the day. There was a book similar to an accountants ledger where everything was recorded for the narcotics. There was never a stealing problem while I worked there. Near the end of my time there I worked the O.R. and dispensed narcotics to anesthesia residents. They also had to have accounted for every ml. of narcotics they used.

I'd imagine a chain store like CVS has a similar system in place. If RA had a narcotics problem CVS would have figured it out in less than two weeks. It would only take that long in order to match up the missing meds with who was working at the time. They probably have unannounced urine tests that happen to the pharmacy employees periodically. So if he had a drug problem he was getting them from somewhere else.

*Has anyone tested the average bear on car knowledge?

I think you're imagining a group (of what size) is problematic. How many men can't change a lightbulb or does it take either way nor if you were going to murder someone and chance prison would you want ten others involved, participating, etc. one of which would flip on you eventually or mess up in the carrying out of the crime to begin with.

Name some PLANNED murders by a group or flock in broad daylight that are a thing like this case as to where, victims, time of day, etc.? Now if you are talking two or maybe three, I wouldn't think it was totally outlandish. You'd also have to coordinate each person, the when, the vehicles, the travel etc. when even A & L did NOT know if they'd be able to go to the trails that day. Now a single person or two might hope and wait to hear but several that the leader would have to inform when and if it was on or off and so on? It is so far fetched.

Now if you said RA and KK and RL I still wouldn't be totally on board but at least that isn't so out there.

Who is coordinating this and telling the others whether it is off or on as the minutes and day goes by as to whether A & L will get to go to the trails or not or at what time? As to time frame and the window of time they will have and when to be at their posts?

Called Os in from various towns? Did they all just take the day off work and hope it happened? Same with the pedos if that was the case?

I guess I'm asking how big of a group or flock are you talking about? Because group and flock implies many.

 

[GrandmaBear]

That was me that suggested that. He could have manipulated the records to hide anything he was stealing. Made false scripts, etc. I bet a pharmacy are not as hot on records as a hospital are.

ETA you say this below, however, the creek is in between Logan's property and the hill so how could this have happened ie how did they cross the creek?

I don't think drugs and his being a pharm tech and drugs have anything to do with anything relating to drugs or the taking of them. I hate to but I agree with Cuz on that one. I don't see how any such thing would relate other than maybe you want to think he had to be on something or addicted to something to do this crime. There is no evidence of drugs with the girls, with him, with the crime. Alcohol yes. Drugs no. And just like a bank teller or cashier that steals, a pharmacy oh yeah, all would be onto the person and the shift, etc. in no time with standard procedures. When one sees things like stealing from a bookkeeper or embezzling and other things, it generally is a place that put total trust in that person in the job and didn't have procedures and accounting and verifying by someone else, triple checks, etc.

No offense at all intended but the leap to drugs is one I don't buy into or think relates to anything.

On the other hand, I am with you on the KK and pedo thing. I have not dismissed that possibility. There's too much reason yet not to and no reason to dismiss it.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I'm assuming if there were other crimes here, we'd see charges related to such activity like that above or other activities like ...

He was part of a drug gang.
Or
He had access to photo services at that drug store.
Or
He could have ran CSAM ops out of the photo department.
Or
He used tranquilizers from Kathy's workplace.

I'm content to wait for trial evidence.

We rarely agree but I do on the drug part, I don't see a reason to think such.

As far as photos or CSAM who knows. And I don't think we'd necessarily see other charges, heck, we just saw kidnapping come down after how long. I don't necessarily think anything was done with photos or CSAM but at least with that, it is not an out there thought since there is the KK thing, the pedo ring thing and the fact RA found the girls or "met" them right where Kk of the pedo ring, Shots/dropbox planned to meet Libby. We also know his duties and job as in many retail places crossed where he did other things as we know he provided the photos to the families for L and A free of charge. And so there's hints that could make one wonder about him with photos, etc. and CSAM shared through a dropbox and so on.

Drugs, I see no reason or hint of in this case in any way shape or form. Jmo.

I'm content to wait for trial too but that doesn't stop speculation, thoughts, new evidence or claims that will come, charges, possible scenarios and so on.

I'm also waiting for Old D to file their speedy trial motion. I mean that should come soon right, be one of the things next up with them? Uh huh.

Personally I don't think I've said this before but I think these two are in over their heads and have been from the start and not up to it hence the b.s. and help from unlicensed friends... Jmo though.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Maybe they didn't know about it? We do know they requested some work records from his employer though.

Work records would show a lot of things from days off to leaving work early/calling in sick, if he took leave for alcohol rehab, if he had any disciplinary actions and more. Probably would show if they did any background check and the results (I doubt they did until he was a pharm tech maybe), verified his education and license when he became one, etc.

I have to agree that if there was any theft of drugs, etc. going on, he wouldn't have still been working there either then or all this many years later.

 

[Sunburst]

I think Libby had several profiles on line (Kik and Snapchat minimum) but Abby only had FB, unbeknownst to her mother. I believe Abbey didnt have a phone but had a tablet or IPad.

Remember at the very beginning and then a year or so later, someone in LE said basically: " Parents, pay attention to your children's social media. and what your kids are doing online." Paraphrasing the actual statement.

 

[Cousin Dupree]

down the hill (I think that's what they call it?)

Link?

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I think you're imagining a group (of what size) is problematic. How many men can't change a lightbulb or does it take either way nor if you were going to murder someone and chance prison would you want ten others involved, participating, etc. one of which would flip on you eventually or mess up in the carrying out of the crime to begin with.

Name some PLANNED murders by a group or flock in broad daylight that are a thing like this case as to where, victims, time of day, etc.? Now if you are talking two or maybe three, I wouldn't think it was totally outlandish. You'd also have to coordinate each person, the when, the vehicles, the travel etc. when even A & L did NOT know if they'd be able to go to the trails that day. Now a single person or two might hope and wait to hear but several that the leader would have to inform when and if it was on or off and so on? It is so far fetched.

Now if you said RA and KK and RL I still wouldn't be totally on board but at least that isn't so out there.

Who is coordinating this and telling the others whether it is off or on as the minutes and day goes by as to whether A & L will get to go to the trails or not or at what time? As to time frame and the window of time they will have and when to be at their posts?

Called Os in from various towns? Did they all just take the day off work and hope it happened? Same with the pedos if that was the case?

I guess I'm asking how big of a group or flock are you talking about? Because group and flock implies many.

Imagining how RA did it by himself is just as crazy as my theory.

 

[GrandmaBear]

I think Libby had several profiles on line (Kik and Snapchat minimum) but Abby only had FB, unbeknownst to her mother. I believe Abbey didnt have a phone but had a tablet or IPad.

Hard to say. They were sure at that sadly naive age of interest and bravado and testing waters that sadly perps take advantage of. We know Abby did have FB and Anna did not know. We know Abby was not to cross the bridge by Anna's rules and did. We know Libby wiped her phone just before. The girls were close friends and at that age of exploration, etc. They spent the night before together up a lot of the night and doing what? Probably online imo.

Way back in the first months and then years of this case, I have always thought there was likely some online connection or thing at least. It was always denied and ruled out when brought up after the first weeks or months. And here we are.

I don't know about Abby but Libby probably lived by her phone a lot. I mean this is the girl that knew to record without hestitation, etc. We know of the one Snapchat photo of Abby on the bridge but I find it hard to believe that's all they shared online in whatever group, or with whatever friend or on whatever app from the night before to the day of.

They were friends and seemed to be on the same page that night, overnight and what not. I wouldn't find it hard to believe Abby had a phone or was more on things than Anna thought. That's nothing on the parents of either, we all are light years behind our children on tech and apps through many generations now and don't have a clue they change so fast. While the kids are savvier with them, and know of them and parents don't, the kids don't have the life experience to know the dangers.

I don't know how it will all tie together or if they were able to find evidence of all but I wouldn't find it hard to believe Abby had a phone or at least a lot of use of tech when not with mom. The girl had also had a "bf" which sounds way too you to me an oldie and like something that would not have been okayed at her age by mom either.

I look at their pics and they look like babies to me at least the most common ones shared. Like 9 or 10 I'd guess for age. 11 maybe.

Not that it means anything but CVS sells burner/prepaid phones. Just like drugs, or CSAM/photos, I guess that's another thought one could think means something. I don't think it does, just saying there's no limit to avenues and thoughts and rabbit holes one could go down and most of us have through all the years before an arrest. And still are/do. Who knows.

It isn't on their parents or them but I do think naive, young, risky (unknown to them) sharing and behavior played into this with a sicko like RA somehow and perhaps more than just him.

Even talking of the Shots profile, was this the only one that engaged with the girls, the only catfishing? Or the only one they were responding to etc. on any app? Or looking at and attempting to talk to? I'd also have to say we don't know it but their friends likely know a bit more that we've never heard as to their online activities.

I've seen adults be so stupid with such. Some years ago, ten? More maybe? 15? Friends of friends who I know but were acquaintances more than friends I'd see a couple especially on FB who would post where they were at and say on my 6th beer, having a blast, etc. in such and such a town at such and such a bar. I'd remark to people about how absolutely not wise that was and especially in real time. I knew it was only a matter of time and yep one night one of the ones really cluelessa about it ended up with a DUI I figured would have come far earlier. Duh. In a town with no cops of their own.

I am sidetracking but I am just saying like Snapchat if I understand it correctly you are sharing where you are and your location and what you are doing at that very moment. And I've heard of some newer ones since then but can't recall, just saying parents have no hope in keeping up. AND that I've seen adults clueless too.

Finally on a day off so not much but a few moments I have right now. Will never catch up but a little bit of time for a little it of catching up and thoughts.

 

[GrandmaBear]

You know this how?

I will say the stupidest thing RL ever did is lie when there was a murder of children being investigated and his land was right there. I'm sure he was worried about his own problems and freedom but right there should have been a far bigger worry that outweighed that.

The ONLY reasons I have not dismissed him is not because of a thing he did or is known, etc. other than 1) his lie AND asking someone else to lie for him as well; and 2) through no fault of his own, his land and property is right there. For THOSE reasons I cannot fully rule out a possibility but there honestly is nothing else he did or that was found that points me at him. Those two things though can open up the possibilities as to what RA was really up to, intending or doing and if alone or not and where they were headed if anywhere...

 

[Cousin Dupree]

I will say the stupidest thing RL ever did is lie when there was a murder of children being investigated and his land was right there. I'm sure he was worried about his own problems and freedom but right there should have been a far bigger worry that outweighed that.

The ONLY reasons I have not dismissed him is not because of a thing he did or is known, etc. other than 1) his lie AND asking someone else to lie for him as well; and 2) through no fault of his own, his land and property is right there. For THOSE reasons I cannot fully rule out a possibility but there honestly is nothing else he did or that was found that points me at him. Those two things though can open up the possibilities as to what RA was really up to, intending or doing and if alone or not and where they were headed if anywhere...

If you watch the 27:17 video there's a call from right around where A and L's bodies were found around 10pm before the bodies were found. I really suggest watching that before anybody (I know not you) dismisses him as a possible suspect.

Either one of two things is happening. There is a bunch of lazy people in the PD or some corrupt people in the PD, JMO.

 

[GrandmaBear]

FWIW, Abby had a burner, unbeknownst to her mom. I don't have the link ... but IIRC we saw this confirmed by Barb McDonald in her documentary DTH.

I think I've heard that but whether I heard it from you on this thread at some point or somewhere else or otherwise, I'm not sure. She confirmed it how can I ask?

Not that I doubt it necessarily but you said confirmed, how was it confirmed as true?

Was more said? Did she keep it at school? At home? At a friend's?

I think online stuff plays in big here somehow. There is enough evidence the girls were dancing with things. I'd always wonder if Libby wiping her phone wasn't some attempt to get rid of someone who was threatening or blackmailing, etc. I've seen enough cases where some fake account claiming to be a hottie gets young girls to send nude photos and then they hold them over their head threatening to show their whole school, their parents, put them online etc. unless they meet them. That's one thought I have always had. Among others. It has always stood out to me since early on about Libby's phone even when LE was denying evidence of anything online and so on and continued to through the years.

I am not on the parents nor the girls, this could be ANY parents and ANY children these days. The sickos now though can come basically right into their bedroom through tech, etc.

I said in an earlier post it is known Abby was to not cross the bridge but did. Not to have FB but mom came to find out she did. She also had had a bf. I don't find it hard to believe she could well have had a burner phone. Money to put minutes on at her age would be another thing for a lot of online time but I suppose that is possible too.

No phone of Abby's was ever found though as far as we know was it? I mean including at her mom's or at school, etc. or again how was this confirmed as you said? Curious..

 

[GrandmaBear]

JMO - I would think they've scoured workplace evidence and have lots of statements from co-workers, etc... Having an understanding of all that work-place stuff on this type of defendant is so important. No to mention, if RA did this ... it's so serial killer-ish.

There's probably bigger stuff others want to know but I want to know the accounts from that day and maybe the day before and after. I want to know them from coworkers, from wife, from daughter, from employer, etc. Problem is they didn't ask I'm sure back in the day when this happened and he admitted to being there.

I think of RA as a serial killer whether there are others or would have been. It's exactly what it seems to be like to me. I can't shake it.

 

[GrandmaBear]

Agreed.
No connection between RA and RL that we know of either.
No deathbed confession, I guess.

The only hint of connection that WE know of is KK and RA. Too uncanny they were both going to the same place to meet the girl/s in a very close time frame. I can't ignore that as I've said. Nothing though showing RL and RA nor RL and KK nor all three nor any O connections to any of them.

I also have no real reason to think RL is involved at all but with RA and KK again for the same reasons stated here and earlier I do.

RL I stated the things that leave me not ruling him out. Nothing he did other than his lie and the fact that his property would fit into a few scenarios that seem to have some real possibilities from things back in the day.

There was talk and things that made it seem as if the girls were not there the night the search began. Weren't found until the next day. That plays into thoughts.

But nothing RL did other than lie which was huge imo has me placing him as part of this. It would only be speculation with no real basis.

 

[GrandmaBear]

That's not enough for me to convict someone. I'd want DNA from such a bloody crime scene and a lot more for a circumstantial case.



I believe that was only to find out the days he was working.



Not true. You can have evidence that someone did something, just not enough to charge them with anything. After his death I think they didn't care anymore if he had any involvement. As I stated before I believe the others involved met at his farm and went down the hill to meet BG and the girls.

On the one hand RA at the trails is not enough to convict but RL who has nothing on him at all like RA does, you state emphatically was BG, so solidly, you'd convict as you're that sure. Huh?

RA has more than that. He kept the gun. It isn't just being the only guy there and the witnesses and his own words.

Work records would show yes when he was working and particularly that day. They'd show other things though too. Background check if any. Reviews. Disciplinary actions if any. More.

 

[GrandmaBear]

This case is why Indiana now has a law that says DNA is taken upon felony arrest. Not conviction, arrest. The bill went through the Indiana legislature at lightning speed- less than a year. It literally flew through the bill approval process. It was introduced in March 2017 and became law in December 2017.

I remember that and it stood out and was in large part due to this case if I recall no? Or at leas it helped with the push for it.

In LISK we've come to find out NY's laws are funny with DNA too and a major change just occurred since LISK arrest.