LIBBY GERMAN & ABBY WILLIAMS: Indiana vs. Richard Allen for 2017 murder of two Delphi girls *TRIAL IN PROGRESS*

On February 14, 2017, the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, which is part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana, United States, after the young girls had disappeared from the same trail the previous day. The murders have received significant media coverage because a photo and audio recording of an individual believed to be the girls' murderer was found on German's smartphone. Despite the audio and video recordings of the suspect that have been circulated and the more than 26,000 tips that police have received, no arrest in the case has been made.[1][2][3]

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Police have not publicly stated nor released details of how the girls were murdered.[6] As early as February 15, 2017, Indiana State Police began circulating a still image of an individual reportedly seen on the Monon High Bridge Trail near where the two friends were slain; the grainy photograph appearing to capture a Caucasian male, with hands in pockets, walking on the rail bridge, head down, toward the girls.[4] A few days later, the person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double-homicide.[5]

On February 22, law enforcement released an audio recording where the voice of the assailant,[7] though in some degree muffled, is heard to say, "Down the hill." It was at this news conference that officials credited the source of the audio and imagery to German's smartphone, and, further, regarded her as a hero for having had the uncanny foresight and fortitude to record the exchange in secret. Police indicated that additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial." By this time, the reward offered in the case was set at $41,000.[5]


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I just came across this secret voice recording of RL. Voice from the grave. Interesting. I recommend putting on subtitles. He thinks it was someone on the search team.



VERY interesting. Still willing to talk about it with strangers in 2019 after a year in prison. What a character. RL's final swipe at the families is ... well.
2019, 2 years later, RL knows perp is local local local and cannot figure out how you'd control two 14 year old girls for a 3/4 mile walk in the woods.
When you think about it ... which RL has thought about ... it is a lot of control.
 
just parking this article here too.
Article shorter than Defense Memo, focus on local "Vinlander Social Club" Members (Odinists) who are/were POIs in this investigation. Their family members notified Delphi investigation early on ... ball dropped ... per Defense Memo.

'Cultist' who Delphi defense blames for 'ritualistic' murders breaks silence after being accused of Snapchat killings - Dailynationtoday

(note: this longish article basically quotes the info in the defense memo as to local Vinlanders Social Club members - aka Odinists. Don't mind me, I'm weeks behind on reading the latest stuff and trying to catch up.)

Per Defense memo, a Vinlander suspect (EF) told his sister about being present on a bridge with 2 girls that were killed. 3 weeks after murder, sister put 2 and 2 together and drove to Delphi to inform police. More than a year later, Delhi investigation spoke w/ EF and DNA-swabbed him. (MORE THAN A YEAR LATER!) Also, info about BH, Abby's boyfriend-at-the-time's father and his facebook page.)

Allen’s attorneys claimed that, in spite of the alleged evidence, investigators said “nothing to see here” regarding Messer and issued no search warrant for his home, nor did they “attempt to utilize an age-old investigative tool referred to as an ‘interrogation’ to pursue the truth about the involvement of Johnny Messer, Brad Holder, or Patrick Westfall in these crimes,” the document states.

In the memorandum, Allen’s lawyers also allege that Elvis Fields told his sister on February 14, 2017, that he was part of a gang and had been on a “bridge with two girls that were killed.”

“Elvis told her that someone named Abigail was a pain in the a** and a troublemaker. She said Elvis tried to give her (Mary Jacobs) a blue jacket. She told him that she had her own jacket.

“After Elvis made these statements to his sister, Mary Jacobs, she later became aware of the Delphi murders and put two and two together.”

Two to three weeks later, Jacobs reportedly drove to Delphi with her husband to inform investigators about what Fields had purportedly told her.

However, due to the influx of tips investigators were receiving at the time, Allen’s team believes Jacobs’ remarks may have been overlooked.

Elvis Fields was interviewed by police just over a year later and he consented to a mouth swab to compare his DNA to that found at the scene of the murders.

After being dropped back off at his trailer, Fields allegedly walked back to the police squad car and asked a trooper: “What would happen if his spit is found on one of the girls, but he has an explanation? Would he still be in trouble?”

Another of Fields’ siblings claimed he’d made a series of incriminating statements about the murders,
according to Allen’s lawyers.

In one interaction in October 2017, Fields allegedly told his older sister: “I am in a lot of trouble. I am going away for a long time. I was on that trail and that bridge with those girls when they were murdered. There were two other people there with me when it happened. I spit on one of the girls (after they were killed).”

Jacobs also testified, according to the documents, that Fields told her “Abigail is a little troublemaker, [and] that he placed leaves on her and used sticks to give her horns.”


Allen’s team claimed that, once again, law enforcement failed to show even basic curiosity about Fields’ remarks and how he knew apparent details about the crime scene which had never been made public.

“It would be refreshing if someone in Unified Command could stop worrying about how the public will view their incompetence, admit to mistakes, and then perform the type of police work that should have been performed 6 years ago,” reads the memorandum.

“The Defense is not holding its breath.
 
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Okay, I'm in a mood.

The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photographs

^^^ Crime Scene Photos (apparently unauthorized) Leaks ... story above at Murder Sheet.

With all due respect - these MS people give me a headache. I have tried them out. It's always the same thing.
One minute of important info ... they take 33 minutes. They repeat each other over and over and over.
The useful info for each podcast is somewhere around 22 minutes in and takes less time than the commercial.

ON this particular podcast ... you don't need to waste your time. I wasted mine for y'all:.

here's the newest poop:

Someone leaked some of this case's crime scene photos. Now they're all over the internets.

Murder Sheet is too uppity to participate in spreading leaked photos. Shame shame shame on everyone else, and while MS is shaming its listeners, MS take this opportunity to tell me, and their listeners, to stop being ... jerks ....

MS wants me to be nice?
They don't know me.
Who do they think they are? LOL.

(Agree that MS did good by not sharing. And yes, it's devastating for the families of A&L and disrespectful to those innocent girls. But why tell me what I already know ... for 26 minutes? Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants an award for not showing crime scene photos.)

After they received the photos, MS (apparently) did not immediately turn photos into LE. Why did they take their sweet time? Because they weren't able to confirm they were real. At some point a "friend" delivered them same photos, while providing some deep intel (text screen shots) as to who leaked the photos. The friend was chicken to go to LE and asked MS to do so.

The motive of the leak? MS suggests, as they refuse to describe the leaked photos of the crime scene, that the photos might support the defense? Not sure how. MS didn't say. Maybe the "staging" theory part? (Just really weak on crime scene photos and very strong on shaming any one in the MS audience that thinks they should get to look at crime scene photos. Shame shame shame shame on all of you you you you.)

So they turned the photos into Indiana LE.
And LE said thank you.
(Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants another award for doing the right thing by ringing up LE).

(By then, the photos were all over the internet. But still. MS did the right thing. Which, apparently, involved doxing the Leaker to LE.)


No one knows how he Leaky Guy got the photos.
BUT ...
Leaky Guy has a FB!
And, MS "investigated" the hell out of it. Screenshot it. And stuff. So they could find out how Leaky Guy might have gotten the photos. (Like LE wasn't on it already?)

MS found out (gasp!) that a dude that might work or did work maybe sometime at one of the law firms of one of RA's attorneys ... was on Leaky Guy's FB.
MS is terribly excited about that and somehow concludes that the leak was from RA's attorneys.

(Now, this is a stretch. There's 6000 people in Delhi, right? Probably 1/4 of them on FB? What are the odds another Delhi person's on your Delhi FB? Like 33% ? Nevertheless...)

MS surmises - based on their sleuthing on Leaky Guy's FB intel - that the leak is from the Defense side. (REALLY???!!)
And MS has decided that the defense team is in huge trouble and RA's attorneys the Judge could easily throw them off the case. (That is patently absurd.)
And ... MS believes that the upcoming hearings are 100% about the leaks. (huh?)

Oh.
One more thing.

The Leaky Guy that allegedly leaked the crime photos?
That Leaky Guy MS blew into LE about 5 days ago ... Oh. By the way.
He committed suicide 2 days ago. :eek:

IMO, MS snuck that doozy in there ... just as if that's not the entire reason why they made a podcast about the leaks.

Meanwhile, MS spends the remaining 28 minutes shaming anyone who might have seen a leaked crime scene photo out there on the internets and chastises their viewers to delete it and not share it. B/C MS would never share such a thing b/c they respect victims' privacy.

If ya wanna listen to pretzel logic shaming on fire ... with a suicide packed in, have at it.

Otherwise don't bother. You've just read the 3 minute scoop.

The other 30 minutes of irrelevant stuff MS bangs on and lectures about are irrelevant and a complete waste of time.
 
Okay, I'm in a mood.

The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photographs

^^^ Crime Scene Photos (apparently unauthorized) Leaks ... story above at Murder Sheet.

With all due respect - these MS people give me a headache. I have tried them out. It's always the same thing.
One minute of important info ... they take 33 minutes. They repeat each other over and over and over.
The useful info for each podcast is somewhere around 22 minutes in and takes less time than the commercial.

ON this particular podcast ... you don't need to waste your time. I wasted mine for y'all:.

here's the newest poop:

Someone leaked some of this case's crime scene photos. Now they're all over the internets.

Murder Sheet is too uppity to participate in spreading leaked photos. Shame shame shame on everyone else, and while MS is shaming its listeners, MS take this opportunity to tell me, and their listeners, to stop being ... jerks ....

MS wants me to be nice?
They don't know me.
Who do they think they are? LOL.

(Agree that MS did good by not sharing. And yes, it's devastating for the families of A&L and disrespectful to those innocent girls. But why tell me what I already know ... for 26 minutes? Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants an award for not showing crime scene photos.)

After they received the photos, MS (apparently) did not immediately turn photos into LE. Why did they take their sweet time? Because they weren't able to confirm they were real. At some point a "friend" delivered them same photos, while providing some deep intel (text screen shots) as to who leaked the photos. The friend was chicken to go to LE and asked MS to do so.

The motive of the leak? MS suggests, as they refuse to describe the leaked photos of the crime scene, that the photos might support the defense? Not sure how. MS didn't say. Maybe the "staging" theory part? (Just really weak on crime scene photos and very strong on shaming any one in the MS audience that thinks they should get to look at crime scene photos. Shame shame shame shame on all of you you you you.)

So they turned the photos into Indiana LE.
And LE said thank you.
(Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants another award for doing the right thing by ringing up LE).

(By then, the photos were all over the internet. But still. MS did the right thing. Which, apparently, involved doxing the Leaker to LE.)


No one knows how he Leaky Guy got the photos.
BUT ...
Leaky Guy has a FB!
And, MS "investigated" the hell out of it. Screenshot it. And stuff. So they could find out how Leaky Guy might have gotten the photos. (Like LE wasn't on it already?)

MS found out (gasp!) that a dude that might work or did work maybe sometime at one of the law firms of one of RA's attorneys ... was on Leaky Guy's FB.
MS is terribly excited about that and somehow concludes that the leak was from RA's attorneys.

(Now, this is a stretch. There's 6000 people in Delhi, right? Probably 1/4 of them on FB? What are the odds another Delhi person's on your Delhi FB? Like 33% ? Nevertheless...)

MS surmises - based on their sleuthing on Leaky Guy's FB intel - that the leak is from the Defense side. (REALLY???!!)
And MS has decided that the defense team is in huge trouble and RA's attorneys the Judge could easily throw them off the case. (That is patently absurd.)
And ... MS believes that the upcoming hearings are 100% about the leaks. (huh?)

Oh.
One more thing.

The Leaky Guy that allegedly leaked the crime photos?
That Leaky Guy MS blew into LE about 5 days ago ... Oh. By the way.
He committed suicide 2 days ago. :eek:

IMO, MS snuck that doozy in there ... just as if that's not the entire reason why they made a podcast about the leaks.

Meanwhile, MS spends the remaining 28 minutes shaming anyone who might have seen a leaked crime scene photo out there on the internets and chastises their viewers to delete it and not share it. B/C MS would never share such a thing b/c they respect victims' privacy.

If ya wanna listen to pretzel logic shaming on fire ... with a suicide packed in, have at it.

Otherwise don't bother. You've just read the 3 minute scoop.

The other 30 minutes of irrelevant stuff MS bangs on and lectures about are irrelevant and a complete waste of time.
Thanks for watching so we don't have to. I find this a lot with videos, usually because they are monetized so longer videos get more money.
 
Okay, I'm in a mood.

The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photographs

^^^ Crime Scene Photos (apparently unauthorized) Leaks ... story above at Murder Sheet.

With all due respect - these MS people give me a headache. I have tried them out. It's always the same thing.
One minute of important info ... they take 33 minutes. They repeat each other over and over and over.
The useful info for each podcast is somewhere around 22 minutes in and takes less time than the commercial.

ON this particular podcast ... you don't need to waste your time. I wasted mine for y'all:.

here's the newest poop:

Someone leaked some of this case's crime scene photos. Now they're all over the internets.

Murder Sheet is too uppity to participate in spreading leaked photos. Shame shame shame on everyone else, and while MS is shaming its listeners, MS take this opportunity to tell me, and their listeners, to stop being ... jerks ....

MS wants me to be nice?
They don't know me.
Who do they think they are? LOL.

(Agree that MS did good by not sharing. And yes, it's devastating for the families of A&L and disrespectful to those innocent girls. But why tell me what I already know ... for 26 minutes? Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants an award for not showing crime scene photos.)

After they received the photos, MS (apparently) did not immediately turn photos into LE. Why did they take their sweet time? Because they weren't able to confirm they were real. At some point a "friend" delivered them same photos, while providing some deep intel (text screen shots) as to who leaked the photos. The friend was chicken to go to LE and asked MS to do so.

The motive of the leak? MS suggests, as they refuse to describe the leaked photos of the crime scene, that the photos might support the defense? Not sure how. MS didn't say. Maybe the "staging" theory part? (Just really weak on crime scene photos and very strong on shaming any one in the MS audience that thinks they should get to look at crime scene photos. Shame shame shame shame on all of you you you you.)

So they turned the photos into Indiana LE.
And LE said thank you.
(Also, I'm pretty sure MS wants another award for doing the right thing by ringing up LE).

(By then, the photos were all over the internet. But still. MS did the right thing. Which, apparently, involved doxing the Leaker to LE.)


No one knows how he Leaky Guy got the photos.
BUT ...
Leaky Guy has a FB!
And, MS "investigated" the hell out of it. Screenshot it. And stuff. So they could find out how Leaky Guy might have gotten the photos. (Like LE wasn't on it already?)

MS found out (gasp!) that a dude that might work or did work maybe sometime at one of the law firms of one of RA's attorneys ... was on Leaky Guy's FB.
MS is terribly excited about that and somehow concludes that the leak was from RA's attorneys.

(Now, this is a stretch. There's 6000 people in Delhi, right? Probably 1/4 of them on FB? What are the odds another Delhi person's on your Delhi FB? Like 33% ? Nevertheless...)

MS surmises - based on their sleuthing on Leaky Guy's FB intel - that the leak is from the Defense side. (REALLY???!!)
And MS has decided that the defense team is in huge trouble and RA's attorneys the Judge could easily throw them off the case. (That is patently absurd.)
And ... MS believes that the upcoming hearings are 100% about the leaks. (huh?)

Oh.
One more thing.

The Leaky Guy that allegedly leaked the crime photos?
That Leaky Guy MS blew into LE about 5 days ago ... Oh. By the way.
He committed suicide 2 days ago. :eek:

IMO, MS snuck that doozy in there ... just as if that's not the entire reason why they made a podcast about the leaks.

Meanwhile, MS spends the remaining 28 minutes shaming anyone who might have seen a leaked crime scene photo out there on the internets and chastises their viewers to delete it and not share it. B/C MS would never share such a thing b/c they respect victims' privacy.

If ya wanna listen to pretzel logic shaming on fire ... with a suicide packed in, have at it.

Otherwise don't bother. You've just read the 3 minute scoop.

The other 30 minutes of irrelevant stuff MS bangs on and lectures about are irrelevant and a complete waste of time.
And your summary is why I don’t go there. :)
 
EXACTLY. Agree on all except for that a lot of people are into white nationalist stuff. I don't agree on that.

I will say this white nationalist stuff imo is way overblown however the more something is made out of it the more naive types will join it or think they want to "be one" but I doubt most even then and the few that do, it doesn't mean they are practicing anything or running around planning murders of white teens. And then tormenting a local white "pharmacist".

I'd like to remind all he is more like a store clerk. He is no pharmacist.

He's not a pharmacist he's a Pharmacy Tech, there's a BIG difference.
 
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And your summary is why I don’t go there. :)
yeah, my summary was just terrible. lol. Almost as bad as the podcasts. I'm sorry.

With a few hours away from that stupid podcast, it occurred to me that ... if MS turned in the Leaker to LE ... then ....

did MS just became a witness in this case?

And that might be the whole reason for that podcast. I mean, what was the purpose of telling their audience they doxed and blew in the leaker to LE last week and oops 2 days ago the leaker committed suicide?

Not only did they inform LE, they informed the Defense themselves, (which, in retrospect, I find as very odd).

Here's the timeline described:

During the podcast, MS laid out a social media caper timeline:
crime-scene-photo leak - quickly spreads to podcasters and social media - MS responsible podcast holds back - a mole reaches out - text screens are shot - leaker is ID'd - "research" on FB is performed - LE is informed by MS - Defense is informed by MS - and in the end - the leaker's suicide ...
all related to the Delhi case.

One more Question:
How do Crime Scene Photos out in the Public prejudice the case?

(Bad for LE investigations ongoing. Bad for victims/family. But how's it bad for Defense/Prosecution?)
 
yeah, my summary was just terrible. lol. Almost as bad as the podcasts. I'm sorry.

With a few hours away from that stupid podcast, it occurred to me that ... if MS turned in the Leaker to LE ... then ....

did MS just became a witness in this case?

And that might be the whole reason for that podcast. I mean, what was the purpose of telling their audience they doxed and blew in the leaker to LE last week and oops 2 days ago the leaker committed suicide?

Not only did they inform LE, they informed the Defense themselves, (which, in retrospect, I find as very odd).

Here's the timeline described:

During the podcast, MS laid out a social media caper timeline:
crime-scene-photo leak - quickly spreads to podcasters and social media - MS responsible podcast holds back - a mole reaches out - text screens are shot - leaker is ID'd - "research" on FB is performed - LE is informed by MS - Defense is informed by MS - and in the end - the leaker's suicide ...
all related to the Delhi case.

One more Question:
How do Crime Scene Photos out in the Public prejudice the case?

(Bad for LE investigations ongoing. Bad for victims/family. But how's it bad for Defense/Prosecution?)

As for how bad is it for the attorneys on both sides, it gives the defense a boost IF there is anything that supports their theory. It helps the prosecution if it shows something solid to convict

The person who talked to police about the Facebook stuff was given a polygraph to see if they were telling the truth about what they said. They passed. That can't be used in court, but it does heighten my hinky meter significantly.
 
These are the patches the guards wore:

View attachment 20430
As others have mentioned here already, the valknut (three triangle symbol) has been appropriated by white supremacists. It and other Norse symbols are commonly appropriated. I find it far more likely that they are white supremacists...than somebody made a sacrifice for an ancient religion.

Odinism or Asatru is a religious sect that attempts to revive ancient Norse religious beliefs and practices of pre-Christian Europe. Asatru is not, in itself, a racist religion, though some white supremacists consider themselves Asatruists. Other white supremacists have adopted a more explicitly racial form of Asatru that is most frequently termed Odinism (sometimes Wotanism).

Odinism is a term frequently given to a racist variant of the Norse pagan religion known as Asatru. Asatru is a religious sect that attempts to revive ancient Norse religious beliefs and practices of pre-Christian Europe. Asatru is not in itself a racist religion, though some white supremacists consider themselves Asatruists. Odinism is sometimes referred to as Wotanism. It tends to be popular among white supremacist inmates.
 
As for how bad is it for the attorneys on both sides, it gives the defense a boost IF there is anything that supports their theory. It helps the prosecution if it shows something solid to convict

The person who talked to police about the Facebook stuff was given a polygraph to see if they were telling the truth about what they said. They passed. That can't be used in court, but it does heighten my hinky meter significantly.
Heightens your hinky meter with who? Wouldn't failing a poly heighten it rather than passing a poly? Not following.
 
Posted 24 hours ago. It's CourtTv's look at the Odinism connection:



As others have mentioned here already, the valknut (three triangle symbol) has been appropriated by white supremacists. It and other Norse symbols are commonly appropriated. I find it far more likely that they are white supremacists...than somebody made a sacrifice for an ancient religion.

Odinism or Asatru is a religious sect that attempts to revive ancient Norse religious beliefs and practices of pre-Christian Europe. Asatru is not, in itself, a racist religion, though some white supremacists consider themselves Asatruists. Other white supremacists have adopted a more explicitly racial form of Asatru that is most frequently termed Odinism (sometimes Wotanism).

Odinism is a term frequently given to a racist variant of the Norse pagan religion known as Asatru. Asatru is a religious sect that attempts to revive ancient Norse religious beliefs and practices of pre-Christian Europe. Asatru is not in itself a racist religion, though some white supremacists consider themselves Asatruists. Odinism is sometimes referred to as Wotanism. It tends to be popular among white supremacist inmates.

Heightens your hinky meter with who? Wouldn't failing a poly heighten it rather than passing a poly? Not following.

If either of you haven't watched the CourtTV look at this, I highly suggest you do. @GrandmaBear The CourtTV piece will answer your question.
 
Is that supposed to be the US flag on that badge?

MS isn't my fave but I have watched them. I guess I don't hate or like them significantly in either direction. They are a bit different. He is a lawyer. They have done a lot on Delphi and Kline and so on.

I'm not up on any of this, haven't read anything nor seen anything except just now here with @Olenna 's summary.

So if they didn't want them or to share them how did the MS get them leaked to them? I guess my bigger question is WHO and WHERE were they leaked to initially? Did leaker send them to a bunch of podcasters and news outlets or only to one or something?

So leaker worked for one of the defense attys at some point in time? Not good imo. Looks bad at least. And MS turns guy in, outs him to LE and the pics and also does so with the defense for some reason? I suppose maybe they figured the photos only could have come from either side somehow.

So MS turns him in and then at some point leaker goes into LE himself you are saying? Why to come clean or did they haul him in, call him in? And then some time after this he commits suicide?? WHAT?? Do the MS couple feel their turning him in added cause to pressure he felt in committing suicide? So odd.

With all due respect Olenna I think RA's attys could certainly end up in hot water or even be taken off the case IF they had anything to do with this. I'm no expert on how that all works and I don't think there is a gag order any longer or sealed case (but judge did seal their outrageous filing too late of course as defense ensured it went public first) so maybe not BUT they are really walking a fine line if not even crossing it if you ask me. They have flat out named and accused other people in their filing. They go on about no DNA of Allen, no phone records, no computer stuff, etc. BUT they don't HAVE a bullet casing or ANYTHING on these men they NAMED and said did it. They gave details on the girls deaths and crime scene photos in that as I understand it (I never had the chance to read or look past the first pages. Now perhaps this all was against no rules, they were likely free to do so, but I"m not sure of that. There are a couple of good atty YTers that I imagine will do a show on this that I'm going to have to find time to watch as they will answer these things. STS would be another with attys. commonly on.

I'll end with this--maybe it isn't odd for a defense atty to be friends with leaker on FB if all from Delphi (not sure they are actually, the attys, are they?) but defense on other hand would have everyone believe every Odinist in the area and surrounding area are friends because of lesser things or same things and they can't have it both ways which is the game they play.

They claim RA is no O but how do we know that? Etc. He is a beer drinking, white, midwest guy with guns who hunts, etc., isn't that one of the cliche types of white nationalists that all assume are, could be, would be, etc. along with people like Barry Morphew and of course the southerner ones too. I disagree but just saying that's what the defense is using/doing... BUT Allen isn't one, didn't want to be, etc.

Anyhow, to get back to more on topic,

It isn't much of a leap for me or I'd think almost anyone to believe the defense was behind this. THEY recently shared pics never before shared. ANd details. and there is some purported connection here of this guy to at least one of them. I come from a home city of 8,000 people and YES it is a city, not town. And let me tell you there are TONS of that 8,000 that I don't know, never did, never would, etc.

I'm also going to say this, if defense at some point is going to argue venue or where the jury comes from due to publicity well um they are the ones causing such. For all their possible errors and troubles, the prosecution has kept its mouth shut and hasn't shared any more than needed to be filed and so on. I think they deserve credit on that one and even after the big sensational filing and reaction still going on with the defense filing they responded appropriately and much more professionally. I do think they deserve some credit for keeping things on their end out of the public, not speaking, holding a PC or anything.

FINALLY what is the news on the suicide because they'd better make darned sure it really IS ONE...

Olenna, just so you know this isn['t in disagreement with you or anything, I've seen nothing yet and they're just my thoughts which do differ some. It is also my first not that informed take on it all and it will likely change. You and others know more of it than I do thus far so just going off your summary and what is here. Didn't get home that long ago, long day.
 
Is that supposed to be the US flag on that badge?

MS isn't my fave but I have watched them. I guess I don't hate or like them significantly in either direction. They are a bit different. He is a lawyer. They have done a lot on Delphi and Kline and so on.

I'm not up on any of this, haven't read anything nor seen anything except just now here with @Olenna 's summary.

So if they didn't want them or to share them how did the MS get them leaked to them? I guess my bigger question is WHO and WHERE were they leaked to initially? Did leaker send them to a bunch of podcasters and news outlets or only to one or something?

So leaker worked for one of the defense attys at some point in time? Not good imo. Looks bad at least. And MS turns guy in, outs him to LE and the pics and also does so with the defense for some reason? I suppose maybe they figured the photos only could have come from either side somehow.

So MS turns him in and then at some point leaker goes into LE himself you are saying? Why to come clean or did they haul him in, call him in? And then some time after this he commits suicide?? WHAT?? Do the MS couple feel their turning him in added cause to pressure he felt in committing suicide? So odd.

With all due respect Olenna I think RA's attys could certainly end up in hot water or even be taken off the case IF they had anything to do with this. I'm no expert on how that all works and I don't think there is a gag order any longer or sealed case (but judge did seal their outrageous filing too late of course as defense ensured it went public first) so maybe not BUT they are really walking a fine line if not even crossing it if you ask me. They have flat out named and accused other people in their filing. They go on about no DNA of Allen, no phone records, no computer stuff, etc. BUT they don't HAVE a bullet casing or ANYTHING on these men they NAMED and said did it. They gave details on the girls deaths and crime scene photos in that as I understand it (I never had the chance to read or look past the first pages. Now perhaps this all was against no rules, they were likely free to do so, but I"m not sure of that. There are a couple of good atty YTers that I imagine will do a show on this that I'm going to have to find time to watch as they will answer these things. STS would be another with attys. commonly on.

I'll end with this--maybe it isn't odd for a defense atty to be friends with leaker on FB if all from Delphi (not sure they are actually, the attys, are they?) but defense on other hand would have everyone believe every Odinist in the area and surrounding area are friends because of lesser things or same things and they can't have it both ways which is the game they play.

They claim RA is no O but how do we know that? Etc. He is a beer drinking, white, midwest guy with guns who hunts, etc., isn't that one of the cliche types of white nationalists that all assume are, could be, would be, etc. along with people like Barry Morphew and of course the southerner ones too. I disagree but just saying that's what the defense is using/doing... BUT Allen isn't one, didn't want to be, etc.

Anyhow, to get back to more on topic,

It isn't much of a leap for me or I'd think almost anyone to believe the defense was behind this. THEY recently shared pics never before shared. ANd details. and there is some purported connection here of this guy to at least one of them. I come from a home city of 8,000 people and YES it is a city, not town. And let me tell you there are TONS of that 8,000 that I don't know, never did, never would, etc.

I'm also going to say this, if defense at some point is going to argue venue or where the jury comes from due to publicity well um they are the ones causing such. For all their possible errors and troubles, the prosecution has kept its mouth shut and hasn't shared any more than needed to be filed and so on. I think they deserve credit on that one and even after the big sensational filing and reaction still going on with the defense filing they responded appropriately and much more professionally. I do think they deserve some credit for keeping things on their end out of the public, not speaking, holding a PC or anything.

FINALLY what is the news on the suicide because they'd better make darned sure it really IS ONE...

Olenna, just so you know this isn['t in disagreement with you or anything, I've seen nothing yet and they're just my thoughts which do differ some. It is also my first not that informed take on it all and it will likely change. You and others know more of it than I do thus far so just going off your summary and what is here. Didn't get home that long ago, long day.
If you have time, @GrandmaBear , read the link I just posted above. - a Fox News article - covering the MS podcast subject of the leaker that committed suicide b/c Murder Sheet blew him into investigators. O M G. :panic:

JMHO:
I think MS tipped the press - attempting to blow in the defense. I'm NEVER listening to them again.
They're stanky; I knew it the first time I heard them.
:nope:
 
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/indiana-state-police-reportedly-investigating-evidence-leak-in-delphi-murder-case/

Okay, I was right. The latest MS podcast was to break the news b/4 the press broke the news that MS had obtained illicit case evidence from a leaker, reported it to investigators, and when the investigators started working on the leak situation, the leaker committed suicide.

Read this article; it's nuts.

(Phew. After suffering through that MS episode, I thought I was nuts.)

Forgive my ignorance, but what is MS?
 
Is that supposed to be the US flag on that badge?

MS isn't my fave but I have watched them. I guess I don't hate or like them significantly in either direction. They are a bit different. He is a lawyer. They have done a lot on Delphi and Kline and so on.
JMOH WARNING: Yes, they're not my taste; I have no patience. They talk like everyone listening is an idiot. They fill time with nothing and with repetition and it makes me nuts. They WASTE time. Also, they never have anything insightful or intelligent to say, Frankly. They're really uptight and arrogant. I think their "sources" probably hate talking to them. Filling time with nothing for advertising. The ad money means something to them. JMHO.
I'm not up on any of this, haven't read anything nor seen anything except just now here with @Olenna 's summary.

So if they didn't want them or to share them how did the MS get them leaked to them? I guess my bigger question is WHO and WHERE were they leaked to initially? Did leaker send them to a bunch of podcasters and news outlets or only to one or something?
MS has obviously had contact w/ leakers before. They always felt sketchy to me. Little stuff here and there ... but I think they got the crime scene photos and were smart enough to think (a) they are fake, don't discuss ... and when they found out they were real, they (b) realized there was only one place to go with them, and that was LE. Because he's a lawyer. And at least they are that ethical. I think that Grey character could get in some trouble. Hope not to much, b/c I like his diagrams. :D But yeah, he NEVER EVER should have used the crime scene photos he was leaked; but he did.
So leaker worked for one of the defense attys at some point in time? Not good imo. Looks bad at least. And MS turns guy in, outs him to LE and the pics and also does so with the defense for some reason? I suppose maybe they figured the photos only could have come from either side somehow.

So MS turns him in and then at some point leaker goes into LE himself you are saying? Why to come clean or did they haul him in, call him in? And then some time after this he commits suicide?? WHAT?? Do the MS couple feel their turning him in added cause to pressure he felt in committing suicide? So odd.
I know - isn't that nutty. I feel like I was listening to a bad dream.
With all due respect Olenna I think RA's attys could certainly end up in hot water or even be taken off the case IF they had anything to do with this. I'm no expert on how that all works and I don't think there is a gag order any longer or sealed case (but judge did seal their outrageous filing too late of course as defense ensured it went public first) so maybe not BUT they are really walking a fine line if not even crossing it if you ask me. They have flat out named and accused other people in their filing. They go on about no DNA of Allen, no phone records, no computer stuff, etc. BUT they don't HAVE a bullet casing or ANYTHING on these men they NAMED and said did it. They gave details on the girls deaths and crime scene photos in that as I understand it (I never had the chance to read or look past the first pages. Now perhaps this all was against no rules, they were likely free to do so, but I"m not sure of that. There are a couple of good atty YTers that I imagine will do a show on this that I'm going to have to find time to watch as they will answer these things. STS would be another with attys. commonly on.
Fair enough. We shall see. They have witnesses that came forward w/in first weeks - who all heard confessions from the POIs that are "Vanlinders".
I'll end with this--maybe it isn't odd for a defense atty to be friends with leaker on FB if all from Delphi (not sure they are actually, the attys, are they?) but defense on other hand would have everyone believe every Odinist in the area and surrounding area are friends because of lesser things or same things and they can't have it both ways which is the game they play.
They were leaking only crime scene photos. Who knows why?
They claim RA is no O but how do we know that? Etc. He is a beer drinking, white, midwest guy with guns who hunts, etc., isn't that one of the cliche types of white nationalists that all assume are, could be, would be, etc. along with people like Barry Morphew and of course the southerner ones too. I disagree but just saying that's what the defense is using/doing... BUT Allen isn't one, didn't want to be, etc.

Anyhow, to get back to more on topic,

It isn't much of a leap for me or I'd think almost anyone to believe the defense was behind this. THEY recently shared pics never before shared. ANd details. and there is some purported connection here of this guy to at least one of them. I come from a home city of 8,000 people and YES it is a city, not town. And let me tell you there are TONS of that 8,000 that I don't know, never did, never would, etc.
Maybe not the Defense, so No,
but Yes - it's someone that used to work in the offices of one of the Attorneys. But wasn't working there anymore. But was leaking, somehow. And then offed themselves. And it looks like the dead leaker knew about the prior leak and intentionally leaked anyway.

FINALLY what is the news on the suicide because they'd better make darned sure it really IS ONE...
THERE WAS A SUICIDE!!
Olenna, just so you know this isn['t in disagreement with you or anything, I've seen nothing yet and they're just my thoughts which do differ some. It is also my first not that informed take on it all and it will likely change. You and others know more of it than I do thus far so just going off your summary and what is here. Didn't get home that long ago, long day.
this is very fair, dear @GrandmaBear

forgive me, I'm still in a mood. :angry:
 

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